Yo students - AUT strike action

[Ste]

Originally Posted by meglamaniac

As I said: to hold off action until the start of the new academic year.

This has been building up over the last couple of years.
When I was at uni there were threats that our coursework wouldn't get marked but they held off until the beginning of this current academic year.
They've been saying for ages that they won't mark the work, it's not like it's a sudden suprise or anything.

[furball]

The most amusing thing is that when top-up fees were brought in, the AUT was told that a third of the fees would go towards an increase in lecturers' pay.

Guess what. Universities UK reneged on their promise and refused to give lecturers any access to the extra money coming in. No wonder the AUT is pissed off and is now striking.

Folding now would be an incredibly bad idea and would destroy the notion of a strike. The AUT are going to have to play hard-ball, even if it hurts students. Striking during normal term-time just doesn't have enough of an effect - the strike needs to paralyse the universities in order for Universities UK to be forced back to the table.

12.6% over 3 years is a basic inflationary rise which takes no account of how lecturers' pay has been frozen for the last few decases.

This is an amusing article.

[JC]

I havent had chance to read the whole thread yet but thought i'd add my bit.

It was agreed by all the VCs that top-up fees would be introduced to allow lecturers to be payed more. Top-up fees are about to start yet there is no sign of any pay rise for lecturers, which means all the VCs have gone back on their agreement. That is why a hell of a lot of people are extremely pissed off. This isnt helped by the fact that VCs have given themselves on average a 30-something% pay rise over the last few years (i think the average VC is on about £170k now) compared to your average lecturer who gets a pay rise pretty much equal to inflation.

Lecturers are a weird situation though. We know they don't do it for the money because they can earn so much more in a different field (typically). If they do want more money they can publish more.

Publishing papers does now get you a larger salary. You could publish a few papers in Nature, it would get you more funding for your research but it wouldnt get you a pay rise.

The unfortunate situation is that striking at the beginning of the year would have no effect at all. Work doesnt need to be marked then, exams dont have to be sat and degrees dont have to be awarded so the VCs wouldnt be forced into a situation were they seriously have to think about a pay rise. This started months ago and it was made clear it would continue and affect the awarding of degrees if a solution wasnt found but instead VCs decided to ignore it. I feel sorry for any students in this mess (my brother is in his 3rd year too), i'd be mightily pissed off if it was me but this is pretty much the only option lecturers had and i think its only fair they are payed more once top-up fees start.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

We are not 'falling behind' anyone.

The quality of our academics is not in question. We are huge education 'exporter' this is because of the calibre of our academics.

The point here is that we do not pay them properly.

This is short sighted because at the moment we have something excellent (something which is recognised globally as excellent) and we shouldn't lose it simply because we can not be arsed to pay academics properly. Or because people like yourself are too stupid to understand the issues.

When I said falling behind I didnt mean we didnt have the academics coming through the UK system, just that places like the big American Uni's are able to attract them more due to the close to bottemless pit of funds they have.

And Yahwe people whom have a differnt point of view arent stupid, you and others make alot of good points and I'm not against people getting paid what they deserve if the budget allows for it but you cant just throw money at all these public sector workers whenever they ask as the moneys simply not there to cover it. We ask students in this country to pay £3k to attend Oxbridge, to attend a top uni in the states such as Harvard your looking at £16k ($30k a year and thats before the $13k extra they charge for health and student services, the toom and board.). Thats obviously a fair amount more than even international students pay here and alone makes paying lectuers what they are worth alot easier.

[The_Fish]

Lecturers don't have a particularly tough life, and they do make a fair amount of money. I have no sympathy for them.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by The_Fish

Lecturers don't have a particularly tough life, and they do make a fair amount of money. I have no sympathy for them.

They're not asking for your sympathy. They're asking for your money.

[furball]

Originally Posted by JC

This isnt helped by the fact that VCs have given themselves on average a 30-something% pay rise over the last few years (i think the average VC is on about £170k now) compared to your average lecturer who gets a pay rise pretty much equal to inflation.

Cardiff's VC is on £205k per year.

Tony Blair gets £170k per year.

The average lecturer earns £24k per year.


Can anyone spot the disparity? The Cardiff VC got a rise of 40% over 3 years. Over the last 20 years, lecturers have got little to no pay rises at all.

[furball]

Originally Posted by The_Fish

Lecturers don't have a particularly tough life, and they do make a fair amount of money. I have no sympathy for them.

Actually, your basic lecturer has a very difficult life. They have to prepare and give the majority of lectures and administer most of the tutorials. They have to mark most of the students' work associated with this. They have little time to write papers, but the only way they'll get promotions is by writing the papers in the spare time that they don't have.

In contrast, Professors have considerably less interaction with students, giving them lots of time to write papers. Helpfully they also don't have the same problems with pay, meaning that in the recent disputes, they haven't been particularly inclined to support their lecturers against the Universities - no wonder the unions have been forced to strike.

[The_Fish]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

They're not asking for your sympathy. They're asking for your money.

I'd rather my money was spent on other things like better pc's than giving the lecturers a ridiculous 15% rise or whatever they are after

[furball]

Originally Posted by The_Fish

I'd rather my money was spent on other things like better pc's than giving the lecturers a ridiculous 15% rise or whatever they are after

Don't be retarded.


Lecturers don't earn especially much and their pay hasn't gone up for years. Lecturing used to be a very respected profession, but its neglect for the last twenty years has turned it into a joke.

The latest offer to them is 12.6% over 3 years - 4.2% per year. This might correct things for the last 5 years but it doesn't remedy the last 20-30 years of frozen pay.

They're after 25%, which would remedy the problems with pay of the last 8-10 years. It still wouldn't reflect the former status of lecturers, but it would help to redress the balance.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by The_Fish

I'd rather my money was spent on other things like better pc's than giving the lecturers a ridiculous 15% rise or whatever they are after

If you want a degree off a computer I'll start selling them to you. I can do modern history, english literature and how to drink thirty pints of guinness without dying.

[Squints]

Aint seen any facts regarding this, but i've heard from a lecturer that AUT has got it's way at the majority of unis with a few exceptions, mine being one of them (University of Wales Newport).

Wether they've got a pay rise or just agreed not to shaft everybody for the moment i don't know, but it sounds like some Unis might still have a strike on their hands come assements/exams.

But as i said this is just hear say.

How legal is the AUT threat?

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Squints

How legal is the AUT threat?

What, do you mean can we send the police in to beat the shit out of them if they strike and make them mark papers at gunpoint?

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Squints

How legal is the AUT threat?

Ever heard of a trade union?

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Ever heard of a trade union?

That's commie talk!

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

That's commie talk!

It is my firm belief, sir, that before this century is out we will see a political party form a government, in the united kingdom, that claims to represent the working man.

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by wakey

When I said falling behind I didnt mean we didnt have the academics coming through the UK system, just that places like the big American Uni's are able to attract them more due to the close to bottemless pit of funds they have.

And Yahwe people whom have a differnt point of view arent stupid

We are still managing to compete with America due to several factors.

Clearly we should increase the pay.

You do not seem to understand the issues or actually have an argument. If you are trying to say that Britain as a country can not afford to maintain it's world class (world leading) universities then you are simply ignorant.

People who disagree with my opinion are not stupid. People who think they are arguing against me when in fact all they are doing is typing a lot of illogical and ill-informed nonsense are stupid (especially when they miss-use 'whom' just to try and look clever)

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by wakey

And Yahwe people whom have a differnt point of view arent stupid

:laffo:

[Alki]

there may be a possibility of our exams in York not being marked according to my supervisor. Hope it doesnt happen, my coursework marks were shit and ive put in loads of work for my exams

[JC]

I'm not sure if this is happening nationally or just at at Leicester but the VC here is planning on cutting all lecturers pay by 20% if they continue to strike. My supervisor is planning on taking legal action if it happens as he says that marking of exams etc does not take up 20% of his time

[Squints]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Ever heard of a trade union?

Yes i have.

I know that the whole concept of a strike is to withhold a service to force another party into action. If it was a manufacturing firm fair enough, the number of people left out in the cold would be negligable.

But with this threatened action they are not just stopping a manufacturing process, they are potentially screwing with a lot of peoples degrees. Obviously as a student it effects me and eveyone knows it's not nice to be given the shitty end of the stick.

My question about legality is that can the AUT screw in such an important way with so many peoples lives? Are they opening themselves up to a whole crap load of legal hassle?

As regards to a police riot team storming in a cracking the heads of some of the smug - self satisfied - napoleon coplex riddled lecturers i know i would welcome it, but not for the reason at hand.

Anyway this is all to heavy for a lovely sunny afternoon. It's my birthday today so i'm off to sit in a beer garden get very very pissed.

Good day

[Tomkat]

No proper student goes to lectures anyway, so who cares what the lecturers get paid?!

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by JC

I'm not sure if this is happening nationally or just at at Leicester but the VC here is planning on cutting all lecturers pay by 20% if they continue to strike. My supervisor is planning on taking legal action if it happens as he says that marking of exams etc does not take up 20% of his time

Is that legal?

[JC]

Well the VC has apparently sent round a form he wants all striking lecturers to sign. Presumably they sign away their life and accept any pay cuts that happen. I doubt anyone will sign this. Whether or not he can cut their pay anyway i'm not sure, no doubt the AUT will be looking in to that.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Squints

My question about legality is that can the AUT screw in such an important way with so many peoples lives? Are they opening themselves up to a whole crap load of legal hassle?

I find it hard to believe you got into any sort of a college course to be honest. I'm going to guess computers though, or possibly sports science.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Squints

My question about legality is that can the AUT screw in such an important way with so many peoples lives?

One of the purposes of a strike is to illustrate/reinforce how important the role you are currently undertaking. If almost no-one was affected then there wouldn't be much point. Having said that, no-one is going to die (well, probably) if some exams are marked, and even if it's rather annoying for people it's not like the entire NHS going on strike or similar.

There are examples of legislation designed to penalise workers who strike (witness the threats made against the New York transit workers recently) but fortunately I don't think the UK is quite in such a state. I'm not up to date with labour relations law however.

As regards to a police riot team storming in a cracking the heads of some of the smug - self satisfied - napoleon coplex riddled lecturers i know i would welcome it, but not for the reason at hand.

I don't think you need to worry about your degree being assessed.

[Ragnarak]

I really hopethe one module I have to take is involved so they just don't make be bother doing it. It's in a few weeks though so it's not looking likely

I already missed the other one I was meant to take by being in France for 5 weeks and no one really caring that Chemistry make PhD students take unmeaningful exams.

[Obliterate]

The lecturers at Northumbria University have voted to go on strike indefinitely, as the university is going to stop paying them unless they mark students' work. If this were to happen at all universities, it would be an absolute disaster - surely something will have to be done soon to stop this escalating even further....

[furball]

Originally Posted by Obliterate

The lecturers at Northumbria University have voted to go on strike indefinitely, as the university is going to stop paying them unless they mark students' work. If this were to happen at all universities, it would be an absolute disaster - surely something will have to be done soon to stop this escalating even further....

All because the University decided to dock the pay of a dozen lecturers nice work there.

[meglamaniac]

Well, before anyone goes off at the University for making the problem worse, allow me to remind you that the concept of a strike involves the fact that you are not going to be getting paid while you're striking.

I don't see why this is "omgnews", nor why ALL the staff are walking out at the university's perfectly legitimate decision to withold pay in return for withheld work.

However, the mood is getting increasingly militant and I'd be surprised if I have any exams at all the way things are going. My students union has been opposed to the strike from the start, and is now starting to impress it's views on the NUS nationally. As we're the largest member, that shouldn't take long, meaning that we'll then have the AUT, the University Employers, and the NUS all slagging each other off with local disputes at specific universities as well.
Fantastic.

[edit]
My flatmate reckons the Universities Employer might count as a government body, in which case pay shouldn't be withheld (or something). That makes it different then I guess, but still deserved IMO. The AUT can cover their pay if they think this cause is worth it - that's the job of a union during a strike after all.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by meglamaniac

My flatmate reckons the Universities Employer might count as a government body, in which case pay shouldn't be withheld (or something).

Sadly I don't think this is true. I think T&F said his pay was deducted when he went on strike last.

On the more general point, the point of a strike isn't to necessarily not be paid (although that often happens). Universities don't have to make the situation worse by doing so.

[Ste]

Originally Posted by meglamaniac

I don't see why this is "omgnews", nor why ALL the staff are walking out at the university's perfectly legitimate decision to withold pay in return for withheld work.

Mainly because this isn't a normal strike.
They are still 'working' they just aren't marking exams and dissertations, work that they may usually do in their own time.

Some universities have attempted to dock 20% of their pay as this is more of a reasonable assessment of their work but lecturers at those uni's are saying they don't spend 20% of their time marking so they shouldn't be docked 20% pay.

[furball]

Originally Posted by meglamaniac

My students union has been opposed to the strike from the start, and is now starting to impress it's views on the NUS nationally. As we're the largest member, that shouldn't take long, meaning that we'll then have the AUT, the University Employers, and the NUS all slagging each other off with local disputes at specific universities as well.
Fantastic.

Actually the NUS has been opposed to any action by the AUT from the start - short-sightedly as usual. Cardiff's Student Union's Student Council (which I'm part of in return for a free Summer Ball ticket) amended its executive's opposition to the one day walkout back in March, but since resolved to oppose any further action.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Sadly I don't think this is true. I think T&F said his pay was deducted when he went on strike last.

On the more general point, the point of a strike isn't to necessarily not be paid (although that often happens). Universities don't have to make the situation worse by doing so.

You get paid in exchange for doing a job. If you dont do the job, you shoudlnt get paid.

[Phang]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

You get paid in exchange for doing a job. If you dont do the job, you shoudlnt get paid.

by witholding all pay they withold all incentive to work in any form, which is worse for all involved.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

You get paid in exchange for doing a job. If you dont do the job, you shoudlnt get paid.

Well, that's up to the owners / managers involved. My point was that witholding pay might not be in the managers interests in all cases. Remember, you've got to work with these people once they've returned to work - throwing them (potentially) into financial hardship isn't actually in your interests a lot of the time.

Also, pay isn't a direct exchange for labour in most cases, it's slightly more complicated/abstracted than that. You're paid under a contract which stipulates you work. But there could be ocassions where I couldn't do my job (e.g. the building I work in burns down, the network crashes, etc) where I'd still expect to be paid.

[Yahwe]

i remember the match girls.

[Ste]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

You get paid in exchange for doing a job. If you dont do the job, you shoudlnt get paid.

they're doing 95% of their job, why should they lose all their pay?

[Stew]

Originally Posted by Ste

they're doing 95% of their job, why should they lose all their pay?

I think you answer your own question.

[midge5]

Originally Posted by Ste

they're doing 95% of their job, why should they lose all their pay?

I would say they are doing less than that, and the fact that to me the examination and coursework marking is probably the most important part of the job (afterall, no point in suffering through lectures all year if you have nothing to show for it at the end) would probably justify that.

[Phang]

all the people saying they shouldnt strike or demand more pay or form trade unions, and all the people saying this is as important as nurses, the fire brigade or whatever striking have firmly convinced me that you're all complete wankers and terrible human beings.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Phang

all the people saying they shouldnt strike or demand more pay or form trade unions, and all the people saying this is as important as nurses, the fire brigade or whatever striking have firmly convinced me that you're all complete wankers and terrible human beings.

You're getting more and more bizarre recently.

[eJohn]

it affects me, but im strangely not bothered. Theres not really anything i can do to change it, so im not going to bother worrying about it. I still support the lecturers though, ive seen how much work they do.

[Phang]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

You're getting more and more bizarre recently.

there's an important caveat which i didn't make clear which was that when i said "all of you" i meant "everyone complaining that the lecturers are complaining"

[meglamaniac]

Originally Posted by eJohn

it affects me, but im strangely not bothered. Theres not really anything i can do to change it, so im not going to bother worrying about it. I still support the lecturers though, ive seen how much work they do.

ITT, the increasing problem of student apathy is drawn to our attention

[eJohn]

Apathy in general and apathy towards my uni. I'm not going to go to graduation, nor do i want my name on the alumni list, because i dont believe my uni has really dont anything for me. Universities are now profit making companies rather than education factories.

However, i have been helped greatly and influenced tremendously by my lecturers, some of whom work 14 hour days, doing secretarial work as well as research and teaching. Academics are pretty much the best people around in my opinion, and its pretty horrible they arent treated as such. The Vice Chancellors of the Universities earn six figures a year, which is quite unbelievably greedy.

But at the same time, i refuse to have anything to do with the NUS, who come off as incompetent, horn-tooting children to me. "i like teh uni because teh uni is good but the bad men are bad". Oh, ****, off. Im not going to go on a march or sign a petition like an idiot because im pretty confident thats not how im going to stop the relentless march of market capitalism's cost cutting measures.

[Hicks]

Originally Posted by The_Fish

I'd rather my money was spent on other things like better pc's than giving the lecturers a ridiculous 15% rise or whatever they are after

Good PCs make world class universities !

[lokken]

Originally Posted by Hicks

Good PCs make world class universities !

Actually if he was at some universities, he'd have a point. When I started, the university library at Leicester was pretty much at saturation point for PC demand. By the time I finished uni it was pretty much unworkable, as it was obvious the university had too many students and hadn't accomodated for them. Admittedly they are planning to expand, but it's a bit late from my point of view.

On topic now.

Should lecturers get a pay rise? If we want to keep world class institutions, almost definitely. Academics unless they've had a professional career before coming to university are generally not that well off when it's obvious they should make a comfortable living. While I sympathise with those who are affected, it seems to me that you need more than lecturers to achieve it. Lecturers would do not do this to their students unless they felt this was the only way for them to get what they badly need. The fact that even this step isn't working, says it all.

I'm shocked that people (fees aside) haven't even tried to discourage people from spending at university institutions and tried to force the universities hands, as right now while they are making money they're in a position to stand firm. If a strike won't budge them, marches certainly won't. The fact is the sooner this dispute is over, the sooner all students can get their marks and really, students should start supporting their lecturers in finishing this problem once and for all
because by siding with the institutions, things will just grind to a halt.

Quite frankly I think the universities are being incredibly mean spirited considering there is a national interest in keeping our academics in the UK or in academia at all and their overwhelming desire to make ridiculous amounts of money off their students. On top of this, students are expected to pay more, yet they refuse a necessary pay rise for the people who teach them.

Also posting in agreement with eJohn re the NUS. Last year the union at Leicester made a protest against top-up fees that was nothing short of pathetic and what I pretty much thought was criminal damage according to what was reported.

[JC]

Originally Posted by lokken

Actually if he was at some universities, he'd have a point. When I started, the university library at Leicester was pretty much at saturation point for PC demand. By the time I finished uni it was pretty much unworkable, as it was obvious the university had too many students and hadn't accomodated for them. Admittedly they are planning to expand, but it's a bit late from my point of view.

They are spending something like £20 million on a new library. I've never even been in the old one.

[lokken]

Originally Posted by JC

They are spending something like £20 million on a new library. I've never even been in the old one.

As a building and study area it is woeful. The concept of natural light is pretty much lost to it.