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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 13:18   #1
meglamaniac
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knee-jerk legislation

Let's face it.
In the wake of this it's inevitable.

The USA got the so-called "patriot" act, although it's about as patriotic as an anarchist, so what will we get?
My immediate thought is "ok, that's the ID card bill through then".

Although if they wheel Clarke out to tell us how he reckons ID cards could have stopped this, there's a real possibility I will explode.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 13:22   #2
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

I can't see too must if I'm honest. there was a number of laws passed here after 9/11 so I can't really see what else they want to do. But yes, if ID cards come up because of this I will be seriously unimpressed.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 13:33   #3
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

They should ban terrorists that would solve some problems no doubt.

I doubt they'll pass much legislation we already have lots of draconian anti terror laws already (We passed after 9/11), ID cards are coming anyway as they're going to cure all the problems in the country and terrorists would think twice about blowing stuff up if they had ID cards.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 13:34   #4
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Without wishing to sound like Yahwe, even if parliament were stupid today (or in the next six months) the Judges etc will be able to take a cooler view of things over the long term. This is not to say that we should be oblivious to people losing their heads, but I won't panic either way.

It's difficult to tell how people will react. After Madrid, Spain rejected more war after all.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 13:35   #5
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Unfortunatly the judges can only go by the letter of the law (i.e. Acts of Parliament), so even if Parliament decides to pass something completely stupid, it would still have to be enforced. If it's clear and not equivocable, then we're pretty screwed.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 13:42   #6
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

ID cards may get more support. But I doubt they'll push through new legislation.
We've already got that one were we can hold prisoners brought in on terrorist charges indefinitely

Anyway we don't seem to be over-reacting as yet.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 13:43   #7
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

ID cards wouldn't really help this. ID cards would make identify fraud far easier, and if anyone seriously wanted to be a terrorist they'd be recruited after already having an ID card and be willing and able to set off a bomb somewhere.

There's no way to stop terrorism short of subjecting everyone in the world to a "mind probe", and even then those in control of it obviously can be corrupted etc..... This is the latest blow in a "he did it first" playground-type argument, which can probably be traced back to the gulf war with Bush Sr, if not further back.

Trying to stop terrorists without seriously restricting liberty will only catch the more stupid terrorists, really. All they're trying to do is add law after law to try and create enough hoops that they trip through one. Of course, lots of "innocent"* people also get caught out, but there's an unwinnable war on an ideal currently in progress, so that's ok.




*obviously there's no such thing as an innocent person, but "non terrorist"
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 14:41   #8
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

How in the hell would ID cards have stopped this from happening?









(yes I know I don't need to tell you people - but if people start using this as a reason to push the ID cards bullshit through then I may go on a murderous rampage myself)
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 14:44   #9
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
How in the hell would ID cards have stopped this from happening?
T&F and his friend made a film as he's said before. The best bit of the whole film is at a dinner party where a member of the chattering classes says (about September 11th) :
"And that was legal immigrants, can you imagine what the illegal immigrants are up to?!"
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 14:49   #10
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

I despair for humanity.

Unfortunately my despair is driven by the stupidity of others, not by the terrorism and violence of others.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 14:58   #11
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

The UK passed more loony legislation after 9/11 than the US did, the patriot act wasnt really that dodgy comparatively. I dont think the aftermath of this is going to be quite so bad - I doubt the government will have the support to go significantly beyond much of the stuff that has passed already, despite the knee-jerk factor. Theres obviously going to be a backlash against immigrants and probably a clampdown on illegals + maybe some immigration policy change, and some of the already proposed legislation will now pass without comment (eg ID cards). I've no idea whether this will increase or decrease opposition to Iraq and other aspects of foreign policy.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 15:06   #12
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

I have a driving license already and they know who I am. An ID card won't change anything for me really, nor for most people with passports and suchlike I wouldn't have thought.

Well, apart from the extra taxes we get to pay! Yay!
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 15:14   #13
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

You arent required to carry a driving license nor are there laws requiring you to show it to people.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 15:15   #14
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Oh ok. But still, if people want to know who you are they can find out!
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 15:18   #15
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Yes they probably can, but they don't need a retina scan to do so.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 15:26   #16
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
nor are there laws requiring you to show it to people.
if a police offer asks to see your license (and you have one), you have 48hrs to turn up at a police station with it (should you not have it on you).
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 15:32   #17
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

off topic, but where could one find this "video"?
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 15:37   #18
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
if a police offer asks to see your license (and you have one), you have 48hrs to turn up at a police station with it (should you not have it on you).
Police officers cant just ask random people for their license however.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 15:49   #19
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Police officers cant just ask random people for their license however.

The current proposed legislation on ID cards does not suggest that people have to carry them, or produce them on demand from a Police Officer.

The legislation will require people to produce them if they want to make use of public services, ie: medical care or benefit claims, which to me is perfectly reasonable.

I object to ID cards on a merely selfish level, the cost, why should I have to pay for something that the Government is imposing on me without my consent, implied or otherwise ?

If they were free and only cost was if you lost it, then the issue as to whether we had them or not would probably be pretty much mute.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 15:52   #20
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Afaik you have to have been involved in an RTA for the police to require production of a driving licence.

As for ID cards, the arguments against are based around the fact that it's one massive, centralised database. Yes there are databases already - credit checks, DVLA, even marketing lists and so on. Yes, plenty of information can be found about you with a little effort.
But that's where the problem lies. At the moment, it takes a lot of time and sifting to get a picture of an individual. Correct authorisation is needed with numerous government bodies. Court orders must be served for production of records from private companies. And so on.
The government is already talking about extending the ID scheme. At the moment they're mainly banging on about the combined ID and passport, but there are plans afoot to integrate it with healthcare, benefits, criminal history checks - the list goes on. And every time another "service" is tied into the card, yet more information about you goes into that one central database.

Even if I wasn't against it for the "big brother" factors, I'd be against it on the basis that the government have been lying ****s. Bollocks will it stop illegal imigration. Bollocks will they need it to work - how many illegal imigrants do you think have national insurance numbers? They take jobs on the side, and get paid under the table. How the hell it's going to stop terrorism I really don't know.
They could at least be honest and say "yes, we'd like to charge you all couple of hundred quid for a card which lets us keep track of your behaviour for the rest of your life" - but of course that is significantly less likely to get support now isn't it.

I've signed up to the pledge against them, and will be signing any other petition too.
Today's public seem far too willing to give away thier remaining liberties like so many lemmings.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 15:53   #21
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
If they were free and only cost was if you lost it, then the issue as to whether we had them or not would probably be pretty much mute.
The word you were looking for was "moot".
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 15:55   #22
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
If they were free and only cost was if you lost it, then the issue as to whether we had them or not would probably be pretty much mute.
That'd be a pretty amazing government iniative which cost absolutley nothing to run.

The government are not stupid particularly, and will not introduce an ID card which costs (the end user) £200 each. So the cost will be hidden in taxation. Even this will be unpopular (since the "ID Department" or whatever will cost £10bn or whatever). So they'll share the costs by making passports require biometric data. Once that's already in place then the ID card scheme will look like it only cost £20 per person or whatever.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 16:02   #23
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

judge where'd you bugger off to?

btw regarding stupid laws etc, i came across this

http://www.swarb.co.uk/c/hl/1993r_brown.html
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 16:06   #24
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

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Originally Posted by meglamaniac
The word you were looking for was "moot".

nope, I knew what I meant "mute" as in silenced not "moot" as in Of no practical importance; irrelevant.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 17:17   #25
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

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Originally Posted by furball
Unfortunatly the judges can only go by the letter of the law (i.e. Acts of Parliament), so even if Parliament decides to pass something completely stupid, it would still have to be enforced. If it's clear and not equivocable, then we're pretty screwed.
heh.

what an awful world we'd live in if this was true.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 17:27   #26
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Afaik you have to have been involved in an RTA for the police to require production of a driving licence.
if you get pulled over by the police for any reason, and not just a Road Traffic Accident, you have to produce a driver's licence. If you cannot produce a licence, they'll do a check on the DVLA DB and ask you to show up at your local Police Station with both parts within a certain time period. If you don't show your licence within the time limit, i'm guessing they'll put a warrant out on you or something (i don't actually know about that last bit, but it sounds plausable)
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 17:47   #27
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

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Originally Posted by Demon Dave
if you get pulled over by the police for any reason, and not just a Road Traffic Accident, you have to produce a driver's licence. If you cannot produce a licence, they'll do a check on the DVLA DB and ask you to show up at your local Police Station with both parts within a certain time period. If you don't show your licence within the time limit, i'm guessing they'll put a warrant out on you or something (i don't actually know about that last bit, but it sounds plausable)
But they can't stop you for no reason. I don't know in this case it's called 'probable cause' but it's definatly something similar.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 17:51   #28
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
But they can't stop you for no reason.
i thought this was obvious?
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 17:58   #29
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon Dave
i thought this was obvious?
Yes, but this is one of the differences between a drivers licence and ID cards. A police officer can just ask you to present your ID card witout a reason.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 18:07   #30
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Yes, but this is one of the differences between a drivers licence and ID cards. A police officer can just ask you to present your ID card witout a reason.
ah yes i see. i wasn't actually trying to get drawn into this argument, just sort of trying to correct megla
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 18:24   #31
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
heh.

what an awful world we'd live in if this was true.
I'm aware that judges have been known to find nifty lines of reasoning to not apply statutes, and that's why I tried to include that in my post. I'd be quite interested to know the other means by which judges do this.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 18:44   #32
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I'm aware that judges have been known to find nifty lines of reasoning to not apply statutes, and that's why I tried to include that in my post. I'd be quite interested to know the other means by which judges do this.
judges get the final say on interpretation. so there's no need to say 'we're not going to apply this statute'

instead you say 'we think in s.1. (2) (a) were it say's black people must die, what parliament intended was to say black people must live'

given the judicial (pepper v hart) on reading hansard, ie. we don't really need to actually see what parliament was saying, we're sure we can manage on our own. i think we're pretty safe.

after all, what can the government do? sack a judge who disagrees with them??? PR ****ing nightmare.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 18:49   #33
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Exclamation Re: knee-jerk legislation

Was Pepper v Hart the case where they charged the granny who ran a student flat for having dope heads under her roof?

'It was so long ago, but it's all coming back to me'
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 18:49   #34
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
judges get the final say on interpretation. so there's no need to say 'we're not going to apply this statute'

instead you say 'we think in s.1. (2) (a) were it say's black people must die, what parliament intended was to say black people must live'

given the judicial (pepper v hart) on reading hansard, ie. we don't really need to actually see what parliament was saying, we're sure we can manage on our own. i think we're pretty safe.

after all, what can the government do? sack a judge who disagrees with them??? PR ****ing nightmare.
Ah, the obvious wanders up to me and slaps me around the face.

Thanks.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 18:52   #35
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Was Pepper v Hart the case where they charged the granny who ran a student flat for having dope heads under her roof?

'It was so long ago, but it's all coming back to me'
No, it's tax appeals. Quite boring I expect, other than that it allows judges, subject to loose conditions, to read Hansard in order to interpret statutes differently where they wish to.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 18:53   #36
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
No, it's tax appeals. Quite boring I expect, other than that it allows judges, subject to loose conditions, to read Hansard in order to interpret statutes differently where they wish to.
they were always 'allowed'

pepper v hart basically says 'you don't have to look at hansard if you don't want to' meaning that politicians can be ignored.

aces
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 19:01   #37
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
given the judicial (pepper v hart) on reading hansard, ie. we don't really need to actually see what parliament was saying, we're sure we can manage on our own.
Could you explain this in English? It sounds quite interesting.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 19:02   #38
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Question Re: knee-jerk legislation

So what case am I thinking of?
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 19:03   #39
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Exclamation Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Could you explain this in English? It sounds quite interesting.
The court does not need to know what the intention was behind the act when it was introduced in Parliament. It merely needs to read the act as it was written.
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 19:30   #40
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Yahwe im somewhat reluctant to ask since everything wrong with british law and the most obscure questions are related to you, but regarding my link

http://www.swarb.co.uk/c/hl/1993r_brown.html

As fas as i can tell (and im led to believe this is correct) granting consent is not considered any form of defence, is this still applicable? (ps some of them there law lords come across as homophobes)
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though ive gone off her now; the way Susanna Reid squirms around on sml is, however, awesome
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Unread 7 Jul 2005, 19:36   #41
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
Yahwe im somewhat reluctant to ask since everything wrong with british law and the most obscure questions are related to you, but regarding my link

http://www.swarb.co.uk/c/hl/1993r_brown.html

As fas as i can tell (and im led to believe this is correct) granting consent is not considered any form of defence, is this still applicable? (ps some of them there law lords come across as homophobes)
firstly you'll notice that there are dissenting speaches

and secondly the brown still stands, but that's more because there haven't been any prosecutions for it (not enough people get others to insert fish hooks into their genitals for pleasure) so with nobody being prosecuted, no one can appeal and brown can't be over turned.

it's very widely held view that brown is wrong, even immediately after it came out. but there is always a difficult question of how much a state let's it's citizens injure each other: pub fights might be consented to by all involved but we still might want to make them illeagal.
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Unread 9 Jul 2005, 16:16   #42
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

Oh, I've just found something that may suggest new anti-terrorist anti-privacy laws that that Europe's interior ministers may try to make.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050708...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl
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Unread 9 Jul 2005, 20:20   #43
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Re: knee-jerk legislation

We don't need more legislation. All we need is more vigilance.

Unfortunately "be more vigilant" really means "avoid dirty arabs".
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