Planetarion Forums - The Norwegian army will not be taking me away

Matrim · 12 Aug 2003, 15:51

I will not spend a year being disciplined by nationalistic drop outs two years older than me. I will not suffer the the sadistic whims of a bitter troop leader who has been arguing with his wife all weekend about his obsession with German WW2 gun systems.

However, unless the state forgets about me or the system is disbanded, I'll have to spend a year working in some kind of social institution for practically no payment at all some time in the far, far future.

Am I wise?

Matrim

wu_trax · 12 Aug 2003, 15:55

join the army, it fun and you can be in there for a few month without any long-term-damage.

Mong · 12 Aug 2003, 16:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
Never work for the army or the police. Ever.

He doesn't have a choice. In Norge you have to either do Army or Civil service.

M.

Marilyn Manson · 12 Aug 2003, 16:09

Why on earth would Norway need a military? Actually, why would it need a police force?

What are the criminals going to steal? Conifers?

Nusselt · 12 Aug 2003, 16:18

just join the civil service then, cant you claim to be a pacifist? or come to britain to study until the time limit on the thing runs out. Practically every student i know from countries (spain, italy, greece etc) that have national service used to try and find some way to stay here it was

but also rather

why cant those faggots get a proper professional army. And i dont think iceland has an army iirc america agreed to defend them but now the cold war is over they see no use in staying there and iceland is scared somone will invade to steal their putrified shark/whales/whatever that they eat.

12 Aug 2003, 16:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
Why on earth would Norway need a military? Actually, why would it need a police force?

What are the criminals going to steal? Conifers?

Voted Mr. "Too funny to survive"

Marilyn Manson · 12 Aug 2003, 16:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
Civil service is fine. Just not army or police.

Why?

W · 12 Aug 2003, 16:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Matrim
I will not spend a year being disciplined by nationalistic drop outs two years older than me. I will not suffer the the sadistic whims of a bitter troop leader who has been arguing with his wife all weekend about his obsession with German WW2 gun systems.

However, unless the state forgets about me or the system is disbanded, I'll have to spend a year working in some kind of social institution for practically no payment at all some time in the far, far future.

Am I wise?

Matrim

No.
Besides, your CO might be younger than you...

Marilyn Manson · 12 Aug 2003, 16:23

Quote:

Originally posted by BarbieKen
Voted Mr. "Too funny to survive"

WHEN-ARE-YOU-GOING-TO-DIE, MR-FAG-O-RAMA?

Marilyn Manson · 12 Aug 2003, 16:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
Well mainly becasue they are thugs hired by the state as agents of oppression, who represent a political elite rather than the best interests of the people.

As opposed to the civil service?

roadrunner_0 · 12 Aug 2003, 16:30

i work in the british civil service by choice
ph33r m3h

Marilyn Manson · 12 Aug 2003, 16:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
The civil service are not thugs, mindless ideologues, and petty beureacrats maybe, but not thugs. And they don't wear uniforms, at least not in my office.

Why does it matter whether or not they use violence, if they are all using their abilities to hold up the same system?

roadrunner_0 · 12 Aug 2003, 16:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
Which department?

I work in the British civil service cos I need the money.

hehehehe

full job title:

i am a civil servant working in the local delivery section of the cultural services department of durham county council. (this is what i am meant to say if anyone asks, seriously, we got a memo about it last year!)

short version:

i'm an assistant librarian. (which describes my job a hell of a lot better if you ask me)

W · 12 Aug 2003, 16:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
OK admittedly there is the whole Banality of evil thing but I think there are two important differences:

1. I don't actuallly have to shoot people, pick on black people for a living.

2. The explicit aim of the police and the army is to preserve the status quo and tread on the masses. The civil service may also do this but at leaset have the decency to pretend to be doing something else.

What, you're complaining cause the police and the army aren't revolutionaries?!?

It's not like if you're a cop you have to vote against any legislation change.

Marilyn Manson · 12 Aug 2003, 16:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
1. I don't actuallly have to shoot people, pick on black people for a living.

Neither do a lot of police. Not that this matters, because ultimately the civil service is the administrative arm of government and thereby is fundamental to the sustanence of the system. If you think that the system is wholly morally bankrupt, then working for the civil service is simple pragmatism and/or hypocrisy.

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
2. The explicit aim of the police and the army is to preserve the status quo

Define 'status quo'.

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
and tread on the masses.

How do they do this, exactly?

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
The civil service may also do this but at leaset have the decency to pretend to be doing something else.

Well, that makes all the difference!

Marilyn Manson · 12 Aug 2003, 16:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
That's my perspective.

True, an SS officer is obviously going to have more complicity in the criminality of a regime, than, say, a clerk who works for a health quango.

Ultimately this is a matter of degrees. It would depend on whether you were there as a pragmatist who was using the system for whatever good can be gained to affect society, or whether you were fairly politically apathetic. For instance, if the clerk is involved in adminitering a involuntary euthanasia programme, and is sympathetic or compliant, would we still view them in the same light? No, of course not.

Unless you can truely distance yourself from a position that is useful in upholding the system, but is still related to the state, then I don't think you can fully claim to be still personally 'pure' ideologically. And I don't thinkt hat the civil service would generally be a benevolent factor that didn't serve to uphold the state.

Marilyn Manson · 12 Aug 2003, 16:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
Most laws are regressive, they focus on the weak and the poor and the desperate. The police spend a disproportionate amount of time picking on petty criminals, children and immigrants, in fact anyone that doesn't conform to the state agenda.

Well, all this is mostly unsubtantiated value-opinion so I'll just leave that.

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
The police showed their colours most vividly during the miners strike and the Toksteth(sp?) riots,

The Police are just there to enforce the law. They are just as likely to come into conflict with mindless idiots as they are with people with political motives.

The only reason that they haven't clashed with more right-wing rioters, etc in recent times is that simply the far right etc have not had a sufficently large enough street presence to cause such trouble.

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
The British army are basically terrorists.

How?

W · 12 Aug 2003, 16:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
Most laws are regressive, they focus on the weak and the poor and the desperate. The police spend a disproportionate amount of time picking on petty criminals, children and immigrants, in fact anyone that doesn't conform to the state agenda. The police showed their colours most vividly during the miners strike and the Toksteth(sp?) riots, but there are many everyday incidents of oppression that would not be tolerated by richer or more prominant members of society. The police are essentially the paramilitary wing of the liberal government whose job is to protect property from the majority.

The British army are basically terrorists.

Did you know, this forum for a norwegian-developed game actually contains people NOT living in the UK?

SbOlly · 12 Aug 2003, 17:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
OK admittedly there is the whole Banality of evil thing but I think there are two important differences:

1. I don't actuallly have to shoot people, pick on black people for a living.

2. The explicit aim of the police and the army is to preserve the status quo and tread on the masses. The civil service may also do this but at leaset have the decency to pretend to be doing something else.

Random man - "Oi, you didn't beat up that black person did you?"
Man in power - "No, no, don't be silly, I don't do that for a living"
Random man - "Phew, thank god for that, so he's ok then?"
Man in power - "Oh no, he's pulp. I had a policeman do it for me"

DO YOU SEE?

isildurx · 12 Aug 2003, 17:03

Im from norway, and no way im going tonthe military.

First ill postpone it due to studies, and if they want me then, ill just show up drunk, or wet my pants on the first day.

Marilyn Manson · 12 Aug 2003, 17:08

My girlfriend's friend is half-Norwegian.

True story.

12 Aug 2003, 17:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
WHEN-ARE-YOU-GOING-TO-DIE, MR-FAG-O-RAMA?

Well, Norway has an average lifespan on males at aprox. 75 years.
Considering that I'm 23 and nothing bad happens to me, I've got some 52 years left. I'm not even half way there yet!

Marilyn Manson · 12 Aug 2003, 17:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
As for MM's "the police are there to enforce the law" I think you give them to much credit. Also surely they serve the Government rather than the people.

Well, technically under a democracy the government are only representative of the people.

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
As any school child will tell you, the primary role of Government is protect property from the majority.

In other, words, most governments don't nationalise everything that moves?

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
I think if want evidence we need only look at the disproportionate number of poor people in prison.

Poor people are the ones mostly in prison because poor people are the ones that more often than not are forced into crime by a complete lack of any real social provision or improvement.

It's not un-socialist to say that poor people are the members of society who are the ones that commit crime most often and have a greater propensity to do so; on the contrary, it's simply recognising that poverty is a social disease that is a degrading blight on society.

They arent being specially 'victimised' by the government, except through a lack of action to improve the sort of conditions that breed crime.

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
As for the British army being terrorists, it seems self-evident: Bloody Sunday and decades of oppression in Northern Ireland, trained the Khmer Rouge, invasion of Sierra Leone, bombing of Iraqi civilians (before and during the war) to name but a few incidents.

A lot of that is based on a politically emotional idea of what terrorism is.

Marilyn Manson · 12 Aug 2003, 17:21

Quote:

Originally posted by BarbieKen
Well, Norway has an average lifespan on males at aprox. 75 years.
Considering that I'm 23 and nothing bad happens to me, I've got some 52 years left. I'm not even half way there yet!

Are you flammable?

12 Aug 2003, 17:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
Are you flammable?

No, but I'm one hell of a BBQ party guest!

W · 12 Aug 2003, 17:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
Never work for the Norwegian army or the police. Ever.

Why not?

Phang · 12 Aug 2003, 17:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
Well, technically under a democracy the government are only representative of the people.

I was of the understanding that technically under a democracy the government were elected to make decisions which follow the will of the people. Surely the government can only truly be representative of the people under an anarcho-syndicalist or similar system?

roadrunner_0 · 12 Aug 2003, 17:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
So are an actual Civil Servant then? Or are you a local Governemnt worker.

technically a local government worker, but we have to say we are civil servants, i dont know why, i will see if i can dig out a copy of the memo, i havent had a good laugh at it in a while

so i am so used to saying it, that i generally just say i'm a civil servant now, even though its technically wrong, in fact, i think it even says in my profile on here that i am a civil servant, and i know my bank has me down as a civil servant, as i was in to see my bank manager today

roadrunner_0 · 12 Aug 2003, 17:50

totally, but they pay my bills and let me go drinking, so i forgive them their sins

edit: as an aside, you know i was damning you the other day for having 2meg adsl? well we are getting it next week \o/ so

(can you tell im happy now)

roadrunner_0 · 12 Aug 2003, 18:07

possibly nildram i think, but i will have to check when i get home, as im not taking care of that, one of my flatmates is

as to pricing, the jolt banner at the top of the page gives you a link to their site, its something like £60 installation and £60 a month, which we can easily afford

(but a 150 gig a month d/l cap though

)

mpr0733 · 12 Aug 2003, 19:14

Go Go Matrim.

Fulfill your future ****ty job with pride and smile at every and any soldier you'll ever see.

Rather that than having to listen to bulldogs, being bored to death and having to perform all kinds of ****ty tasks.

Deathjam · 12 Aug 2003, 21:11

has norways army actually done anything ever

ChubbyChecker · 12 Aug 2003, 21:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Deathjam
has norways army actually done anything ever

It got defeated by Germany in WWII

Can't think of anything else.

Matrim · 12 Aug 2003, 21:53

Quote:

Originally posted by W
No.
Besides, your CO might be younger than you...

So I take it you did your duty for king and country.

Though I must admit that if you'd said that you went to prison for 3 months in stead I would not have been surprised.

Matrim

Matrim · 12 Aug 2003, 21:57

Quote:

Originally posted by ChubbyChecker
It got defeated by Germany in WWII

Can't think of anything else.

Actually we fight a little known war against gigant squid in the depths of the ocean. Glory to us. Not that I want any part of it.

Matrim

Scoot951 · 13 Aug 2003, 04:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Matrim
So I take it you did your duty for king and country.

Though I must admit that if you'd said that you went to prison for 3 months in stead I would not have been surprised.

Matrim

So there's a third option then?

T&F: While a country might get away without an army in some cases (like Iceland), a country with no police is anarchy. I'd rather have them 'treading on my masses' than having random people walk in my house and shooting me every other day, thank you very much.

W · 13 Aug 2003, 07:38

Quote:

Originally posted by ChubbyChecker
It got defeated by Germany in WWII

Can't think of anything else.

And it's to prevent things like that from happening again that we HAVE a defence. We're not able to invade anyone, or even prevent a massive invasion from a larger nation focusing on invading us. What we can do, is making an invasion horribly expensive and annoying, and work as a deterrent against seeing us as a target of opportunity/strategy.

Quote:

Originally posted by Matrim
So I take it you did your duty for king and country.

Though I must admit that if you'd said that you went to prison for 3 months in stead I would not have been surprised.

I volunteered for home guard service, and got 6 months training. If you don't want to waste a whole year not studying/working/whatever, you should consider it. It's the most interesting and most important part of our defence.

Orean · 13 Aug 2003, 08:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Matrim
I will not spend a year being disciplined by nationalistic drop outs two years older than me. I will not suffer the the sadistic whims of a bitter troop leader who has been arguing with his wife all weekend about his obsession with German WW2 gun systems.

A bit predjudiced, aren't we? Most of the officers there aren't even married; they're first/second year out of officer training, and eager to be as evul to the newcomers as their officers were to them when they started

13 Aug 2003, 09:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Deathjam
has norways army actually done anything ever

We are N.A.T.O. members. We have sent troops to Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia, Kosovo etc. Stop beeing so ****ty.

Norwegian special forces are ranked among top 3 come rough terrain fighting and winter warfare.

13 Aug 2003, 10:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
NATO= Big shower of bastards

It's a big shower 'made out' of bastards?

It's a Shower of big bastards?

It's a Big bastard of showering?

It's a of big showering bastards?

I can't be arsed to do more, nor do I get your point.

13 Aug 2003, 11:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
Like a rain shower, but instead of rain, bastards.

Does that mean it's like showering in/with bastards?

Does it make you clean, or are you making a sarcastic remark about the effect of showering?

W · 13 Aug 2003, 11:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
ROFL

Alright, so I'm biased, and was propped full of propaganda during training, but there certainly is something to it.

13 Aug 2003, 11:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
When was the last time anyone tried to invade Norway?

The 1940's. Because we had not maintained a defensive force we where easily defeated.

Deepflow · 13 Aug 2003, 11:25

one of my friends (who went back to germany this morning actually) was working for a low paid civil service type thing in this country for a year. He enjoyed it, so did almost all of the others... And in any case. it cant be worse than the army.

13 Aug 2003, 11:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
That's a bit of a circular argument:

We have to have a large army to prevent attack.
But we haven't been attacked?
That's because we have a large army?

Besides who are the threat to Norway? Denmark, Holland, Sweden? I realise these all militaristic nations desperate to captur your mobile phone companies and Fjords(sp?) but they aren't that scary are they?

We are sucking up more oil than most of europe combined. We have a strategic coast line. We have loads of fish.

I Am Grimble · 13 Aug 2003, 11:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Matrim
I'll have to spend a year working in some kind of social institution for practically no payment at all some time in the far, far future.

I never had to do that. I just showed up at the base, then got discharged and ****ed off to Spain for a holiday instead.

Ärketrollmannen · 13 Aug 2003, 11:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
That's a bit of a circular argument:

We have to have a large army to prevent attack.
But we haven't been attacked?
That's because we have a large army?

Besides who are the threat to Norway? Denmark, Holland, Sweden? I realise these all militaristic nations desperate to captur your mobile phone companies and Fjords(sp?) but they aren't that scary are they?

So they have to be invaded in order to have an army to prevent invasion.....?

And Norway is known for it's cell phones?

13 Aug 2003, 11:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Ärketrollmannen
So they have to be invaded in order to have an army to prevent invasion.....?

And Norway is known for it's cell phones?

He's just giving the general twat reply's. Take no offence, for he does not know bettter.

Dante Hicks · 13 Aug 2003, 11:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Ärketrollmannen
So they have to be invaded in order to have an army to prevent invasion.....?

Invasions don't generally spring out of nowhere. This is why you have entire government depts dedicated to looking at possible strategic threats. Some kind of standing army might have been justified in the cold-war period, but I don't get it today.

Israel would be insane not to have some form of standing army at this exact moment, for example (for obvious reasons). Britain (I'd argue) and Norway (potentially, I don't know or care enough tbh) probably don't need one. These things aren't exactly complicated.

Ärketrollmannen · 13 Aug 2003, 11:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Invasions don't generally spring out of nowhere. This is why you have entire government depts dedicated to looking at possible strategic threats. Some kind of standing army might have been justified in the cold-war period, but I don't get it today.

Israel would be insane not to have some form of standing army at this exact moment, for example (for obvious reasons). Britain (I'd argue) and Norway (potentially, I don't know or care enough tbh) probably don't need one. These things aren't exactly complicated.

Norway is part of NATO, I believe they have sworn to protect the other NATO countries and as such they HAVE to have some kind of military force.