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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 11:55   #1
Ginga
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University Grades

Just watching Holyoaks and theyve got their grades and theyre on about them being two ones and one ones and two twos...... im like... What the ****?!?!?!

How do uni grading systems work? It makes no sense to me at all!
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 11:56   #2
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Re: University Grades

First, 2:1, 2:2, Third, (Pass), Fail
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 11:57   #3
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Re: University Grades

70% + - 1st
60%-70% - 2:1
50%-60% - 2:2
40%-50% - 3rd
35%-40% - Pass

It varys from place to placebut that's the basic thing.
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 11:58   #4
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Re: University Grades

ok, but why? what does 2:1 represent? whats wrong with A, B, C, D, E, F etc... ?
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 12:01   #5
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Re: University Grades

How about using an actual 1-10 or 1-100 system.
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 12:07   #6
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Re: University Grades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks
70% + - 1st
60%-70% - 2:1
50%-60% - 2:2
40%-50% - 3rd
35%-40% - Pass

It varys from place to placebut that's the basic thing.

Looking at the back of my results sheet, it appears that for Sheffield it's

70%+ 1st
60-69% 2.1
50-59% 2.2
45-49% 3rd
40-44% Pass
1-39% Fail


So yes very similar.


(I might as well attention whore in this thread and boast that I averaged 82% in my final year and have won some award, but it only gives me £100 Damn socialist uni. I'm sure Leeds was £1500 if you won that!)
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 12:09   #7
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Re: University Grades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga
ok, but why? what does 2:1 represent?
It means having a 2:1, which is worse than a first but better than a 2:2 or third.

You can hardly hold up alphabet grading as some kind of revolutionary system, however, because it's just the same but with different names - and, as the first/2:1/etc system was almost certainly in use prior to A/B/C/D/etc, it's arguably the alphabetical system that's incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
How about using an actual 1-10 or 1-100 system
I don't see what that's supposed to accomplish, as exam variances will have a significant impact on those scales, and thus you'd be looking at ranges equivilent to the ones given anyway. If you mean "why don't they give you your results in %", then, in almost all cases, they do - it's just that when comparing different courses from different universities, it's rather pointless because they'll have different standards. If I talk to someone who got a first in classics, then I know that he's a very good classicist. If he tells me he got 68% in his finals, then I don't know what to think because I don't know the average distributions in the exams in question.
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 12:26   #8
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Re: University Grades

wouldn't it be better if they gave out the percentages instead?
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 12:29   #9
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Re: University Grades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Embroglio
wouldn't it be better if they gave out the percentages instead?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
If you mean "why don't they give you your results in %", then, in almost all cases, they do - it's just that when comparing different courses from different universities, it's rather pointless because they'll have different standards. If I talk to someone who got a first in classics, then I know that he's a very good classicist. If he tells me he got 68% in his finals, then I don't know what to think because I don't know the average distributions in the exams in question.
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 12:40   #10
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Re: University Grades

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
If I talk to someone who got a first in classics, then I know that he's a very good classicist.
No, you'll know that he is a capable classicist, not that he is a very good one, unless your grading system works differently.

If I talk to someone who has gotten, say a 95 or a 100 on a test, I'll know that he is exceptionally good, whereas someone who has gotten a 75 would just be good. Their level of competence would vary a good bit, yet under your system they'd both get a "first".
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 12:48   #11
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Re: University Grades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
If I talk to someone who has gotten, say a 95 or a 100 on a test, I'll know that he is exceptionally good, whereas someone who has gotten a 75 would just be good. Their level of competence would vary a good bit, yet under your system they'd both get a "first".
You'd do bloody well to get above 85%, 80% even on essays.
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 12:50   #12
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Re: University Grades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
You'd do bloody well to get above 85%, 80% even on essays.
Same here. Under the "first" system however, someone who does manage that doesn't seem to get anything better out of it than someone who gets a 70%.
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 12:55   #13
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Re: University Grades

Personally if I'm speaking to someone I listen to what they're actually saying to see if they're intelligent, rather than checking if they have a Blue Peter badge confirming it.

The advantage of not giving out the percentages is that you have possibility of moderating up or down I suppose. I once did an IT test which almost everyone got between 70% and 100%. If someone said they had got 90% it'd be pretty meaningless unless you knew how much everyone else got. Whether this actually happens in University exams / grades I don't know.
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 14:41   #14
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Re: University Grades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
If I talk to someone who has gotten, say a 95 or a 100 on a test, I'll know that he is exceptionally good, whereas someone who has gotten a 75 would just be good. Their level of competence would vary a good bit, yet under your system they'd both get a "first".
I think someone who gets 70% in a part two tripos exam deserves to be called "very good" at their subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Personally if I'm speaking to someone I listen to what they're actually saying to see if they're intelligent, rather than checking if they have a Blue Peter badge confirming it.
You do realise the distinction between "intelligent" and "good at their subject" don't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Whether this actually happens in University exams / grades I don't know.
Moderating results doesn't happen on a year by year basis, at least not here. However, [insert comments on % from earlier].
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 15:03   #15
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Re: University Grades

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I think someone who gets 70% in a part two tripos exam deserves to be called "very good" at their subject.
Your exams are built up differently over there then. Over here you'd have to get over 80-85% to be considered "very good".
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 15:18   #16
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Re: University Grades

Agreeing with Dante. I got a first, I still know shit all about my subject really. If you know what the markers want to see you can get any grade you want. It doesn't make you intelligent, it means you can play the university game.

University is about enhancing your skills, be it reading/writing/argument making/whatever, and learning new stuff. It doesn't really help you with intelligence.
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 15:23   #17
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Re: University Grades

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Moderating results doesn't happen on a year by year basis, at least not here. However, [insert comments on % from earlier].
Ours are normalised against a year average.
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 17:28   #18
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Re: University Grades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Same here. Under the "first" system however, someone who does manage that doesn't seem to get anything better out of it than someone who gets a 70%.
oxford, for instance, won't mark an essay higher than a 79. and to get a 79 would be exceptional, not exceptional in terms of one years results, but exceptional in 'you'd be able to brag about it for the rest of your lifetime safe in the knowledge that no one else will get one' sort of sense.

other than that point, MrL deals admirably with any othe questions.
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 20:37   #19
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Re: University Grades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks
70% + - 1st
60%-70% - 2:1
50%-60% - 2:2
40%-50% - 3rd
35%-40% - Pass

It varys from place to placebut that's the basic thing.
The %, does it refer to percentage of possible points or does it refer to standing within the class?
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 20:54   #20
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Re: University Grades

1, 2, 3 (<---fail), 4, 4.5, 5, 5.5, 6, where I live.
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 20:57   #21
Nodrog
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Re: University Grades

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Originally Posted by dda
The %, does it refer to percentage of possible points or does it refer to standing within the class?
It depends on the institution. At my college it is scaled quite heavily so your mark reflects your standing within the class, but others are free to use absolute percentages if they wish to. If they were using absolute percentages then the required mark to get a first, 2:1 etc would probably vary year by year - basically the number of people in each degree class stays relatively constant, so something has to be scaled/changed at some stage.
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 22:45   #22
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: University Grades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
basically the number of people in each degree class stays relatively constant, so something has to be scaled/changed at some stage.
Why not the number of 2:1's given out? If someone is (as far as you can make sure) as good as someone who got a 2:1 last year, it seems rather pointless to not grant them a 2:1.
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 23:22   #23
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Re: University Grades

But you cant tell if they are as good due to the general incommensurability of exam papers. Assuming that the ability distribution across various years remains relatively constant seems like just as good, if not better, a hypothesis than that your exam papers are 'equally hard' (especially since that term is meaningless in the case of any particular student - even if 2 papers have been found to be 'equally hard' in terms of the average score achieved across a number of test cases, an individual student may still find one of them a lot easier than the other).
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 23:53   #24
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: University Grades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
But you cant tell if they are as good due to the general incommensurability of exam papers. Assuming that the ability distribution across various years remains relatively constant seems like just as good, if not better, a hypothesis than that your exam papers are 'equally hard' (especially since that term is meaningless in the case of any particular student - even if 2 papers have been found to be 'equally hard' in terms of the average score achieved across a number of test cases, an individual student may still find one of them a lot easier than the other).
Some courses don't just use terminal exams, don'tchaknow. Furthermore, you can get a lot more specialised on most uni courses than in earlier stages - if you arbitrarily chose me 6 step questions to do, for example, I would have probably done worse than when I chose them - so the "equally hard" problem is less applicable, although still obviously a problem.

Anyway, part of the problem is solved here by getting up close and personal with lots of academics - a good recommendation from a respected fellow can be a lot more helpful than the difference between a 2:2 and a 2:1 or a 2:1 and a first.
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Unread 11 Jul 2005, 00:06   #25
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Re: University Grades

But most courses do use terminal exams. And I'm not sure how your comment about references is relevant here.
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Unread 11 Jul 2005, 07:30   #26
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Re: University Grades

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
You do realise the distinction between "intelligent" and "good at their subject" don't you?
Yes and no.

Firstly I'm assuming a degree (lol and so forth) of overlap. Someone who is able to perform exceptionally at any degree level subject probably has a degree of what one might term intelligence.

Moreover I'm only going to be interested in how good someone is at their subject in the same sort of context as knowing if they're intelligent. So, if I was interviewing someone for a job, was involved in a discussion on-line with them, reading an article they had written and so on. I can't think of a single reason where knowing they got a First was independently useful.
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Unread 11 Jul 2005, 09:59   #27
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Re: University Grades

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
But most courses do use terminal exams.
And, in this context, I disagree with their use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
And I'm not sure how your comment about references is relevant here.
Because the only area that really caress about the actual grade of the degree is academia?
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Unread 11 Jul 2005, 10:24   #28
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Re: University Grades

I can't be arsed to read this thread, so for my 4500th post I will just agree with whatever MrL said.

btw, Spirited Away is one strange film.
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