PaTeam and Alliances.

[Forest]

<xontas> we have done some hacking aswell
<xontas> and seen some private forums :-)

On the topic of pateam checking out cheats.

S, the question I ask is, is this ethical?

[Virall]

Absolutley not. Congrats for uncovering.

[noah02]

:-O
Is that not erm a bit down right below the belt :/

seems everything new i read on planetarion staff being inconsistent and pants there is always xontas name there

And i thought you was ok dude but i find hacking into alliance forums a bit pathetic tbh

[furball]

No, I don't think it's ethical, as such. However, I think that the fact that certain alliances either are or aren't cheating needs to be proven once and for all, and if this is a way of doing so, then I accept it as long as these methods are neither abused nor selectively passed to certain community members.

To be honest, the end justifies the means.

furball

[Forest]

Furball the end doesnt justify the means.

Can I get a comment from a certain hc that exactly 16 of there members + 2 who dropped out early, are all using vnc for pa?

[Forest]

<Forest_away> ok
<Forest_away> what about this
<Forest_away> 2 rounds ago, me and cypher reported a multi 5 times, someone from in our gal
<Forest_away> we provided logs
<xontas> logs dont count
<Forest_away> each time all we got was 'he isnt cheating'
<Forest_away> een though we knew 100% he was
<Forest_away> u closed him, after he got roided, joined #support and told u he was cheating
<Forest_away> though u checeked him 5 times b4 and couldnt catych him
<Forest_away> now tell me, how can we have faith
<Forest_away> when that happens
<xontas> look
<xontas> we dont catch them all

You catch fairly few.

[Bashar]

Ethical? That is completely irrelevant. It is ILLEGAL, simple as that. PA-Team should not be hacking anything, any more than anyone else should. If this is true, and not just xontas blowing his mouth off to look '1337' (which wouldn't surprise me massively), then it is absolutely appauling, and I would suggest PA team give a full public apology for these actions, as they could end up in a lot of trouble if it is true.

[Kal]

I'd theorise that the word hacking has been missused here.

[Smudge]

I was forced to leave bash.org for this??

(couldnt be bothered to open a new window)

[I am Idler]

Wouldnt this technically qualify as a criminal offense ?

I recall there being laws against intrusion on closed servers

[Stifler]

Originally Posted by Bashar

Ethical? That is completely irrelevant. It is ILLEGAL, simple as that. PA-Team should not be hacking anything, any more than anyone else should. If this is true, and not just xontas blowing his mouth off to look '1337' (which wouldn't surprise me massively), then it is absolutely appauling, and I would suggest PA team give a full public apology for these actions, as they could end up in a lot of trouble if it is true.

I would agree with this post, I really hope xontas is just trying to look "cool" here since ofcourse hacking is illegal.

Also hope that PAteam dont just "brush it under the rug" rather than try and find out if there is any truth in the matter

[Entium]

What "private forums" are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Forest

<Forest_away> what about this
<Forest_away> 2 rounds ago, me and cypher reported a multi 5 times, someone from in our gal
<Forest_away> we provided logs
<xontas> logs dont count
<Forest_away> each time all we got was 'he isnt cheating'
<Forest_away> een though we knew 100% he was
<Forest_away> u closed him, after he got roided, joined #support and told u he was cheating
<Forest_away> though u checeked him 5 times b4 and couldnt catych him

And I can confirm this.

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Kal

I'd theorise that the word hacking has been missused here.

We couldn't care less what you theorise, the fact is that it suggests that the law has been broken, and that PA-Team have let us all down. Theorising is useless. Finding answers is what's needed.

[Smudge]

Well at the moment your saying this on a convo with one member of the Team (Xontas), so surely he should have been talked to first and not the PA Teams name used?

[xontas]

actualy i told forest i hacked my way in but (tbh) i couldn't do that
i would not know how :-)


i told forest this because we had a personal difference on how to talk to admins
(do this or.......) and we dont want that!
we call that blackmail in the real world

i had access to the exilition forum true someone (who will remain unnamed) sharing there login with me to show me what was going on
this showed me that exiltion is in fact highly organised and thats what i told forest

what this show is that if you tell forest something in private that trust can be shamed when he has a argument with you.

this goes to everyone in the game, MH is not open for blackmail, and never will be
also people that ask a admin to look into a sertain case might do good respect the awnser they get and follow the flow of evidence
forest has said to me more then ones that IF i didnt close that planet (where there was no evidence of cheating) he would then get them attacked untill they quit!

wanne talk about ethics
go ahead :-)

(btw forest, i dont always tell you everything ;D)

[xontas]

Originally Posted by Kal

I'd theorise that the word hacking has been missused here.

actualy, i used the word on perpose because i knew mister crusade would attack me with it later

[Smudge]

Brilliant timing xontas

Maybe sometimes you should read the book before buying it Forest?

[xontas]

Originally Posted by Bashar

Ethical? That is completely irrelevant. It is ILLEGAL, simple as that. PA-Team should not be hacking anything, any more than anyone else should. If this is true, and not just xontas blowing his mouth off to look '1337' (which wouldn't surprise me massively), then it is absolutely appauling, and I would suggest PA team give a full public apology for these actions, as they could end up in a lot of trouble if it is true.

yes it is and under the contract i signed with jolt i would be crazy to risk the amount of money this could cost me
so 1) i would never do it 2) i would NEVER tell it to someone in a agrument unless see above

so no, didnt do it :-)

[ComradeRob]

Most people in planetarion wouldn't recognise a hacker even if Kevin Mitnick broke into their bedroom at night and wanked on their face.

[Smudge]

Plus if hes working for Jolt / PA then I believe a pre-req is an ounce of intelligence, so talking in PM to one of the (no offence) big mouths on the Forums about things this sensitive would prove that pre-req isnt there

[Forest]

Ahh. So pateam openly lie. Silly me.

There was me thinking you actually told the community a truth.

Good job you really do know what you are talking about.

Heh.

[Smudge]

Originally Posted by ComradeRob

Most people in planetarion wouldn't recognise a hacker even if Kevin Mitnick broke into their bedroom at night and wanked on their face.

Nominee for the Funniest Reply Ever award

[xontas]

no forest
Xontas lied to you because HE didnt trust you

silly me, i was right

shall we talk this over outside the forum without the WHOLE uni reading about it, ok

:-)

[cypher]

there have actually been others who said they 'hacked' into all accounts (exi accounts) xontas.... if you want name you know where to find me.... but i doubt you do

[Forest]

No lets not.

You already stated you will ignore me and have told the whole of the Multi-Hunter team to ignore me.

I hope you are glad you helped me to quit.

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by xontas

what this show is that if you tell forest something in private that trust can be shamed when he has a argument with you.

No it doesn't, what this shows is that you are ignorant. What Forest did was right, and I would have done too. What you said to him was not like something normal in private, it was you suggesting that PA team was acting against the law. If you expect that sort of thing to be kept private by people you hardly know, then you are a fool. You are also a fool for saying such a thing, as suggesting you have committed a criminal offence is not a sensible thing to do, especially not from a position of authority.

You really need to start thinking about the things you say.

[xontas]

when you get a NO from a admin, you go and ask every admin with tools to do it
yes i told then to send you to me with any MH request

thats on both the MH and PAteam private forums

do you realy want to go on and on
i have nothing to hide btw

[ComradeRob]

So, either xontas hacks into people's private forums, in which case he is a ****.

Or he lies to people about hacking, presumably to make himself look clever, in which case he is a ****.

I'm not sure what other conclusions there are to draw here, people.

[Forest]

Xontas, lets get it out now.

Tell me ONE, just one, time when I ahve been told no by an admin and then gone and asked someone else.

[Smudge]

Originally Posted by Forest

No lets not.

Surely it would be less damaging for all parties involved?

Originally Posted by ComradeRob

I'm not sure what other conclusions there are to draw here, people.

Probably that its be blown out of all proportion

[Kloopy]

I have seen comments from the person Xontas refers to about the access PATeam gained to the forums in question. I realise that some members of the community have little trust or respect for PATeam or certain members within it. However, as a team we vet each and every member of the team and asses their skills. If anyone has doubt over anything it quickly surfaces, we like a bit of drama within PATeam as much as you like it within the whole community.

I'm quite confident that if any member of PATeam were using hacking to aid cheat detection that not only would those actions be noticed but they wouldn't be accepted by anyone in the team. I believe that the access to Exhil forums was totally legal, as Xontas' reply states. Wether accessing the information and using it to base our decisions on Exil planets is ethical or not could be debated for a long time.

The fact remains, however, that PATeam did get access to their forums though legal means and the evidence gathered from the source has helped the multihunters accept Exil as a well organised alliance. I'm sure if the alliance in question was 1up, Wolfpack or Nos or any other of the respected alliances the fact that evidence was gathered to support them wouldn't be an issue. I know full well that many members of the community are unconvinced that Exil are legitimate, however I'd urge you to accept this evidence.

People who know me will probably admit that I'm more than happy to listen to arguement and that I can be hard to convince otherwise when I have something set in mind. From what I've been told, the information gained from the Exil forums convinces me. It might not be worth much to you, but that's my two cents.

[xontas]

Originally Posted by Bashar

No it doesn't, what this shows is that you are ignorant. What Forest did was right, and I would have done too. What you said to him was not like something normal in private, it was you suggesting that PA team was acting against the law. If you expect that sort of thing to be kept private by people you hardly know, then you are a fool. You are also a fool for saying such a thing, as suggesting you have committed a criminal offence is not a sensible thing to do, especially not from a position of authority.

You really need to start thinking about the things you say.

if you think so........thats your right
ANY info i get told stays private, it comes wirth the job of MH
also i follow the law and the guidelines we set in PA to hunt
those things i have said before

yes i played with forest a bit, and not to make him quit but to show him that crusades in PA are not wanted
we have MH team who are dedicated and know what they are doing
those guys where getting no respect from him
thats why i took the action of restricting forest to 1 admin

and after he tried to get me fired by mailing biffy that i wouldnt help him
i set a trap
nice, no
do i do that often, no (never did before)
was it needed, hell yes

sorry if i offended anyone, but i did what imo i needed to do

i will stop replying now
anyone wanting to talk to me about it
i am on IRC

[Smudge]

Well 2 cent's Kloopy

At the end of the day, its at the end of the round - why not just call it a day?

[Forest]

Originally Posted by Kloopy

IThe fact remains, however, that PATeam did get access to their forums though legal means and the evidence gathered from the source has helped the multihunters accept Exil as a well organised alliance. I'm sure if the alliance in question was 1up, Wolfpack or Nos or any other of the respected alliances the fact that evidence was gathered to support them wouldn't be an issue. I know full well that many members of the community are unconvinced that Exil are legitimate, however I'd urge you to accept this evidence.

So someone in an alliance gave you certain access in there forums. This proves it all I guess, because 18 people out of 66 in an alliance are bound to post that they are cheating on a forum acesses by all. Heh. Have some brains.

And I find it highly insulting that you feel that evidnece on an alliance would be different if it was a different alliance. I have over a long period of time proved time and time again that I would (and do) report both my own alliance, and galaxy, above and over the call of duty, down to even scanning every planet in my OWN alliance to do help me catch people. Do show some respect.

[Smudge]

and I find it insulting your trying to attention and shit stir when there is nothing actually wrong going on.

Do show some respect

[Forest]

Originally Posted by xontas

if you think so........thats your right
ANY info i get told stays private, it comes wirth the job of MH
also i follow the law and the guidelines we set in PA to hunt
those things i have said before

I am not pateam, I dont HAVE to keep things private.

Originally Posted by xontas

yes i played with forest a bit, and not to make him quit but to show him that crusades in PA are not wanted

You played with me? Funny that. Reading the logs shows that what you said was how you knew certain people werent cheating. So now you have run out of reasons for not closing people that MH have admitted are cheating but cant get caught. Do you really want me to go through logs and post logs from other pateam cause we can open cans of worms if you really want me to.

Originally Posted by xontas

we have MH team who are dedicated and know what they are doing

You have a MH team.

Originally Posted by xontas

those guys where getting no respect from him
thats why i took the action of restricting forest to 1 admin

Most of them are personal friends of mine, so dont even be going there.

Originally Posted by xontas

and after he tried to get me fired by mailing biffy that i wouldnt help him
i set a trap
nice, no
do i do that often, no (never did before)
was it needed, hell yes

I never tried to get anyone fired. I made a legitimate complaint to Jolt, over you deciding all would ignore me (as shown in my sig). A complaint that Biffy agreed YOU were in the WRONG.

[Treveler]

Its scary that access to a forum can convince MH`ers that an alliance is clean. For all you know that might very well be arranged for your eyes only. I serisously doubt a group of cheaters organise or openly talk about it on a forum who outsiders has access to.

And the fact that an alliance is exstreamly organised and thight, does not mean that they dont cheat.

[Squidly]

Valid point kloopy... But as a counter suggestion

If you're about to steal 5$ from mother's purse, are you going to write on your bulletin board of "Stuff to do today"?

If you're about to fraud a company, are you seriously going to write yourself a little post-it note and leave it in your cubicle for when the cops come looking to see who did it?

Let's face it... exilition doesn't qualify as stupid here. With the risk of spies around on their forums... chances are that any groups using it aren't going to post it where the risk of it being spied upon {as demonstrated by xontas} is prevalent. Chances are, any cheating could be a messenger conversation, an email, or another site altogether. There's nothing about cheating on the ND forums for example, but for all any of you know here, I've been coordinating 15+ accounts with 4 other members over msn. *shrugs*

Correct me if I'm wrong... but... That above viewing by xontas only shows that any VNC use is not an alliance-wide activity. But it shows absolutely nothing about use amongst a set group of friends.

Originally Posted by Smudge

and I find it insulting your trying to attention and shit stir when there is nothing actually wrong going on.

Do show some respect

I think respect for these guys will only come from the 'others' of the PA community when they are able to win a round without featuring X number of closures.

[xontas]

Originally Posted by Treveler

Its scary that access to a forum can convince MH`ers that an alliance is clean. For all you know that might very well be arranged for your eyes only. I serisously doubt a group of cheaters organise or openly talk about it on a forum who outsiders has access to.

And the fact that an alliance is exstreamly organised and thight, does not mean that they dont cheat.

no it doesnt, but the acusation of cheating was based on high active playing
i saw the way they keep watch and how dedicated there alliance is
but ofc didnt we just watch the forum and go " thats fine" and quit looking

we looked @ every login IP in exilition, ran every account in the alliance true the tools on a weekly basis and ofc we checked out all intel
also we compaired logintimes and did lots more other stuff that i will keep private to keep the multi's guessing :-)

thats not extra btw, we do that to the top 5 alliances
top 10 gals
and the top 25 players

next to this we ofc look at random stuff that gets detected and looks funny

on all issues related to forest post, your welcome to come talk to me, i am on IRC

[I am Idler]

Id personally prefer if the PATeam would be a bit more open about whats going on.

We really shouldnt have to come to you for answers or information about the happenings in the universe, it should be the other way around.

[Snurx]

Don't ever diss forest's integrity. I don't know him, and frankly, he sometimes comes of as a complete ass, but in the field of cheating, you will probably have to look for a long time to find somebody so dedicated to uncover cheating.

Reading a forum is not proof of noncheating at all. As somebody allready said, it could have been a setup. Also, claiming that you hacked, no matter the reason, shows just how immature you are. Why say something like that? To act hardcore? I won't say if eX cheated or not, and I do belive in innocent untill otherwise proven, but if that were the extent of your investigations, then it's no wonder people who cheat are never caught! I see that you brag about the investigating tools your last post, but what are the tools? I can't say if you did a good job or not, for all I know the tools might just check logintimes or if the person bought icecream today.

That forest came out with this is a good thing, and your attemt to move the discussion to IRC is not. This is something of interest to ALL of us, I have in fact paid for a account in this game. The way things are done, the people who do it and their public reactions are important if you want to build a happy customerbase that sticks around and can be expanded upon. Doing things like this is like shooting a wasp on your feet. It might feel nice for a few seconds, but then you will realise you have a bigger problem.

[smeg9]

Stop Bikering, the Multi Hunters can do so much, and I think next round with auto-matic "you've steped over the line" system will be VERY good, I share my IP with three players, we don't interact AT ALL (though I discovered one morning that I'd attacked someone in the gal of the one of the other people off my IP) I didn't know what gal they were in or anything tbh....

They can do so much.. I fully trust them, next round, automatic tools to prevent not cure un-fair advantages, or multiing will make life better, means once in a blue moon, a normal player like me CAN defend someone, without thinking "CRAP I might get shut down" and also the real Multis won't unbalance the game...

[xontas]

well, you have some vaild point there

but Multihunting involves looking at the evidence and making a conclusion about that evidence
so when i respond here i am stating my opinion as head MH
and as far as i am aware there has been no cheating in exilition.
but i cant give you 100% garantee.

also we do a lot more then just look @ a forum to conclude there has been no cheating
but MH details are private and they will stay that way.

thats why the discussion about this should not be placed on the forum
because the awnser is deferent from person to person
where most dont get a awnser because they are not involved
the involved planets will get to see the evidence agains them

[Forest]

Originally Posted by xontas

thats why the discussion about this should not be placed on the forum
because the awnser is deferent from person to person
where most dont get a awnser because they are not involved
the involved planets will get to see the evidence agains them

So, instead of saying u cant discuss details, u lie.

Then, you tell the cheats how you caught them, so they can work out how to avoid that detection the following time.

Well done you!

[LEFF|pm]

Multihunters have their own alliances, they are biased like everyone else. Face it, some players just use multiple accounts, others become multihunters ^^

[cypher]

i still wonder how me being closed was known to people (outside mh team) be4 i got told or elviz got told last round yet nothing gets shared... (and there were more accusations then farming) which later turned out to be mistakes... but still...

also i think for the community it would be very good to know WHAT actually gets done and checked as idler said. instead of trying to keep it secret. because i've seen people not getting closed where enough evidence was given in multiple rounds and quite frankly I and MANY others are tired of it. seeing as we do all pay for this game we do have a right to know what actually does get done.

[xontas]

well, the fact that closure is between the planet involved and the MH team is nothing new
it has always been this way

secondly if i dont tell the person i closed why i closed him i cant void the credit they payed for !
so i kinda have to
also we are human and as cypher points out (correctly), we do make mistakes
so you have the right to apeal the desision
to apeal a desision you need to know what that desision is based upon

suggesting a admin can delete a account without explaining the why, is very bad judgement imo

no-one is getting closed on perception of someone else ( so " i know they are cheating" is not enough)
no-one is gtting closed without knowing the resons behind the closure
and no-one outside your own account and the MH team know you are closed!
(i cant stop them from scanning/attacking you and finding out tho)

[cypher]

no i meant other people besides me (while it was my account) knew what was going on while i didn't.

ofc peeps have right to appeal upto a certain point.

[xontas]

thats just not good
and it shoudnt happen

i will look into that
but this is a personal issue between you and the MH team
consider yourself invited :-)

[lokken]

if this wasn't a thread involving pa team i would have closed this thread by now (it hurt me to read it), because as the game 'creators', jolt should be open to criticism on this forum.

if anyone can think of a better forum to move this, please suggest it to me in pm (roleplay, lol) as i'm sure we've had these threads about xontas before (zzzz) and i'm sure there's a better place to sort out jolt's customer service.

if the parties involved would prefer to go on IRC or alternatively arrange to meet in a city centre of their choice and play slaps to determine who's the winner in this argument, could they please pm me, so I can close this.