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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 15:54   #51
Nusselt
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Nodrog is so :ninjaa: that he can say something rather silly run away from the thread and leave everyone spinning in his wake
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 15:57   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nusselt
Nodrog is so :ninjaa: that he can say something rather silly run away from the thread and leave everyone spinning in his wake
His prescription to any economic problem is "Bring back the Gold Standard."

Even I'm not that silly.


He's like a latter-day Whig version of Alec-Douglas Home.

Last edited by Marilyn Manson; 27 Aug 2003 at 16:07.
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 15:59   #53
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Have i not understood, or does this just come down to that you can't make money by just shuffling money around, and nothing that you make is worth* anything if no-one will buy it?

*I assume where value comes from matters little here, if you're measuring an economy in exchange media then something unexchangeable is worth diddly squat in those terms.

On the other hand if i had understood economics i ought to be wealthy rather than skint. ho hum.
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 16:28   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by G_frog
Have i not understood, or does this just come down to that you can't make money by just shuffling money around, and nothing that you make is worth* anything if no-one will buy it?
yes, that seems to be one of the best points in a market economy.
you probably can aswell define the value as the costs of the labour and the capital that is needed for the production of a good, but if people dont want to buy your product at your price i dont see how a value has been created.
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 16:36   #55
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Originally posted by roadrunner_0
the US national debt is horrifically big :/
Yeah, but who's going to collect it?

It's like attacking Mike Tyson with a toothpick.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I wish we could trademark for a less shitty poster
hahahahahahaha, get it?
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 16:38   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax
certainly this money will be invested in a market with no growth.
in what should the banks or whoever invest their money, if their are very few customers?
Yes, cause people value money more than a place to live, something to wear and to eat. And of course there's always the ability to make more values with a few values even without current customers. Building up a stock of coal for instance, is a sound investment even if it's summer and people are willing to go without heating.

When you say "economic growth" what exactly do you mean is growing?
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 16:41   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cynical Oracle
Yeah, but who's going to collect it?

It's like attacking Mike Tyson with a toothpick.
why should anyone? as long as the interest is paid, noone will care how big it is. the problem for the us goverment will be the percentage of its income per year that has to be paid for these intrests (i still have no idea how to spell that bloody word ).
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 16:41   #58
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ITT i declare that anyone who states the economic dogma from the opposite end of the political spectrum from myself doesn't understand macroeconomics!
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 16:54   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by W
Yes, cause people value money more than a place to live, something to wear and to eat. And of course there's always the ability to make more values with a few values even without current customers. Building up a stock of coal for instance, is a sound investment even if it's summer and people are willing to go without heating.
if you are an investor and can choose between a country with an economical growth rate of close to zero, like germany for example and a country with a growth rate of 5-8% like china, where will you invest your money?
and ofc, you can always invest in store /stocks / whatever the bloody word is, but its no good, because it costs a lot of money. you would only prefer that option if you assmue there will be demand for your product in the future, otherwise you would rather reduce your capacities and take your money elsewhere. this investments in other countries will pay off for the few people who made them, but if these people permanently reinvest this money elsewhere it will be out of your own economy.

Quote:
When you say "economic growth" what exactly do you mean is growing?
the growth of the GNP (adjusted by inflation / deflation)
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 16:57   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax
again, if you can buy a good today for a price and if you could wait a few month and get the same product for a lower price, what would you do?
this has nothing to do with beeing scared, deflation stops economical growth.
I don't agree - predictable inflation/deflation in moderate/steady quantities is not bad at all and does not have to stop economic growth. Economic and social problems from inflation result from the differences between inflation and reverse currency reforms. What is bad is unexpected inflation (redistributing income; penalizes people who work and save) or a too high rate of inflation (above about 2 or 3 percent per year).
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 17:02   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Entium
I don't agree - predictable inflation/deflation in moderate/steady quantities is not bad at all and does not have to stop economic growth. Economic and social problems from inflation result from the differences between inflation and reverse currency reforms. What is bad is unexpected inflation (redistributing income; penalizes people who work and save) or a too high rate of inflation (above about 2 or 3 percent per year).
deflation is teh evil, belive me, even if its moderate. its extremly harmful for investments, both in the private and the industrial sector.
the ideal rate would be an inflation-rate between 1 and 3%.
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 17:03   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
list plz
deflation unemployment poverty crime starvation infanticide and perhaps homosexuality
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 17:05   #63
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and W, consumerism taken over the top is harmfull aswell. a part of the income needs to be invested, if only to replace broken mashines and such things. else the society will lose some of its standard of living.
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 17:09   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax

the growth of the GNP (adjusted by inflation / deflation)
Economic growth is a rise in real GDP per person.

Total GDP can be influenced by population changes, not only by economic growth.
Further: GNP measures the country's total income (includes payments of money to people who worked or invested in other countries), while GDP measures the total output of final market goods and services by people and property within the country.
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 18:27   #65
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sorry, i confused the terms gdp and gnp. gdp is ofc the relevant one.
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 18:34   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax
why should anyone? as long as the interest is paid, noone will care how big it is. the problem for the us goverment will be the percentage of its income per year that has to be paid for these intrests (i still have no idea how to spell that bloody word ).
Like said before, how can you successfully barter with the worlds only superpower (In most aspects) ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I wish we could trademark for a less shitty poster
hahahahahahaha, get it?
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 18:41   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cynical Oracle
Like said before, how can you successfully barter with the worlds only superpower (In most aspects) ?

By not bartering as individual countries?
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 18:53   #68
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Originally posted by JonnyBGood
By not bartering as individual countries?
But they got the jews on their side... :/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I wish we could trademark for a less shitty poster
hahahahahahaha, get it?
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 18:55   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cynical Oracle
But they got the jews on their side... :/

*AHEM*
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 18:57   #70
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Originally posted by W
I originally wrote a "YOUR STUPID HAHA" post, but changed my mind and wrote what I did, as a way out for you, admitting that you have no clue and is pulling **** out of your ass. Now you're pushing onwards instead?

What do you think happen with the money that people NOT use on cars? You think they're somehow taken out of circulation? If people put their money in the bank, are the money locked away so they can't be invested?


ok, incase you actually are this stupid: THE MONEY IS INVESTED NO MATTER WHAT, WHETHER IN A CAR OR IN THE BUISNESSES THAT THE BANKS THINK WILL MAKE MONEY. IN NO WAY DOES MORE CONSUMERISM INCREASE ECONOMIC GROWTH!!!

Man.
So what happened to keynes? This is a serious question btw.
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 18:58   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by ParraCida
So what happened to keynes? This is a serious question btw.

Keynes is dead.











Nietzsche.
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 19:04   #72
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Sorry, but you are wrong.
Saving is the best way for (future) economic growth.
Tell that to Japan mother****er.
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 19:07   #73
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*AHEM*
It was a *cough* compliment *cough* to them. They are good at buisness.


Serious!


PS! I think I won't post more on that subject. I might get into trouble 8-)
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Quote:
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I wish we could trademark for a less shitty poster
hahahahahahaha, get it?
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 19:08   #74
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 19:27   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cynical Oracle
Like said before, how can you successfully barter with the worlds only superpower (In most aspects) ?
as long as it pays off people give money to the us, once it doesnt anymore people will stop doing it. superpower or not, thats how it works.
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 19:27   #76
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Tell that to Japan mother****er.
Thank you.
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 20:12   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax
[b]if you are an investor and can choose between a country with an economical growth rate of close to zero, like germany for example and a country with a growth rate of 5-8% like china, where will you invest your money?
and ofc, you can always invest in store /stocks / whatever the bloody word is, but its no good, because it costs a lot of money. you would only prefer that option if you assmue there will be demand for your product in the future, otherwise you would rather reduce your capacities and take your money elsewhere. this investments in other countries will pay off for the few people who made them, but if these people permanently reinvest this money elsewhere it will be out of your own economy.


the growth of the GNP (adjusted by inflation / deflation)
GNP and GDP measure the total amount of money changing hands. Nothing more. A growth of either means that more people are trading. It says nothing about what is gained for the nation, nor for the individuals of it. Besides, if banks invest the populations money abroad because the payoff is bigger, the GNP goes up (and the individuals of the nation become richer compared to individuals elsewhere). So you're still wrong, by your own measurement.

And it's not like a deflation from a gold standard would be so extreme for very long that people stopped buying cars. Economy has several homeostatic tendencies.
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 20:17   #78
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So what happened to keynes? This is a serious question btw.
I've no idea what happened to him, and I'm not sure about the connection to what I'm disputing. Haven't read anything by him.
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 20:26   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by W
I've no idea what happened to him, and I'm not sure about the connection to what I'm disputing. Haven't read anything by him.
Keynes is basic economy, I'm not quite sure how exactly you can argue on a point like this on these boards without knowing who keynes is and what his point was.


edit: read back on some of your posts, guess what, you know **** all.
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 20:30   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by W
GNP and GDP measure the total amount of money changing hands. Nothing more. A growth of either means that more people are trading. It says nothing about what is gained for the nation, nor for the individuals of it. Besides, if banks invest the populations money abroad because the payoff is bigger, the GNP goes up (and the individuals of the nation become richer compared to individuals elsewhere). So you're still wrong, by your own measurement.
they also measure how much income is available to the people of a country. (everything that is spend by someone is also earned by someone). so the growth over the years measures the development of the genral standard of living within an economy.
lets say someone earns some amount of money a year and wants to invest a part of that. he now has the option to invest it in the own country, which would increase the GDP by that amount (mshines and such stuff have to be bought) or invest it elsewhere, which would change nothing at all, but return some capital income to the country in the next years. now given the fact that our person is relativly wealthy, he/she will reinvest that capital income (or a part of it) elsewhere again, because it isnt needed.
this means the money is out of the economy.
Quote:
And it's not like a deflation from a gold standard would be so extreme for very long that people stopped buying cars. Economy has several homeostatic tendencies.
you cant seriously think its a good idea to make the amount of money in circulation depended on how much of a certain metal a state owns?
this amount of money is a very useful tool to influence the economical developments within a country, but instead of using that tool, youd rather use some antique gold standard that will generate deflation / inflation at random?
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 20:31   #81
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dear god even ive read some of keynes stuff (on uncertainty and not related to this directly but still)

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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 20:36   #82
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i didnt read keynes. i have a general idea about his therories of defict spending, market balance without full employment etc. but i never read his general theory of employment, interest and money if thats what your are talking about.
(im ashamed now :/, maybe i should read it now, i have more than enough time)
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Unread 27 Aug 2003, 21:09   #83
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Originally posted by ParraCida
Keynes is basic economy, I'm not quite sure how exactly you can argue on a point like this on these boards without knowing who keynes is and what his point was.


edit: read back on some of your posts, guess what, you know **** all.
I've no education in economy, and google for the meaning of terms like GNP (no, not the acronym. The meaning of the term). I've never pretended othervise. Part of even participating in a thread like this is about learning. I knew who Keynes was, and his main ideas, when you made this post for instance. I still don't see the relevance of his ideas upon what would affect the wealth of people, as opposed to the balance. I'm not in favour of a socialist state. Unless your entire point WAS intellectual snobbery.

Besides, most of economics seems to be entirely bogus. Educated people make predictions left and right, and they seem to fail more than succeed. Some of course have the genius to see trends before they happen, but it appears to be an intuitive thing, not direct calculation.
Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax
they also measure how much income is available to the people of a country. (everything that is spend by someone is also earned by someone). so the growth over the years measures the development of the genral standard of living within an economy.
lets say someone earns some amount of money a year and wants to invest a part of that. he now has the option to invest it in the own country, which would increase the GDP by that amount (mshines and such stuff have to be bought) or invest it elsewhere, which would change nothing at all, but return some capital income to the country in the next years. now given the fact that our person is relativly wealthy, he/she will reinvest that capital income (or a part of it) elsewhere again, because it isnt needed.
this means the money is out of the economy.
You're basing this whole thing upon it being rich individuals doing the investment. I was talking about banks, and what the money that the average Joe was used on, and what he got from it. Take the extreme: If a whole country import _everything_, in effect adding no value themself, other than investing their money abroad, how will disaster strike them? Only as a secondary effect of them not creating values for the world market, affecting everyone. It does not matter who makes the values. It matters who ends up with them. It's the difference between GNP and GDP.
Quote:

you cant seriously think its a good idea to make the amount of money in circulation depended on how much of a certain metal a state owns?
this amount of money is a very useful tool to influence the economical developments within a country, but instead of using that tool, youd rather use some antique gold standard that will generate deflation / inflation at random?
At random is it?

Economic growth by your standards is a measurement of activity, not of value added. Deflation cannot grow so high that value stops being added. It's a selfregulating system, when you have a money standard, that on one end makes sure that people aren't merely shuffeling money, and on the other end makes sure that money aren't just paper with pretty drawings and thus adds security to building capital.
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Unread 28 Aug 2003, 01:13   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by W
I've no education in economy, and google for the meaning of terms like GNP (no, not the acronym. The meaning of the term). I've never pretended othervise. Part of even participating in a thread like this is about learning. I knew who Keynes was, and his main ideas, when you made this post for instance. I still don't see the relevance of his ideas upon what would affect the wealth of people, as opposed to the balance. I'm not in favour of a socialist state. Unless your entire point WAS intellectual snobbery.

Besides, most of economics seems to be entirely bogus. Educated people make predictions left and right, and they seem to fail more than succeed. Some of course have the genius to see trends before they happen, but it appears to be an intuitive thing, not direct calculation.
keynes is extremly relevant for the whole national dept thingy. he came up with the whole idea of deficit spending (well, in fact, some chinese came up with the idea centuries before, but they never managed to publish a book in uk)
however, for discussing the gold standard he seems somewhat irrelevant, as you already said, you can borrow money no matter if its value is based on gold or on whatever else.

Quote:
You're basing this whole thing upon it being rich individuals doing the investment. I was talking about banks, and what the money that the average Joe was used on, and what he got from it. Take the extreme: If a whole country import _everything_, in effect adding no value themself, other than investing their money abroad, how will disaster strike them? Only as a secondary effect of them not creating values for the world market, affecting everyone. It does not matter who makes the values. It matters who ends up with them. It's the difference between GNP and GDP.
but i doubt average joe has enough money to live on the intrest, does he? what does he live on in your scenario? a large part of a society usually has to work with the goods bought by the capital to make their living. i dont see how this could work, except for a _very_ rich country.


Quote:
At random is it?

Economic growth by your standards is a measurement of activity, not of value added. Deflation cannot grow so high that value stops being added. It's a selfregulating system, when you have a money standard, that on one end makes sure that people aren't merely shuffeling money, and on the other end makes sure that money aren't just paper with pretty drawings and thus adds security to building capital.
i dont understand this. yes, the amount of money available (and thus the inflation/deflation) happens completly at random with a gold standard currency. it is in no way managed according to the needs of an economy. finding a large goldmine would cause inflation, inventing a new technoligy that allows to produce more goods at the same costs would mean deflation.
the gold standard is a terrible idea. it was necessary in countries with an absolute monarchy or some dictatorship, because else everyone in power could produce as much money as they want, but in a modern western country with an relativly independent central bank it no longer is.
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Unread 28 Aug 2003, 01:23   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax
i dont understand this. yes, the amount of money available (and thus the inflation/deflation) happens completly at random with a gold standard currency. it is in no way managed according to the needs of an economy. finding a large goldmine would cause inflation, inventing a new technoligy that allows to produce more goods at the same costs would mean deflation.
the gold standard is a terrible idea. it was necessary in countries with an absolute monarchy or some dictatorship, because else everyone in power could produce as much money as they want, but in a modern western country with an relativly independent central bank it no longer is.
One of the reasons for choosing gold is it's stability. A new goldmine is unlikely to make a dent in the national vaults. But any stable material goods can serve. A gold standard also puts limitations on the government, in that it can't just print more money and thus cause inflation, as people would demand their gold.
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Unread 28 Aug 2003, 01:34   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by W
One of the reasons for choosing gold is it's stability. A new goldmine is unlikely to make a dent in the national vaults. But any stable material goods can serve. A gold standard also puts limitations on the government, in that it can't just print more money and thus cause inflation, as people would demand their gold.
so you have more goods and the same amount of money, that means deflation and is bad, we already had that i think.
no goverment with any economical sence just goes along and prints lots of more money, even if some goverments still could do such stupid things. we tried that in the 20s here, it didnt exactly work out.
an economy needs a moderate rate of inflation, 1-3 %. this makes people spend their money and companies invest. a very usefull tool to control the inflation rates is setting interest rates at a central bank. a long economical boom like in the 90s in the us would not be possible with a gold standard, there would be enough money around and the price for money would dramatically increase, and by doing so stop all economical growth.
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Unread 28 Aug 2003, 01:58   #87
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In classical economics, the only effect (predictable) inflation has is to make numbers different than they would otherwise be. You could take a video of a society with zero inflation and run a script to replace every price p at time t with the adjusted price p*f(t) where f is the effect of inflation. Everyone's value judgements are the same. Only the numbers change.

Keynesian economics is based on the effects that a change in price has when there is no change in value. eg.
money illusion: if the inflation is not predictable then people think their money is worth more than it is
sticky wages: people seem to hate it when their wages fall, even if their real wages rise. (I like "Evolutionary Psychology and the Just Price" as a partial explanation)
menu costs: deflation means mcdonalds have to change their prices every so often which has a real cost

that sort of thing
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Unread 28 Aug 2003, 09:38   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by W
One of the reasons for choosing gold is it's stability. A new goldmine is unlikely to make a dent in the national vaults. But any stable material goods can serve. A gold standard also puts limitations on the government, in that it can't just print more money and thus cause inflation, as people would demand their gold.
Wasn't Germany on the gold standard when they had hyperinflation in the 1920's?
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Unread 28 Aug 2003, 10:06   #89
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Originally posted by queball
that sort of thing
I've often thought that higher inflation economies might force higher levels of solidarity amongst workers. In a zero-inflation economy, I doubt many workers would feel the need to join a union. If inflation was at 10% (or 100%) per annum then unions would be far more relevent. I'm not sure how much the empirical evidence bears that out though, and it'd be difficult to determine causation.
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Unread 28 Aug 2003, 10:37   #90
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Wasn't Germany on the gold standard when they had hyperinflation in the 1920's?
It was exactly because they left the gold standard that they had hyperinflation. The German central bank simply started printing money without any backing of gold in vaults.


BTW, I recently found out, Keynes actually spoke out against the gold standard many times. Reading some of those disagreeing with his ideas, I can't help but get the impression that I'm still right, and you and Keynes both are wrong.
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Unread 28 Aug 2003, 10:51   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by W
It was exactly because they left the gold standard that they had hyperinflation. The German central bank simply started printing money without any backing of gold in vaults.
that was the goverment, there was no independent central bank back then, which was the main problem.
Hitler used the same method to pay for all the things he did (but he also fixed the prices, so that there was no inflation) nevertheless the economy would have imploded, even if without ww2.
after the war the allies had the brilliant idea to make the central bank completly independend of the goverment, so that such a thing couldnt happen again and its only goal was to fight inflation. it turned out that this system was pretty good. even without any gold standard the currency was relativly stabel, compared to countries with goverments having control on the central banks.
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Unread 28 Aug 2003, 10:57   #92
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I've often thought that higher inflation economies might force higher levels of solidarity amongst workers. In a zero-inflation economy, I doubt many workers would feel the need to join a union. If inflation was at 10% (or 100%) per annum then unions would be far more relevent. I'm not sure how much the empirical evidence bears that out though, and it'd be difficult to determine causation.
i dont think there is a relation. we used to have very low inflation rates, but a high level of organisation between the workers.
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Unread 28 Aug 2003, 11:13   #93
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Originally posted by W
BTW, I recently found out, Keynes actually spoke out against the gold standard many times. Reading some of those disagreeing with his ideas, I can't help but get the impression that I'm still right, and you and Keynes both are wrong.
Keynes probably didn't like the gold standard because at the time it was hindering Britain. The pound was valued way too high because of it (this was the fault of the government that introduced it, not an inherent problem in a gold standard) and nobody really cared that it helped to control inflation since deflation was the main pre-war problem.

The gold standard definitely has its merits, especially if the government and central bank are wildly incompetent. It is very inflexible though and would probably be a disaster if introduced into modern day economies.
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