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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 01:40   #51
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
a flak alliance has it's own command, and are under no obligation to do as the bigger alliance says (whether or not they chose to be muppets is their call)
what do they do?

if they defend the bigger alliance more than once, that is a breach of the rule, or at least it should be.
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Last edited by lokken; 18 Apr 2007 at 01:47.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 02:25   #52
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
what do they do?

if they defend the bigger alliance more than once, that is a breach of the rule, or at least it should be.
I'd agree in the instance of defending ppl from another ally...I believe he meant attack cooperation, though I may have misunderstood
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 02:52   #53
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

hmm, if WP have that many people, how come they are so few now.

dont they know, that allys get only the score its members got while beeing ally members?
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 05:22   #54
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

It amazes you sometimes doesn't it.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 05:25   #55
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Thanks for your decision Fiery, and personal explanation on IRC. At least alliances now know within what limits they must operate to adhere to the rules and avoid member closure.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 07:56   #56
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Since this support rule also covers attacking, i guess we can kiss any coorperation between alliances good bye, or any attempt to fight a coordinated war against a bigger opponent. Since the alliances (and perhaps friends) will be knowingly attacking together.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 08:29   #57
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

That is incorrect Wandows as far as I read it. It states that any alliance with extra planets attacking and defending is in breach. It does not state that any alliance cooperating in attacks with another separate alliance is in breach.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 08:40   #58
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

I just want to have it clear. The post from Fiery doesn't mention the support planet being part of another alliance / tag, nor any other rules applying in that case. So i assume it means that regardless of where that planet officially plays (alone, in another alliance), as long as it attacks with or defends alliance X without being in its tag, galaxy or cluster, it is in breach of the support rule.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 08:52   #59
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

I say power to those who rally anough force to do what they want ingame.
Personaly i dont mind eventhough they are sending 9 waves on entire galaxies
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 09:15   #60
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Hey - if someone wants a battle of 2 v 1... Lets give them one. (Rally up 240 planets )
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 12:20   #61
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
I just want to have it clear. The post from Fiery doesn't mention the support planet being part of another alliance / tag, nor any other rules applying in that case. So i assume it means that regardless of where that planet officially plays (alone, in another alliance), as long as it attacks with or defends alliance X without being in its tag, galaxy or cluster, it is in breach of the support rule.
I think the main jist of Fierys post was point c in the part of the EULA that was quoted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiery
(c) As newer methods of cheating are discovered, you authorise us to interpret
all data logged about your account towards detecting these methods. Actions which
are deemed to be cheating are not restricted to the list given on this
EULA and may be added to at any time, and you authorise us to do so.
I think this basically says that you can be closed for anything as long as the MH team feel that it is cheating.

Kind of worrying really but i guess thats been part of the EULA for a long time. To reiterate my original point, WolfPack (as i see it) have not broken any rules but it would appear that popular opinion has influenced decision makers into enforcing rules which do not in fact exist as such.

The alliance limit isnt a rule, its hard coded into the game and therefore surely if there is a way round it then the people at fault are the coders, not the players. If PATeam want only planets in tag to be able to attack/defend together, they should code it this way (though i wouldnt see this as a step in the right direction).
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 14:10   #62
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef!
The alliance limit isnt a rule, its hard coded into the game and therefore surely if there is a way round it then the people at fault are the coders, not the players. If PATeam want only planets in tag to be able to attack/defend together, they should code it this way (though i wouldnt see this as a step in the right direction).
Its no fault of coders, the alliance limit was explicitly introduced way back to try and keep as level a playing field as possible in response to player complaints as i recall. Its not there because of any limitation in the code itself and how it handles alliances.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 14:19   #63
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

PA has had such a vivacious tenure under the influence of whichever group of moaning gimps is loudest.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 15:25   #64
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Its no fault of coders, the alliance limit was explicitly introduced way back to try and keep as level a playing field as possible in response to player complaints as i recall. Its not there because of any limitation in the code itself and how it handles alliances.
Actually it is. If you build a feature in, for whatever reason, you should make sure it can only be used the way you intend it to be used. If you do locate a problem with the code that causes it to be used in other ways than you intended, you note it down and get it fixed for the next update/round.

Support planets are something that i guess never was expected to happen with fixed alliance limits, as who in their right mind would want to play a game defending (or escorting or scanning for) an alliance without getting anything in return. When it became clear some scanners and (inactive) players who otherwise wouldn't play where willing to be out of tag support, leaving more room for stronger players in the tag, it was suddenly all bad and a utterly unfair advantage. While infact they just used an option, offered by the game, which no one else had realised as a possibility.

If you don't want support planets, either ban planets ingame from supporting another alliance through coded restrictions or change the alliance feature in a way that makes support planets simply not worth having. But that requires alot of insight on how features can be (ab)used, and we all know that PaTeam isn't very good in that aspect. Leading to alot of features being poorly designed, because the consequences of them haven't been fully tested or noticed.

And ofcourse the perfect way to fix all that, is by simply adding hundreds of rules that have to be interpreted and enforced by human beings who are influenced by public outcry for "justice", their mood and whatever other justification they think they have for closing a planet.

By adding all sorts of rules or exceptions that are not sorted in the game, you only make the game worse to play as you end up constantly checking if you don't break some rule instead of spending time using the best of what the game has to offer to win. The EULA should only cover obvious (and out of game / uncontrollable) forms of cheating, being: multying, account sharing, farming and hacking. Anything else should be regarded as legitimate game feature and should be used without any person needing to interfere. If its bad, fix the feature, instead of making rules to cover it up.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 15:34   #65
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
Actually it is. If you build a feature in, for whatever reason, you should make sure it can only be used the way you intend it to be used. If you do locate a problem with the code that causes it to be used in other ways than you intended, you note it down and get it fixed for the next update/round.
You misunderstood me. I was on about the technical aspects of implementing alliance limits in the code, not the underlying design of what the limits were for.
The design is sound though, it does limit one specific alliance tag to a maximum number of players - the problem is with players who are always pushing and bending the existing rules in order to get an advantage over others. This is not a fault of the code, its a fault of the players competetiveness and perhaps, the lack of desire to play fairly with other players.
If it is not possible to code an alteration to the game to enforce fair play, a temporary rule to cover it in the mean time is acceptable - so long as it is infact temporary and hardcoded within a few development cycles
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 15:54   #66
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

There's nothing inherently unfair about anything except discriminatory policies.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 15:55   #67
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

That totally depends on the definition of fair. Competetive players looks for the easiest/best way to win, by that they look at what the game has to offer and how that can be used to their advantage. Is it wrong that players want to be better than others? Why shouldn't they be allowed to use all game features as they are in game? If a feature can be used a certain way, its apparantly not regarded as a bug or unwanted option, because if it was it would either be fixed or not be there to use.

If you take the alliance limit for example, it was (like you said) meant to level the playing field, boring but ok. Alliance were given the -1 eta to make it 'needed' to tag up for effective defence, next to that a alliance ranking was added, which added all the score from the tagged players to their end ranking to allow them to win the round by having the most score combined. And since score can only be obtained by attacking, the focus inevitably shifts to attacks, leading to defence becoming a problem. Now some groups of players apparantly found others willing to give their time to support the alliance without getting anything in return, if they are, why shouldn't they be allowed to play the way they like?

Because it gives an unfair advantage is the answer. But why is it unfair? Because others were to stupid to realise it? Because others were unable to find such support themselves? You win a game by becoming the strongest, through strategy, activity, or sheer numbers. As long as you don't cheat (as said above: multi, farm, hack), any feature should be free to use as it is presented by the game. It might mean some alliance will win by a mile, but if that is a problem, we can raise it with the game coders/designers to come up with a solution in the design and make the game work like they want it to work.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 15:58   #68
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
You misunderstood me. I was on about the technical aspects of implementing alliance limits in the code, not the underlying design of what the limits were for.
The design is sound though, it does limit one specific alliance tag to a maximum number of players - the problem is with players who are always pushing and bending the existing rules in order to get an advantage over others. This is not a fault of the code, its a fault of the players competetiveness and perhaps, the lack of desire to play fairly with other players.
If it is not possible to code an alteration to the game to enforce fair play, a temporary rule to cover it in the mean time is acceptable - so long as it is infact temporary and hardcoded within a few development cycles
Basically, whatever Phil wants is right, because Phil wants it.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 16:05   #69
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Basically, whatever Phil wants is right, because Phil wants it.
dont be daft.
Phil really couldnt care less what happens - if i did i would have a planet and would be playing.
Nice of you to resort to ad hominem though, it shows you care enough about me to insult
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 16:08   #70
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
dont be daft.
Phil really couldnt care less what happens - if i did i would have a planet and would be playing.
Nice of you to resort to ad hominem though.
How is that ad hominem?
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 16:10   #71
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attacking the person, not the argument. Re-read your post with that in mind and im sure it will become perfectly obvious
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 16:13   #72
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attacking the person, not the argument. Re-read your post with that in mind and im sure it will become perfectly obvious
I don't think he was trying to attack you as person, but your way of argumenting your claims.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 16:18   #73
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
I don't think he was trying to attack you as person, but your way of argumenting your claims.
He's waaay off if that was his intention. Im not trying to *push* any one way of doing things, merely stating an opinion.
Hell, how can i push anything. I dont have any authority to do so, nor an account to have a vested interest with in what happens

unless of course thats suddenly forbidden round these parts when that view does not fit in with the new world order of gameplay through anarchy?
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 16:23   #74
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attacking the person, not the argument. Re-read your post with that in mind and im sure it will become perfectly obvious
Nope. Your argument was that whatever you thought was justifiable, was justifiable. I summarized this in a somewhat (but not very) sarcastic fashion, as this is AD and I wanted to look cool.

Edit: reading your reply to Keizari, I can see you misunderstood. I'm not saying you're trying to push one way of doing things.

Edit2: I guess I could expand on the point if you'd like, but these days I try to avoid deconstructionism on the one hand and arguing with people who engage in conversational flak on the other.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 16:39   #75
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

There is a way of playing, I can't define it but I can recognise it when I see it and I can see that it's not when it isn't and this is what I wish PA to be legislated by.

Or, as jester says, what phil wants is right, because he wants it.


The specific difficult as I've stated innumerable times before is that alliances are not necessarily tags or vice versa.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 16:52   #76
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
There is a way of playing, I can't define it but I can recognise it when I see it and I can see that it's not when it isn't and this is what I wish PA to be legislated by.

Or, as jester says, what phil wants is right, because he wants it.
... except, as i have said above im not in a position to be pushing anything - nor am i even trying to force anything on anyone.
All you get is an opinion and if you disagree then fair enough, I dont particularly care if you agree with me or not.

Of course, this little detail is best ignored when you want to bury dissenting views to the new world order through taking the piss just incase someone else might agree with or listen to them.

There are no perfect solutions. On one hand you have enforced limits in the game to keep the playing field level and to define in code what the developers think the game should be. its a cat and mouse game to come up with things before 'the bad guys' do, and if they do figure something out - to code a way to prevent it if its deemed unfair.

On the other extreme is the 'anything goes' system. You do what you want - players determine what the game should be, and developers are forced to ignore those who may feel wronged by the developers of the game because you sure dont want to get involved in all that. Problem is that players are never able to form a collective, coherent idea. There will be conflicting views and ultimately the loudest people would win any arguments for how to proceed. These people essentially replace pateam and dictate to developers what to do with the game

A compromise position is to reactively ban the worst kinds of abuses, but turn a relative blind eye to others. its more work but allows finer grain judgement on matters. The flipside is that because judgement is required on individual cases there is the possibility of influence.

None of these systems work to please *everyone*.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 17:03   #77
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Noone seems to have suggested the simple answer : Make it so that you can only defend your galmates and your alliance mates, therefore negating all benefit of defence from support planets incluster. This would also spice up clusters as well instead of all the naps.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 17:05   #78
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
Noone seems to have suggested the simple answer : Make it so that you can only defend your galmates and your alliance mates, therefore negating all benefit of defence from support planets incluster. This would also spice up clusters as well instead of all the naps.
That is essentially the hardcoded solution which was suggested the first time support planets were a problem.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 17:09   #79
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
... except, as i have said above im not in a position to be pushing anything - nor am i even trying to force anything on anyone.
All you get is an opinion and if you disagree then fair enough, I dont particularly care if you agree with me or not.
That's fantastically irrelevant. Luckily in an argument when you're putting forward views it doesn't matter if you don't care if the other care agrees or not. It matters if the views you put forward are logically coherent.

Quote:
Of course, this little detail is best ignored when you want to bury dissenting views to the new world order through taking the piss just incase someone else might agree with or listen to them.
Dissenting is not the same as having undefined and unclear foundations for your view.

Quote:
There are no perfect solutions. On one hand you have enforced limits in the game to keep the playing field level and to define in code what the developers think the game should be. its a cat and mouse game to come up with things before 'the bad guys' do, and if they do figure something out - to code a way to prevent it if its deemed unfair.
There are no bad guys. It's a game. Deeming something unfair is enforcing an arbitrary, after the fact, moral system on the game.

Quote:
On the other extreme is the 'anything goes' system. You do what you want - players determine what the game should be, and developers are forced to ignore those who may feel wronged by the developers of the game because you sure dont want to get involved in all that. Problem is that players are never able to form a collective, coherent idea. There will be conflicting views and ultimately the loudest people would win any arguments for how to proceed.
Development!=Legislation

Quote:
A compromise position is to reactively ban the worst kinds of abuses, but turn a relative blind eye to others. its more work but allows finer grain judgement on matters. The flipside is that because judgement is required on individual cases there is the possibility of influence.

None of these systems work to please *everyone*.
Systems in a game shouldn't be about pleasing people to the detriment of others through banning certain actions. This is inevitably counter-productive and detrimental to the game in the long run as the game becomes formulaic, uncreative, dull, predictable, boring and a host of other adjectives I'm not really bothered listing.

I understand that because this is the internet you've probably already clicked the quote button in order to disagree with everything I just said without even bothering to reconsider anything or actually read my post first but please try and think about what I'm saying.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 17:09   #80
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

I mean in about the last 5 years ive played i cant remember ever deffing anyone that wasnt in my alliance/gal so wheres the need for that feature?
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 17:51   #81
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
Noone seems to have suggested the simple answer : Make it so that you can only defend your galmates and your alliance mates, therefore negating all benefit of defence from support planets incluster. This would also spice up clusters as well instead of all the naps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
That is essentially the hardcoded solution which was suggested the first time support planets were a problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
I mean in about the last 5 years ive played i cant remember ever deffing anyone that wasnt in my alliance/gal so wheres the need for that feature?
It might be an easy solution but that doesn't make it an equitable solution. Many players have old friends in the game that they're not in the same alliance as, but they may still want to defend them or attack them for fun.

Why should we turn this into a game where you can only attack/defend who the game says you can attack or defend? The bash limit and the principles behind it are fairly well thought out and defined. You can't say the same for the support planet rule.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 18:04   #82
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

The day defense and attacks with people outside your alliance is prohibited, I'm going to taking my credit card and sod of.


Soon there will only be two buttons left in game. attack and defend.
The rest is left to the pot smoking monkies running & maintaining planetarion.
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 19:44   #83
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

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Originally Posted by Allfather
Soon there will only be two buttons left in game. attack and defend.The rest is left to the pot smoking monkies running & maintaining planetarion.
I actually tried to suggest appoco we disable defences after last round.
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Unread 19 Apr 2007, 08:44   #84
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Systems in a game shouldn't be about pleasing people to the detriment of others through banning certain actions.
Yes, having so few ruin it for so many is the way forward.
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