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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 16:09   #51
Heartless
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
If we wanted to do everything suggested in the OP, but we were unable to do it all in one go, what would be the best order to make the changes in?
I'd say either "Alliance member limit", "Scoring", "Shipstats", "Exile" OR "Alliance member limit", "Shipstats", "Scoring", "Exile".

The first suggestion assumes that you won't implement these things for r21 but rather r22. The second suggestion assumes that you will implement alliance member limit and ship stat change for r21 and the rest for r22.

Third option would be what Alki suggested. But I guess that's overkill to ask from PA Team.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 16:35   #52
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
If we wanted to do everything suggested in the OP, but we were unable to do it all in one go, what would be the best order to make the changes in?
In order of coding complexity, implemented with the least possible amount of work. You're in a much better position than me to say which these are. My reasoning is that since the changes complement each other, as many as possible should be implemented at the same time. Implementing those that require least work first ensures that this is the case.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 16:44   #53
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
In order of coding complexity, implemented with the least possible amount of work. You're in a much better position than me to say which these are. My reasoning is that since the changes complement each other, as many as possible should be implemented at the same time. Implementing those that require least work first ensures that this is the case.
well things like alliance limit, ship stats, and exile are probabaly relativly easy - the scoring system is the complex one.

I was thinking about this all earlier while having a chat with someone, he raised several issues with simply removing the alliance limit. I was however thinking "ah, but if yopu have that clever new score system a lot of the problems go away".

So my theory, somewhat contradicts the other suggestions - I think that its scoring that needs to be done first. I think that if we had a detailed design, coding it for r22 probabaly wouldn't be that much of a problem. But this means we would need to get a detailed design together in the next few weeks - and as I suggested in Heartless' thread, I have no idea how to actually do about having such a score system.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 16:58   #54
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
well things like alliance limit, ship stats, and exile are probabaly relativly easy - the scoring system is the complex one.

I was thinking about this all earlier while having a chat with someone, he raised several issues with simply removing the alliance limit. I was however thinking "ah, but if yopu have that clever new score system a lot of the problems go away".

So my theory, somewhat contradicts the other suggestions - I think that its scoring that needs to be done first. I think that if we had a detailed design, coding it for r22 probabaly wouldn't be that much of a problem. But this means we would need to get a detailed design together in the next few weeks - and as I suggested in Heartless' thread, I have no idea how to actually do about having such a score system.
You raise some interesting points, but before I reply, could you clarify that last sentence? The grammar isn't parsing for me and I'm having trouble guessing what you mean
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 17:45   #55
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
You raise some interesting points, but before I reply, could you clarify that last sentence? The grammar isn't parsing for me and I'm having trouble guessing what you mean
What I'm saying is I think Heartless' score system is an excelent idea. BUT I have no idea how to go about doing it. We need to define:
-what actions should gain score
-how much score each of theese should gain
-how alliances should gain score:
--should it be the sum of member scores?
--should it be based around alliance actions rather than individual member actions?
- how galaxies should gain score

Score is a big and complex thing, but the core of the entire game, it needs serious and detailed thought and I don't think PATeam or anyone else for that matter can do it alone.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 19:10   #56
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
What I'm saying is I think Heartless' score system is an excelent idea. BUT I have no idea how to go about doing it. We need to define:
-what actions should gain score
-how much score each of theese should gain
-how alliances should gain score:
--should it be the sum of member scores?
--should it be based around alliance actions rather than individual member actions?
- how galaxies should gain score

Score is a big and complex thing, but the core of the entire game, it needs serious and detailed thought and I don't think PATeam or anyone else for that matter can do it alone.
I don't think score should be broken down into specific rewards for specific actions. This dictates policy rather than mechanism, which is much less open-ended. I think being open-ended is an advantage, because it allows for more creative action. Consider the demand for change in the Planetarion system vs innovative alliance play. Consider implementing mechanism a way to make alliances fill the former demand by making players and alliances supply it.

(For other readers, I had a quick discussion with Kal about all this on IRC and he asked me to post how I'd specifically implement the score changes I discussed in the OP.)

Quote:
A good case is made for a new scoring system in this thread. In it, Heartless suggests that score should be based on spent resources rather than anything else. An amendment that would allow PAteam to remove the restrictions on galaxy and alliance donations would be that score is based on resources mined from asteroids only. It is important that it is gained only from mining asteroids, since there is already a very strong incentive to initiate few asteroids and rely on refineries to make up for this.
In short: Two possibilities with some adjustable variables. One rewards mining, the other rewards spending. The differences are subtle, with varying advantages and disadvantages. One thing they have in common is that overflow needs to be stored so that players aren't screwed over by rounding. The example here is that if a player earns 1.99 score per tick, the extra .99 needs to be carried over so that he doesn't lose .99 score every tick.

Score for spent resources
For every 100 resources spent, 1 score is gained*. This rewards scanners, who gain score equivalent to buying ships for every scan they perform. This rewards covert operation specialists, who can gain large amounts of resources through covert operations and gain score while doing so. A key point here is that all actions taken give exactly the same amount of score. Whether a player buys ships, scans himself endlessly, performs failed covert operations, buys constructions and so on, the resources are spent and the score is gained. It doesn't matter where the resources came from, be it refineries, covops, asteroids or donations.

This system rewards any action that results in the gain of resources. Planet score becomes about generating the highest overall resource revenue for the round. Galaxy and alliance score become about the same thing: having the planets that generate the greatest overall revenue for the round. Pressure will be on alliances to hit fat alliances early on. That is, when they become fat rather than when they become ripe. To explain this last bit, consider ND vs EXilition in round 15. ND were left until the last week to hit, with this system they would've been untouchable for victory if left alone for that long. But in the XP system, EXilition made huge gains from hitting high value, high roidcount ND planets.

Score from mined resources
This system gives 1 score for every 100 resources mined. Minor details include whether to count only resources mined from asteroids and whether to count engineering/FC bonuses. This system has the advantage of allowing donations without any of the current limitations, since the score will already have been gained from the resources. This encourages cooperation.

Disadvantages of this system are that players are rewarded regardless of whether they spend the resources; completely inactive players would gain the score and players would retain score from resources lost to covops. Along the same lines, covoppers would not gain score from the resources they steal. This last bit could be changed, by specifically reallocating score in these cases.

Whether to take resources from refineries, engineering bonus or FC bonus into account is a big deal. Remember, under this system, resources are still their own reward. Refineries, engineering and FCs will allow a player to build a larger fleet for use in gaining and holding roids. However, giving score only from raw roid revenue would make the game very heavily about capping. It's possible to mix and match, but in my opinion, rewarding refineries, FCs and engineering is a mark of policy rather than mechanism. If only roids give score, then the game becomes about using engineering and constructions (among many other thinsg) to gain and hold roids. This is another big advantage of granting score for mined resources over score for spent resources.

These two methods both fulfill the goals Heartless's post outline, by providing a mechanism for score rather specific micromanaging rewards. I dare say that the alliance that wins a round with this score system will have to sustain a good deal of pressure to come out victorious.

A side point is the bash limit. Since value is independent of score, it's tempting to revert to 40% value only. However, this would again open for 'abuse' situations where top100 planets artificially lower their value to avoid being hit by direct competitors. Losing roids is less bad if they're lost to a plethora of tiny attackers. Personally, I don't believe the bash limit is useful, but at the very worst the bash limit should be maintained in its current form.

* The exact relationship here doesn't need to be 100:1, I'm just picking that because it's the current relationship between spent resources and value.
Spending resources covers almost every action in Planetarion.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 19:21   #57
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

So, for example then as far as combat is conerend, is the incentive to cap as many roids as possible (almost) regardless of the cost?

Does that not mean though that people will end up going for the smallest possible target with the most roids i.e. hit fat targets on the bash limit boundary?

In essence I'm worried that the "benefit" of XP becomes lost.

One clarification on alliances - should the score be either:
sum of score of current members
or
score gained from members while they were in alliance
or
score gained from current members while in alliance
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 19:33   #58
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
So, for example then as far as combat is conerend, is the incentive to cap as many roids as possible (almost) regardless of the cost?

Does that not mean though that people will end up going for the smallest possible target with the most roids i.e. hit fat targets on the bash limit boundary?

In essence I'm worried that the "benefit" of XP becomes lost.
I'm not sure XP had the touted benefit in rounds where value dominated XP. However, there is a very strong incentive to take roids away from a planet, galaxy or alliance that is a threat. In essence, these roids are worth twice as much as roids taken from independent sources.

Some players will naturally go for fat targets at the bash limit. But will these players and/or alliances always win? I think that question is more open than at first is obvious. All alliances will always have counter-measures for these things. Allowing an alliance to roid fat targets continually is a conscious choice by competitor alliances, even when they feel forced into it.

Quote:
One clarification on alliances - should the score be either:
sum of score of current members
or
score gained from members while they were in alliance
or
score gained from current members while in alliance
I'm really not sure. As an alliance HC, I'm annoyed every time I add a player who's been in a tag previously. Sometimes this has been solo tags without any actual game implications, which seems a bit pointless. When we lose a player, I don't feel any better for their next alliance not gaining more score.

However, on a game balance level, I do see the advantages of the current system. Honestly, I didn't assume any change in it. In other words, I assumed score to be the sum of that gained by its current members since they last left previous tags (if any).
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 19:39   #59
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

I would prefer resources spent as it rewards scanners and cov ops, but that _could_ lead to donation wars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
So, for example then as far as combat is conerend, is the incentive to cap as many roids as possible (almost) regardless of the cost?

Does that not mean though that people will end up going for the smallest possible target with the most roids i.e. hit fat targets on the bash limit boundary?

In essence I'm worried that the "benefit" of XP becomes lost.
This will certainly happen to some extend, but then again it happens anyway that there are a lot of people which prefer to hit around their bash limit since they aren't interested in XP that much.
However, it is important to remember that when you cannot lose score you have to play pro-actively against your competition. This includes taking away roids from your direct opponents as opposed to do the standard galaxy raids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
One clarification on alliances - should the score be either:
sum of score of current members
or
score gained from members while they were in alliance
or
score gained from current members while in alliance
That's a minor detail right now and has nothing to do with the way how score is calculated.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 19:43   #60
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

From reasing the last few posts, I personally would be in favour of the resources spent option and the current alliance score system.

One question though - perhaps donations shouldn't count as resources spent?
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 19:46   #61
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
One clarification on alliances - should the score be either:
sum of score of current members
or
score gained from members while they were in alliance
or
score gained from current members while in alliance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
I'm really not sure. As an alliance HC, I'm annoyed every time I add a player who's been in a tag previously. Sometimes this has been solo tags without any actual game implications, which seems a bit pointless. When we lose a player, I don't feel any better for their next alliance not gaining more score.

However, on a game balance level, I do see the advantages of the current system. Honestly, I didn't assume any change in it. In other words, I assumed score to be the sum of that gained by its current members since they last left previous tags (if any).
Personally I'd go back to the "sum of score of current members" policy. This is because I believe that an alliance tag should simply represent the members within it, rather than being a separate entity that holds its own score. A separate suggestion in progress has proposed that alliances are unable to recruit members in the last week of a round, which may do something towards nullifying last-minute recruitment efforts as seen in most previous rounds.



I'm still thinking about the rest, so I'll come back to it later. One small point though - you'll need to get rid of the alliance fund if you use the score for spending resources option.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 19:47   #62
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
One question though - perhaps donations shouldn't count as resources spent?
Donations shouldnt count as resources spent, no.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 19:49   #63
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I'm still thinking about the rest, so I'll come back to it later. One small point though - you'll need to get rid of the alliance fund if you use the score for spending resources option.
No, you wouldn't. You'd just have to say that the alliance fund is there for a) trade and b) donating to players which are below the average alliance score. This makes it fairly unlikely for donation wars at the end of a round I'd guess; even though I'd expect it to happen.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 20:08   #64
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
From reasing the last few posts, I personally would be in favour of the resources spent option and the current alliance score system.

One question though - perhaps donations shouldn't count as resources spent?
This might work actually, perhaps by stopping a planet's score from going up once they're donated X resources, until they've spent enough of their own resources to exceed [score prior to donation] + X. This is superior to subtracting the donated resources' equivalent score from the planet's score (which would be annoying and have potential abuse complications).


For example, Planet A's score is currently 1 million. He gets donated 5 million resources from his galaxy/alliance, all of which he spends on ships. This equates to 50k score. Until he spends enough resources to reach what would have been 1.05m score (as if he hadn't been donated to), his score doesn't increase from 1 million.


Does that make any sense at all?
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 20:40   #65
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Sounds interesting.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 21:59   #66
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
This might work actually, perhaps by stopping a planet's score from going up once they're donated X resources, until they've spent enough of their own resources to exceed [score prior to donation] + X. This is superior to subtracting the donated resources' equivalent score from the planet's score (which would be annoying and have potential abuse complications).


For example, Planet A's score is currently 1 million. He gets donated 5 million resources from his galaxy/alliance, all of which he spends on ships. This equates to 50k score. Until he spends enough resources to reach what would have been 1.05m score (as if he hadn't been donated to), his score doesn't increase from 1 million.


Does that make any sense at all?
so you mean, simply put that you don't gain score from donated resources?
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 22:18   #67
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

yeah i think he does, he was just giving us a picture
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 22:21   #68
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Exactly, I just thought I'd flesh it out a bit by providing a mechanism to do it as well.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 22:25   #69
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Maybe a vastly reduced score gain from donated resources? Something like 100000:1 instead of the 100:1 (using the example figure given), as scanners mainly use the alliance fund now instead of their own resources, this would give them at least some (tiny) score gain for their work. Or maybe figure out a different approach for scans.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 22:33   #70
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

I don't mind scans being part of resources spent, since those resources will have to come from planetary sources in the first place (roids and constructions).

But regarding your main point of granting a small score gain from donated resources, why grant one at all? I'd prefer to penalise donations and make it so that they're only used in vital circumstances(e.g. mass incoming on a planet, e.g. a fleetcatch, or to get new planets up and running.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 23:13   #71
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

If donations are such a big problem, why not just grant score from mining instead? It's easy to reward covoppers instantly, while simultaneously deducting that score from the target. In fact, it's easier to deduct score when someone gives away the resource, and credit anyone who receives the resource if one so desires in any situation.

Mind you, I'm not worried about either the galaxy fund or the alliance fund being abused as they currently stand. I'm just trying to think of how to remove those limitations (bar the 8 tick limit on the alliance fund) without returning to round 3 and Singularity.
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Unread 18 Mar 2007, 23:54   #72
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

dont get it :/ does tnat mean you can have shitloads with ships and no value -> score? its gonna be a new and daft way to dodge the bashlimits and/or get loads with xp with circulating your res in the fund
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Unread 19 Mar 2007, 03:14   #73
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

jester u have way to much time on ur hands dude
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Unread 19 Mar 2007, 11:49   #74
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
dont get it :/ does tnat mean you can have shitloads with ships and no value -> score? its gonna be a new and daft way to dodge the bashlimits and/or get loads with xp with circulating your res in the fund
As you can see from my post about this, I advocate keeping the current score based bash limits (or in fact removing bash limits entirely) with this system. Laundering the resources through the funds is not problematic. In one system you already have the score and laundering it through the fund does nothing. In the other you don't get the score until you spend it on something (ships, scans, covops, structures etc) so laundering it through the fund does nothing.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 11:36   #75
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Due to the recent rise of the support planet rule discussion, I'd like to bump this thread again and once again show my support towards removing the alliance limit.

Instead of creating grey ares of what might not be allowed to do, and thus allowing some people to get away with an advantage while others are not allowed this advantage, the game should be as easy to understand as possible.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 11:49   #76
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Likewise.
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Unread 3 Oct 2010, 02:13   #77
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

People should read this post again. Seriously.
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Unread 3 Oct 2010, 03:32   #78
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Alliance Limits:

I believe that success of the new "Alliance Points" system that is currently being tested, would lead to the removal of alliance player limits.
So a small 30 man BG (DLR) could effectively win a round.

Unit Stats
I agree that the current "Races" needs to be looked at, with the option to open up special tech in the research tree (per the LDD).
I also know its time to change "resist" to "emp armor (shields)".
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Unread 3 Oct 2010, 10:31   #79
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

"success".
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Unread 3 Oct 2010, 11:40   #80
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

I've just reread the thread (including my own post) and I still agree with Jester. But I'm still tired and have manflu, so can't offer a long considered response as promised
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Unread 3 Oct 2010, 14:24   #81
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

I hadnt noticed this thread but i tend to agree with most of the changes, although.. heavily disagree with some.

1. The alliance tag? I dislike it in the game but i dont really mind it if its set at 100+. It allows for semi-big alliances while making sure no-one can over-recruit. The only time i hate the tag, is when its set too small.

2. Shipstats are too complicated, while i agree they are and agree with the solution. I find the reason for the change is that races are too complicated at tick 0, rather than it just being shipstats. I hate the idea of races and much prefer choice through tech-tree options rather than just choosing 1 of 5 races.

I wouldnt mind a compromise of races + common ships, infact that was the solution i came up with in my redesign document as its pretty clear that the Pa Team will never get rid of races. Its just a problem of how would you disribute the common ships? Would they be the first ships you research? then you pick a race after for race specific ships? Do you pick a race at tick 0 still and the race specific ships are scattered throughout the tech-tree so some are early and some are late-game. Or just keep the hulls research style and pick a race at tick 0 and get the common fi/co ships and the race fi/co ships when you research fi/co hulls?

I'd personally prefer to do it with common ships first, then race specific ships later on in the game. It will allow for an evolution of the meta-game and give an extra incentive for research speed.

3. Scoring system? I originally wanted to just go back to pure value play but Mz spent afew days convincing me that score should be resources mined (including refinerys) which excludes salvage and donations. I didnt like the idea at first but now i quiet like it, it solves almost everything and isnt counter-intuitive, score you've earnt cant be taken away.

I'd personally want to hide 'value' in the game which is only visible through planet scans. So players cant instantly see how strong everyone else is by just viewing the galaxy or universe screen.

4. Exiling? I agree exiling is broken but i'd personally go a different way.

First, i'd delete the galaxy exile option from the game. This is a random universe, you cannot exile people from your galaxy you dont like, i'd keep the exile yourself option, so if players dont like there galaxy they can leave.

This does 2 things, it stops galaxys from exiling casuals from their galaxy.. which encourages them to help anyone in their galaxy. Secondly, it stops galaxys from opening up spots in their galaxy for alliance members to exile into. Now if you want to exile, your exile truely is random.

As far as clusters goes, i'd delete the OOT defence rule and implement cluster defence eta bonuses which are equal to the alliance defence bonus. It may not always be used but its an option and encourages people to talk to other people in their cluster and if they choose to do that, then they are rewarded. We've got to get people talking to each other again, rather than only talking in galaxy and alliance channels.

I really dont like attacking ingal but im against any form of donations
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Unread 3 Oct 2010, 14:40   #82
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Keep in mind that OOT defence is disabled now. If you re-introduce cluster eta, you'd need to enable OOT defence as well. Mind you, that's something I'm in favour of doing anyway, but it's something to keep in mind.
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Unread 3 Oct 2010, 14:45   #83
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Re: What I'd change and how I'd do it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Keep in mind that OOT defence is disabled now. If you re-introduce cluster eta, you'd need to enable OOT defence as well. Mind you, that's something I'm in favour of doing anyway, but it's something to keep in mind.
I hate that rule anyway.

It was just put in as a reaction to people dedicating there round to defending but it effectively stopped any defence co-operation and ruined clusters as an option (yes, they wasnt used anymore but its still an option which could of been explored by highering the amount of gals in a cluster).

I think, if someone goes out and socialises with the universe.. then they should reep the rewards of doing so. While, if someone decided to only stick in their alliance channel.. then they're shutting off a portion of the game and are weaker for it.

I dont like people just signing up to defend someone but i dont really see how you would stop it. Most alliances arnt at 100% tag now, so they can still get people to do it if they want.
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