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Unread 11 Dec 2006, 23:42   #1
tombcfc
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Have Multihunters lost the plot??

It may just be me but lately expecially the last two rounds, it seems the multihunter team have lost the plot. I had to write this because its getting absolutely ridiculous.

Ive been playing a long time now and ive seen many peeps closed for cheating some way or another but im seeing many lagitemate people being closed for almost no reason what-so-ever, ive spoke to many peeps who have been wrongly closed because of a attacking fleet crashing on a planet, peeps roiding planets and being closed, even a member of the PA support team was closed by MISTAKE. Your always going to get peeps not waking up and finding they have crashed thier fleet, sent wrong ship etc but to closed without much hard evidence is madness!

We pay good money to play planetarion, now i dont know if the multihunter team have been told to follow strict guidelines, or have a quota to close a certain amount each round by jolt or the PA team, but PA is losing members and the mutihunters really are not helping. Some of the people who were closed this round for no reason will NOT be playing again, and to be honest i dont blame them, what a waste of money.

To me multihunters have no idea what their doing.

i want your views on this, thanks
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Unread 11 Dec 2006, 23:57   #2
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

the MH are pretty inconsistant with thier choices the only thing they are consistant at is being utter shite.

Remy threatened to close my planet ingame for messages sent over irc.

SCORE.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 00:00   #3
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

It seeme the multihunters have gone power mad and npw need no provercations to close ppl in over a hand full of those i know that this has happened to have been reopened due the the multi hunter team making a mistake or been too hasty...

At the start of havoc the multi hunter team started closing accounts that use proxy's to login...I myself have to use a proxy when i am at work forn it is the only way i can get through their firewalls and i would be very annoyed if i was closed, probely enough so not to come back to the game.

As thomus pointed out planetarion has been losing members for a very long time you would have to be blind if u have not noticed and something needs to be done, closing accounts for stupid reasons is not helping they are killing the game
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 00:02   #4
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

btw i know im shit and stuff and annoying and probably shouldnt post this but whatever.


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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 00:05   #5
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Have Multihunters lost the plot?

A long time ago.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 00:06   #6
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Sigh, i knew this was gonna hunt me.

I was a new MH, I made s stupid move, and i have learnt since then. So benneh, my apologies for that conversation. I am wiser now.

/me bows
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 00:07   #7
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by banky
It seeme the multihunters have gone power mad and npw need no provercations to close ppl in over a hand full of those i know that this has happened to have been reopened due the the multi hunter team making a mistake or been too hasty...

At the start of havoc the multi hunter team started closing accounts that use proxy's to login...I myself have to use a proxy when i am at work forn it is the only way i can get through their firewalls and i would be very annoyed if i was closed, probely enough so not to come back to the game.

As thomus pointed out planetarion has been losing members for a very long time you would have to be blind if u have not noticed and something needs to be done, closing accounts for stupid reasons is not helping they are killing the game

Ok, how long have you played PA for a start? If this is your first round then i am more then happy to take back my statement. However, if this is not your first round then you should know of the rules. Which state, if you dont actually speak to a MH regarding yourself needing to use a proxy to play PA in work you will be closed. This rule has bin inplemented as far back as i can remmember. So if they have closed people for this and they havent gone to them to tell them they are using a proxy for a valid reason fair play to them.

Now to tom. These 'people' you speak to. Do you really take what they say seriously? The amount of people i have saw come on here going on and on and on about how crap the MH's are etc, and there excuse is always 'well a friend told me why he was closed'. I once was caught for cheating in PA in my early days in PA, now coming from experience when we get caught and our alliances want to know whats going on, we of course will lie. We are not going to say 'oh well sorry guys, i stuffed up your chances of winning a round by cheating and fair play for the MHs for catching me'. No. Instead its more like 'Nah they set me up, they are incompetitent and are lieing' And ive said this before and ill say it again. Unless your the one involved in the case tom, please dont come on these forums bitching like a 4 year old.

The MH's do this volunterily, and i hold my hands upto them and sure perhaps they do make mistakes, but from my view they seem to be doing ok to me.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 00:09   #8
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benneh
btw i know im shit and stuff and annoying and probably shouldnt post this but whatever.


(url removed cause yeah ) pm me if you really want a log
wel he did say he loves u so maybe some hot man sex will sort it out for ya
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 00:47   #9
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

MH will NEVER get the right mix, its impossible to make everyone happy. SOme would like them to close supposed cheat planets quick etc. im suprised there has been no anti exi/angels flame yet *waits patiently*

as for stupid mistakes, i lost 5k cr r17 cos kloopy clicked the wrong button and closed me, meant i couldnt log into recall, or sumin similar anyway, was a while back lol.

i would rather see us support MH in what they are doing, its a tough job, but without them the game would be a whole lot worse
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 01:05   #10
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by banky
At the start of havoc the multi hunter team started closing accounts that use proxy's to login...I myself have to use a proxy when i am at work forn it is the only way i can get through their firewalls and i would be very annoyed if i was closed, probely enough so not to come back to the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Planetarion EULA & The sign up page

18.8. Evidence of Cheating
(a) Use of proxies and anonymizers.

[] I accept user agreement (Read below)
You tick the box saying you agree to the EULA. The EULA lays out the "rules" stating what you "can" and "can not" do. Should you choose to "not read" or "ignore" the information given in it you can hardly complain when you are closed for a breach of its content. Especially when you don't communicate to those in a position to help you with your problem. If you did do this then we can look into what went wrong, I however think that you did not thus have no arguement to base your "whine" on.

If you do not agree to the rules, then don't tick the box!
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 01:14   #11
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
You tick the box saying you agree to the EULA. The EULA lays out the "rules" stating what you "can" and "can not" do. Should you choose to "not read" or "ignore" the information given in it you can hardly complain when you are closed for a breach of its content. Especially when you don't communicate to those in a position to help you with your problem. If you did do this then we can look into what went wrong, I however think that you did not thus have no arguement to base your "whine" on.

If you do not agree to the rules, then don't tick the box!
well a knowed played usually needs more proof to get closed than a anonymus dude is that stated in the rules too?

i have reported top guys and it takes like almost all the round to close them

but small dudes get closed for sneezing
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 01:48   #12
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

While some have been banned, and perhaps rightly so (although EULA violations deserve a warning initially because lets face it, people don't read it), verified cheaters have been left open.

I could post the details but I don't think it benefits anyone or helps the system. Maybe we need some tighter controls on the mh team however, because wrong decisions are made because of corruption or misunderstandings.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 01:52   #13
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Memberbase has dwindled in numbers for verious reasons not least for the lack of comman sense showed by some MH's closing planets which some incidents have been fairly innocent and didn't deserve to be closed... Sure people read the EULA agreement but I'm not sure MH understand it themselves tbh.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 01:55   #14
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

I would also like to point out that the mh team is quite small, and more numbers might enhance its time to spend on cases.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 03:05   #15
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

It doesnt matter tbh - Assassin will sort the guys out next round. He's already stated that anyone formerly ascociated with 1up can have up to 3 planets
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 05:11   #16
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

If you have an issue with the multihunters, by all means, contact one of us in #multihunters to address your concerns. I can not speak for the rest of the multihunter team but I will be more than happy to discuss these problems as some of you (Benneh, robban and NitinA (and Nadar before you post, too)) very well know. I will not discuss specifics on cases but I have no problems going over general things.

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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 06:04   #17
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Its a bit of a stretch to blame the multihunters for your own inability to read a eula or for the playerbase decline when they get caught.
Rules are rules. Abide by them or accept that you are going to get caught and closed.
Also - remember i used to RUN the multihunters - i know just how much evidence is/was gathered on planets before a decision to actively close them is made.
They do not simply close on a whim, despite what you may think.

If you have to use a proxy to log into the game then it is your responsibility to inform the mh about this so they can make a note on your planet for other multihunters.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 06:32   #18
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Understanding the eula is one thing, getting closed for no particular reason is another.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 09:34   #19
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benneh
the MH are pretty inconsistant with thier choices the only thing they are consistant at is being utter shite.
This goes back a lot of rounds. Assassin was my favourite of all times.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 10:42   #20
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spritfire
The funniest part with this thing is tho.

Before the round started, after alliance mergers was announced.

NewDawn hadd a plan on making 4-5 small alliance's and merge later on. Because the system would allow that.
It was my idea, I didn't like my idea. Talked to pa team about it.
And I was told it couldn't be done, it would be counted as cheating and nothing like this should happend.
Maybe one of the multihunters can explain why they called ND's plan cheating? There is no rule about it in the eula, and ultimately the game allows it's players to do so.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 12:30   #21
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Maybe one of the multihunters can explain why they called ND's plan cheating? There is no rule about it in the eula, and ultimately the game allows it's players to do so.
I'd very much like to know why that would be cheating as well.

I've tried to discuss this problem with biffy in private, but the last email he sent me contained a paragraph that made me lose hope in ever seeing sanity from the multihunting team again. Don't get your hopes up, I guess.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 13:42   #22
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

I've said this before and I suppose I'll say it again:

Rules are like a national constitution. They contain basic laws which limit what people can do, but they also limit what the government can do (e.g. rights to free speech). In the common law tradition, there is an assumption that you basically have a right to do anything that there isn't a specific law against. In other words, for someone to prosecute you, they have to prove that there was a law against your actions.

MHs should derive power from the laws, which everyone can see, not from their authority as multihunters. It is fundamentally unfair to players if they behave in a way which is not against the rules, and are then threatened with punishment by the MHs for that behaviour. MHs have to accept that if there is no publicly visible rule banning certain conduct, then there is nothing that they can do about it.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 14:33   #23
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Its not the multihunters you need to be asking why ND's plan could be considered cheating, its pateam.
They make the rules, the multihunters apply them

Personally, i dont think it is cheating in any form, unless those alliance shards were actively defending each other in which case they would fall foul of the support planets rule i guess
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 16:05   #24
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
15:49:38 <@rUl3r> Your attack fleet has been recalled by the multihunters, please do NOT try to suicide again in that way. We suspect you of trying to get ppl closed.
Shit like this annoys me
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 16:34   #25
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Its not the multihunters you need to be asking why ND's plan could be considered cheating, its pateam.
They make the rules, the multihunters apply them
If this is true, then I have considerable sympathy for the multihunters - they are being asked to impose hidden rules on players who don't know that they are breaking them.

It's really very very simple: the game design makes certain things possible. If there is no rule against a particular action, that action is legal. A rule can later be brought in to ban certain conduct, but that rule should not apply retrospectively.

Any rule which isn't public is invalid and MHs should refuse to apply them.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 17:13   #26
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

In my expeciance MH dont close without evidence.

A multihunter will always try to gather as much as they can on specific cases and act accordingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban
well a knowed played usually needs more proof to get closed than a anonymus dude is that stated in the rules too?

i have reported top guys and it takes like almost all the round to close them

but small dudes get closed for sneezing
This is very true. Smaller players do tend to be closed more than the bigger ones. But their is a very valid reason for this. The smaller planets tend to make cheating mroe obvious than people who are better ranked. Signing up 5 planets with the same user details ect. People who are in a high rank and who may be cheating are much more difficult to catch as they tend to know what they are doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comraderob
I've said this before and I suppose I'll say it again:

Rules are like a national constitution. They contain basic laws which limit what people can do, but they also limit what the government can do (e.g. rights to free speech). In the common law tradition, there is an assumption that you basically have a right to do anything that there isn't a specific law against. In other words, for someone to prosecute you, they have to prove that there was a law against your actions.

MHs should derive power from the laws, which everyone can see, not from their authority as multihunters. It is fundamentally unfair to players if they behave in a way which is not against the rules, and are then threatened with punishment by the MHs for that behaviour. MHs have to accept that if there is no publicly visible rule banning certain conduct, then there is nothing that they can do about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EULA
18.6. Miscellaneous cheating
(c) As newer methods of cheating are discovered, you authorise us to interpret
all data logged about your account towards detecting these methods. Actions which
are deemed to be cheating are not restricted to the list given on this
EULA and may be added to at any time, and you authorise us to do so
This rule is and has to be in place for the very reason. That people do read the rules for the sole porpuse of finding ways to cheat and gain an advantage that isnt specificaly banned by the EULA

At the end of the day the MH team are all hard working and dedicated. They care about the game and the people who play it. Somtimes they do make mistakes but their is good procedures in places to prevent this and to sort it out if problems do arise.

In short the few mistakes that may get made by them doesnt counteract the good that they do for the game. It would not be a fun place to play without them. I have rairly seen any comments praising the work they do. All you ever see if the negative comments which can be very dissenheatening for a volunteer who is trying their best to help people who only seem to care about the mistakes they may or may not make.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 17:21   #27
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willzzz
Now to tom. These 'people' you speak to. Do you really take what they say seriously? The amount of people i have saw come on here going on and on and on about how crap the MH's are etc, and there excuse is always 'well a friend told me why he was closed'. I once was caught for cheating in PA in my early days in PA, now coming from experience when we get caught and our alliances want to know whats going on, we of course will lie. We are not going to say 'oh well sorry guys, i stuffed up your chances of winning a round by cheating and fair play for the MHs for catching me'. No. Instead its more like 'Nah they set me up, they are incompetitent and are lieing' And ive said this before and ill say it again. Unless your the one involved in the case tom, please dont come on these forums bitching like a 4 year old.
Just a small note on this. I have had alliance HCs come to me on a fair few occassions to protest about members being closed. That they know for sure the member wasnt cheating yadda yadda yadda. The same casses i can prove people living in different countrys sharing login details and launching on the same planets. Defending each other ect. Bassically cases that are 100% watertight. Yet they still shout and complain when in actualy fact they know nothing about the person or what they were doing. Or more importantly dont care. All they care about is the lost score

I was a MH i think for 3 rounds and only once did someone say 'yes i was cheating, sorry'

No one likes to admit they did wrong. So most people dont
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 17:38   #28
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
I have had alliance HCs come to me on a fair few occassions to protest about members being closed. That they know for sure the member wasnt cheating yadda yadda yadda.
This is simply because the members never cough up and admit the truth to their HC, who then go on a 'holier then thou' crusade on their behalf.
Its why multihunters are directed to only discuss the case details with the planet involved. Their HC has nothing to do with their closure, even though they have a vested interest in the result
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 17:58   #29
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
This rule is and has to be in place for the very reason. That people do read the rules for the sole porpuse of finding ways to cheat and gain an advantage that isnt specificaly banned by the EULA

At the end of the day the MH team are all hard working and dedicated. They care about the game and the people who play it. Somtimes they do make mistakes but their is good procedures in places to prevent this and to sort it out if problems do arise.

In short the few mistakes that may get made by them doesnt counteract the good that they do for the game. It would not be a fun place to play without them. I have rairly seen any comments praising the work they do. All you ever see if the negative comments which can be very dissenheatening for a volunteer who is trying their best to help people who only seem to care about the mistakes they may or may not make.
But why should the merge be considered as cheating? It's just doing what the game allows me to do. If you consider 4 alliances merging into a cheat, then you have to reconsider the whole merging feature as by pure definition a merger of two alliances would be cheating already.
Unless you start extending it in a way that you are not allowed to become #1 (or top X) alliance with a merger; but in that case you might as well just scrap the merging feature again.

Still, can we get an official PA Team stance on this? IF it is cheating what Spritfire described, then why was that way of cheating enabled? IF it is not cheating, why did someone say it is?
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 18:03   #30
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
This rule is and has to be in place for the very reason. That people do read the rules for the sole porpuse of finding ways to cheat and gain an advantage that isnt specificaly banned by the EULA
If something is not defined to be cheating, then it is not cheating. It is rabidly unfair towards the multihunters to expect them to continually redefine what cheating is. PAteam and Jolt should fix this.

Quote:
At the end of the day the MH team are all hard working and dedicated. They care about the game and the people who play it. Somtimes they do make mistakes but their is good procedures in places to prevent this and to sort it out if problems do arise.
The multihunters are, in my opinion, set to an impossible task by people who have no clue why they're actually doing it. No one is going to win a popularity contest by claiming to be pro-cheating, so they all rail heavily against it without understanding why something should be against the rules or not.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 18:07   #31
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
This rule is and has to be in place for the very reason. That people do read the rules for the sole porpuse of finding ways to cheat and gain an advantage that isnt specificaly banned by the EULA
No, people read the rules to find out ways of playing which aren't cheating. If it isn't against the rules then it isn't cheating. If you (PAteam/MHs) discover something which you think should be classed as cheating, then make a rule against it. This isn't rocket science and you have a couple of millennia of legal history to give you plenty of examples of why this is a good idea.


Quote:
At the end of the day the MH team are all hard working and dedicated. They care about the game and the people who play it. Somtimes they do make mistakes but their is good procedures in places to prevent this and to sort it out if problems do arise.
I'm quite sure there were concentration camp guards who were hard working and dedicated - this fact is entirely irrelevant to judging whether or not they are doing the right thing. I'm not attacking the MHs as people, nor accusing them of not working hard, but I do think that the rules and regulations are wrong.

'Mistakes' aren't the problem; as you say, there are procedures in place to deal with mistakes, and there is a chain of command that people can appeal to if they think that a MH has made the wrong call.

Let me illustrate with an example. Suppose I do a 'friendly' covop on a scanner, to kill some of his factories so that he can build more amps. A MH closes me for this. Is that a mistake? He closed the right planet, and he had a reason for doing it. The rules are ambiguous here. Is my friendly covop against the rules or not? There is no way that I can know before doing it; I have to hope that the MHs either don't notice what I've done, or decide that it's not cheating. As a player, I would be extremely annoyed at being closed in that situation, because there was no rule against what I did, but the 'miscellaneous cheating' clause means that anything might be decided to be cheating.

I think I finally understand your position here: you want us to trust that the MHs and PAteam will reach the right decision. I think that we should put our trust in rules which everyone can see, rather than in human judgements. It's worth pointing out that this should make life a lot easier for the MHs - most of the attacks on the MHs come precisely because people know that MHs are making judgement calls and can then be swayed by 'public' pressure. If the MHs had clear rules covering all infringements of the rules, they could simply say 'hey, I don't make the rules, I only enforce them'.

Quote:
In short the few mistakes that may get made by them doesnt counteract the good that they do for the game. It would not be a fun place to play without them. I have rairly seen any comments praising the work they do. All you ever see if the negative comments which can be very dissenheatening for a volunteer who is trying their best to help people who only seem to care about the mistakes they may or may not make.
I prefixed my comments by saying that I have a lot of sympathy for the multihunters, who are obviously in a difficult position.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 18:13   #32
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Zebra got threatened with being closed this round for hitting 1 planet 5 times in 2 weeks. I mean what the **** is up with that. So ridiculous. Its not farming, it was an XP xan hitting someone who had crap anti-fr.

The other nice one this round was that the reason sandvolds fleets defending (out of gal and out of alliance 3 fleets to one planet) a certain top planet were not recalled was "because it would cause too many issues if they were"

Make some rules, stick by them whatever and you may actually get some respect. Sort it out please.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 18:16   #33
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
You tick the box saying you agree to the EULA. The EULA lays out the "rules" stating what you "can" and "can not" do. Should you choose to "not read" or "ignore" the information given in it you can hardly complain when you are closed for a breach of its content. Especially when you don't communicate to those in a position to help you with your problem. If you did do this then we can look into what went wrong, I however think that you did not thus have no arguement to base your "whine" on.

If you do not agree to the rules, then don't tick the box!

what a nice way to say: **** off, we do whatever we want, no matter how stupid it is, or how stupid our way to interprete the EULA is; you ticked the box, now you are doomed
great marketing strategy !!

on a more serious note: there are several points that lead to the unsatisfying work of the MHs:

1) The EULA: or better said the part that is ment to be the guidline for the MHs to work with. this part is SHIT. let me repeat: UTTER BULLSHIT. there should be a clear definition of every case of cheating, that happened so far. then the MHs should sit together and define penalties for every single of these cases. this would prevent a) different MHs judging similar or identic cases differently. and b) ppl getting angry about the shitty way some individual MH interpretes the EULA from time to time.
now put ALL those cases into the EULA.
if there is a new case not already taken into the EULA. then ofc the MHs have to interprete what penalty would be best for this case. after this: Add this case to the EULA after the round has finished.

2) there have been MHs who don't have a single braincell. Solution: Don't pick such ppl as MHs. if the EULA would be changed in the way i mentioned above in point 1, it would be VERY easy to check if the new MH is competent enough or not: simply give him 3 examples and ask him how he would judge. if he judges like it is written in the EULA, take him. if not, well, you know what to do then...

3) tell the MHs that it is absolutly okay to talk to ppl like normal human beeings. tell them that sometimes they might be wrong and if a player tells them absolutly logical arguments it is ok to listen to them and reconsider the case. there have been MHs (hello Smudge) that simply won't listen to you and tell you to FOAD, just with nicer words. to calrify: NOT ALL MHs are like this, not even the majority of them are; maybe not even one of the current MHs might be stubborn like that, but a reminder can never hurt.

i don't understand why it is so hard to write a decent EULA. this might be hard work once, but would save shitloads of time afterwards + it would satisfy many players and noone has to fear if he might get closed coz of someones weird way to think. (i just want to say Biffy, Wishmaster and "child porn" in this context, but if u take this into account i might have to add a 4) to the list above: MHs are only allowed to use word descriptions as found in official dictionaries to argument and are NOT allowed to make up new descriptions of words)

If those things i listed above would be done, then i predict there would be 98% less arguing with the MHs (which would give them more time to do proper investigations), 98% less whining on the forums and after all more satisfied and happy players (=customers)

but after all the rounds i have played this game i think the time i took to write this post was a waste and the EULA will be as shitty in 10 more rounds as it is now. but hey, at least i tried.

to finish my post with some nice words:
Fiery i still wub you
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 18:23   #34
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

There is more to competancy then how they react to certain situations.
I would be looking for technical competancy as well - Do they know their stuff when it comes to networking, analysis and investigations
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 18:24   #35
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
I think I finally understand your position here: you want us to trust that the MHs and PAteam will reach the right decision. I think that we should put our trust in rules which everyone can see, rather than in human judgements. It's worth pointing out that this should make life a lot easier for the MHs - most of the attacks on the MHs come precisely because people know that MHs are making judgement calls and can then be swayed by 'public' pressure. If the MHs had clear rules covering all infringements of the rules, they could simply say 'hey, I don't make the rules, I only enforce them'.
I dont think blind trust is ever a good thing. I would encourage you to question peoples actions especially if they are judgment calls.

And i have to say i agree 100% that it would make the MH job a lot easier if they had a big list of things that wear banned and what punishments to give for any infringments. But i think it would be nearly impossible to have a comprehensive list. Which would then lead to people not cheating that was the wrong chocie of word but breaking the spirit of the game in order to gain a huge advantage over the way the game is designed to be played.

I would encourage the PA community to thrash out a set of guidlines as to what exactly be banned and what punishments be given. If this is the route you want then it has to come from the community. As they will be the ones who have to deal with the consquwences of ommiting things or punishments not fitting the crime effectivly

To Heartless and anyone else who might reply with specific cases. I do not know about them and have been making my comments from my experiance as a MH more than anything else. I havnt been involved in several rounds so im really unable to comment on whats happened during them
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 18:36   #36
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
There is more to competancy then how they react to certain situations.
I would be looking for technical competancy as well - Do they know their stuff when it comes to networking, analysis and investigations
agreed, what i mentioned was just a minimum of skills they have to bring in in terms of judging cases as i don't have a clue about networking, analysis and investigations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
And i have to say i agree 100% that it would make the MH job a lot easier if they had a big list of things that wear banned and what punishments to give for any infringments. But i think it would be nearly impossible to have a comprehensive list.
why? is it that hard to make a list of why you closed ppl and what punishment you gave? i highly doubt it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
Which would then lead to people not cheating that was the wrong chocie of word but breaking the spirit of the game in order to gain a huge advantage over the way the game is designed to be played.
err... ruin the spirit more than the current system? and again doubts are coming up... simply use the correct words, it can't be that hard. if u figure out why to close someone you should be able to describe why you did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
I would encourage the PA community to thrash out a set of guidlines as to what exactly be banned and what punishments be given. If this is the route you want then it has to come from the community. As they will be the ones who have to deal with the consquwences of ommiting things or punishments not fitting the crime effectivly
seriously, NO. this isn't the communities job, this is the MHs / Jolts job.
if Jolt is too stupid to do this: sell PA to someone with a brain
if the MHs are too lazy to do this: quit the job

what you are asking above is like asking the murder to set his own penalty.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 18:39   #37
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
why? is it that hard to make a list of why you closed ppl and what punishment you gave? i highly doubt it
It isnt. There is an admin page which lists the cases ( or at least when i was there, the last 50. I really hope its been updated since then though )
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 18:44   #38
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob

I think I finally understand your position here: you want us to trust that the MHs and PAteam will reach the right decision. I think that we should put our trust in rules which everyone can see, rather than in human judgements. It's worth pointing out that this should make life a lot easier for the MHs - most of the attacks on the MHs come precisely because people know that MHs are making judgement calls and can then be swayed by 'public' pressure. If the MHs had clear rules covering all infringements of the rules, they could simply say 'hey, I don't make the rules, I only enforce them'.
Why not put trust in them? They were appointed to be MH's in the first place due to their own understanding of the game and how it works. They are here to police the game and keep out people who abuse it. I trust them. Maybe some previous MH's or MH's that are new to their job make the wrong choices, but thats just a human quality.

I think what might be easier in the long run for the MH/PA Team is to not have idiots who set it as their main goals for the next round to create loopholes in the rules so they can bend then without actually breaking them. Bassicaly people always looking for a way to play with an edge/advantage on others. If people bothered to actually play the game via skill instead of that might make it easier for all arguments wouldnt you agree? But of course thats a dream world i am thinking of.

Now, as far as this trust issue goes. Why cant the MH's be trusted on verdicts? As far as i can see the EULA is clear enough to me. It states what you can and cant do, and just simply says that the MH can determin what action he/she needs to take. I dont see why that is so hard to understand. Also, correct me if im wrong, but do we not have humans determin outcomes of people in real life?

For example, if i was arrested for shooting somone, that would of course be against the 'rules' becuase of course you cant go around shooting people. But am i then locked up and the case is ended? Of course not. You have laywers, a court, a jourey to decide on your fate. Same scanario here. The rules are their and the MHs are chosen to enforce them by their judegement. And they decide on what action is nesscesery based on the case.

So in Conclusion i trust the MH Team. Hence why i play this game. I sign that EULA which means i put my trust in them and play by the rules. If people find this so hard to understand, dont play. They are people putting their own free time into this for what? Abuse from you guys on these forums, who then asked 'why dont you have a go?' then vanish. They will never get ANYONE that they close admit they were cheating, becuase thats what cheats do. And before somone comes on here claiming cheats would admit i used to be one. So i know all the excuses they come out with. The MH's job is to enforce the rules, they dont have to be friendly. They dont have to chace people down to tell them 'oh sorry your breaking the rules can you stop it plz?' in pm. You dont get police coming to your door becuase they heard you were planning on killing the president to simply say 'id be happy for you not to do that please'. So i wish them luck in future rounds.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 18:47   #39
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Which part isnt defined?
Do you mean the "is defined as, but not limited to" clause?

Its there so they can add new ones in if a new method of cheating is discovered.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 18:50   #40
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
err... ruin the spirit more than the current system? and again doubts are coming up... simply use the correct words, it can't be that hard. if u figure out why to close someone you should be able to describe why you did.
I mabey wasnt clear here. ANYTHING that isnt specificly banned in the EULA will be used by people to gain an advantage over everyone else. If you have hard and fast rules you would be unable to do anything about this even if it was totaly unfair on 90% of the playerbase



Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
seriously, NO. this isn't the communities job, this is the MHs / Jolts job.
if Jolt is too stupid to do this: sell PA to someone with a brain
if the MHs are too lazy to do this: quit the job

what you are asking above is like asking the murder to set his own penalty.
Its more like asking the murderers peers and the victums famely what penelty they shoudl recieve before the crime has even been commited. So that when the time comes that people complain (which the will) its been fully debated by the paying members of the community who have a vested intrest in stopping cheaters.

EDIT: I dont think this is such a good idea btw. I think more flexable options should be available. As each case is different even if the reason for closure was the same. Use of proxies would be one example. Someone might be using one clearly from work (their are ways to check this) and someone might be using one to access other peoples accounts. So that many people can use one account. Should both these cases be handeled in the same way?
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 18:56   #41
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

maybe undefined is the wrong word, i'll try to explain what i mean:

there are things listed in the Cheating Section but it doesn't cover all the methods of cheating and leaves cases which are in the grey zone completely out. there are simply too many cases which, according to the EULA, should be judged by the MHs with their own discretion. if that would be the case in any modern law system the government would very very fast try to fix that.

and to willzzz: no it's not the same as in real life; in real life you have a complete set of laws for 99% of all things you might do. in PA you don't.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 19:01   #42
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
maybe undefined is the wrong word, i'll try to explain what i mean:

there are things listed in the Cheating Section but it doesn't cover all the methods of cheating and leaves cases which are in the grey zone completely out. there are simply too many cases which, according to the EULA, should be judged by the MHs with their own discretion. if that would be the case in any modern law system the government would very very fast try to fix that.

and to willzzz: no it's not the same as in real life; in real life you have a complete set of laws for 99% of all things you might do. in PA you don't.
With the way the PA community keeps finding new ways to get around the rules as far as i can see it would never be possible to have a list of what is and isnt allowed. Especially with the community complaining about the MHs already controlling the game to much. I am pointing out to you in real life, although the rules are their, you still have judgement via humans (ie a jurrey) to dtermin your fate. It isnt straight cut as your trying to make out.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 19:01   #43
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
I mabey wasnt clear here. ANYTHING that isnt specificly banned in the EULA will be used by people to gain an advantage over everyone else. If you have hard and fast rules you would be unable to do anything about this even if it was totaly unfair on 90% of the playerbase
let me repeat the last two sentences of my point 1:
if there is a new case not already taken into the EULA. then ofc the MHs have to interprete what penalty would be best for this case. after this: Add this case to the EULA after the round has finished.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
Its more like asking the murderers peers and the victums famely what penelty they shoudl recieve before the crime has even been commited. So that when the time comes that people complain (which the will) its been fully debated by the paying members of the community who have a vested intrest in stopping cheaters.
letting 2000 ppl decide on a set of rules would take several years, so this is still a bad idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
EDIT: I dont think this is such a good idea btw. I think more flexable options should be available. As each case is different even if the reason for closure was the same. Use of proxies would be one example. Someone might be using one clearly from work (their are ways to check this) and someone might be using one to access other peoples accounts. So that many people can use one account. Should both these cases be handeled in the same way?
ofc those cases shouldn't be handled in the same way as they are clearly different...
it should be possible to create a rule for each of those cases
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 19:02   #44
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Before someone has a go at my edit i will add in a common law example as well

Murder, Manslaughter, self defence. All 3 crimes involve killing someone but the reasoning and method is different and each case is judged on its own merit. Thats the point i was trying to make though i mabey chose a bad example
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 19:05   #45
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
let me repeat the last two sentences of my point 1:
if there is a new case not already taken into the EULA. then ofc the MHs have to interprete what penalty would be best for this case. after this: Add this case to the EULA after the round has finished.

This as far as i know should be happening with specific methods of cheating

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
letting 2000 ppl decide on a set of rules would take several years, so this is still a bad idea
Yes but if you want totaly airtight rules without any grey areas this would be the only way to achieve it

EDIT: MH/PA teams find it very difficult to think up ways to cheat and get around rules. This is why i said it had to be commuinity driven
(their would still be grey areas but with ironclad rules the MH woudnt be able to acto on them)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
ofc those cases shouldn't be handled in the same way as they are clearly different...
it should be possible to create a rule for each of those cases
You would have a coprehensive rule book simmiler in size to War and Peace. Which you could be sure no one would read
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 19:20   #46
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Hello PA Community.

My my havent we all bin busy. Well i was appointed back to the MH Manager position on friday evening, and it is always lovely to see a thread regarding my department appear so quickly, i havent even done anything yet

Right. I am here to bassicaly say that i am back at the helm again (which im sure a lot of you dont agree with but of course i cant please everyone) I have a great team behind me and i am here to assure people that from next round and for many rounds to come we will be working hard to give you a service where we can keep cheats out and give the players who play this game for enjoyment a great round.

Now i can of course not comment on actions that have happend in the past 2 rounds as i wasnt here. But i am more then happy to take a pm over irc or of course you can use the mail option on the forums, or im more then happy for you to send me an email if i am not around on irc if you want to disscus things you wasnt happy with etc so we can work togther to improve things for the future.

The #multihunters channel is always open for people to come and ask us questions. I have always tried to make this clear. If you have questions myself or another team member will always be happy to help you with any information you need. My deputy bassicaly said this below also:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiery
If you have an issue with the multihunters, by all means, contact one of us in #multihunters to address your concerns. I can not speak for the rest of the multihunter team but I will be more than happy to discuss these problems as some of you (Benneh, robban and NitinA (and Nadar before you post, too)) very well know. I will not discuss specifics on cases but I have no problems going over general things.

Shyne, no one in Planetarion could afford to buy the amount of shoes it would take to corrupt me.

And as i said above that i feel the same way as my Deputy. I am now back to try and make this game friendly, but at the same time make people respect the rules so we have a friendly game atmosphere for all new players and experienced players. A Hard task I agree as it is impossible to please everyone. So, tom. If you want to pm me on irc as myself and my deputy have posted feel free to. I have also tried to make clear in my previous time as the Manager and now, that if your not happy with a verdict of one of my MH's after speaking with them your always welcome to an appeal with myself. I dont hold biased views and will judge them fairly on the evidence i have.

Anyway. Just thought id post this to make everyone aware i am back again and hopefully we can turn this view around. Thank you for reading this.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 19:22   #47
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Im just gonna sum up my points in a nice semi neat fashion. Then im gonna head off for a while

Multihunters do a very difficult, demanding and thankless job.

They do make mistakes (not as many as you might think though)

There are procedures in place to prevent mistakes and to deal with them if they do arrise.

Rules need gray areas as MH and PA team do not spend their time trying to think up new ways to gain an UNFAIR advantage as so people do.

A set of ironclad rules would be great for the MH team but not so good for the community unless they where able to debate it and decide the rules for them selves

This isnt a good idea.

By all means question the actions of the MH involved if your planet is closed warned ect. The MH will hear you out and listen to what you have to say. They will also justify their decision to you. Appeal if this doesnt suit you.

OK i think thats me restated everything a bit clearer and not split over about 50 different posts.
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Unread 12 Dec 2006, 19:45   #48
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squishy
Rules need gray areas as MH and PA team do not spend their time trying to think up new ways to gain an UNFAIR advantage as so people do.

A set of ironclad rules would be great for the MH team but not so good for the community unless they where able to debate it and decide the rules for them selves

This isnt a good idea.
I disagree.

Rules should not have any grey areas. Something is either illegal, or not. If a new rule is needed, then make a new rule and tell everyone what it is (of course, such a new rule could not apply retrospectively).

There is a trade-off, between the possibility that someone might figure out a form of 'abuse' and get away with it for a period of time (until it is banned) and the possibility that any of us might have our present conduct ruled illegal regardless of what the rules said at the time of our actions. I favour the former scenario, for being fairer and easier to implement. If someone figures out a way of playing which turns out to be 'unfair', I don't mind that. Everyone else had the opportunity to do the same thing. If it needs to be banned, ban it and make sure it doesn't happen again. I am quite willing to admit that this might lead to some people getting away with 'unfair' play until the rules are updated, but it would also lead to a much better understanding of what is, and isn't, against the rules. As I said, it's a trade-off between the two, and I favour a rules-based solution.

At present, we have a situation where such 'borderline' cases result in very unpredictable outcomes. Some people may be put off pursuing legitimate strategies because they are worried that the MHs might rule their strategy illegal (see the ND example above). We shouldn't be asking the MHs to give judgements on such cases, we should be able to refer to the rules.
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Unread 13 Dec 2006, 18:52   #49
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

*bump*

And sorry mods, but I'll keep on bumping it until a pa team person replies with what they plan to do about "grey area" issues like the one Spritfire had.
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Unread 14 Dec 2006, 22:12   #50
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Re: Have Multihunters lost the plot??

Squishy is back. wohoo
No worries, he´ll prevent cheating. And more.
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