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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 19:04   #1
Appocomaster
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New Covert Op Changes

There have been several changes to the "Covert Operations" section of the game for this round.

The main one is that agents and security guards can now be trained (and fired), and cost a wage per tick.

Agents are used on covert operations, and are often killed if caught.
To compensate for the fact that agents have to be trained and cost a wage, covert operations are now half their previous amount.

Security Guards can be used in combination with security centres and populations to help to protect your planet from covert operations.
Purely from security guards alone, you can be completely immune to covert operations by having 10x as many guards as you have asteroids.

Base alertness and stealth rates have been changed to 50 and 75/65 respectively. Completing consecutive covert operations gives you a bonus to your maximum stealth rating, an extra bonus of 1 per covert operation, capped at 5 successful covert operations. This gives a covert ops immunity at an alertness rating of 100.

There is also an extra covert op mission to kill enemy security guards.

Having enough security guards and agents to give you a negative income means that enough security guards and agents get fired to keep your income positive. This is done in the order of security guards and then agents.

Max Alertness is:
(50+ security_guards*5/(total_asteroids+1))*(1+(%security_centres*2+population_bonus+government_bonus)/100)

Max Stealth is:
base_stealth*(1+race_bonus/100)+cumulative_success_bonus

Alert increases by the following each tick:
(4+min(security_guards/total_roids,5))*(1+(pop_security+gov_bonus)/100)

Alert decreases by the following each tick:
(6-min(security_guards/total_roids,2))*(1+(pop_security+gov_bonus)/100)

Stealth changes as before:
race_growth*(1+government_bonus/100)


Questions welcome
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Last edited by Appocomaster; 15 Aug 2008 at 10:52.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 19:08   #2
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Cant we just remove cov ops once and for all?
plz.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 19:10   #3
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

no
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 19:10   #4
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

why not?
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 19:21   #5
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Covert ops offers another alternative way of playing. This now also offers a safe way of introducing things like units with wages, firing units, etc.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 19:56   #6
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Cant we just remove cov ops once and for all?
plz.
/signed :/
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 20:50   #7
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Cant we just remove cov ops once and for all?
plz.
Same
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 20:53   #8
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Do you have any real reason for wanting it removed or is this just the general "I don't like it so remove it" whine we've seen more the last 2 weeks?
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 20:53   #9
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
This now also offers a safe way of introducing things like units with wages, firing units, etc.
Can you expand upon that? Safe way etc? Does that mean you have plans to introduce more units that involve wages in the next round? i.e like engineers, fleet commanders and so forth. Or am I reading too much into that?

I would like to know why you consider it 'safe'.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 21:27   #10
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

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Covert ops offers another alternative way of playing. This now also offers a safe way of introducing things like units with wages, firing units, etc.
Coward.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 22:04   #11
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Next you'll be introducing unions, when pilots feel that they are underpaid they will strike and not fly till they get paid danger money for flying on suicide missions.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 22:21   #12
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

I like covops.

Structure killing and sabotaging ships is useful.

Asteroid blowing up is near worthless and should probably be removed though.
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 22:24   #13
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Somehow I doubt their objections to cov ops are "they're not good enough".
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Unread 10 Aug 2008, 23:24   #14
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

maybe they are too stupid to make themselves immune to cov-op's and thats why they want it removed
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 00:04   #15
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

In my opinion, the more cov-ops are being made complicated, and "advanced". (read more open for loopholes due to cin's inadequate coding ability and Appocomasters lack of thinking) There is bound to be a few loopholes here which someone will exploit to the obscene, and that everyone will be pissed off about. But we as PA players just generally accept it, and see the constant failures from the PA-Team as just another classic way to make PA more intresting.

"Play PA, and see how many shoddy implemented new ideas you can exploit "should be the slogan for the new advertisement campaign for PA.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 00:35   #16
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

I have to admit that this new change is not something I'm particularly optimistic about. It seems mostly like pointless complication to me.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 09:16   #17
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

i never understood the fuzz over this covop thingy.. its quite good that they are implanted since some ppl like to play as cov oppers and they can also b quite useful from time to time(checking what shippies the defender/attacker has home by sabotageing and stuff like that).. ppl also can get their immunity over cov ops quite simply so whats the case ? remove one way of playing this game for what? if ure afraid of em then read the manual, check the formulaes and make yourself immune :P
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 09:16   #18
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

do security centers still do the same thing (and to the same extent) as they always have done? (sorry not playing beta )
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 09:22   #19
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Quote:
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do security centers still do the same thing (and to the same extent) as they always have done? (sorry not playing beta )
pretty much, yes.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 09:23   #20
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

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Originally Posted by Fatrick View Post
Next you'll be introducing unions, when pilots feel that they are underpaid they will strike and not fly till they get paid danger money for flying on suicide missions.
No, I'm too Tory to allow unions on planets.

However, it is a step towards using the magic population number :-)
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 09:54   #21
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

I'm interested in the cost of these wages and by quickly reading the original post I did not see it.

Though I'm glad something is finally being done with the amount of population, I also fear that this will be exploited again and quite possibly ruin the rounds of people that aren't informed properly about the changes compared to last round.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 11:32   #22
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

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Originally Posted by Veedeejem! View Post
I also fear that this will be exploited again and quite possibly ruin the rounds of people that aren't informed properly about the changes compared to last round.

If somebody signing up to the game, they really should go read the manual and the changelog
There are NO excuses like "Nobody told me about this", everything is on Overview or in the helpfile
I hate cooow ooopers, so they could easyli go away, but then again I hate people attacking me whit shippies too, so they could be removed too. Not to forgett the distwhores, they should be banned, he he

Let the cooow ooopers do what they want, atleast it will be harder for them now when the Agents get killed and they loose res when they fail
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 12:01   #23
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

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Originally Posted by Auto View Post
If somebody signing up to the game, they really should go read the manual and the changelog
I'm sorry, but I don't trust the manual in most things it says. It has been badly updated so the information in it might not be 100% accurate on what actually happens in the game.

btw: most people I know, including me, don't read the manual / changelog (is there even an updated one?) when they sign up.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 12:29   #24
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

there is nothing on the current manual to explain these changes to the cov-ops so an update there would help
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 12:41   #25
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Do you have any real reason for wanting it removed or is this just the general "I don't like it so remove it" whine we've seen more the last 2 weeks?
Its a route which only people who scan and or just play support + nubs follow.

Its annoying to constantly have to be on high enough sec. And its annoying that the only one that will ever do this, are people way below your own bashlimidt - so there is nothing you can do about it when you "catch" them doing it.

Remove it, or make it alot more expencive to fail, or more rewarding when you prevent it. Kidnap the ****ers, randsom for them, rape them and gain coolness points, whatever.

its just boring and shouldnt be a part of the game - imo.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 13:28   #26
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Its annoying to constantly have to be on high enough sec. And its annoying that the only one that will ever do this, are people way below your own bashlimidt - so there is nothing you can do about it when you "catch" them doing it.

Remove it, or make it alot more expencive to fail, or more rewarding when you prevent it. Kidnap the ****ers, randsom for them, rape them and gain coolness points, whatever.
So like, the fact the agents are (almost) certain to die when they get caught?
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 13:52   #27
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
So like, the fact the agents are (almost) certain to die when they get caught?
The people that are cov-opping will most likely, like in every round, be ridiculously small but will have alot of resources from stealing...
Doubt they'll give a **** about some dead agents or that it will affect their planet / plans in one way or the other.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 16:22   #28
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

How much are the wages for our populous?
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 16:35   #29
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Cant we just remove cov ops once and for all?
plz.
Agreed.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 16:36   #30
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Agents: 5 each per tick per agent
Security Guards: 3 each per tick per guard
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 16:53   #31
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

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Originally Posted by Satyr View Post
Agents: 5 each per tick per agent
Security Guards: 3 each per tick per guard
Right so if I want to have 50% of my population working as security guards, and my population is starting off at 10k, that's 5000x3.

So you telling me I need to now pay 15k of each resource per tick ABSOLUTE MINIMUM? Am I getting this right?

You do realise that before trading resources, setting mining bonuses or population settings, with a paid planet you start off only getting 2,500 resources per tick?

That doesn't make any sense, where am I picking this up wrong?
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 16:55   #32
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

It is a bit confusing but you don't pay for the security guards on the population settings.

The security guards you pay for are on a new covert ops page and you specifically train and fire them so you have complete control over how much it costs.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 17:36   #33
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Right, so going by:

Quote:
Purely from security guards alone, you can be completely immune to covert operations by having 10x as many guards as you have asteroids.
To gain immunity to covops, you'd need 10 Guards to every roid you had. So for every roid @ 250 resources income per tick, you'd need to pay 10 guards (30 resources per tick) to stay immune?

So essentially, for 12% of your asteroid income, you could be immune to covert operations, via Security Guards (as featured on the covert ops page)?

Well why did nobody say THAT sooner? :|
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 18:44   #34
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post

There is also an extra covert op mission to kill enemy security guards.

Is this covert op mission still dependant on alert status? Or is there a random factor to determine if the poisoners get through?

Even the most alert secret agents could fall for the honeytrap, and eat the posioned custard creams given to them by the evil yet very attractive tea-lady.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 19:14   #35
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

To me this has weakened cov oping. Now because Agents are so exspensive and if you fail take 12 turns to get them back(which means 12 turns of hitting crap targets or not cov oping at all) you can not steal alot unless you do it on purely safe targets which needless to say gives you alot of completions but lil to no resource benefits. Effectively, i beleive this did kill cov ops.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 19:43   #36
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by smith- View Post
Right so if I want to have 50% of my population working as security guards, and my population is starting off at 10k, that's 5000x3.

So you telling me I need to now pay 15k of each resource per tick ABSOLUTE MINIMUM? Am I getting this right?

You do realise that before trading resources, setting mining bonuses or population settings, with a paid planet you start off only getting 2,500 resources per tick?

That doesn't make any sense, where am I picking this up wrong?
You're picking it up wrong. Security guards is not population, it's something new. Though I'll admit, the fact that the population page has a slider bar titled "Security guards" is hugely confusing. Appoco, fix that please. And while you're at it, fix "Employeed" on the Personnel Management page.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The PK View Post
To me this has weakened cov oping. Now because Agents are so exspensive and if you fail take 12 turns to get them back(which means 12 turns of hitting crap targets or not cov oping at all) you can not steal alot unless you do it on purely safe targets which needless to say gives you alot of completions but lil to no resource benefits. Effectively, i beleive this did kill cov ops.
Or you could just make sure you always have a buffer of agents. It's not exactly expensive to keep 100 of them around at all times. I mean, that's 2 roids worth of income a tick, less if you factor in population, and they cost a whopping 200k ea to buy.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 20:50   #37
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

its 5 of each resource, so thats 2 of each, 6 total :P, plus the cost to buy them, it seems like so little but with the fixing of the production system makes it harder, meaning it comes out quicker, all around hurting cov opers, its the small things that can hurt and kill a strategy.
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Unread 11 Aug 2008, 21:21   #38
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Six roids! You're right, how could I have been so stupid, that's clearly not affordable at all.
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 19:42   #39
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

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Originally Posted by Fatrick View Post
Next you'll be introducing unions, when pilots feel that they are underpaid they will strike and not fly till they get paid danger money for flying on suicide missions.
that would be bad for ASS i guess
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 19:47   #40
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Security Guards can be used in combination with security centres and populations to help to protect your planet from covert operations.

Max Alertness is:
(50+ security_guards*5/(total_asteroids+1))*(1+(race_bonus+population_bonus+government_bonus)/100)

Alert increases by the following each tick:
(4+min(security_guards/total_roids,5))*(1+(pop_security+gov_bonus+race_bonus)/100)

Alert decreases by the following each tick:
(6-min(security_guards/total_roids,2))*(1+(pop_security+gov_bonus+race_bonus)/100)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manual
Alert:
70*(1+(%securitycentres*2 + %government alert bonus + %population security workers)/100)

It lowers by 6*(1-(government alert bonus + %pop security workers)/100) if your alertness is too high, and increases by 3*(1+(government alert bonus + %pop security workers)/100) if your alertness is too low.
i pasted the new stuff and the old stuff together because i fail to see where security centres affect the new formula. would you care to explain Appoco or someone else?
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 20:14   #41
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

good question Zaejii
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Unread 12 Aug 2008, 20:29   #42
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Alert = (50+ security_guards*5/(total_asteroids+1) ) * (1+(2*security_centres%+race_bonus+population_bonus+government_bonus)/100)

Race bonus can safely be ignored, no race has a bonus to alert.
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Unread 14 Aug 2008, 09:17   #43
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Is there any score for having security guards/officers?
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Unread 14 Aug 2008, 15:59   #44
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Can you fire your guards? Say I get roided from 1k roids down to 100, my income is now totally invested into paying for my guards. I cannot afford to initiate new roids (unless I get donations/have some reserves). Should I delete my account or is there another way to get rid of the guards? (cov ops doesn't work, because I am now immune)
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Unread 14 Aug 2008, 16:08   #45
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

You can fire your guards yes. They're automatically fired when you hit negative income actually.
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Unread 14 Aug 2008, 16:10   #46
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

There is a certain pleasure from firing them though.

You can fire them (and agents) at any time in drastic credit crunch cost cutting measures!

There's no score though, but this might be looked into for future rounds!
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Unread 14 Aug 2008, 17:16   #47
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
There is a certain pleasure from firing them though.
I don't see how throwing resources away is pleasurable, but ok!
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Unread 15 Aug 2008, 10:42   #48
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Where does security centers come into the calculation?
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Unread 15 Aug 2008, 10:46   #49
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Re: New Covert Op Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I don't see how throwing resources away is pleasurable, but ok!
You're saving resources - bye bye wages


Quote:
Originally Posted by Storebo View Post
Where does security centers come into the calculation?
Basically, in max alert / alert increase / alert decrease, you have:

(base rate + security guards/roids)*(security centre bonus+government bonus + population bonus)

I think I missed it out of my original posts, so I'll fix now
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Unread 15 Aug 2008, 15:31   #50
Ronin
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: nld
Posts: 50
Ronin will become famous soon enoughRonin will become famous soon enough
Re: New Covert Op Changes

Can someone paste a short summary how to be immune to this crap? cba to read.
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