IQ Test Question

[Leshy]

This image lead to a debate on a Dutch forum, in which I'm right and several other people are wrong. Hence, I'm reposting it here in order to affirm my intellectual superiority in this matter. Well, that, and if people here differ on opinion, it could lead to an interesting debate, in which MrL_JaKiri will mention the word empiricism, or a variant thereof, Nodrog will write an essay about how IQ tests are not representative, and Dante will claim that all people should be considered equal.

The question which is being debated is question 34, as everyone agrees on the answer to question 35, although you may answer that as well as the manner in which you answer the questions may be the same.

[Nodrog]

this is first of many "shut up jakiri" posts in this thread.

[MrL_JaKiri]

B springs first to mind, because aside from the shared use ('sound storage') they share no properties at all (well, you could say that records and CDs both spin, but that's a bit tenuous)

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

this is first of many "shut up jakiri" posts in this thread.

shut up jakiri

[Nodrog]

Id say d) for 34 because the data on a vinyl record can be contained on a cassette which can be contained on a CD. The problem with these things however is that you coudl probably write a rational justification for all of the options, meaning that it reduces to a "who thinks in the same way as the question-setter" problem.

[Nodrog]

Id say a) for 34 because although there is certainly a subset of problems which can be solved by use of any of the 3 items, there are also problems which suit the use of a particular one, and also some where any 2 might be able to do the job. The problem with these things however is that you coudl probably write a rational justification for all of the options, meaning that it reduces to a "who thinks in the same way as the question-setter" problem.

[queball]

34 D
35 A
what Nod said

[Nodrog]

Id say c) for 34 because the CD has become the main item used for data transfer, and would hence occupy the middle position in the diagram as it is the best choice in most situations. Cassettes and vinyl branch off this main set because there are certain situations where one of these more specialised media may be approriate, for instance the alledged superior 'first quality' play of vinyl, or the eaiser adaptability of cassette tapes to products requiring small recordable datastorage, such as analogue dictaphones. The problem with these things however is that you coudl probably write a rational justification for all of the options, meaning that it reduces to a "who thinks in the same way as the question-setter" problem.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Id say d) for 34 because the data on a vinyl record can be contained on a cassette which can be contained on a CD. The problem with these things however is that you coudl probably write a rational justification for all of the options, meaning that it reduces to a "who thinks in the same way as the question-setter" problem.

So vinyl in the middle, then cassette, then CD?

Rationale for A:

Shared uses. For instance, tapes and cd's were/are both used for storing games on. Cassettes and vinyls have both been used to store voice recordings on, which isn't the case with cds, vinyls and cds both spin. They're all used for music.

Rationale for C:

Similarities between method of storage and date transfer. Vinyl in the middle, which shares the 'disk' property of CDs (on the right), and cassettes and vinyl both are analog recording devices (cassettes on the left).

B is the most likely, in my opinion, but nod is right that there is no ultimately correct answer to the exclusion of the others.

It's not as bad as 'Odd one out' problems though.

[Leshy]

Nod, for the record, what would your answer to question 35 be? As it appears you're looking at 34 as a stand-alone question, whereas question 35 (which is a relatively simple question, and not answer A, qbll) explains the way the questions are construed.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Leshy

Nod, for the record, what would your answer to question 35 be? As it appears you're looking at 34 as a stand-alone question, whereas question 35 (which is a relatively simple question, and not answer A, qbll) explains the way the questions are construed.

In the context, it really has to be B, however there are cases for the other three.

[Nodrog]

Id say b) for 34 because CD's, cassettes and vinyl are completely distinct existants in the world and any classification of them is entirely subjective to the consciousness involved rather than representing actual metaphysical properties of existence. The attempt to arbitrarily group them together by virtue of their subjective functionality represents the naive impierialistic reductionist nature of the Western mind and its inability to think holistically about the world, instead preferring to narrowly classify everything based on faux science and primitive aristotlean logic, often claiming objective existence for the entirely human created conceptual world maps which are in fact not entirely representive of the ontological territory. The problem with these things however is that you coudl probably write a rational justification for all of the options, meaning that it reduces to a "who thinks in the same way as the question-setter" problem.

[queball]

Originally Posted by Leshy

Nod, for the record, what would your answer to question 35 be? As it appears you're looking at 34 as a stand-alone question, whereas question 35 (which is a relatively simple question, and not answer A, qbll) explains the way the questions are construed.

Ok, 34 is B if you take these things as Venn diagrams over distinct objects.

And why not 35 A? Oaks can be deciduous or evergreen, but are all trees. (Note: not a tree expert)

[LHC]

34 B
35 C

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Leshy

Nod, for the record, what would your answer to question 35 be? As it appears you're looking at 34 as a stand-alone question, whereas question 35 (which is a relatively simple question, and not answer A, qbll) explains the way the questions are construed.

Probably either A or B depending on whether the concept of oak is entirely contained within the concept of deciduous tree, or whether they both are overlapping subsets of the concept 'tree' (I cant be bothered googling, neither of these alternatives may apply).

[MrL_JaKiri]

I thought all oaks were deciduous

[Nodrog]

I dunno man, I'm not a treehugger here.

[SYMM]

A deciduous is a type of tree, an oak is a type of deciduous. 35B
And following the same logic, 34B

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by SYMM

A deciduous is a type of tree, an oak is a type of deciduous. 35B
And following the same logic, 34B

If an IQ test actually measured intelligence surely it should give higher scores to those who were capable of using a 'different logic' in different cases, rather than uniformly applying the same narrowminded classification across the whole problem set?

[Obliterate]

I would say d) for question 34, simply because a cassette tape is the smallest, a CD is bigger, then a vinyl record is the biggest. (In terms of size)

[Structural Integrity]

34: A
35: B

35 is clearly a list narrowing down in... euh... class... tree is a broad concept, deciduos tree is a subclass of a tree, and an oak is a subclass of deciduous trees.

Applying the same logic to question 34, one comes to answer A. This time each item is of the same class, but their uses and properties overlap. All three are used for sound, tapes and vinyl are analog devices, tapes and CD's are used for data storage, and vinyl and CD's are both discs.
So, answer A illustrates their overlapping uses/properties and also show their own unique uses/properties.

I am teh win!

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Structural Integrity

34: A
35: B

35 is clearly a list narrowing down in... euh... class... tree is a broad concept, deciduos tree is a subclass of a tree, and an oak is a subclass of deciduous trees.

Applying the same logic to question 34, one comes to answer A. This time each item is of the same class, but their uses and properties overlap. All three are used for sound, tapes and vinyl are analog devices, tapes and CD's are used for data storage, and vinyl and CD's are both discs.
So, answer A illustrates their overlapping uses/properties and also show their own unique uses/properties.

I am teh win!

Already commented on this, but that solution is the one I'm least pleased about, because it mixes and matches properties and uses.

[Tomkat]

Oh, it's just a Venn diagram puzzle.

The answer has to be A.

It isn't B, because they aren't all completely separate. They all store data, and the data can be transferred from one to another.
It isn't C, because they all share properties. Two aren't exclusive of each other.
It isn't D, because there isn't an overall category the other two fall into.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Tomkat

Oh, it's just a Venn diagram puzzle.

The answer has to be A.

It isn't B, because they aren't all completely separate. They all store data, and the data can be transferred from one to another.
It isn't C, because they all share properties. Two aren't exclusive of each other.
It isn't D, because there isn't an overall category the other two fall into.

That line of argument doesn't work though, because you're making an assumption over what the question means, at which point it becomes more one of interpretation of the question, rather than of the answer.

[Leshy]

My personal answer was indeed B.

As question 35 indicates, the circles are representative of objects as a group. All deciduous trees are trees, but not all of them are oaks. When following the same logic, any answers which contain overlap in question 34 are incorrect by default, as that would indicate that, for example, some CD's were also cassette tapes, or that some cassette tapes were also both CD's and vinyl records. As they are three clearly different objects (I have yet to meet someone who mistakes a CD for a cassette tape), despite having a similar purpose and sharing some characteristics, there can't be any overlap, making B the only valid answer.

While an IQ test could award points for using a different approach, the same could be said for the ability to apply Occam's Razor and solve the problem, instead of adding complexity to it, making that a fairly moot point.

[Lupin]

34 d
35 b

am i right?

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Lupin

34 d
35 b

am i right?

Why not READ THE THREAD?

[Lupin]

your intelectual english is far to hard for me..

[JonnyBGood]

I'll go with my initial instinct on the subject.


Wtf, don't care.


I must be smert :)

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I must be smert

Smertin eh?

[JonnyBGood]

To be honest I didn't even bother opening the link. Personally I feel this adequately demonstrates my intellectual superiority.

[Ste]

I looked at Q35 and thought it said "tree, deciduous tree, cak" and I was just thinking "What is cak?"
makes sense now...
anyway
34c
35b
Hey it looks like we're discussing bra sizes again!

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Ste

34c
35a

Why, or just chosen out of the aether?

[Ste]

Oh sorry:
34C - because you can record onto tapes from records and cd's
35B - because all oaks are deciduous trees which are all trees...

(yes I changed my answer to 35...)

[Deepflow]

i was thinking d...

[SilverSmoke]

34D
34B

I would like to know the 'correct' answers now.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by SilverSmoke

34D
34B

I would like to know the 'correct' answers now.

It's commonly agreed that 35 is B, due to the fact that all deciduous trees are all trees, and that oaks are all deciduous trees, but not all deciduous trees are oaks, as not all trees are deciduous.

34 Is the one that's still under debate, I have no idea what the answers were to whatever IQ test these questions came from. They were posted 'as-is'.

[queball]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

I thought all oaks were deciduous

That claim is not falsifiable.

[Deepflow]

itt everyone thinks they are clever but are actually stupid (inc me)

[Dante Hicks]

This thread amply demonstrates the objectivity of the IQ Test.

I demand we begin sterilising people who fail to obtain a result over 110.

[Deciduous]

It's clear that question 35 is getting at a subtype-supertype relationship shown by the concentric rings (b).

You could claim different answers for 34 based on what your assumption of their supertype is. Like MrL pointed out, they could be grouped into Storage Media, which would hint at a) since they all have the overlapping property of being music storage media. If you assume the supertype is Music Storage Media, then the answer would most likely be b), but could also be a) if you assumed prerecorded media, which all share the property Read Only.
You could also argue c) because Vinyls record analogue data, CDs record digital data and Tapes can record both.
d) is a bit dodgy.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Deciduous

Like MrL pointed out, they could be grouped into Storage Media, which would hint at a) since they all have the overlapping property of being music storage media.

Then what are the three overlapping parts between two individual rings, and the non-overlapping parts?

You could also argue c) because Vinyls record analogue data, CDs record digital data and Tapes can record both.

Then what is the area of the 'Tape Circle' that is neither analogue nor digital?

d) is a bit dodgy.

D would make sense from a data storage perspective, where the CD is capable of storing more information than the cassette, which is able to store more data than vinyl.

[Deciduous]

Originally Posted by Leshy

Then what are the three overlapping parts between two individual rings, and the non-overlapping parts?
Then what is the area of the 'Tape Circle' that is neither analogue nor digital?
D would make sense from a data storage perspective, where the CD is capable of storing more information than the cassette, which is able to store more data than vinyl.

Obviously if you represent each individual object as a circle you are going to have difficulty making an exact representation especially where you have overlapping areas. I don't believe the illustration was meant to be as complex as you're making it.

Surely your description of d) depends how much tape is in the cassette and the type of tape used.
90 minute tapes are commonplace, whereas the majority of CDs are 74/80 minute anyway
This argument is like saying "How much mass does each have" or "How much volume does each have", basing your decisions on the physical capacity or dimensions rather than by the inherent properties the object has, which is what I think the question is getting at.

[vampire_lestat]

i'd say b because, if the tree one is a standard example, none of those is a type of the others (eg a cd is not a type of vynl record) of has a crossover point.
in the end it does result as a 'who thinks like the examener' tho.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Deciduous

Obviously if you represent each individual object as a circle you are going to have difficulty making an exact representation especially where you have overlapping areas. I don't believe the illustration was meant to be as complex as you're making it.

The answer to the questions depends entirely on whether the images overlap, and if so, in what way they do so. Hence, if two circles don't overlap entirely, that means that one portion of a circle is something the other is not. If your answer of c) says that the left circle is the vinyl/analogue, and the right circle is the cd/digital, then what is the area of the middle circle that does not fall into the analogue/digital areas?

90 minute tapes are commonplace, whereas the majority of CDs are 74/80 minute anyway

That is only applicable in the case of audio storage, and one could say that a CD can easily have a few hundred mp3's and thus a much longer playtime than the cassette tape.

Also, as per question 35, I believe these questions are simply about categories. In which case B is the only correct answer, as all of these media are on the same level of definition and thus cannot be categorised as each other.

[acropolis]

34 d because vinyl is bigger than cd's are bigger than tapes

35 is b because trees have rings that looks like that when you cut them down

[Deciduous]

Originally Posted by Leshy

The answer to the questions depends entirely on whether the images overlap, and if so, in what way they do so. Hence, if two circles don't overlap entirely, that means that one portion of a circle is something the other is not.

This isn't a Venn Diagram, but you're treating it like one.
I was treating the overlap as symbolic of a shared property.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Deciduous

This isn't a Venn Diagram, but you're treating it like one.
I was treating the overlap as symbolic of a shared property.[/url]Isn't that exactly what a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram]Venn diagram

demonstrates?

I'm treating them as categorisations, as per question 35. There's no reason to assume question 34 works in any other way than question 35 does.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Deciduous

This isn't a Venn Diagram, but you're treating it like one.

If it isn't a Venn Diagram, then it's just 3 circles. There is no way you can interpret it without using Venn ideas.

[Deciduous]

A Venn diagram would be like this ?
Where the circle represent properties of the objects, not the objects themselves.

Here we have 3 objects represented by circles. Where there are two different properties and only one of the objects has both properties, which diagram best fits?