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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 14:49   #1
acropolis
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Physics Question For You PhD Types

Okay, so Schrodinger is putty in your hands, and relativity was mastered by 7th grade. Sure, there is the occasional quantum relativity question that takes a couple minutes, but you are looking for a new challenge.

My question: why does the fooking bathroom scale read 20-25 pounds lighter on carpet? I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here, but no clue.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 14:51   #2
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This essay will help you understand.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 15:00   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by queball
This essay will help you understand.
Quote:
I have argued that the failure of present-day models to establish satisfactory foundations for physical theory, is due to a basic shortcoming of the language they use. To overcome this problem I have proposed to construct a new language, which is not lexical (i.e. based on a lexicon, or set of meaningful elements) but structural (i.e. based on the structures, the coherent patterns formed by the connections of elements which are intrinsically meaningless). The main advantage of this structural language is that its descriptions start directly with the level of dynamics, with the elementary processes and the irreducible patterns they form, whereas the conventional description reduces this dynamical, holistic world to a combination of independent, static pieces; and the main disadvantage being that even with this new structure-based langauge it is clearly unlikely an adequate solution to the bathroom scale paradox will ever be found. However, real progress toward a GUT....
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 15:01   #4
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Re: Physics Question For You PhD Types

Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
My question: why does the fooking bathroom scale read 20-25 pounds lighter on carpet? I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here, but no clue.
Some of the force is used to crush the carpet hence that force doesn't show on the scales.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 15:03   #5
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Re: Re: Physics Question For You PhD Types

Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
Some of the force is used to crush the carpet hence that force doesn't show on the scales.
obviously.

but.

whether on carpet or on concrete, in equilibrium there will be the same force from my body pushing down on the scale and the same force from whatever is beneath the scale pushing up.

i should add that i put the scale on top of a board set on carpet and it still came up short:/
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 15:07   #6
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Are you sure you stand on it the same way?

Also, are you comparing your weight on the scales on the ground floor to your weight on the scales in the bathroom on the 10000th floor?
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 15:09   #7
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yah but the force is 'distributed' or shared between two compressive surfaces or somesuch. If you imagine the scales to be simplified into springs, then on a concrete floor all the force is compressing them, on carpet its like having ickle other springs underneath the scale springs, so although the force is the same, its like having a bigger k, so x becomes smaller, and hence you appear to weight less.

or something

anyway only fat bastards* need to weigh themselves, join a gym and test your fatness by the size of clothes you wear.



* Or fat rugby players putting on 'muscle' and measuring how many pounds of 'muscle' they have put on.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 15:13   #8
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Re: Re: Re: Physics Question For You PhD Types

Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
obviously.

but.

whether on carpet or on concrete, in equilibrium there will be the same force from my body pushing down on the scale and the same force from whatever is beneath the scale pushing up.
Irrelevant, you're simplifying too much.
Quote:
i should add that i put the scale on top of a board set on carpet and it still came up short:/
Of course it did, you think crushing the carpet is somehow 'free'? It takes energy to do it which lowers the overall energy available to affect the scales. Capisce?
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 15:17   #9
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Physics Question For You PhD Types

Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
[b]Irrelevant, you're simplifying too much.

Of course it did, you think crushing the carpet is somehow 'free'? It takes energy to do it which lowers the overall energy available to affect the scales. Capisce?
Can you find anything wrong in his statement about equilibrium?
The only way "energy" (impulse?) would affect the situation is because springs are generally imperfect, and on carpet will get compressed more slowly when stood on, and friction in the mechanism will stop the scales by adding to the upthrust. But I doubt this is a significant factor.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 15:27   #10
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Physics Question For You PhD Types

Quote:
Originally posted by queball
Can you find anything wrong in his statement about equilibrium?
Yes, there is more than one action here. We have the action of his body on the scales, the action of the scales on the carpet, and the action of the carpet on the floor (assume the floor is utterly solid and this can be discounted). Then we have the respective reactions, floor on carpet (discounted though), carpet on scales, and scales on person. Overall there is an equilibrium but it's not the one he posited.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 15:31   #11
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Physics Question For You PhD Types

Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
Yes, there is more than one action here. We have the action of his body on the scales, the action of the scales on the carpet, and the action of the carpet on the floor (assume the floor is utterly solid and this can be discounted). Then we have the respective reactions (floor on carpet (discounted though), carpet on scales, and scales on person. Overall there is an equilibrium but it's not the one he posited.
What forces are there on acropolis except for gravity and the contact force of the scales? What forces are there on the scales except contact force of acropolis and of the floor? (and the weight of the scales, which isn't significant)
When you talk about the energy that goes into compressing the carpet I think you're confusing dynamics and statics.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 15:31   #12
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Physics Question For You PhD Types

Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
[b]Irrelevant, you're simplifying too much.

Of course it did, you think crushing the carpet is somehow 'free'? It takes energy to do it which lowers the overall energy available to affect the scales. Capisce?
i assumed that energy came from the change in potential as i move down the quarter inch or so as the carpet is being squeezed.

so let's take two springs, A and B.

and you are apparently looking at this as an energy problem, which ends up working the same way.

if i stand on spring A, i may depress it one inch. after being depressed one inch, it has absorbed an amount of energy equal to the change in potential as I moved down in the gravitational field.

If I stand on A which is on top of B, then I will naturally move down two inches, and each spring will absorb one inch worth of potential (assuming identical springs, which they won't be):/

so the scale would read the same.

but then maybe the problem is that I'm treating the carpet as a spring, and it isn't that springy?
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 15:34   #13
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i googled for like ten minutes, and this is what i came up with. be afraid.

Quote:
Dr D J C MacKay, Astrophysics
Room 961 Rutherford, x39852; E-mail: [email protected]; http://wol.ra.phy.cam.ac.uk/mackay/
Meet to discuss at 2pm on Tuesday 16 October.

1. Why do you weigh more, according to your bathroom weighing machine, when it is sitting on thick carpet? (E/T)
To a theoretical physicist, the idea is absurd, but ask anyone who thinks they have a weight problem, and they will know it's true: "You have to put the weighing machine on a hard floor, otherwise you'll appear to weigh more."
In this project you will design and carry out experiments on weighing machines to quantify this phenomenon, and work out a theory for it.

It is expected that a journal paper will result from the completed research project.
http://homer.phy.cam.ac.uk/part3/projects.html
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 15:37   #14
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Example time

Mass of person = 100kg
Acceleration due to gravity = 10m/s2 (how do you superscript)
Total downward force on scales and carpet = 1000N
Force required to crush carpet into equilibrium state = 50N (pick a number)
Total force on scales therefore = 950N

Divide that by the acceleration due to gravity and you get the reading on the scales, 95kg.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 15:40   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk

Force required to crush carpet into equilibrium state = 50N (pick a number)
Total force on scales therefore = 950N
Where is the reaction?
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 15:47   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by queball
Where is the reaction?
I'm not exactly up on the dynamics of crushing carpets but it doesn't happen 'free'. I could rework those equations using GPE but the answer would be the same and totally sidestep Newtons laws none of which are relevant for what I'm trying to illustrate.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 15:52   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
I'm not exactly up on the dynamics of crushing carpets but it doesn't happen 'free'. I could rework those equations using GPE but the answer would be the same and totally sidestep Newtons laws none of which are relevant for what I'm trying to illustrate.
You can't really sidestep Newton with classical physics. The equilibrium is the point with the lowest energy anyway, so losing energy to the carpet doesn't exactly help.

My preliminary guess is a combination of friction and the softer surface allowing the base of the scales to bend which might mess it up, or something.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:02   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by queball
You can't really sidestep Newton with classical physics. The equilibrium is the point with the lowest energy anyway, so losing energy to the carpet doesn't exactly help.

My preliminary guess is a combination of friction and the softer surface allowing the base of the scales to bend which might mess it up, or something.
The same energy cannot do two things, if energy is used to compress the carpet that energy cannot also be used to calculate the compression of the scales. It's an either/or situation. If it's any help try imagining the interaction between the tip of the carpet hairs and it's base as a seperate system in equilibrium, a seperate system that stores some of the potential energy being directed at the scales. Now metaphorically fold up the carpet and throw it away leaving you with a scales-floor system that contains less potential energy because some of it is stored in the carpet, that lower potential energy is what gives the lower reading on the scales.

I know precisely what I mean, it's just not easy to say
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:05   #19
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ObASCII

Code:
m = 100kg
g = 10m/s2


|   o
|  -|-  acropolis  |
|  / \	           | 1000N
| -----       	   v        /\
| |||||	scales	            | 	1000N
| -----        | 50N        |
| XXXXX carpet v     /\	50N
                     |
The equilibrium is solely defined by the static forces. The work done squashing the carpet comes from GPE lost from acro, but the entire system moves downwards, so this is fine.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:11   #20
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Gravity: 10m/s&sup2 (N/kg);
Mass of person: 150kg
Mass of weighing device: 1kg
Spring constant for solid floor: 1000000N/m
Spring constant for carpet: 2N/m

Force applied to solid floor by weight: 1510N
Force applied to carpet by weight: 1510N

Solid floor pushed down 1.51mm (irrelevant)
Carpet pushed down 755m (irrelevant)
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:17   #21
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Re: ObASCII

Quote:
Originally posted by queball
Code:
m = 100kg
g = 10m/s2


|   o
|  -|-  acropolis  |
|  / \	           | 1000N
| -----       	   v        /\
| |||||	scales	            | 	1000N
| -----        | 50N        |
| XXXXX carpet v     /\	50N
                     |
The equilibrium is solely defined by the static forces. The work done squashing the carpet comes from GPE lost from acro, but the entire system moves downwards, so this is fine.
Reduced to googling. All I've found so far is that my theory contravenes Newton's first law but the general consensus is 'So what?'.
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Last edited by Gayle29uk; 17 Feb 2003 at 16:27.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:19   #22
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Re: Re: ObASCII

Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
Reduced to googling. All I've found so far is that my theory contravenes Newton's third law but the general consensus is 'So what?'.
A) Did you see my googlelation?

which basically implies that it will be tough to google because no one really knows (or even has a theory).

B) I can't believe cyp put me down as 150kg. that's not cool.

C) in terms of the softer surface allowing the scale to bend, note that i put it on a board and did another run.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:23   #23
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Re: Re: Re: ObASCII

Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
A) Did you see my googlelation?

which basically implies that it will be tough to google because no one really knows (or even has a theory).

B) I can't believe cyp put me down as 150kg. that's not cool.

C) in terms of the softer surface allowing the scale to bend, note that i put it on a board and did another run.
I was pretty much choosing figures at random. But what's wrong with being 150kg, anyway?


Is the floor in both rooms reasonably flat? A 45&deg; tilt in one room would explain it. What kind of weight is it? Does it have any attachments to the ceiling?
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:26   #24
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Re: Re: Re: Re: ObASCII

Quote:
Originally posted by Cyp
I was pretty much choosing figures at random. But what's wrong with being 150kg, anyway?
That's near 24 stone like.

I think the wrongness is apparent
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:27   #25
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:32   #26
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Re: Re: Re: Re: ObASCII

Quote:
Originally posted by Cyp

Is the floor in both rooms reasonably flat? A 45&deg; tilt in one room would explain it. What kind of weight is it? Does it have any attachments to the ceiling?
queball theorized one of the rooms being on the 10000th floor. which was a neat guess.

but the fact of the matter is that it isn't just an experiment i did, it is a fact about all bathroom scales everywhere. most just say 'do not use on carpet.'

some claim to be 'usable on carpet,' but these range from inaccurate to ones where they simply attach four points to poke through your carpet and set on your floor:/ so they just work around it.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:37   #27
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Me v Google

I win \o/

New Scientist article about the solution
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:39   #28
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Why does that say 'Weighs more' when we were clearly discussing evidence that you seem to weigh less?
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:41   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by pablissimo
Why does that say 'Weighs more' when we were clearly discussing evidence that you seem to weigh less?
At a guess I'd say same problem, different implementation in the actual scales.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:42   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
At a guess I'd say same problem, different implementation in the actual scales.
Touché
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:44   #31
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i thought the reason for this was that the scale doesn't stand level on the carpet ?!?
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:44   #32
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The New Scientist theory is what I suggested, but as acropolis said, the same effect can be seen even on a hard board on a carpet.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:45   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by pablissimo
Touché
Or possibly bull****
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:45   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
Or possibly bull****
Your explanation works better than mine of 'Blame the pixies' so we'll stick with that
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 16:58   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by queball
acropolis is a giant spider
according to the BMI, at 150 kg with my height and age i would be at the high end of "morbidly obese."

However, if I could just tuck away a couple more cheeseburgers I would jump up to "SUPER OBESE" which would actually be kind of cool.

As to the scale deal, I had 180 pounds on the kitchen (ceramic; hard) floor

161 pounds on the carpet;

163 pounds on a board on the carpet.

I didn't do enough runs for it be 'scientific,' i.e., that two pound difference could just be random.

But it is possible that the 'new scientist' has accounted for two pounds leaving 17 unaccounted. Either way I'm going to get a better board and retry a couple runs. I can't believe no one else has a scale:/
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 20:05   #36
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Just out of curiosity, how thick is the board, and how flexible is it?
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 20:44   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cyp
Just out of curiosity, how thick is the board, and how flexible is it?
not very thick and too flexible.

hence my interest in doing more runs with a nice thick inflexible board.

*results to be posted tomorrow*
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 21:10   #38
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 23:48   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
Me v Google

I win \o/

New Scientist article about the solution
Actually, what you were saying was bollocks in every possible sense. It bears no relation to anything written in that article. What you said was quite simply wrong - there is no* other word for it.

The article says that the discrepancy in the measurements is an artifact of the design of the scales. You said it's because energy is used up and this somehow decreases the force you exert on the scales.






*two other words in fact, but they are only ever used by my tutor, and not about my work: poppycock and balderdash.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 23:53   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer
<snip>
Hey, guess what. YOU MISSED THE POINT!

I didn't claim 'I win' because I was right, I said 'I win' in the Me v Google battle.

Try reading the post you quote next time.
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Unread 17 Feb 2003, 23:58   #41
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Most weights measures your weight by measuring the decompression done in exchange for a lower gravitational potential. On a carpet, both the fibres of the carpet and the springs in the weight will be decompressed, so while the sum deformation done due to the gravitational potential is the same, it's now shared between the weight and the carpet.


Imagine a type of weight that is a spring suspended from a ceiling. If you connect a hundred springs in series, and attach the same weight, will ALL the springs be deformed as much?
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Unread 18 Feb 2003, 00:02   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
Hey, guess what. YOU MISSED THE POINT!

I didn't claim 'I win' because I was right, I said 'I win' in the Me v Google battle.

Try reading the post you quote next time.
Your post would appear to imply that you were putting your explanation up against what others could make google throw up, and then backing up your argument with 'evidence'.

If you will talk bollocks, I will assume you are doing something stupid if you do not clarify it, as I credit you with not a modicum of intelligence after your previous shameless display.

Sorry for not giving you the 'benefit of the doubt', as they say.
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Unread 18 Feb 2003, 00:06   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by W
Imagine a type of weight that is a spring suspended from a ceiling. If you connect a hundred springs in series, and attach the same weight, will ALL the springs be deformed as much?
If we assume that all springs are identical, that all springs are weightless, and that g doesn't vary over the distance,

then

yes.

(and they will all specifically deform as much as the one spring in the alternate example, again with the assumptions. not sure which you were asking, but the answer is 'yes' all over)
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Unread 18 Feb 2003, 00:07   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer
Your post would appear to imply that you were putting your explanation up against what others could make google throw up, and then backing up your argument with 'evidence'.
Only to you, everyone else understood. I was so clearly wrong in my earlier posts that it didn't need stating until you came along and completely misunderstood what was going on.
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Unread 18 Feb 2003, 00:18   #45
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No, I think it did need stating. I don't think you realise how ill-informed some people on here are. I'm not having people going around listening to that sort of bollocks about my physics.

Don't you try to make out that I'm the one who is ill-informed. I don't aim to be tuned into your wavelength, perish the thought. I already apologised for assuming you are stupid, rather than just bad at physics, before you had the chance to demonstrate it to me.

Now you just keep away from my precious physics. I find what you have to say on the topic absolutely offensive.
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Unread 18 Feb 2003, 00:26   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer
No, I think it did need stating. I don't think you realise how ill-informed some people on here are. I'm not having people going around listening to that sort of bollocks about my physics.
YOUR physics? And your original contribution to the sum total of human knowledge would be what exactly? When were you awarded your PhD? Sorry? You weren't? Ah, then it's not YOUR physics in any way now, is it?
Quote:
Don't you try to make out that I'm the one who is ill-informed.
You misunderstood the thread and it's change of direction. I realise letting go of cherished beliefs is often hard for scientists but do try to keep up, things do change you know.
Quote:
I don't aim to be tuned into your wavelength, perish the thought.
You couldn't if you wanted to dearie. Go back to Newton and Planck, you don't seem to be able to understand anything outside your own closed little sphere.
Quote:
I already apologised for assuming you are stupid, rather than just bad at physics, before you had the chance to demonstrate it to me.
Quote:
If you will talk bollocks, I will assume you are doing something stupid if you do not clarify it, as I credit you with not a modicum of intelligence after your previous shameless display.

Sorry for not giving you the 'benefit of the doubt', as they say.
Doesn't sound like much of an apology to me.
Quote:
Now you just keep away from my precious physics. I find what you have to say on the topic absolutely offensive.
You find it offensive? What a lovely excuse to deliberately post ****e whenever you rear your head.

Go back to 'Daddy', you're both as ****e as one another.
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Unread 18 Feb 2003, 00:30   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
If we assume that all springs are identical, that all springs are weightless, and that g doesn't vary over the distance,

then

yes.

(and they will all specifically deform as much as the one spring in the alternate example, again with the assumptions. not sure which you were asking, but the answer is 'yes' all over)
I guess I didn't explain carefully enough. You're right actually, but only because when you add more springs, the weight will drop more, and more gravitational energy will go into deforming the springs. Assuming that the weight will only drop the same distance if you add more springs, less deformation will be done to each spring.

Hmm, this effect should be the same on the weight tho, since the system will be in equilibrium. I'll be damned if I can see now why the weight would measure less (or more) just because it was on a carpet. After equilibrium was reached, that is.
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Unread 18 Feb 2003, 00:46   #48
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Funny you should say that, as I discovered Hooke's Law through 'experimentation' in my year 7 physics class. I'm just not credited with it as Hooke beat me to it by a few centuries. Sorry.*

(Actually I was just emphasising the point that I understand it and you don't.)

I don't have a DPhil (that's what they call them at Oxford uni) yet, but I'm getting there. Just let me finish my MPhys first, thanks. They don't give them out just because you understand relativity, electromagnetism, thermodynamics, classical and quantum mechanics, optics, circuit theory, and statistical mechanics which, incidentally, I DO SO **** OFF.

Also, I didn't misunderstand the thread, I misunderstood you, which (given the amount of shiet spewing forth from your mouth**) isn't exactly difficult.

*Yes, I know you were originally talking about Newton, but the thread has 'moved on', as they say.
**keyboard

W, I believe it is as explained in the article. What's all this about it making you seem lighter on carpet? I thought it was heavier...? Anyone?
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Unread 18 Feb 2003, 00:54   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by W
Hmm, this effect should be the same on the weight tho, since the system will be in equilibrium. I'll be damned if I can see now why the weight would measure less (or more) just because it was on a carpet. After equilibrium was reached, that is.
That point actually kept confusing me. Everything works out so well if you aren't thinking quite right.

Happily I had about five hours lying awake last night to think it through.

That, and why the hell they keep proposing 'quantum gravity' when all evidence points the other way and GR makes everything so easy.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer

W, I believe it is as explained in the article. What's all this about it making you seem lighter on carpet? I thought it was heavier...? Anyone?
As per the original question, my scale makes me lighter when it's on a carpet.

Queball theorized it being due to a different internal mechanical arrangement but the same principle causing it.

I responded that that principle was useless if the scale still read 20 pounds light while it was on a board.

Cyp asked how hard the board was, and that was a good question. I repsonded by saying 'not very, I'll try to run it with a better board tomorrow.'

I finished off by bitching that nobody else seems to have an available scale (or at least no one else has as much spare time as I).

That pretty much sums up everything.
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Unread 18 Feb 2003, 01:00   #50
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Yes, I expect it is a case of 'same package, different wrapper'.
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