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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 17:15   #1
Makain
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The US Voting System - The College

In the last 6 months since I joined these boards I have seen a lot of bashing of the US voting system, and a lot of people supporting it. All of this has spawned from the 2000 US Election and I feel I need to straighten something out. The current system using the Electorial College is the most flawed horrid thing ever conceived by man. And I will go on to explain it -

Lets say there are 5 states in Daceland. State A has 20000 people, and this 20 electoral votes, State B has 5000 people and thus 5 votes, State C has 12000 people and 12 votes, State D also has 5000 and 5 votes, and State E has 8000 and 8 votes. So there are 50,000 people and 50 votes. Except there is this unfair little rule that says if the majority of a state votes for a single canidate then the entire state must put all of its votes towards that canidate. So something that happened in the 2000 election will now be explained. There are two people running for president, Aryn and Gayle.

Let say 12000 people in State A voted for Aryn and 8000 voted for Gayle. So Aryn got 20 votes.

In State B 4500 people voted for Gayle, 500 for Aryn. So Gayle got 5 votes.

In State C 9000 people vote for Gayle, and 4000 voted for Aryn. So Gayle gets 12 more votes.

Its now 20 Aryn to 17 Gayle. With 16,500 voting for Aryn, and 21,500 voting for Gayle. See where this is going?

In State D 3000 voted for Gayle, and 2000 voted for Aryn. So Gayle gets 5 additional votes.

Its now 20 Aryn to 22 Gayle. With 18,500 voting for Aryn, and 24,500 voting for Gayle.

In State E, its really close, were gonna call State E Florida. 4500 vote for Aryn, and 3500 vote for Gayle. So Aryn gets 8 votes.

Final Result: Aryn wins the election 28 to 22. Even though 22,000 voted for Aryn while 28,000 voted for Gayle. Its in effect the exact opposite of what people voted for, and all because its counts where you live. And Aryn of course went to lead Daceland in a war against Iraq, and cut our civil liberties. I hope this convinced those of you who uphold the virtues of the current US Voting System.

-Alerick
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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 17:17   #2
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That was an awesome explanation, really.
But, no matter what, Daceland has no chance against Iraq.
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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 17:20   #3
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Nice clear explanation...

Thank you for your contribution,a gift basket of muffins is on it's way to you as we speak.

Have a nice day

And yeah,pretty flawed.
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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 17:20   #4
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Down with the college
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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 17:21   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cochese
Down with the college
And let's hang the dean!
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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 17:30   #6
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Yes, hang him by his ****!
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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 17:51   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cochese
Yes, hang him by his ****!

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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 20:28   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
That was an awesome explanation, really.
But, no matter what, Daceland has no chance against Iraq.
It would of Gayle had been elected, and thanks I am pretty proud of that explanation.
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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 20:34   #9
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Good explanation- and pretty gay voting system.
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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 20:42   #10
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at least your federalism works, ours doesnt :/
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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 21:11   #11
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This has been explained many times. Electoral system is fa more fair than a popular vote system would be.
Since your making up senarios here is another one. District A has 4 million people who always vote Democratic, District B has 2 million people who always vote Republican. District C has 1 million people who may vote either way. With popular vote Distric A's Democratic candidate will win evey election, regardless of which way District C votes. With the Electoral system District C becomes the deciding vote, giving both Candidates equal chances of winning, and assuring Distric B of a chance at representation.

There is no voting system worse for America than a Popular vote system.



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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 21:15   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nixjim
This has been explained many times. Electoral system is fa more fair than a popular vote system would be.
Since your making up senarios here is another one. District A has 4 million people who always vote Democratic, District B has 2 million people who always vote Republican. District C has 1 million people who may vote either way. With popular vote Distric A's Democratic candidate will win evey election, regardless of which way District C votes. With the Electoral system District C becomes the deciding vote, giving both Candidates equal chances of winning, and assuring Distric B of a chance at representation.

There is no voting system worse for America than a Popular vote system.



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but if the majority of the people always does want a democratic president, then that is what most people want. i really dont see how this is not fair?
how can it ever be fair if the votes of some people are worth more than those of others? i dont understand that logic (although we do exactly the same in the eu-parliament)
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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 21:21   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nixjim
This has been explained many times. Electoral system is fa more fair than a popular vote system would be.
Since your making up senarios here is another one. District A has 4 million people who always vote Democratic, District B has 2 million people who always vote Republican. District C has 1 million people who may vote either way. With popular vote Distric A's Democratic candidate will win evey election, regardless of which way District C votes. With the Electoral system District C becomes the deciding vote, giving both Candidates equal chances of winning, and assuring Distric B of a chance at representation.

There is no voting system worse for America than a Popular vote system.



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a democratic system is based on BY the people FOR the people based on what the PEOPLE WANT.
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CNN is liberal bull****...no wonder you people are so ****ing stupid. If you want a real News Channel try Fox News.
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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 21:22   #14
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And people say America is the epitome of a liberal, representative democracy.

How ****.
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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 21:28   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax
but if the majority of the people always does want a democratic president, then that is what most people want. i really dont see how this is not fair?
how can it ever be fair if the votes of some people are worth more than those of others? i dont understand that logic (although we do exactly the same in the eu-parliament)

It may seem fair if you are one of the Democrats, but if your one of the 2 miilion who NEVER, EVER see a candidate elected who addresses the issues that concern you, then you would not consider that fair.
Lets say District B has poor roads, making travel very difficult. However, District A always needs improvements of their own, and since they elected the leaders, all available money goes to District A, and District B's road system is never repaired.
Is that fair? To completely and permantly ban 2 million people from having a say in who leads the government?
To be fair, ALL voters MUST have a say in the leadership. This will NEVER happen under popular vote, the minority will ALWAYS be ignored. Popular vote is bad, ALWAYS, in a country as large and diverse as the US.
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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 21:33   #16
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that might be true, if you keep this "the winner gets it all"-idea. its not like all people in bigger cities vote for democrats, is it?

PS i would skip the whole college idea and have the parliament elect the goverment, like most others do
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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 21:35   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nixjim
It may seem fair if you are one of the Democrats, but if your one of the 2 miilion who NEVER, EVER see a candidate elected who addresses the issues that concern you, then you would not consider that fair.
Lets say District B has poor roads, making travel very difficult. However, District A always needs improvements of their own, and since they elected the leaders, all available money goes to District A, and District B's road system is never repaired.
Is that fair? To completely and permantly ban 2 million people from having a say in who leads the government?
To be fair, ALL voters MUST have a say in the leadership. This will NEVER happen under popular vote, the minority will ALWAYS be ignored. Popular vote is bad, ALWAYS, in a country as large and diverse as the US.

thats the most unrealistic situation ive heard presented in a while.

popular vote = what the people want = democracy
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Originally posted by Achilles
CNN is liberal bull****...no wonder you people are so ****ing stupid. If you want a real News Channel try Fox News.
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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 21:46   #18
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The Athenians executed Socrates and Phocion because the people didn't like them. The whole point of representative democracy was to acknowledge our own inability to govern the country without devoting it our sole, supposedly, attention.
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Unread 10 Jan 2003, 22:13   #19
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Re: The US Voting System - The College

Quote:
Originally posted by Makain


BLAH BLAH BLAH

You think the people who came up with the system didn't understand this simple example?

Try to understand WHY it was created the way it was created before you try to critique it. So far you have shown no understanding of why it was created.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 00:48   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by bobble
thats the most unrealistic situation ive heard presented in a while.

popular vote = what the people want = democracy

His original example was extremly unrealistic, designed to give the rersukts he wanted. Thus I used an equally unrealistic example to show the counterpoint, please try to read before posting.
As to your second point, that is true in small communities, but in a country like the US, where the vast majority of the people live in a few major cities, the popular vote system becomes a Dictatorship, where the people in 90% of the country have no say and are left at the whims of 10% of the country. (That is geographically speaking). Saying popular vote = what the people want = democracy conviently ignores 49% of the people at least 100% of the time. Now tell me how that is fair?
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 00:53   #21
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You cant use the problem the system was designed to fix as a reason why the system was flawed. Yes, we all know that the Electoral College allows a president to be elected even though he doesnt have the popular vote. However, this is not a flaw in the system, this is the entire reason why the system is in place.

Also.

State X has 10 electoral college votes and 10,000 people within it. 6000 vote for aryn, and 4000 vote for gayle. The state does not have to give all 10 votes to aryn - it could give 6 to aryn and 4 to gayle if it wanted to.

I do agree that the American voting system sucks, but just not for the reasons youve outlined.
Quote:
Originally posted by wutrax
but if the majority of the people always does want a democratic president, then that is what most people want. i really dont see how this is not fair?
how can it ever be fair if the votes of some people are worth more than those of others? i dont understand that logic (although we do exactly the same in the eu-parliament)
America is not a democracy. Half the system exists to prevent the majority using the other half to trample over the rights of the minority.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 00:59   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
You cant use the problem the system was designed to fix as a reason why the system was flawed. Yes, we all know that the Electoral College allows a president to be elected even though he doesnt have the popular vote. However, this is not a flaw in the system, this is the entire reason why the system is in place.

Thank you Nod, you are quite right,. That is the reason for the Collage, to prevent a President being elected by popular vote, because it was recognized long ago how unfair a popular vote election is in a large country, where every region has it's own unique needs and challenges, and the population is not evenly distributed.



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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:01   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nixjim
It may seem fair if you are one of the Democrats, but if your one of the 2 miilion who NEVER, EVER see a candidate elected who addresses the issues that concern you, then you would not consider that fair.
Lets say District B has poor roads, making travel very difficult. However, District A always needs improvements of their own, and since they elected the leaders, all available money goes to District A, and District B's road system is never repaired.
Is that fair? To completely and permantly ban 2 million people from having a say in who leads the government?
Wouldnt a better solution be if the Federal Government concerned itself solely with matters which it was Constitutionally entitled to deal with, and state level initiatives got funded by state level taxation?
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:03   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog

Also.

State X has 10 electoral college votes and 10,000 people within it. 6000 vote for aryn, and 4000 vote for gayle. The state does not have to give all 10 votes to aryn - it could give 6 to aryn and 4 to gayle if it wanted to.

I do agree that the American voting system sucks, but just not for the reasons youve outlined.
America is not a democracy. Half the system exists to prevent the majority using the other half to trample over the rights of the minority.

Also, it could give all the votes to Gayle, it does not have to vote the way the people did at all. In practice though it rarely goes against the majority in the state.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:09   #25
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:22   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
The Athenians executed Socrates and Phocion because the people didn't like them.
Which people? Do we have any statistics on this? Since the majority of Greek society wouldn't have been consulted (women + slaves) I don't see how this can be used as an example of popular bigotry gone amok.

And if we don't want states to trample over individual rights, then a better way would be not to empower states with such vast powers in the first place, or to devolve power as locally as is practical. We don't need dodgy electoral systems which obfuscate popular choice simply to keep a perceived "mob" in line.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:24   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
You cant use the problem the system was designed to fix as a reason why the system was flawed. Yes, we all know that the Electoral College allows a president to be elected even though he doesnt have the popular vote. However, this is not a flaw in the system, this is the entire reason why the system is in place.
nah.

the crazy college deal was forced due to the logistical impossiblity of counting all the votes acroos the entire country. at the time, the largest vote count came from an individual representatives' district, which wasn't that bad to count.

at the time, counting all the votes in an entire state wasn't even possible, so neither governors nor senators (who represent entire states) were elected popularly.

some pseudohistorians later found it politically useful to claim that the founding fathers had other reasons for doing that, but that didn't make it true.
Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
State X has 10 electoral college votes and 10,000 people within it. 6000 vote for aryn, and 4000 vote for gayle. The state does not have to give all 10 votes to aryn - it could give 6 to aryn and 4 to gayle if it wanted to.
eh.

nah. all states but two are constitutionally bound to give all their votes to the highest vote earner in their state.

the other two states are complicated, but they also have no choice in where they put their votes (so far they've always been forced to give them to the same candidate)
Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
I do agree that the American voting system sucks, but just not for the reasons youve outlined.
America is not a democracy. Half the system exists to prevent the majority using the other half to trample over the rights of the minority.
Reading this thread, I'm curious where people have gotten the idea that somehow giving 100% of the power to a minority is better than giving 100% to the majority.

It seems to me that is just an attempt to take a less than optimal situation and making it bad:/
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:25   #28
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Originally posted by Nodrog
Wouldnt a better solution be if the Federal Government concerned itself solely with matters which it was Constitutionally entitled to deal with, and state level initiatives got funded by state level taxation?
Not quite sure what your driving at here. On roads, there are Federal, State, and local roads, both city and county. Federal and state roads are built, maintained, and repaired by the State highway departments in each state, county roads by county highway departments, city streets by the city street departments.
All roads are open to travelers from any state, as well as visitors from foreign countries. Since local roads are not used exclusivly by local residents it seems only fair that they recieve some funding from the federal government, which they do. Most highway money comes from local taxes on fuel, the Feds chip in the rest. How does the Constitution prohibit the Federal Government from funding road repairs that benifit the country as a whole?




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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:32   #29
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Originally posted by acropolis

Reading this thread, I'm curious where people have gotten the idea that somehow giving 100% of the power to a minority is better than giving 100% to the majority.

It seems to me that is just an attempt to take a less than optimal situation and making it bad:/

No one has given either side 100% power. The collage was set up to prevent either side from having the advantage, (hint-equality)
If the minority had the power would we need two political parties? It would be the same situation, one side would always win. That doesn't happen, because the collage balances the vote out so all people, in every state, have a say in the election. Anyone who still does not see this really needs to do some serious research into how and why the collage works, a few posts on here aren't going to cut it for you. It is easy to critisize what you don't understand, and it is obvious many of you don't understand the Electoral Collage. It has flaws, but it still beats the popular vote by a country mile.



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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:33   #30
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A) It was not completely unrealistic since that is what happened in our last election if with a smaller percent margin. I gave realistic pie cuts of each state voting. Unrealistic is everyone voting for one person, or the election being decided by one vote. While the nation may not exist in reality, the situation is quite accurate.

B) I am not against the Electoral College as it does prevent some anti-minority president from being elected. I have a problem with the stupid little unfair law I outlined earlier that many states passed that says if there is a majority vote for one person all the votes goto that person. If it was distrubuted by the amount of votes a person received then we wouldn't have this problem.

C) There is something called the Senate which requires 2 people from region no matter how big and small. This is the primary safe guard against minorities being ran over with a steam roller. The minorities are represented when they elect people to Congress since its a regional election, the nation is represented when we elect a President and that President should be representing the majority of the nation he represents.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:37   #31
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Originally posted by Nixjim
Not quite sure what your driving at here. On roads, there are Federal, State, and local roads, both city and county. Federal and state roads are built, maintained, and repaired by the State highway departments in each state, county roads by county highway departments, city streets by the city street departments.
All roads are open to travelers from any state, as well as visitors from foreign countries. Since local roads are not used exclusivly by local residents it seems only fair that they recieve some funding from the federal government, which they do. Most highway money comes from local taxes on fuel, the Feds chip in the rest. How does the Constitution prohibit the Federal Government from funding road repairs that benifit the country as a whole?
I assumed you were using roads as an example of states receiving Federal funding rather than it being the actual point. Personally though, I dont see why roads shouldnt be financed at state level. Only actual national transportation (eg interstate highways/rail network etc etc) actually require finance from the top level. Little things like roads and intrastate travel could be handled locally.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:40   #32
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Originally posted by Dante Hicks

And if we don't want states to trample over individual rights, then a better way would be not to empower states with such vast powers in the first place, or to devolve power as locally as is practical. We don't need dodgy electoral systems which obfuscate popular choice simply to keep a perceived "mob" in line.
What benefit do you think the popular vote has over the electoral college system? If youre advocating changing the system, you have to say why the new system is better, rather than just pointing out flaws in the old one.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:41   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Makain
A) It was not completely unrealistic since that is what happened in our last election if with a smaller percent margin. I gave realistic pie cuts of each state voting. Unrealistic is everyone voting for one person, or the election being decided by one vote. While the nation may not exist in reality, the situation is quite accurate.

B) I am not against the Electoral College as it does prevent some anti-minority president from being elected. I have a problem with the stupid little unfair law I outlined earlier that many states passed that says if there is a majority vote for one person all the votes goto that person. If it was distrubuted by the amount of votes a person received then we wouldn't have this problem.

C) There is something called the Senate which requires 2 people from region no matter how big and small. This is the primary safe guard against minorities being ran over with a steam roller. The minorities are represented when they elect people to Congress since its a regional election, the nation is represented when we elect a President and that President should be representing the majority of the nation he represents.

The President is not, nor is he intended to be, elected by the people. As you say, he represents the nation, that does not mean the people, it means from sea to sea, from north to south. Thus, he is elected by the states, whos' votes are determined by the people in that state. So in a way, it is a popular vote, IN EACH STATE, rather than a popular vote over the entire country.

And I was under the impression that states could vote however they wanted despite the popular vote, but it is possible that I just happen to live in one of the states that has this option.

Also, you can not compare Congressional elections to Presidential elections, siince they are popular vote elections with no Electoral collage votes.



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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:42   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Makain

C) There is something called the Senate which requires 2 people from region no matter how big and small. This is the primary safe guard against minorities being ran over with a steam roller. The minorities are represented when they elect people to Congress since its a regional election, the nation is represented when we elect a President and that President should be representing the majority of the nation he represents.
rephrase this to say "prevents people from small state's votes from being only as valuable as people from larger states" and it works, if thats what you meant.

really, minorities are killed by the senate. if i am an ethnic or political minority that includes maybe 10% of the country's population, and i'm spread out, than i will manage to get 0 representation in the senate. the electoral college does the same thing. hypothetically, were there an oppressed minority in some state, the electoral system would take their votes (that they would cast for someone who intended to help them) and give them to the opposite candidate (who the majority in that state had voted for, assumedly do aid in continued oppression).

how either of those are good for minorities is beyond me.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:48   #35
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Originally posted by acropolis

the crazy college deal was forced due to the logistical impossiblity of counting all the votes acroos the entire country. at the time, the largest vote count came from an individual representatives' district, which wasn't that bad to count.

at the time, counting all the votes in an entire state wasn't even possible, so neither governors nor senators (who represent entire states) were elected popularly.

some pseudohistorians later found it politically useful to claim that the founding fathers had other reasons for doing that, but that didn't make it true.
It doesnt matter where it historically came from, I was talking about why its still in place. People like the electoral system because it limits the power of 'big' states. Therefore, using this in an argument against it isnt a very good idea - the people defending it are aware that what you are saying happens, but this is the very reason that they like it.


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nah. all states but two are constitutionally bound to give all their votes to the highest vote earner in their state.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:48   #36
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i like to belive that the founders of this great nation had a few decent ideas. one other reason the college is good that seems to be over looked is there is no chance at a runoff. if you have a popular vote someone must have 50% of the vote. in 1992 george bush sr would have been reelected because nobody had the majority thus forcing a runoff. almost certainly the 20% of the poplus that voted for perot would have voted for bush there by giving him the election in a runoff. the college is by far the easiest and best way to ensure americans have their voices heard. the college is the only way the iowa farmer can ever influence the election. think about it, if you could win the top 5 states in population, why would you bother with the other 45? instead of whining about the 2000 election, why not give some money to broward county so they can buy some voting machines made after 1900.

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PS i would skip the whole college idea and have the parliament elect the goverment, like most others do
different styles of government have different styles of elections. with the parliment electing the pm, it makes the pm beholden to the parliment and not always to the people of the country.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:51   #37
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Originally posted by Nodrog
Little things like roads and intrastate travel could be handled locally.
If they were only used by the locals you might have a point, but they are used by anyone who happens to decide to use them.
Unfortunatley, the states collect most of the money for road repairs and then distribute it back out, so State roads, which are few and far between but heavily travelled, are generally in great shape. The majority of roads are county roads, are not travelled as heavilky, and most are in poor to very poor condition. In my county alone there are over 200 bridges. Half are in poor condition, and about 30 need immediate replacement. With Federal help it will take fifteen years to replace the ones that are ready to collapse now, without Federal assisstance it will take 50 years. So where do you propose the extra money comes from without the Federal government? At present, it redistributes the wealth, the rich areas pay more, the poor areas get repairs they could never afford. Not idea, but it is better than letting the poor areas collapse from lack of funding, and the Feds do require state and local departments to finace a percentage of every project.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 01:57   #38
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Originally posted by Nixjim
If they were only used by the locals you might have a point, but they are used by anyone who happens to decide to use them.
Nonfunctioning road networks negatively affect tourism/visitations. If the road system is a mess, the state will lose money - its in their own interest to keep them maintained to acceptable levels, and they will normally get this money back. Failing this, they could use tollbooths, where non-residents had to pay to use certain roads, or even privitise certain parts of the system.

Quote:
Originally posted by Nixjim

Unfortunatley, the states collect most of the money for road repairs and then distribute it back out, so State roads, which are few and far between but heavily travelled, are generally in great shape. The majority of roads are county roads, are not travelled as heavilky, and most are in poor to very poor condition. In my county alone there are over 200 bridges. Half are in poor condition, and about 30 need immediate replacement. With Federal help it will take fifteen years to replace the ones that are ready to collapse now, without Federal assisstance it will take 50 years. So where do you propose the extra money comes from without the Federal government? At present, it redistributes the wealth, the rich areas pay more, the poor areas get repairs they could never afford. Not idea, but it is better than letting the poor areas collapse from lack of funding, and the Feds do require state and local departments to finace a percentage of every project.
Why should state wealth should be redistributed at all? If a state cant afford to maintain itself, tough luck - I dont see why other states should be compelled to bail it out because it is unable to fend for itself. Remember, if the Federal government wasnt involved in state level issues, the level of federal taxation would be a lot lower, so states would be able to finance essentials through increased taxation at state level. If the people in charge of running the state were incompetant , then that is the fault of the people who voted for them - not the other better-performing states.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 02:02   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
It doesnt matter where it historically came from, I was talking about why its still in place. People like the electoral system because it limits the power of 'big' states. Therefore, using this in an argument against it isnt a very good idea - the people defending it are aware that what you are saying happens, but this is the very reason that they like it.
true, but avoids the point in a slippery way.

even if 90% of americans wanted to end it, it still couldn't be changed. would take a constitutional amendment, which would take 38 states, and the thirteen states with only like 5% of the US population sure as hell wouldn't go for it.

obviously, right or wrong, no one is going to voluntarily give up what power they have. slave owners fought to the death to keep their power. kings did the same. slave owners were aware of what the abolitionists said, but it was the very reason they liked slavery.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 02:06   #40
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Originally posted by acropolis

state constitutions.
Then that isnt a fault of the system, is it? States are free to distribute their votes however they like.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 02:09   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Nonfunctioning road networks negatively affect tourism/visitations. If the road system is a mess, the state will lose money - its in their own interest to keep them maintained to acceptable levels, and they will normally get this money back. Failing this, they could use tollbooths, where non-residents had to pay to use certain roads, or even privitise certain parts of the system.
Not all states are equal. Rhode Island is 1,045 sq miles and has 1,005,984 people, thus there is lots of money to maintain a few miles of roads.
Wyoming is 97,105 sq. miles and has 455,975 people, very little income and lots of roads to maintain. Now to be fair, since the state is required to pay a percentage of all expenses, most roads in Rhode Island are paved, while Wyoming has many miles of roads that are still dirt, only the main roads are paved. Even toll booths would not raise enough money on roads that see 1 person a day, but still needs to get to town regardless.

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I dont see why state wealth should be redistributed at all. If a state cant afford to maintain itself, tough luck. I dont why other states should be compelled to bail them out because they are unable to fend for themeselves. Remember, if the Federal government wasnt involved in state level issues, the level of federal taxation would be a lot lower, so states would be able to finance essentials through increased taxation at state level.
Money collected by the state is redistributed within the state. In indiana Marion county/Indianapolis get the Lions share, counties along the Ohio river away from the main cities are almost forgotten by the state. No, it isn't fair, but that's how it works, and I personally don't know how to fix it.


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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 02:31   #42
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Originally posted by Nixjim
Not all states are equal. Rhode Island is 1,045 sq miles and has 1,005,984 people, thus there is lots of money to maintain a few miles of roads.
Wyoming is 97,105 sq. miles and has 455,975 people, very little income and lots of roads to maintain. Now to be fair, since the state is required to pay a percentage of all expenses, most roads in Rhode Island are paved, while Wyoming has many miles of roads that are still dirt, only the main roads are paved. Even toll booths would not raise enough money on roads that see 1 person a day, but still needs to get to town regardless.
But why should roads that cant support themselves be financed in the first place? If the people that use a road cant afford to pay for it, then what right do they have to demand that other people, living in a different state, pay for it on their behalf? If a state cant afford to pay for its roads, then its obviously doing something wrong. Investing a lot of money repairing a road that is used by 10 people a day counts as "something wrong" in my book...

The difference here is that youre arguing from the position that "If people need to use a road, that road should be paid for", while I'm arguing from "If people want a road, they should pay for it themselves". If they live in the middle of nowhere and cant afford to maintain a road that takes them to the city, then perhaps they should think about moving to the city, rather than demanding that the city pays for their road?
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 03:13   #43
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Originally posted by Nodrog
But why should roads that cant support themselves be financed in the first place? If the people that use a road cant afford to pay for it, then what right do they have to demand that other people, living in a different state, pay for it on their behalf? If a state cant afford to pay for its roads, then its obviously doing something wrong. Investing a lot of money repairing a road that is used by 10 people a day counts as "something wrong" in my book...

The difference here is that youre arguing from the position that "If people need to use a road, that road should be paid for", while I'm arguing from "If people want a road, they should pay for it themselves". If they live in the middle of nowhere and cant afford to maintain a road that takes them to the city, then perhaps they should think about moving to the city, rather than demanding that the city pays for their road?
The people do pay for roads, through taxes. Last I heard it cost about half a million dollars to pave a one mile streatch of road. Even paying up front to have just the section of road that crosses my property would cost me $250,000, it just can't be done. (The road I'm on is just graveled anyway). With the current system though, the money is collected, then spent where it will help the state the most. Thus, the 50 mile streatch of road in Wyoming that sees one car a day is still dirt, it simply doesn't warrant paving. Where the need is the greatest is where the money goes, not where one person says, I need a road here.
And BTW, in Wyoming, those people you think should move to the city are ranchers who own hundreds of acres of land. They kindof NEED to live where they do, if the country doesn't want to lose a major portion of it's beef production. You really should visit Wyoming sometime, I thought it was pretty enjoyable, I drove 69 miles and never saw a house, car, or single person anywhere, just cows and Badgers.




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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 05:53   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nixjim
This has been explained many times. Electoral system is fa more fair than a popular vote system would be.
Since your making up senarios here is another one. District A has 4 million people who always vote Democratic, District B has 2 million people who always vote Republican. District C has 1 million people who may vote either way. With popular vote Distric A's Democratic candidate will win evey election, regardless of which way District C votes. With the Electoral system District C becomes the deciding vote, giving both Candidates equal chances of winning, and assuring Distric B of a chance at representation.

There is no voting system worse for America than a Popular vote system.



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If you're a minority, that doesn't mean you aren't represented because your view has no chance of winning. If you vote, then that's what represents your opinions, even if you are downvoted by the rest.

I do see the point of the electoral college tho, it gives minority groups hope; in a true democracy, the minority never gets it's will, in a lets-pretend-this-is-democracy they can, if coincidence plays their way.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 06:01   #45
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Originally posted by Rick
Maybe they should make due with a dirt or gravel road (or grass trail) The state needs to be wholely responsible for its own internal infrastructure. It is still possible for the people in remote areas to buy high clearence 4wd viehicles (and chains and plows and winches) and then they dont need roads. Atleast this is possible until such viehicles are banned by enviormentalists, who live on the coasts, succeed in getting such gas guzzleing viehicles banned in which case they should be held responsible for building and plowing roads in remote areas so the locals can drive their mandated green hybrids.

But as nodrog has said, the federal goverment can and should still build and maintain the interstate highways. Its not just for the state its built in, and should not be its responsibility. The people of the coasts use the highways built across wyoming and nebrasa etc hundreds of times each day almost every time they buy something. It was shipped in a truck that was only able to get to them because of the roads. And the people of everywhere should be responsible for the roads that go across states.
Many places out west are only accessible WITH 4 wheel drive, and come winter, or worse spring, that is not good enough. You really have no idea how bad the roads out there are until you've driven them.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 11:09   #46
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Lets say there are 2²° candidates, Aryn, Gayle, TheMightyGoat, TheMightyGoat#2, ..., TheMightyGoat#1048574. Aryn plans to wipe out all life on the planet, Gayle only plans to wipe out humanity and other big mammals. The rest of the candidates want to solve all world problems, without wiping out humanity.

According to the Media, Aryn and Gayle will be getting the most votes. Therefore most people vote for Gayle, as otherwise their vote won't count, since noone else would vote for their favourite candidate. Due to people believing the Media, the Media is therefore correct (about that issue).
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 13:26   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
America is not a democracy. Half the system exists to prevent the majority using the other half to trample over the rights of the minority.
i didnt say it is. my problem was the usage of the word 'fair'
it cant be 'fair' if some votes are worth more than others
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 13:55   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Then that isnt a fault of the system, is it? States are free to distribute their votes however they like.
as long as the majority in each state has the option of taking all the votes from the minority and applying them to their candidate, they are going to keep it that way.

that is not how it is supposed to work.
that is not a good thing.
that is not something "that gives minorities hope"

and it is caused by the system which says that each state can decide how its votes are distributed.

states should not have the option of "being free to distribute the votes however they like" because they will always distribute to screw over the minority.

i.e., it is the fault of the system.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 13:57   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax
i didnt say it is. my problem was the usage of the word 'fair'
it cant be 'fair'.
I fixed your last statement, it was a bit too long.
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Unread 11 Jan 2003, 16:23   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Which people? Do we have any statistics on this? Since the majority of Greek society wouldn't have been consulted (women + slaves) I don't see how this can be used as an example of popular bigotry gone amok.
Yeah, because those two sections of society are really likely to vote independently and not just follow the mob. Right.....





Also, which areas does everyone think the government should be responsible for in the area of domestic policy?
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