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17 Dec 2014, 15:25
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#51
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Update to the stats
Wraith is now T1=CO T2=FI
Improved the E/R of the Lancer, Wraith and Beetle slightly
Added ship Weaver | Race = Cat| Class=DE| T1=FI T2=CO
Changed Scarab - It is now a Normal ship rather than an EMP ship.
Changed init on Defender 3=>2
CHanged init on Ranger 2=>1
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"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War"
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17 Dec 2014, 16:47
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#52
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
I like how you advice me to start over again on my set of stats that are actually GOOD, while you refuse to make any sensible changes your set which isn't close to as good
One reason to go DE over FR is that the DE fleet targets 5 classes, FR only four, means you can build one less ship.
I'm not adverse to giving cath a DE anti FI/CO and also possibly a pod, but I want to have a constructive discussion about it, i.e no comments from you please.
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Id told you to add a cath DE roiding fleet, and not make co less powerfull. Increasing the E/R for xan/etd anti CO does not solve the issue with DE.
All you are doing is making a DE strat less valueable.
This is where our stats differs the most, viable team ups for all classes in mine almost, and only one for your ziks/ter.
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17 Dec 2014, 17:44
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#53
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
What??
Every class from CO through BS is improved in my stats by having multiple races attacking together.
If a ETD steal fi pods then FI also is improved..
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17 Dec 2014, 18:39
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#54
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 88
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
What??
Every class from CO through BS is improved in my stats by having multiple races attacking together.
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Giving a pod class to a race doesn't mean that race is improved.
And stating that DE strat is as viable as FR strat just because you can build 1 less ship, doesn't either.
Ter and Zik DE rely on Cath getting De pods. Else they are pretty much useless on attacking.
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17 Dec 2014, 18:43
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#55
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Which class do you think is not improved by having multiple races attacking together?
I am fully aware that DE isn't the best class for attacking, but it is the strongest option defensively, so players who like to avoid incs can focus on DE. If caths steal de pods then de teamups are very viable.
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"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War"
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17 Dec 2014, 18:50
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#56
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 88
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Which class do you think is not improved by having multiple races attacking together?
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DE
Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
I am fully aware that DE isn't the best class for attacking, but it is the strongest option defensively, so players who like to avoid incs can focus on DE. If caths steal de pods then de teamups are very viable.
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Still the same issue: DE strat relys on Cath willing to covop to get DE pods.
So, you need Caths to research FR/DE Hulls + Ship Stealing.
Considering Cath also needs/wants Hulls, Cores and TT research, ship covop will only happen like t400 or later. Meanwhile, Ter and Zik DE might better take the round off til then ... or latestart.
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17 Dec 2014, 18:54
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#57
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
The first couple of hundred ticks almost noone defends, I don't see why zik/ter DE should have any problem whatsoever roiding Etd and Cat during that period. ALso, many terrans and ziks are unlikely to have hulls 3 early, so you can hit them early on too.
ALso, incase you haven't notice, Ter and Zik both have other fleets to attack with than DE; maybe use them early and switch to DE later? Alternatively, don't go Ter and Zik.
edit: it's also very possible for caths to attack some races with DE + co pods
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17 Dec 2014, 19:17
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#58
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Valle is my hero
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,581
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Ter and Zik are supposed to be late init races that pack a punch and are solid defensively. They shouldn't be some attacking powerhouse team.
Xan Fi doesn't even have a team but your not griping about that.
As Isil says, if you don't like DE then don't play DE.
I for one really like Terran Dr so ill be playing that
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17 Dec 2014, 19:42
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#59
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a bucket
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chatham, UK
Posts: 1,073
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba
Ter and Zik are supposed to be late init races that pack a punch and are solid defensively. They shouldn't be some attacking powerhouse team.
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That argument would make sense if it was the case across the board that they have bad init except that you have terran bs with good init teamed with another fleet that has good init. You also have zik cr with good init teamed with another with good init.
As you say you can choose not to play these races de, but the problem with that is why would anyone play de when the other options for both race are so much better? Would it not make more sense to make zik cr a bit worse and de a bit better or ter bs a bit worse and de a bit better? In both cases their team will remain good even with a worse ship as their teamup partners have emp.
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17 Dec 2014, 19:57
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#60
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by lince
So, you need Caths to research FR/DE Hulls + Ship Stealing.
Considering Cath also needs/wants Hulls, Cores and TT research, ship covop will only happen like t400 or later. Meanwhile, Ter and Zik DE might better take the round off til then ... or latestart.
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Cat is also the race with far and away the best research. If you combine that with staying on Demo for a bit longer than you otherwise would, a De fleet comes within easy reach.
Considering that pretty much any fleet roids well early on, that leaves just a small timespan during which Ter and Zik De lack EMP support. I feel this is more than made up for by the defensive strength of De. You can't have it all. A fleet that is strong defensively cannot also be strong offensively. Therefore, I oppose any further buffs to De, except for perhaps some tweaks to the effs of Cat De, either up or downwards, if sufficient reason can be given.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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17 Dec 2014, 20:08
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#61
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Saying that DE is good, even though you cannot attack with it?
"If you dont like DE dont choose it".
Well that means that less people will choose DE, and that again means that there will be more planets in the FR strat wich those few people that for some reason think DE is good cannot roid.
The whole structure of these strat is flawed due to DE, if you dont need to build vipers cus there is no reason _WHAT SO EVER_ to build Thief/Pegasus everything will be unbalanced.
Why is Thief normal? Couldnt it aswell be steal? Would you not want to steal beetles?
Fireblade AND Banshee out inits all DE. Where is the logic in this?
Dealer out inits zik DE. Want to roid a ETD with DE? Better hope you got a Terran handy, and pray to god that that ETD aint friends with some Xan that got Fireblades or Banshee.
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17 Dec 2014, 20:13
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#62
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Cat is also the race with far and away the best research. If you combine that with staying on Demo for a bit longer than you otherwise would, a De fleet comes within easy reach.
Considering that pretty much any fleet roids well early on, that leaves just a small timespan during which Ter and Zik De lack EMP support. I feel this is more than made up for by the defensive strength of De. You can't have it all. A fleet that is strong defensively cannot also be strong offensively. Therefore, I oppose any further buffs to De, except for perhaps some tweaks to the effs of Cat De, either up or downwards, if sufficient reason can be given.
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Id like to hear the ship strat guru of alliance X who would consider going for a covop strat based around stealing DE pods with these stats. Find me one that consider this is a good plan except you and kaiba.
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17 Dec 2014, 20:37
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#63
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
There will be PLENTY of de pods around the first week, shouldn't be a big problem to covop some. Also, why do you think everyone will go fr and de?
I don't remember fr being very popular in r56
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17 Dec 2014, 21:27
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#64
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
There will be PLENTY of de pods around the first week, shouldn't be a big problem to covop some. Also, why do you think everyone will go fr and de?
I don't remember fr being very popular in r56
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What is plenty in your eyes? DE aint a good option for attacking, and a lot of the ters will be heading for BS. Those few ters that will be having DE pods build it just to catch some easy roids early on, having em out flying with slow eta.
To some extent covops been used targetting popular attack classes. With these stats DE will NOT fall into this category.
I went covop last round, and used 200ish ticks on getting enough xan pods wich there actualy, in your words, plenty off.
You are now arguing stats like tiamata. Using examples to justify certain _RACE STRAT_ options wich is extremly hypotetical.
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RainbowS
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17 Dec 2014, 21:54
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#65
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Hey its just my opinion. If De is the worst class, then there must be lots of good options out there, cause the de fleets are ok and can also be faked.
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17 Dec 2014, 21:59
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#66
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
Saying that DE is good, even though you cannot attack with it?
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That is a gross misrepresentation of what I actually said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
Well that means that less people will choose DE, and that again means that there will be more planets in the FR strat wich those few people that for some reason think DE is good cannot roid.
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If De cannot roid Fr, and Fr can roid De, then no one going De will make Fr weaker, not stronger, by depriving it of targets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
The whole structure of these strat is flawed due to DE, if you dont need to build vipers cus there is no reason _WHAT SO EVER_ to build Thief/Pegasus everything will be unbalanced.
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If no one builds Vipers, then Ters and Ziks will want to build Pegs and Thieves to stop Co incs easily, which in turn will make Cats build Vipers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
Why is Thief normal? Couldnt it aswell be steal? Would you not want to steal beetles?
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Beetles, yes. Fi, no. Could move the T2 Fi to the Clipper, I guess, and then make the Thief steal? That would make the Clipper the only ship in the stats with a gap in its targetting, but I guess that's kind of a petty argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
Fireblade AND Banshee out inits all DE. Where is the logic in this?
Dealer out inits zik DE. Want to roid a ETD with DE? Better hope you got a Terran handy, and pray to god that that ETD aint friends with some Xan that got Fireblades or Banshee.
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What do you suggest, keeping in mind that a large overhaul of these stats is not on the books, from what I can tell from Isil's posts?
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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17 Dec 2014, 22:36
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#67
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 88
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Considering that pretty much any fleet roids well early on, that leaves just a small timespan during which Ter and Zik De lack EMP support.
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You noticed that Pegasus is outinitted by any fi/co, except, ofc, zik co's?
So, Ter DE option is attacking Ziks, due to Drake init 6. And Caths, ofc.
And for Zik, since Clipper is outinitted by any FR, that leaves only Ter as target.
With an excellent 54% eff vs Harpy. And Caths ofc.
And why Cath will go DE? init 3 on both emp ships (outinitted by both viper, defender, roach and guardian) and outinitted also on scarab?
Yeah, definitly best option for Cath.
That is just the issue i see on these stats: every other race/class has very good options for attack and defense.
Ziks just have to manage to steal CO's or BS and will have another 2nd fleet, besides the CR/BS one
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17 Dec 2014, 22:44
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#68
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
If zik/ter's inability to roid the only fault about these stats then I'm happy. I feel like all five races are very playable and should have a solid amount of players choosing them.
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17 Dec 2014, 22:52
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#69
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 88
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
If zik/ter's inability to roid the only fault about these stats then I'm happy.
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Ofc they can roid, even soloing, just not with DE: Zik with CR/BS and Ter with BS.
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17 Dec 2014, 23:02
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#70
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
FR can roid everything else aswell mz?
If no major overhaul is on the books, what is on the book?
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RainbowS
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18 Dec 2014, 09:17
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#71
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
These stats are pretty much final barring anyone coming up with some real fine ideas. The stats were good to begin with, now they have been fine-tuned, so they are even better.
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18 Dec 2014, 09:38
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#72
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Could you list up all changes from the originals?
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RainbowS
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18 Dec 2014, 09:40
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#73
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Update to the stats
Wraith is now T1=CO T2=FI
Improved the E/R of the Lancer, Wraith and Beetle slightly
Added ship Weaver | Race = Cat| Class=DE| T1=FI T2=CO
Changed Scarab - It is now a Normal ship rather than an EMP ship.
Changed init on Defender 3=>2
CHanged init on Ranger 2=>1
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18 Dec 2014, 11:51
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#74
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
I guess the changes in your stats means that there will be very few alliances going CO.
The most vital change you made in your stats was moving the scarab from EMP to Normal.
Now Appocomaster should save the stats so we can move onto Machados stats, im not sure how Close to finish he is With his.
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18 Dec 2014, 11:52
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#75
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 88
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Ziks want to steal CO, not FI, since it's pretty useless on Zik fleet combo.
So, cutlass or thief should steal CO T1.
Also, Etd should have the chance to steal FR; stealing CO is ok, but not one of the attack fleets. Even with a low eff, devastator should have the chance to steal FR T2.
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18 Dec 2014, 14:18
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#76
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Anyone else got thoughts on changing cutlass targetting to T1=CO T2=FI
and adding a T2=FR(with reduced eff) on the dev?
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18 Dec 2014, 14:31
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#77
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
I think they are as good as they can get atm without major changes
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RainbowS
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18 Dec 2014, 14:37
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#78
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
I agree there, without major changes to the game mechanics of pa it's hard to get stats much better.
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18 Dec 2014, 14:38
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#79
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 477
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
stats is looking decent zik looks the least useful to me atm, doubt any of the 2 suggested changes will impact the stats much
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18 Dec 2014, 14:48
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#80
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
I agree there, without major changes to the game mechanics of pa it's hard to get stats much better.
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I meant changes to your stats
I have a diffrent look at stats than you, so we wont agree what ever we do. Just finish em fast so we can start breaking down the 3rd set
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RainbowS
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18 Dec 2014, 16:19
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#81
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 88
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu
stats is looking decent zik looks the least useful to me atm, doubt any of the 2 suggested changes will impact the stats much
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Not intended to "impact the stats much", just making zik a little better than "least useful".
Anyway, Mz already suggested Thief change.
As Zik, you don't want to "kill" CO, instead steal those.
That on expense of Zik DE not able to soloing Ter for the 1st 200 ticks is pretty much nothing.
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18 Dec 2014, 16:46
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#82
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
So a possible solution could be;
Thief changed to STEAL T1=CO
Clipper changed to T1=FR T2=FI
Harpy changed to init 9
Pegasus changed to init 10
What do you think about that?
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18 Dec 2014, 16:53
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#83
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 88
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Agreed. Just be aware of thief vs corsair init: thief had init advantage.
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18 Dec 2014, 17:36
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#84
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
So you think thief should be init 18?
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18 Dec 2014, 19:51
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#85
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 88
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Yeah.
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18 Dec 2014, 20:22
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#86
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
The Thief change sounds good to me (but then I would say that), but the Cutlass change I'm not a fan of. While I agree with the motivation (Ziks don't want Fi), making a steal ship fire at itself tends to be a bad idea.
A better fix might be to make Ziks want Fi by adding a Zik Fi. That would also allow a simpler change to the Thief, just make it steal at init 18, no target swaps necessary.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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18 Dec 2014, 20:25
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#87
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
So perhaps give zik a FI killship with T1=DE?
I'm not sure we need to take it that far though, maybe just stop with the Thief
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"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War"
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19 Dec 2014, 00:52
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#88
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Leader Of The Gang
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 455
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
I think these stats dont need to be adjusted.
CO shouldnt be nerphed, all the CO allies that round got shafted
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yeah he is speaking the truth
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20 Dec 2014, 13:12
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#89
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Valle is my hero
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,581
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adapt
yeah he is speaking the truth
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No he isnt, he is just chatting drivel as per...
The major mistakes Bitcher makes when analysing previously used stats is to confuse the politics of that round with how the stats actually interacted with each other.
It is of no relevance wether Co alliances got 'shafted' or if CR was OP or whatever as this was all based on the politics of THAT round. All we need is a bcalc to check the balance of interactions between the classes and races and make sure there is enough options available to make the players choice of race and class not straight forward.
To lince who i campaigning to make Zik 'playable' i am dismayed that Isil has caved in on this. I think Zik is ruined now and was fine as it was. When you give Zik the power to steal on the same class it becomes very OP. Im a big believer that Zik should always be set so for example DE steals CO or CR steals DE and at a push that FR steals DE and FI steals CO but NEVER that CO steals CO etc...
Those that complain about Zik invariably dont know how to play it and just love the idea of stealing something.
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20 Dec 2014, 13:40
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#90
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Portugal
Posts: 88
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba
No he isnt, he is just chatting drivel as per...
The major mistakes Bitcher makes when analysing previously used stats is to confuse the politics of that round with how the stats actually interacted with each other.
It is of no relevance wether Co alliances got 'shafted' or if CR was OP or whatever as this was all based on the politics of THAT round. All we need is a bcalc to check the balance of interactions between the classes and races and make sure there is enough options available to make the players choice of race and class not straight forward.
To lince who i campaigning to make Zik 'playable' i am dismayed that Isil has caved in on this. I think Zik is ruined now and was fine as it was. When you give Zik the power to steal on the same class it becomes very OP. Im a big believer that Zik should always be set so for example DE steals CO or CR steals DE and at a push that FR steals DE and FI steals CO but NEVER that CO steals CO etc...
Those that complain about Zik invariably dont know how to play it and just love the idea of stealing something.
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Unless i didn't understood right ( my english might have failed me on this):
1st: never said that CO should steal CO (the change on cutlass targetting was suggested, since any change on the DE was objected til then).
2nd: Zik able to steal CO gives them a better attack fleet than DE, which, in my view, is purely defensive, if they happen to steal CO.
3rd: the ability of Zik to steal something is to improve their fleets, which usually lack initiative.
4th: and Zik steal FI just because...?
5th:with these stats, i won't go Zik, unless big changes on the DE, which will never happen.
Last edited by lince; 20 Dec 2014 at 14:21.
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20 Dec 2014, 15:41
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#91
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba
All we need is a bcalc to check the balance of interactions between the classes and races and make sure there is enough options available to make the players choice of race and class not straight forward.
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I don't entirely agree. The race choices of the vast majority of active players are determined by alliance fleet strategies. Races can work fine when you play them against each other 1v1 or 2v2 in a bcalc, but fail to provide a solid alliance strategy. Both aspects must be taken into account.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba
Isil has caved in on this.
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Nothing has changed since Isil added the Weaver.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 20 Dec 2014 at 15:49.
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20 Dec 2014, 19:36
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#92
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
PA has always, and will always be determined on what you can cover yourself with in a race strat.
If DE aint gonna be played, it will hurt the whole dynamics of the stats
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RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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21 Dec 2014, 02:22
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#93
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Why?
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"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War"
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21 Dec 2014, 11:49
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#94
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Okay, so I'm torn on what I'm gonna be doing re: zik DE;
The current options are;
1. Keep it as it is, no changes.
2. Thief changed to T1=CO type = steal and Clipper becomes T1=FR T2=FI. Harpy gets init 9 and Pegasus init 10
3. Thief changed to Steal - Add a FI class anti DE killship to zik.
Whichever one people lean towards I'll implement
__________________
"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War"
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21 Dec 2014, 15:24
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#95
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 297
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Option 2 seems best to me.
One problem with Zik is always the accidental stealing that messes up your fleet, with Thief stealing Co, this doesnt seem to be a big problem.
There shouldn't be a lot of Co fleets that defend vs the Zik DE attack, basically only Vipers, and those would actually be nice to steal. Since your DE fleet lacks anti DE so you need to fill that hole somehow anyway.
Tho not sure how the init will be compared to init of the Corsair?
Clipper killing FR/Fi is nice, you probably dont want to steal those shipclasses anyway.
I think this change would make DE a bit stronger vs CO fleets, and make Zik DE tempting to play. Makes the DE a bit more different from the Terran DE and give them their own advantage over Terran DE. So that if a bp/ally decides to go DE, a mix is better than just having Terrans.
oh and with option 3 - you kinda make Zik's nicer, but weaken their DE at same time with the extra fi killing DE.
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21 Dec 2014, 17:10
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#96
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
In option #2 I guess thief would be init 18
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"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War"
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22 Dec 2014, 05:23
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#97
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 957
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Changing Thief to steal Co will do absolutely nothing. The only people that will build the Thief over Cutlass are those going for DE, not CO. Cutlass will always be the better option if you want to build a good CO fleet. You don't need anything other than DE+Pirate to target everything, so why would you want to steal CO? IF (and that's a big if) people would go for Zik DE, they will want to kill shit, not steal it and lose value in their DE fleet.
Zik had one thing going for itself, and that was the Cutlass. Zik DE sucked, Zik CR sucked (are we just going to ignore the fact that it's the only fleet that has 3 ST ships of which only one is good?).
Lower Thief's init to 5 (and perhaps dump War Frigate, change some effs, Pegasus T1=Fi and/or move T2 to Drake, etc) and we can talk about Thief being built over Cutlass.
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22 Dec 2014, 14:25
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#98
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
You will always want to steal EMP ships, either for you attack fleet or for defence. Who wouldnt want beetles?
Zik is a stealing race, and most rounds theyve been changed around to be a killer race(Tia stats a good example), the stats has been crap
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RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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22 Dec 2014, 16:25
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#99
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 957
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
There is no reason to go for DE and try to steal/go for CO. Even stealing Beetles will mean you're about even against Xan FI, but weaker against CO. If you want to steal CO just go for Cutlass.
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22 Dec 2014, 17:18
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#100
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: Isils round 60 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc
There is no reason to go for DE and try to steal/go for CO. Even stealing Beetles will mean you're about even against Xan FI, but weaker against CO. If you want to steal CO just go for Cutlass.
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Beetles is usualy the most desired ship in any ship stats. In eta FI def, and alongside cutlass good for CO def.
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RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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