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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 21:09   #1
ChubbyChecker
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World War I

Having just watched a documentary about the battle of the Somme (not as futile as some would think it seems) it got me wondering about World War I in general.

World War I was supposed to be "the war to end all wars", as we know things didn't quite work out that way. But did anything useful come out of World War I at all? Personally I've always seen it as a dress rehearsal for the real World War but do any of you think differently?
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 21:18   #2
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Re: World War I

without getting into another GDesque discussion on what you mean, ill get into another GDesque discussion on what you mean.

What do you mean by 'useful', as with any other war certain innovations and discoveries were made that went on to be industrially useful. Whether that was worth the slaughter of millions is another matter. In a politcal world view context i doubt anyone sees any merit in the war in itself, ie its aims and objectives were lunacy, but i suppose you could argue it had major knock on implications in terms of social revolution (russia for example or the role of women in society in britain).
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 21:29   #3
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Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
World War I was supposed to be "the war to end all wars", as we know things didn't quite work out that way. But did anything useful come out of World War I at all?
I don't know about useful but basically it had something to do with the end of the German Empire and the German monarchy, the end of the Ottoman Empire, the league of nations, the Weimar republic, the end of traditional warfare and the beginning of mechanized warefare, a new era of navy vessels (via the dreadnaught), introduction of air combat, the end of the Romanovs, the rise of communism, the rise of facsim & nationalism, the importance of industrialization (for military and economic purposes)...
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 21:46   #4
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Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
What do you mean by 'useful'
Did it change the way the world was? Did it have any positive effect on the countries directly / indirectly involved? Social change is a big one, I suppose military change could be taken into account, to a lesser extent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
but i suppose you could argue it had major knock on implications in terms of social revolution (russia for example or the role of women in society in britain).
Well, even Lenin said that the Bolshevik revolution would not have been possible if Russia had stayed out of the war. But was this a useful change? Russia was a pretty backward country at the time but I'm not sure if the revolution helped it too much in the long run. Sure, Russia made great strides in for example the space race a few decades later but even now Russia is still feeling the side effects of communism and probably would have prospered anyway what with all the natural resources it has at its disposal.

As for Britain, Lloyd George did implement some wide reaching changes (eg universal suffrage) soon after the war ended but the 19th century saw a lot of reform in these areas and I don't think there was much sign of this stopping during the early part of the 20th century. I guess you could say that the war acted as a catalyst for change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I don't know about useful but basically it had something to do with the end of the German Empire and the German monarchy, the league of nations, the Weimar republic,
As for the German Empire (such as it was) didn't the areas under German control just change hands? Not much of a change for the people involved surely.
The Weimar republic did appear to be a positive step at the time but I think the fact that the Nazis destroyed it soon after kind of nullifies that point.
And the League of Nations, well, it wasn't particularly useful while it lasted and did nothing to stop World War II coming about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
the end of the Ottoman Empire,
I'll give you that one

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
the end of traditional warfare and the beginning of mechanized warefare, a new era of navy vessels (via the dreadnaught), introduction of air combat,
Not to mention the introduction of tanks. But military innovations would have happened regardless, it didn't take 8 million casualties for that to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
the rise of facsim & nationalism, the importance of industrialization (for military and economic purposes)...
Well, I'm not sure about facsism, I think the Great Depression probably had more to do with it than WWI. But I don't think it was a particulary useful step anyway.
As for industrialisation, didn't Ford invent mass production before WWI even started?
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 21:48   #5
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Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
Having just watched a documentary about the battle of the Somme (not as futile as some would think it seems) it got me wondering about World War I in general.

World War I was supposed to be "the war to end all wars", as we know things didn't quite work out that way. But did anything useful come out of World War I at all? Personally I've always seen it as a dress rehearsal for the real World War but do any of you think differently?

Medical advances were huge. It also left Britain and France economically crippled and the empire was beginning to have trouble as a result. Tanks were developed for WW1 although very basic. It spurred on technology considerably really.



As for 'not as bad as it seemed', if you focus in on the battle by itself it was a rather massive disaster for the British forces. Too many died for the little land gained. On the eastern flank a General (i cant remember the guys name) broke German lines but as he was then 'ahead' of the rest of British forces was told to hold his position instead of looping around and bringing fire on the Germans from both sides. The whole battle was a farce when it came to tactical planning. Charging cavalary at guns and artillary was just retarded. When i studied it in depth and read a heap of books it struck me that in some ways the blackadder sketch of the general just knocking down great swathes off men on his play battlefield wasnt too far from the truth. Some of the ideas were just bizarre as to how it should be conducted.

However the 'bigger' picture the somme was (some would say) instrumental in bringing about German defeat. Heavy losses were incurred on both sides and the Germans took an absolute hammering. They lost a valuable line of defence etc etc and this led to the eventual defeat of Germany. I think (and this is from 2 years ago) a fair few experts estimate it shortened the war by a year or more or somesuch.


I have a university piece i wrote on the somme which got a first (go team me) but as my pc is currnetly lying in tatters with just about everything blown up i cant read it and post any useful comments here.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 21:56   #6
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Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
As for the German Empire (such as it was) didn't the areas under German control just change hands? Not much of a change for the people involved surely.
The Weimar republic did appear to be a positive step at the time but I think the fact that the Nazis destroyed it soon after kind of nullifies that point.
And the League of Nations, well, it wasn't particularly useful while it lasted and did nothing to stop World War II coming about.
The League of nations was important in so much as it created a precedent which later led to the creation of the United Nations. The reason it failed so dramatically was that American congress voted against joining it even though it was primarily championed by Wilson (President of the USA). As such with no American involvement it was like the old boys club of France, England, Russia on one side and Germany etc on the other side.

Quote:
Not to mention the introduction of tanks. But military innovations would have happened regardless, it didn't take 8 million casualties for that to happen.
Just much much much more slowly.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 22:13   #7
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Re: World War I

The main benefits of WW1 (the Great War) were simply that we "learnt some lessons that we won't repeat". Such as making negotiations/alliances with countries that then mean we're drawn into hostilities over something which doesn't really concern us.

o wait no it didnt
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 22:28   #8
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Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
The main benefits of WW1 (the Great War) were simply that we "learnt some lessons that we won't repeat". Such as making negotiations/alliances with countries that then mean we're drawn into hostilities over something which doesn't really concern us.

o wait no it didnt
What? Are you quite serious?
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 22:41   #9
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Re: World War I

Personally I think one result from WWI is that nations did agree not to use chemical and biological weapons against each other after that war.
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 23:14   #10
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Re: World War I

white phosphorus is so much more up-to-date
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Unread 2 Jul 2006, 23:54   #11
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Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
*Cough* Agent Orange *Cough*
A quick read of wikipedia leads me to believe that Agent Orange isn't really a chemical "weapon" as such. Granted it might have some nasty side effects but they weren't really known about at the time and it wasn't it's intended purpose
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 00:05   #12
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Re: World War I

the menstruation-thread is better.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 09:11   #13
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Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Personally I think one result from WWI is that nations did agree not to use chemical and biological weapons against each other after that war.
We also abolished war about ten years later.


Unfortunately nobody really pays much attention to either resolution
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 10:41   #14
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Exclamation Re: World War I

The world would quite probably have been a good deal better if the Central Powers had won. Or, at least, won by default in the west and as they did historically in the East.

But of course, the whole thing itself was a monstrous, barbaric and wicked.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 10:52   #15
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Re: World War I

You mean because of the resultant unlikelihood of the rise of Hitler and such? Or more intrinsically?
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 10:58   #16
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Exclamation Re: World War I

The victory of the Central Powers would - we can say this with almost total certainity - have put the kibosh on Nazism, and quite possibly Italian Fascism too. (On the reasonable assumption Italy joins the Central Powers and is rewarded territorially, and doesn't have the meat-grinder of the Isonzo.)

I think that we can all agree that would have been pretty good for the world in general.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 11:02   #17
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Re: World War I

But the British wouldve lost. We never lose. Even when its the best thing to do for humanity and especially not against those sausage eating germans. What a terribly silly arguement you put foward what what.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 11:06   #18
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Exclamation Re: World War I

Oh, and the Soviet Union would have been deprived of the Ukraine*, Belorussia and the Baltics which would all have been German satelites. So you would have had containment fifty years before it happened in real life. And without the SU taking over half of Europe beforehand.

*No Ukrainian 'famine', yo.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 11:06   #19
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Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
The victory of the Central Powers would - we can say this with almost total certainity - have put the kibosh on Nazism, and quite possibly Italian Fascism too. (On the reasonable assumption Italy joins the Central Powers and is rewarded territorially, and doesn't have the meat-grinder of the Isonzo.)

I think that we can all agree that would have been pretty good for the world in general.
I don't think this is the sort of historical claim you can make. It would be quite easy to envision the rise of fascism in france or britain with the situations being reversed.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 11:19   #20
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Exclamation Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
It would be quite easy to envision the rise of fascism in france or britain with the situations being reversed.
I don't think it's remotely plausible to envisage the rise of Fascism in a defeated Britain - Britain simply has a too strongly entrenched parliamentary culture, which could have weathered the storm of defeat - which, in any case, would almost certainly not have been a punitive peace like that leveled on Germany historically - Germany simply wouldn't have had the ability to command such a position. If Germany wins on the continent, then Britain and Germany will eventually have to come to terms on a return to a more or less pre-war status quo position.

France is even less likely to go Fascist than Britain in any such eventuality. You do realise how petty, unsuccessful and disparate French Fascism between the wars was, don't you? I conceed that The Third Republic is unlikely to weather the storm of defeat, but the most likely outcome of that, based on how well the two politically extremes did historically betwen the wars, would be a radical Socialist or Communist government, not a Fascist one - perhaps an authoritarian right-wing government, a la Vichy, if we're lucky. But a successful French Fascism? Pretty unlikely.

Personally, I'd be quite content in a world were one half of the totalitarian coin was put out to grass before it could even get on it's feet.

Last edited by Marilyn Manson; 3 Jul 2006 at 11:29.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 11:29   #21
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Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
I don't think it's remotely plausible to envisage the rise of Fascism in a defeated Britain - Britain simply has a too strongly entrenched parliamentary culture, which could have weathered the storm of defeat - which, in any case, would not have been a punitive peace like that leveled on Germany historically.
At this stage a lot of people didn't really conceive of fascism as diametrically opposed to democracy though. It really depends on how the economic structure of the world would have changed during the 20s and 30s. A thousand year parliamentary culture is all well and good but i think you're underestimating how quickly individuals alter their outlook inside a generation. Also by not a punitive peace do you mean germany wouldn't have demanded reparations?

Quote:
France is even less likely to go Fascist than Britain in any such eventuality. You do realise how petty, unsuccessful and disparate French Fascism between the wars was, don't you? I conceed that The Third Republic is unlikely to weather the storm of defeat, but the most likely outcome of that, based on how well the two politically extremes did historically betwen the wars, would be a radical Socialist or Communist government, not a Fascist one - perhaps an authoritarian right-wing government, a la Vichy, if we're lucky. But Fascism? Pretty inconcievable.
To be honest dude I'm not too sure how fantastic a bastion of marxism in western europe would have been either.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 11:36   #22
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Exclamation Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
At this stage a lot of people didn't really conceive of fascism as diametrically opposed to democracy though.
?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
It really depends on how the economic structure of the world would have changed during the 20s and 30s.
I don't see how, internationally at least, could have diverged greatly from that which we know historically. Of course certain domestic trends are likely going to be a lot different but I think the general world economic position is going to be fairly similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
A thousand year parliamentary culture is all well and good but i think you're underestimating how quickly individuals alter their outlook inside a generation.
Perhaps, but I don't see how you can say that the national trauma, the rectification of which was the raison d'etre of Fascism, could realistically be replicated in Britain, even a defeated one. Britain just didn't have enough to lose, politically speaking, from the war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Also by not a punitive peace do you mean germany wouldn't have demanded reparations?
I don't see how Germany could have demanded reperations. Unless Hindenburg figures out a way by which his troops can walk the Channel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
To be honest dude I'm not too sure how fantastic a bastion of marxism in western europe would have been either.
See the edit.

Last edited by Marilyn Manson; 3 Jul 2006 at 11:45.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 11:58   #23
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Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
I don't see how, internationally at least, could have diverged greatly from that which we know historically. Of course certain domestic trends are likely going to be a lot different but I think the general world economic position is going to be fairly similar.
Well for the Allies to lose the war the USA is either going to remain isolationist or be defeated itself. Both would herald pretty significant economic differences from our situation.

Quote:
Perhaps, but I don't see how you can say that the national trauma, the rectification of which was the raison d'etre of Fascism, could realistically be replicated in Britain, even a defeated one. Britain just didn't have enough to lose, politically speaking, from the war.
That depends on how far germany wanted to pursue the war.
Quote:
I don't see how Germany could have demanded reperations. Unless Hindenburg figures out a way by which his troops can walk the Channel.
Germany wins war. Germany has italian, french and german navies plus is able to outbuild britain. Realistically I imagine after the defeat of france britain would have sued for peace and germany, short-term at least, would have accepted it. That said they could have been roared on by a tidal wave of nationalistic fervour. That's sort of dancing on the head of a pin though as we're talking "realistically" of events which didn't happen.

Quote:
See the edit.
Sometimes it's better to see your enemies exhaust themselves in defeating each other, rather than see them focus solely on you. Like in Red Alert with the soviet union conquering the world am i rite?
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 13:18   #24
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Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
What? Are you quite serious?
No - that's why I said "o wait no it didnt"
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 13:55   #25
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Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
No - that's why I said "o wait no it didnt"
No I meant are you serious with the "o wait no it didn't". As the only treaty Britain was involved in afterwards that meant it went to war was the treaty with poland in the late 30s. So unless you mean that it was a "bad idea" that Britain went to war to stop Adolf Hitler your entire, sarcastic, point is complete horseshit.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 14:40   #26
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Re: World War I

The main problem I see with Germany winning WWI is what would happen to the Franco - German tensions that had been ongoing since German unification. I don't think Germany would have felt particularly merciful in their victory and so would probably have done what we did to Germany. Taking French territory, demanding reparations, etc... Somewhere down the line there would have been some sort of attempted retribution by the French. So the big problem of WWI (the fact that it caused WWII) would still be there. We probably wouldn't have had the Holocaust but other than that I think WWII would still have been pretty bloody.

Another problem with Germany winning WWI is that it wouldn't have been great for democracy. There would have been no Weimar Republic, the Ottoman Empire would have still been around and the only significant democracies left would have been a defeated France, crippled by reparations, and an isolated Britain. I think British democracy would have survived but I doubt whether the French one would, seeing as revolutions were still in vogue at the time. Fascism could have spread from Spain or communism from Russia.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 14:48   #27
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Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
As the only treaty Britain was involved in afterwards that meant it went to war was the treaty with poland in the late 30s.
I'm pretty sure the original post in this thread didn't ask "has Britain received any benefits (however dubious) from WW1", but asked in general.

Ie: including all countries.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 14:56   #28
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Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
Fascism could have spread from Spain or communism from Russia.
You're putting the cart before the horse there dude. A huge reason for the success of fascism in Spain was aid from the fascist governments of Italy and Germany.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure the original post in this thread didn't ask "has Britain received any benefits (however dubious) from WW1", but asked in general.

Ie: including all countries.
Ah, I see what you meant now. That's even worse. You managed to both display a fundamental lack of understanding of politics, "making deals with other countries is bad", but also a fundamental lack of understanding of the causes of WWI, "WWI happened because some serbian dude got assassinated". Your last statement is somewhat akin to saying man landed on the moon because Neil Armstrong stepped out of Apollo 11, which, while certainly true, is rather missing the point by a distance best measured in astronomical units.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 16:16   #29
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Exclamation Re: World War I

Spain wasn't Fascist. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Franco wasn't a Fascist, and hence the Fallange were only a consituent, emasculated part of Franco's regime which he co-opted into his government to bolster it's grass roots support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
There would have been no Weimar Republic,
And what a great success that turned out to be!

Was unstable democracy neccesarily a good thing in inter-war Europe? I would argue that it wasn't. Autocracy generally had the power to see off full-blown Fascism, (Hungary for instance) whereas tottering proto-liberal states like Italy and Germany were easy prey.

Last edited by Marilyn Manson; 3 Jul 2006 at 16:25.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 16:23   #30
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Re: World War I

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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Spain wasn't Fascist. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Franco wasn't a Fascist, and hence the Fallange were only a consituent, emasculated part of Franco's regime which he co-opted into his government to bolster it's grass roots support.
In similar style to that well-known sit-com "Much Ado About Castro".
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 16:37   #31
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Re: World War I

The aftermath of WW1 created a shitload of appalling art and music (dadism/surrealism/schoenberg and his disciples/etc) and also played a key role in popularising modernism and the general dislike of good things, which is probably enough to outweigh any other possible benefits that it had.

Last edited by Nodrog; 3 Jul 2006 at 16:42.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 16:43   #32
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Exclamation Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The aftermath of WW1 created a shitload of appalling art and music (dadism/surrealism/schoenberg and his disciples/etc) and also played a key role in popularising modernism and the general rebellion against good things, which is probably enough to outweigh any other possible benefits that it had.
My spirit guide tells me that there was also a bit of human suffering as well.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 16:49   #33
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Re: World War I

human suffering dies with those who suffered, whereas I am still plagued by shitty art today.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 16:55   #34
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Exclamation Re: World War I

I must admit that Dadaism is almost biblical in it's intensity, pervasiveness, and threat to the purity of our bodily fluids.

I mean, come on. It must be covered by Newsnight Review now about once a year. Once! A year! They're ****ing demented on the stuff they are.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 17:31   #35
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Re: World War I

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Ah, I see what you meant now. That's even worse. You managed to both display a fundamental lack of understanding of politics, "making deals with other countries is bad", but also a fundamental lack of understanding of the causes of WWI, "WWI happened because some serbian dude got assassinated".
I never said that was why WW1 was caused. You're putting words in my mouth now (poorly).

I simply said that political lessons were learnt from the results and aftermath of WW1. And gave one (slightly obvious) example.

Just because I don't choose to bring politics and history into threads on GD which really are nothing to do with either (like a few posters here do), doesn't mean my grasp of both or either is laughable.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 18:19   #36
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Re: World War I

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
I never said that was why WW1 was caused. You're putting words in my mouth now (poorly).

I simply said that political lessons were learnt from the results and aftermath of WW1. And gave one (slightly obvious) example.
Wait, surely your point was that there was a good lession but it wasn't learnt? My point here is that it isn't a "good lesson" so the argument is flawed in its premise. Self-defence pacts with other countries are predominately a good thing. They serve as immediate motivators to provide aid to countries suffering invasion.

Quote:
Just because I don't choose to bring politics and history into threads on GD which really are nothing to do with either (like a few posters here do), doesn't mean my grasp of both or either is laughable.
Of course it doesn't. However you're either explaining yourself staggeringly poorly here or your grasp of politics and WWI history is lacking.

Quoting you again
Quote:
Such as making negotiations/alliances with countries that then mean we're drawn into hostilities over something which doesn't really concern us.
As this point is sarcastic the implication is that we a) made negotiations/alliances with other countries b) this was a bad thing and c) this is generally/predominately/wholly a bad thing. While point a) is true it's self-evident and irrelevant. Point b) is debatable and given the nature of expansionistic imperialism and nationalism most likely incorrect. Point c) ("the moral of the story") is flat out wrong.
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 19:18   #37
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Re: World War I

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Self-defence pacts with other countries are predominately a good thing. They serve as immediate motivators to provide aid to countries suffering invasion.
Wait a sec.

You're contradicting yourself. Earlier in this thread you mentioned that Britain hasn't made any treaties (ignoring the one in the late 1930s) that has then led to war. Implying that Britain had learnt its lesson and didnt get drawn into any more conflicts that didn't concern it, because they're generally a "bad thing".

Yet now you're saying that being drawn into conflicts that don't concern the country-in-question directly are a "good thing"? I see.




Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyBGood
As this point is sarcastic the implication is that we a) made negotiations/alliances with other countries b) this was a bad thing and c) this is generally/predominately/wholly a bad thing. While point a) is true it's self-evident and irrelevant. Point b) is debatable and given the nature of expansionistic imperialism and nationalism most likely incorrect. Point c) ("the moral of the story") is flat out wrong.
So you think that World War 1 in essence, was generally/predominately/wholly a "good thing"?

what
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 19:42   #38
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Re: World War I

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Originally Posted by Tomkat
Wait a sec.

You're contradicting yourself. Earlier in this thread you mentioned that Britain hasn't made any treaties (ignoring the one in the late 1930s) that has then led to war. Implying that Britain had learnt its lesson and didnt get drawn into any more conflicts that didn't concern it, because they're generally a "bad thing".
**** me World War One was a conflict that did concern Britain you ****ing clown. Did you not ****ing get me when I said your premise was flawed?

Quote:
So you think that World War 1 in essence, was generally/predominately/wholly a "good thing"?

what
No, I'm saying your point was gibberish. **** me can you not read? Point c) is clearly dependent on point a), it uses the ****ing word "this". What the **** did you think I was referring to, the colour of the ****ing sky?


**** me that was a lot of ****ing cursing.



PS I'm not actually angry I just like cursing sometimes
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Unread 3 Jul 2006, 21:17   #39
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Re: World War I

Calm down dear, it's just a thread on the interweb
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Unread 4 Jul 2006, 05:12   #40
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Re: World War I

The United States emerged as a military and industrial power house. No everyone must admit that this has been a tremendous benefit to ALL of mankind.
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