Beta R48

[isildurx]

Stats seem to be up on the beta server.

First thoughts:

What's up with 3 cr fleets and 2 BS fleets, seems a bit heavy leaned towards siege ships?

Terran looks really weak, I'd give at least one of the ships a T2(possibly one of the DEs?)

Is every emp ships supposed to be init 1?

[Tiamat101]

I have the same problem that i had this round, There is 2 fr fleets and only 1 De fleet. I would much rather see Xan De then a 3rd Cr fleet.

[isildurx]

Yeah, or xan fr and make either etd or zik fr into de.

[Paisley]

I did a provisional set of stats that are on the beta server

[Paisley]

Terran...
De roiding fleet that can roid

Xans
certain caths
ziks

BS roiding fleet

Certain ters
Certain Caths
xans
ziks
certain etd.

There are scope to fake de as bs on xans and ziks (certain caths)

Weak against

Fi and fr inc.
Certain bs and cr inc.

Cath...

Co fleet that can roid

De light ters
Certain caths
fi light xans
certain ziks
etd

Cr fleet that can roid

fi heavy xans
Cr light ziks
and certain etd.

Weak against bigger inc dependent on fleet composition.

Xan

Fi roiding fleet
Can roid all but depends on fleet composition.

Cr roiding fleet

Co heavy caths
ziks
certain Etds.

Zik

Fr roiding fleet (good scope to cap etd frig)

Ters
viper light caths
etd

Cr roiding fleet

Co heavy caths
certain etds

Also some scope for faking aswell

Weak v
Ter inc
xan fi
certain cath and etd inc.

Etd.

Fr roiding fleet.

Terran
Viper light caths
fi light xans
fr light zik
fr light etd inc

BS roiding fleet.

BS heavy ters
tula light caths
xans
Fr heavy etds
guardian light etds

[isildurx]

Valueheavy ziks are going to be very hard to roid. Pretty crazy that you let ziks get away with building two classes of ships while Terrans have to build 4.

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by isildurx

Valueheavy ziks are going to be very hard to roid. Pretty crazy that you let ziks get away with building two classes of ships while Terrans have to build 4.

Best i could do for the MT 3 ship spaming loving players... as i call them
(in this case 4 ship spamming)

[isildurx]

But why have zik as that race.... surely it should be the other way around with Ters building two classes and ziks four(potentially less if they steal the right ships).

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by isildurx

But why have zik as that race.... surely it should be the other way around with Ters building two classes and ziks four(potentially less if they steal the right ships).

It has a slower init i.e will need that advantage v xan fi / ter de/bs incs

[Patrikc]

Something I'd like to (be) experiment(ed) with is t2 and t3 hitting for less damage, say 50% and 25%. If I'm not mistaken, this is very easy to change and can have some interesting effects.

[isildurx]

Just saying, I think a LOT of people would go zik with these stats. We just had a round where zik was the best race, do we really need another right after.

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by isildurx

Just saying, I think a LOT of people would go zik with these stats. We just had a round where zik was the best race, do we really need another right after.

Two rounds wich zik was best no?

[isildurx]

can't remember that far back

[Blue_Esper]

ST rounds usually favour ziks anyway

[isildurx]

Not necessarily

[HaSu]

how come it's "ST" again anyways?

[eksero]

Originally Posted by HaSu

how come it's "ST" again anyways?

Since no one but Ultores knows how to defend, they need to make the stats as offensive as possible to compensate

[isildurx]

How can you not prefer ST, just spamming three ships is boring as hell*


* This being said, I basically only buildt 3 ships last rnd

[Zaejii]

Originally Posted by isildurx

How can you not prefer ST, just spamming three ships is boring as hell*


* This being said, I basically only buildt 3 ships last rnd

I only built 2 myself (Vsh/Voy) which made me really weak vs Zik Cr, Zik Fr, Xan Fr, Etd De, Etd Bs - fortunately the only abundant one of the list being Zik Cr.

You can never hope to cover every class yourself, ST or MT. You can only hope to either a) make yourself unattractive to hit, or b) focus on covering one thing and have a galmate focus on another then cross defend and hope that your attackers don't send so many waves you can't cover it all.

This is a team game after all.

[Doffeh]

I would go zik with these. Just saying.

[RexDrax]

Just had a brief glance at the stats.....

I been asking myself for the last few rounds whats the point of having both Fr and De type ships. I think to make balancing easier we should just dump the De class completely and just have Fi/Co/Fr/Cr/Bs class ships. Seems De's dont really serve any purpose, or much of a purpose.

Other than that, Ziks do seem to have quite the advantage and with the gain they can get via salvage they will be quite popular with the current stats.

Seems all EMP have init 1 I assume that's a mistake and your working on assigning appropriate initative?

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by RexDrax

Seems all EMP have init 1 I assume that's a mistake and your working on assigning appropriate initative?

Cath emp inits aren't final and are subject to be tested

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by eksero

Since no one but Ultores knows how to defend, they need to make the stats as offensive as possible to compensate

Stats are not the be all and end all of offensive and defensive rounds. The other alliances need to change their attitudes and setup on offence and defence if they are to beat Ultores. I honestly dont think it matters what set of stats you put out their with the setups/attitudes as they currently are Ultores have already won. On to round 49!!!

[Tiamat101]

Why are we having another "ST" round back to back. Since this is going to be a Fall Round why have it back as ST. We should have a lot more active players this round, as its not a summer round.

I'm not saying that we need every ship being MT but having a majority of them spread across the classes would surely help.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...npyUi1FMl9ZaWc

Not saying that we should use them but giving them more of a reference. I know every single person on this forum will say "Anything but Tia's stats" But I dont think we need another ST round back to back especially with the ally tags being dropped 20 players.

[HaSu]

gotta agree there, MT way more fun to play.

[t3k]

MT aren't more fun, they're just easier.

[Paisley]

I like a challenge like landing de faked as bs (ter) or frig faked as cr (zik)

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...npyUi1FMl9ZaWc

3 ship spam rounds imo make good BCing rounds but poor single player rounds due to lolwaving to land attacks (overall)

[isildurx]

ST rounds are always more enjoyable

[MiX]

Originally Posted by isildurx

ST rounds are always more enjoyable

Yup, I enjoy st more as well. Tho the stats last round were kind of a mix, and I liked those stats.

One suggestion I have is that there should at least be one fr based att fleet with better init than xan fi that is not emp. I understand that xan fi should be able to roid some tgts but it doesnt seem fair that they have the eta as well as the init (and it seems also efficiency) advantage against all non emp fleets.

[Tiamat101]

Originally Posted by MiX

One suggestion I have is that there should at least be one fr based att fleet with better init than xan fi that is not emp. I understand that xan fi should be able to roid some tgts but it doesnt seem fair that they have the eta as well as the init (and it seems also efficiency) advantage against all non emp fleets.

I agree with that, There should be a fr/de non-emp option to cover fi. I still want to see another DE fleet so that way atleast its even. 2:2 FRE

[Blue_Esper]

I think we need to set some ground rules when doing stats, some constants between rounds. something that you know that doesn't change between rounds, so that endless examination of races stats isn't so much of an issue for example ive always believed that the following is true of each of the races:

Ter have high armor and high cost for ships and are usually fi/de/bs based

cat have emp and fire before everything else are co/fr/cr based

xan are cloaked and fire after emp, are cheap, and relitively weak att n def attributes are fi/fr/cr based

zik fire last(but before pods) and have high damage ship types vary

etd gets a mix of all of the above but are worse than their counterparts eg all init is +1 or damage is reduced.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Blue_Esper

I think we need to set some ground rules when doing stats, some constants between rounds. something that you know that doesn't change between rounds, so that endless examination of races stats isn't so much of an issue for example ive always believed that the following is true of each of the races:

Ter have high armor and high cost for ships and are usually fi/de/bs based

cat have emp and fire before everything else are co/fr/cr based

xan are cloaked and fire after emp, are cheap, and relitively weak att n def attributes are fi/fr/cr based

zik fire last(but before pods) and have high damage ship types vary

etd gets a mix of all of the above but are worse than their counterparts eg all init is +1 or damage is reduced.

That is how it should be, recently we have had 'statmakers' changing everything about and it just brings nothing to the game expect 1 or 2 funny breps. All these int31 steal ships and non cloaked Xan ships affected nothing overall.

As i see it if you want to make the game more even and stop the same people running away with the round then the core race and thing you need to keep as a constant is Zik.

Statmakers need to stop this stupid notion that int 20 steal makes it weak, you guys keep buffing up Zik armour and damage to compensate and you end up with a race that the best PA players can pwn with, all the time!!

It doesnt really matter how even or equal or amazing a set of stats are to be honest, people will still find the strongest setup and everyone will build it, with 5 races its a nasty cycle that wont end.

[Tiamat101]

Then making a rock-paper-scissors set of stats would be a good thing right now.

[Kaiba]

Removing ETD would make the most sense, its the race that screws up stats the most, you can invariably have 4 'equal races' but then when you setup ETD you have to start tweaking the 4 others to make sure they are a little better than ETD in their 'special' areas that then unbalances stats.

I would say having a round with no Fi/Co pods would be intresting. Maybe make Terran DE/BS, Cath FR/CR, Zik FR/BS, Xan DE/CR ans scrap ETD. Each race has 2 ST fi/co ships for defence (1 of each so they cant flak each other) if you wanted to muck about with late inting ships and ones that dont fit their races special ability then these would be the ones to do it with not the roiding classes!

Make each race weak against one of its own roiding classes (Terran weak against DE for example) Strong against one of the 2 classes it doesnt have (Terran strong against CR for example again) and then the other 2 it its mediocre against.

Make all races have t2 fi/co in each of their roiding classes, and that they outint them (even Zik) that would setup up fi/co as a viable defence option but one that can be swamped if needed.

Hopefully that would even the battlefield slightly in defence, which isnt something we should be trying to nerf as it is the main community aspect of the game, yet still allow for an attacking round

[isildurx]

Totally disagree about "ground rules" and whatnot. To me it doesn't matter what race has what ships as long as the stats are balanced*



*Obviously ziks should have mainly killships, cath mainly emp and xan mainly be cloaked.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by isildurx

*Obviously ziks should have mainly killships,

You mean steal yeah???

And no i disagree with that, ground rules are key to how each race plays, Xan need to be weak to counter its cloaking 'skill', Cat needs to have better armour because it doesnt kill anything, Terran needs to be toughened overall because it has no actual 'skill' but most importantly Ziks need to be kept weaker... stealing at int20 is not a disadvantage, especially when you gain back a percent of your ships used when on defence... we need to drum that into the heads of these statmakers otherwise we will forever see Zik latestarters and the late round dominated by Zik planets getting donations...

[isildurx]

yeah I mean steal :\

Uhh, there have been plenty of rounds where zik has been next to impossible to play. But yeah, zik is probably the toughest race to balance, and this set of stats does a particularily bad job of balancing them.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by isildurx

yeah I mean steal :\

Uhh, there have been plenty of rounds where zik has been next to impossible to play. But yeah, zik is probably the toughest race to balance, and this set of stats does a particularily bad job of balancing them.

This is why i think ETD is the issue. Because you have to tweak every race to make it playable but not amazing, that leads to Zik getting buffed to compensate more than other races.

I know stat making is reasonably hard and you will never please everyone, but for the good of the game Zik should be the race that has the most attention paid to it, to make sure a) it cant be played well by n00bs and b) it isnt overly powerful to the extent that it can be abused late round.

Maybe making it so its stealing capicity/salvaging potential doesnt mean huge gains can be made on defence would solve this (capping salvage gains to 10% of total salvage??), also making it so it needs a teamate to steal for gains would help.

[Blue_Esper]

there is nothing wrong with ETD, the ETD race should be tailored to people who want to be solo'ist and play without an alliances, one that is good in a gal but would be crap for an alliance

PS. how does one become a stat maker?

[Paisley]

If the zik armour needs to be tweaked / toned down ... not a problem afterall the stats on beta are provisional ones.

tweak..

Marauder Cruiser De - - Steal 20 1 40 41 89 300 300 330 430 440 Zik
Pirate Cruiser Cr Bs - Steal 20 1 42 43 90 320 320 350 424 434 Zik
Ironclad Cruiser Ro - - Pod 30 1 40 40 88 310 310 325 423 423 Zik

Armour was previously in ~ 500 A/C range
Marauder / pirate damage was prevously in the ~480 D/C range

I would like to point out that zik do have a Xan fi / ter de / bs weakness by design and would need a custom order farming to counter this weakness. (Have to trust that the Multihunters come through on this)

I'm following below...

<Rein|work> anyone that is pro defensive stats should be ignored
<Rein|work> anyone that talks about free fire def ships should be ignored
<Rein|work> anyone that wants teamups to be required should be ignored

[baggy]

Originally Posted by Paisley

I'm following below...

<Rein|work> anyone that is pro defensive stats should be ignored
<Rein|work> anyone that talks about free fire def ships should be ignored
<Rein|work> anyone that wants teamups to be required should be ignored

lol - good

as an ammendment I want stats that require enormous teamups (that happen anyway irregardless of stats) etc etc

do think these look good but an etd frig fleet thats entirely emp?

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Blue_Esper

there is nothing wrong with ETD, the ETD race should be tailored to people who want to be solo'ist and play without an alliances, one that is good in a gal but would be crap for an alliance

PS. how does one become a stat maker?

There is nothing wrong with the idea of ETD but their is something seriously wrong with the implementation of ETD. Look at the past rounds for this... either half the universe picks them because they are overpowered or less than 10% picks them because they are pointless. No one has found a good ETD balance yet and they have been around for what? 20 rounds? the 5th race which is made up of all the others means the other 4 have to be better than it and this screws stats. Scrap them and you lose that problem.

Just make some stats and approach Appoco on iRC, thats what i was told by Santa when i started making a stat set last round before i stopped playing.

To Paisley just keep Zik nerfed to a certain degree and put their focus on small defence steals. Make it so donating to Ziks is hard and so they are not the easy latestart option, then you should be ok.

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by baggy

do think these look good but an etd frig fleet thats entirely emp?

There is some scope for etd to steal zik fr on defence via vendors

Vendor Fighter Fr - - Steal 21 1 12 13 34 80 80 100 461 500

[Monroe]

Originally Posted by Blue_Esper

PS. how does one become a stat maker?

You talk to appocomaster and volunteer. If he thinks you can throw something decent together then away you go!

[Zaejii]

You could also approach him with a stat set that looks like you didn't throw it together in 30 minutes.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Zaejii

You could also approach him with a stat set that looks like you didn't throw it together in 30 minutes.

If thats the case how the hell did we play a round with Tias stats???

[Tiamat101]

Because i didnt throw it together in 30 min

[Kaiba]

7 is less than 30!!!

[Paisley]

Ok folks we're looking for beta testers for thursday kick off 6pm game time (7pm Uk time) but can set up start before this... 1 mins ticks.

IT is Not an excuse for a speedgame but please come along and play + give your feedback on the stats.

[guzlic]

The way i see stats atm is, you can go fr attack fleet that is hard to stopor bs attack fleet that is unstoppable. Anything else makes no sense. That means few ppl will got xan/cath.

Ter has strong bs attack but is roided by everything.

That leaves only etd/zik for picking, and of the two zik is much better defense vise, so would be my choice with current stats.

This needs a lot more work, stats are nowhere near balanced (not even gonna comment on cath init). You need to make other ship classes playable, and keep offensive nature of stats.