Say hello to FAnG`s new friend!

[Forest]

Originally Posted by Rumad

Simply while what he did was completely dispicable everyone deserves the abiliy to show they have reformed.

Did u know he pm'd me after ticks started THIS round, with vile verbal abuse that no-one should have to put up with?






Oh, and a fang HC member has resigned from fang after TP broke strict conditions of his acceptence to fang and fang refused to kick him. I dont know the details, because the command member concerned wouldnt say, but respect to him for standing up for his principles on this one.

[cypher]

Originally Posted by Rumad

yep and he paid for his misake last round.

If he cocks up again you can tell me to blow i out of my ass, but for now I think i am right.

As for KM sure he has cheated in the past, but he isn't half as bad as people think.

Cypher - you have cheated in the past, I have cheated in the past, do you think we should have had the same treatment as being banned?

Simply while what he did was completely dispicable everyone deserves the abiliy to show they have reformed.

don't compare me to killmark.

i have never had hundreds of accounts and ruined the game with em.

and for TP i don't think you should compare anyone to him either, as he hacked people and ruined their accounts/computers/god knows what else he did when he was on there.

you should start thinking be4 you defend certain people..

i guess saddam hussein and osama bin laden deserve second chances aswell?

[Forest]

Originally Posted by Rumad

ok so h knew them and may or may not have used them.

He was deleted and his round was ruined and he probably los a good deal of friends.

Tell me forest, have you ever made a mistake which didnt resul in someone being injured? Have you ever felt truely sorry enough to feel guilty, but still wanted to represent yourself at something?

I agree what happened was bad and It has t be amde sure it won't happen again, but i still hold everyone deserves a sexond chance.

He ruined my and my gals round by cheating lastr ound, not his.
He gave me a LOT of verbal abuse that was aimed at my job as a teacher (I will let u work out what it was), and i sat and watched him laughing whilst he passed out worms IN MY GAL CHANNEL TO HIS OWN GAL, and laughed about it.

No he doesnt deserve a second chance, and i think i speak for most of the community, several ppl at jolt, pateam, and netgamers, when i say he can fk off out of our community and never show his face again.

Hes not wanted.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by cypher

don't compare me to killmark.

i have never had hundreds of accounts and ruined the game with em.

and for TP i don't think you should compare anyone to him either, as he hacked people and ruined their accounts/computers/god knows what else he did when he was on there.

you should start thinking be4 you defend certain people..

i guess saddam hussein and osama bin laden deserve second chances aswell?

I am no comparing you to anyone, but this is the trap pa playrs fall into.

He cheated, but its so much worse than what I did!

In realityyou boh cheate, both efected the fabric of the game. Just one did it on a bigger scale and got caught.

I aint really defending anyone cyphie, more defending a principle which I use in real ife and n pa and that is that everyone deserves a second chance.

As for yu your still fluffable, but I just don't think your right

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Forest

He ruined my and my gals round by cheating lastr ound, not his.
He gave me a LOT of verbal abuse that was aimed at my job as a teacher (I will let u work out what it was), and i sat and watched him laughing whilst he passed out worms IN MY GAL CHANNEL TO HIS OWN GAL, and laughed about it.

No he doesnt deserve a second chance, and i think i speak for most of the community, several ppl at jolt, pateam, and netgamers, when i say he can fk off out of our community and never show his face again.

Hes not wanted.

I agree that the verbal abuse is taking things too far and if I was hc i would see limited community reasons take him in, but whether I think somene is a dork or a nice guy is irrelevant for the precident. Unfortunately you cannot make rules for one and not for someone else and even if you did ban him and shame him its easy enough to "fake" your own history.

With an online game where you have limited accountability its hard to enfrce somehing like banning him completely and n my view I would say it has to be better to know who he is what he did and where he is than allow him to pretend to be someone else hiding behind his anonimity.

For the second aprt everyone deserves a second chance if my gf ever followed the "you don't deserve a second chance" line I would be long gone. Not because she is right, but because she could justify that in her own mind. Thats the wonderful thing about perception - not everything that is said is true and often the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

[Razorback]

Rumad the slow kid shows up again.

Are you daft or dont you see the difference between cheating and hacking ?

Your pseudo new age justice sense of every poor criminal (yes thats what it is, to break into other ppls computers) is maybe highly appreciated in your retirment home for criminals and hackers in fang but pardon me other ppl dont share this thoughts and feelings.

You think TP changed fully after the huge amount of 2 month, during 1 month the game was down itself for maintance ? Man grow up. He got his "round" ruined by getting deleted deffinately doesnt cover breaking into other ppls computers, stealing their passwords and having data to whatever they have stored. In addition to their ingame passes, which only make a laughable small amount of what he did.

Once again if you cant make a differnce between that and "you had 2 planets in r4 aswell" i feel sorry for you.

P.S. usually criminals who want a 2nd chance apologize to their victims after a punishment. 2 cases completely missing in TP's case. Instead he went on with abuse of the lowest level and you exspect ppl to grant him a 2nd chance? On what base exactly.
Playing the advocate of the devil makes only sense if you have actually something worthy to say.
As a sidenote, would you bring up the same amount of acceptance if you were one of his victims last round, or a rl murder, rapist, paedo, buglar or any other form of criminal would move into the appartment next door ?
I personally think ppl are usally quick to "help" the poor criminals unless they were victims themself and/or are in a situation where they themself are confronted with them.

Everyone says a jail complex for psychologycal special cases must be build, just noone wants it build next door.

[alch]

allright , its seems you guys missed the concept. let me explain you something.
if the only crime TP would have done was to cheat, and verbaly abuse forest, and ruin his gal last round., i wouldnt make such fuzz, so what? he does deserve a second chance lot of ppl cheated in the past, from time to time, people also verbaly abuse each other, and kick each other, ban each other, there is a wonderful command that you can use /ignore. if he evade it, he can ever come back and then you can always ignore him again,
NOW, the only thing i had problem with is the fact that he HACKED and SPREAD A worm that can get all your password basically, like a keystroke system that tell you which password you typed, if you used a bank online system he would know your key for your bank account and could log and make transfer or pay bill, if you used a paypal account he could have used the money there, if you used email, the same. he had ically control over the computer like a remote control of 66 computer, if he wanted to ping to deat someone he could have done that easily.
NOW for this, i will personally wont give him a second chance. i deplore such actions and knowing the fact that a simple hack can cause you thousand of $ of loss to your house or to your business, i condamn such action wheter they are for a game (how stupid it is), by accessing other computer against the law, he broke several chapter in the law, including the one about the online privacy.
Now in your real life a guy who would have robbed a bank would be put in prison for an amount of time, then maybe deserve a second chance, if TP would have given an amout of time (ban) to prove the community what he did was wrong, then i would maybe have given him a second chance, but not only that, he continue some of his action, such as verbal action while he should be under heavy probation, until he will pay for his crime he done, i wont allow him a 2nd chance from my view, justice has to be done, and dont try to minimalize what he has done, he didnt cheat (cheating is bad but lets face it lot of people are tempted to do it.) he did something criminal, i dont know yet why no one had filed a complaint against him.
Anyway about the fang community, all this is under process, i asked many people in the senate (few even listened to me) and this is under a new investigation, while i know that something will be done, this is a very fragile case, as its need the senate to enforce a command and bypass the FAnG PA leader.
And this is not done everyday, sometime in real life some law that the community has made to save and preserve the democracy are used several time against the democracy and slower some thing that need to be done, this is to ensure 100% that the democracy wont fall and that the people will be respected within the range of the law, same in here, actions will be taken and that will take some time. be patient. i told you once, TP will pay for his crime.

[Razorback]

bte you may add to my analogy that the murderer or whatsoever criminal in the next appartment also continued to threaten ppl and only got off the punishment with a blue eye. Would all this give you a feeling for security or generate trust ? I dont think apart from anything that this is the best advertising for pa community "the place where you can meet hackers and get your data stolen".
Im sure this will pick far more new players than any ingame changes ever will...... /sarcasm

On a final note i would love to hear jolt/pa teams judgement on this, phil^ is surfing the boards regularly and i would ask why such a person as TP wasnt banned from the game ? (and stop crying "he cant be traced" we all know thats bollox and you are not as far from a huge community anymore as you were in the past, ppl like TP are quickly identified if they hide, take KM as an example for that in the past, no matter what alias he used etc)

[virogenesis]

Focht the problem is TP could come back as someone else all he needs is a valid address & half the time pa doesn't check as for banning him from netgamers would be hard if he hasn't got a static ip as he could just reconnect & to tell the truth I'm sure he could just buy a shell & run irc on that or even just use cgi-irc.

May I just add to what alch has said already not only did TP give himself access to the infected computers but he gave other script kiddies access as they just need to port scan.
Another thing what about leeboy & the others on that private server they had running did anything happen about them as I know leeboy said he wasn't guilty aswell but as a irc op he was most prolly aware & his lack of getting rid of tp makes me think he was involved aswell.
who knows

[Mistwraith]

I've concidered post on this thread several times and not done so..

My opinions on what TP did contain so many rude words i'd be banned from the forum.. but i think u get the drift ..

As for Fang taking him in.. well.. i can only assume its their new pa policy of this round to : Create new enemies and alienate almost the entire player base !

tho they do seem to have done something that only happened when pa was closed.. created a mood of almost total agreement accross the whole pa front.... as much as u are agueing the semantics on this subject, most of you seem to want TP hanged at dawn for his actions.

Will he do it again ?.. he will because.. lets face it.. if you do something and get away with it, your not exactly going to be put off doing it again are you !

When he does.. we can all sing a chorus of "I told u so!" to Fang HC, we all have to learn by our mistakes.. but tbh.. this one had mistake written all over it with big red letters and they choose not to read it.

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by Rumad

He was deleted and his round was ruined and he probably los a good deal of friends.

He deleted himself, he was not deleted by PATeam.

Originally Posted by Rumad

Tell me forest, have you ever made a mistake which didnt resul in someone being injured? Have you ever felt truely sorry enough to feel guilty, but still wanted to represent yourself at something?
...
I aint really defending anyone cyphie, more defending a principle which I use in real ife and n pa and that is that everyone deserves a second chance.
...
For the second aprt everyone deserves a second chance if my gf ever followed the "you don't deserve a second chance" line I would be long gone. Not because she is right, but because she could justify that in her own mind. Thats the wonderful thing about perception - not everything that is said is true and often the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

What sort of delusion do you suffer from that causes you to believe that anyone, but specifically the people who read these boards, have any interest in your profound real life "wisdom?"

You also seem to have this need to impress upon us the fact that you have a girlfriend at every opportunity. We are delighted for you of course. You are truly a unique and beautiful snowflake. However, the fact that you have found someone to share your ignorance has no bearing on what TehPropheT did or did not do. In much the same way the fact that you are capable of having sex (apparently) has little bearing on whether alliances ingame are blocking [see What if........... thread.]

In summary, if you feel the need to share the intimate details of your life on these boards, don't. If you absolutely have to to anyway, LEARN TO SPELL. Should this prove too much of a challenge, enter the difficult words in Google and it will suggest the correct spelling for you.

Originally Posted by Rumad

I agree what happened was bad and It has t be amde sure it won't happen again, but i still hold everyone deserves a sexond chance.

Proof that corporal punishment in schools was prematurely abolished?

[xtothez]

Achilles wins at the internet.

[alch]

Anyway, i think We should ask TP to write an apology for the community as at least he owe this to all the players he abused in the past, and i am not kidding, i am totally serious.
i myself dont care about apology, and othe thing i will be calm when he will be out of the community i like, but i know that other innocent player who have been infected directly by his worms suffered from stress of changing all their password and living in the fear that he might have stolen important and personal data (im sure there is some compromising private data on every computer or in your email).
it might maybe help him to get off his back some future court case, if they would decide to sue him.

[Razorback]

alch what does an apology bring which is asked for and not offered from himself ?

"sorry, i want to apologize" is easily written especially for someone who has not much credibility at all.

[Phil^]

writing an apology sincerely is one thing. the community accepting it is another

[alch]

im just giving him a hint of what should be done to get back his credibility if its possible.

[Fyodor]

Thing is he still utterly denies he did anything wrong. He says some mystery person would wait till he went /nick tehprophet|zzzz and log into his account, night after night, day after day, to spread the mischief. So what it comes down to, is that tp is not responsible for any of the things hes been accused of nor is he responsible for his behaviour after the fact.

[Razorback]

and the person mysterically also logged into his galchannel and produced the "funny" logs there with his galm8s, deleted his own planet, used the same ip and spread the viruses via his computer on irc and insulted Forest in the galchannel and in pms while beeing in galchannel?

Sounds like he is innocent .....

Naiv anyone ?

[Phil^]

and as has been said earlier in this thread, theres no evidence he`s given to prove it, or to disproove those made against him

" i didnt do it " is all he has

[BoredOfThis]

Originally Posted by Fyodor

Thing is he still utterly denies he did anything wrong. He says some mystery person would wait till he went /nick tehprophet|zzzz and log into his account, night after night, day after day, to spread the mischief. So what it comes down to, is that tp is not responsible for any of the things hes been accused of nor is he responsible for his behaviour after the fact.

LOL, and i suppose when the moderate George Bush goes to bed someone else logs into him and turns him into a demon?

You guys are funny

(btw TP was 3 fleeting one planet, is that the kind of member you want?)

[hydridia]

tbh i think that focht wtf pwned you then

tbh you should just unplug your keyboards and do us all a favour




on a side note i once tried to cheat did the maths wrong and my second planets ships return at the same time my fleet arrived i found it kinda funny at the time

[Razorback]

this whole "lets defend TP" movement becomes more and more hillarious each day, soon we will have it that he is the victim of an unnamed hacker, his account was unrightly deleted and that he exspects pateam to apologize to him.

Some ppl need to get real and accept the facts over some barely logical and ill constructed excuses from a criminal... Use your brain and some of the things he says might be striking to you...

How could the stranger be in the galchannel at the same time as teh prophet but with only 1 nick ? How did he use the same IP and how did he use the same registered nickname , considering you would get a notice to recover the nick and could just change the password the first day one of your galm8s would tell you about your "strange" night activities....
The activities didnt last just one day, all of his galm8s can proof and support that, so why did he not contact netgamers or changed pw or announced his innocence ? Why did he not apologize and clear up the whole issue with facts, like his nickchanges in logs? How did the other person use his computer to spread viruses and how does he explain the whole galchannel and forest abuse affair ? Plus the new abuse forest got after this round started ? The other person still has his logins ?

this whole big pile of questions only make him more suspicious than any other evidence cause there are so many logical flaws in it....
So anyone who still falls for his excuses: HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA

[Morden]

Next he will say that the reason it came from his IP. Is because someone broke into his house every night. Used his computer to cause trouble, then left without him ever knowing who did it.

Trying to justify his actions or even defend them, is like trying to defend a murder who has admitted his guilt, and then as an after thought, decided he doesnt want to die.

[Phil^]

heh focht. news to me he s been saying he was unrightly deleted. and as was pointed out above somewhere. he deleted his OWN account too.

hydridia, i tend to agree with you there tho theres a lotta others who have too

[Fyodor]

Whoa whoa, im not defending him. In fact i had quit my alliance over this. Im saying he wont apoligise due to the fact that he wont admit what he did. Imo he is scum, and ill not rejoin till he is gone.

[virogenesis]

That was the day TP was discovered now TP was Mistu who played quite hardcore at times.
This is going by idimmu's timestamp who lives in the uk like TP.
Now how on earth do you explain him going to sleep. before 17:40 it is all a load of crap hes telling people about how he is innocent.

[17:40] * TehPropheT sets mode: +v idimmu

[Fyodor]

Originally Posted by BoredOfThis

LOL, and i suppose when the moderate George Bush goes to bed someone else logs into him and turns him into a demon?

You guys are funny

(btw TP was 3 fleeting one planet, is that the kind of member you want?)

think you misread me. I meant this as coming from tp's mind.

[xtothez]

<[FAnG]S^Death> thr is both evidence for and against him
<[FAnG]S^Death> the problem is the evidence which clears him is the bit that will NOT be released
<XtoTheZ> you're wasting your time trying to convine me he's innocent - I was there
<XtoTheZ> I saw him run botnets on more than one network
<XtoTheZ> I saw him read people's IM conversations and grab their email/dialup passwords
<[FAnG]S^Death> it wasnt him on his computer
<[FAnG]S^Death> if u want proof
<[FAnG]S^Death> u ask the feds for the ip logging
<[FAnG]S^Death> and all the lookups
<XtoTheZ> er
<XtoTheZ> if it was his computer, but not actually him, that wouldn't prove a thing
<XtoTheZ> as the IP would match his computers'
<[FAnG]S^Death> soz it was his nick
<[FAnG]S^Death> not him
<[FAnG]S^Death> seriously u get those logs u got proof
<XtoTheZ> well now the story has changed
<XtoTheZ> [00:27] <TehPropheT> because he had access to my bnc
<XtoTheZ> [00:27] <TehPropheT> and the log files
<XtoTheZ> [00:27] <TehPropheT> people where loggin into my p nick
<XtoTheZ> because logging into his bnc would still give the same IP
<[FAnG]S^Death> look u get tht ip loggin
<[FAnG]S^Death> thn ull c
<XtoTheZ> I'd advise you stay out of this. You obviously don't know enough about networking to understand the issues involved. By pressing this you only make yourself and fang look desperate to deny what everyone has proven and been convinced of.

[Fyodor]

Sick and TP are bros and Sick is blinded by this strange sense of duty towards his bros. They can do know wrong, no matter how blatant the evidence.

[Fyodor]

Originally Posted by xtothez

<XtoTheZ> By pressing this you only make yourself and fang look desperate to deny what everyone has proven and been convinced of.

Many in Fang feel as you do, so please dont "lump" them all together

[xtothez]

Originally Posted by Fyodor

Many in Fang feel as you do, so please dont "lump" them all together

I accept there are many decent and sane indivduals in Fang. I'm just disturbed by the fact that there are so many (command) players who aren't.

[Fyodor]

I think there are 2 sides of the Fang command. The sane and the not so sane. And most on both sides have been fang a long while so while they are all bros, even though they dont always see eye to eye. In my expeirience, the side that is in the right (honorable) about serious issues usually prevails. Unfortunately somethimes it takes longer then expected.

[Detty]

Originally Posted by xtothez

I accept there are many decent and sane indivduals in Fang. I'm just disturbed by the fact that there are so many (command) players who aren't.

Woooooooooo someone get the hand bags out there going to be a fight...
Now no spitting or pulling hair

[Hicks]

I hear they have another new friend, beginning with M.

[cypher]

dread many people in fang 3 fleet.

and tbh if there are so many people who don't want to be known with people like TP, then why do you allow him in your alliance?

i bet if 40 people strongly wanted someone out of 1up that person would be removed incely.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Razorback

Rumad the slow kid shows up again.

Are you daft or dont you see the difference between cheating and hacking ?

Your pseudo new age justice sense of every poor criminal (yes thats what it is, to break into other ppls computers) is maybe highly appreciated in your retirment home for criminals and hackers in fang but pardon me other ppl dont share this thoughts and feelings.

You think TP changed fully after the huge amount of 2 month, during 1 month the game was down itself for maintance ? Man grow up. He got his "round" ruined by getting deleted deffinately doesnt cover breaking into other ppls computers, stealing their passwords and having data to whatever they have stored. In addition to their ingame passes, which only make a laughable small amount of what he did.

Once again if you cant make a differnce between that and "you had 2 planets in r4 aswell" i feel sorry for you.

P.S. usually criminals who want a 2nd chance apologize to their victims after a punishment. 2 cases completely missing in TP's case. Instead he went on with abuse of the lowest level and you exspect ppl to grant him a 2nd chance? On what base exactly.
Playing the advocate of the devil makes only sense if you have actually something worthy to say.
As a sidenote, would you bring up the same amount of acceptance if you were one of his victims last round, or a rl murder, rapist, paedo, buglar or any other form of criminal would move into the appartment next door ?
I personally think ppl are usally quick to "help" the poor criminals unless they were victims themself and/or are in a situation where they themself are confronted with them.

Everyone says a jail complex for psychologycal special cases must be build, just noone wants it build next door.

if its a criminal act then it should be sorted by the police. You have no right to dish out your own "justice".

LB is a pretty sound guy - he makes balanced decisions. If he really thought this character posed a threat to the image of FAnG he wouldn't allow him in plain and simple.

As for name calling your a bit of a retard if you need to resort to that level.

I do have views about how people should be treated yes, I am a great believer in that you should do to others what others would do to you, the reason for that is that I have made mistakes in the past and I too if I wanted it or needed it would like a second chance, no matter what it was I did.

I like you do not knw the full set of circumstance, however I unlike you will give him the benefit of the doubt, mianly because at the end of the day this is what it is... a game.

As for apologising to his victims - yep he should be magnaminus enouh to do that - should he be guilty. I don't really know the full details of what he did so I am mainly defending a principle, partially because i think the precedent of banning someone from a gaming community for past actions for me is a no no, partially because everyone deserves a second chance imho.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Morden

Trying to justify his actions or even defend them, is like trying to defend a murder who has admitted his guilt, and then as an after thought, decided he doesnt want to die.

I have no reason to support TP, but I do think the principle is right. I stood by KM after his lapses of reason and I have supported members who have cheated and were closed in the past. Mainly because everyone needs a chance to show they can play by the letter of the rules of the game,

If you take some of the bigger players who were closed most will have had support accounts. They cheated and ruined many's game. Now if we meated out he same treatment to every cheater you would lose many players who commited lot of time and effort. Surely you would be rid of the cheats, but also probably another 10% of the community.

I won't change what I believe, because I do believe everyone deserves the right to prove they can change and play in the game, something I do in real life I transfer into the game and I see no reason why I sould bow o all the hecklers.

hi morden btw I hope you are good

[LEFF|pm]

oh lol

you guys are still here ^^


Have you still didnt get what I said?

We will look into this, and only we decide whether we kick TP or let him stay. Your penetrant nagging on the boards wont affect it in the slightest way.
If you really wanted to take influence, you could have simply directed one of us. All I got so far were stupid flames on public boards which I stopped taking serious ages ago when I actually were still playing this game.

So if you got too much time spare, just keep on flaming and whining

[alch]

you should have seen the log from the conversation i had with TP, the guy asked me to get off his back then started to insult me lightly.
was funny to see that his attitude was fitting the pattern of the guy.
Now after the talk i had with him i had yesterday i am more than sure.
Get me the proof ill get off his back.

[Razorback]

Originally Posted by Rumad

if its a criminal act then it should be sorted by the police. You have no right to dish out your own "justice".

Its about accepting such a person and putting trust in him to have changed. How do you want the community to do that if he is a wormspreader and shows no sign of apology or feeling bad ?

LB is a pretty sound guy - he makes balanced decisions. If he really thought this character posed a threat to the image of FAnG he wouldn't allow him in plain and simple.

Seeing some ppl leave fang over this and quiet some community members posting their disgust i think lb is wrong here or ?

I do have views about how people should be treated yes, I am a great believer in that you should do to others what others would do to you, the reason for that is that I have made mistakes in the past and I too if I wanted it or needed it would like a second chance, no matter what it was I did.

That makes not much sense, should we infect his comp, steal his rl data and his pws so we all feel better ? Or did you mean it in a "forgiving" way ? If so have you done any criminal activities which have been forgiven ? Since you cant compare "i walked over a red light" with "i hacked into other ppls computers" there is different levels of criminality and this level TP floats on damages PA.

I like you do not knw the full set of circumstance, however I unlike you will give him the benefit of the doubt, mianly because at the end of the day this is what it is... a game.

there is strong evidence against him, noone will ever know the full circumstances and every justice trial leaves a small % of doubt. I agree pa is a game, hacking not so this kinda breaks the barriers of what is acceptable and what not for me.

As for apologising to his victims - yep he should be magnaminus enouh to do that - should he be guilty. I don't really know the full details of what he did so I am mainly defending a principle, partially because i think the precedent of banning someone from a gaming community for past actions for me is a no no, partially because everyone deserves a second chance imho.

Thats called a principle rider, far from reality and just not using common sense. Does someone deserve a 2nd chance, the answer is "yes" if he apologizes and deserves it. Does someone randomly deserve a 2nd chance, no matter what he did, no matter how he acts (remember he abused forest this round again and was proud of what he or his other ego did last round) or how grave his crimes were? No.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Razorback

1) Its about accepting such a person and putting trust in him to have changed. How do you want the community to do that if he is a wormspreader and shows no sign of apology or feeling bad ?

2) Seeing some ppl leave fang over this and quiet some community members posting their disgust i think lb is wrong here or ?

3) That makes not much sense, should we infect his comp, steal his rl data and his pws so we all feel better ? Or did you mean it in a "forgiving" way ? If so have you done any criminal activities which have been forgiven ? Since you cant compare "i walked over a red light" with "i hacked into other ppls computers" there is different levels of criminality and this level TP floats on damages PA.

4) there is strong evidence against him, noone will ever know the full circumstances and every justice trial leaves a small % of doubt. I agree pa is a game, hacking not so this kinda breaks the barriers of what is acceptable and what not for me.

5) Thats called a principle rider, far from reality and just not using common sense. Does someone deserve a 2nd chance, the answer is "yes" if he apologizes and deserves it. Does someone randomly deserve a 2nd chance, no matter what he did, no matter how he acts (remember he abused forest this round again and was proud of what he or his other ego did last round) or how grave his crimes were? No.

1) Everyone deservs forgivness, even mass murderers usually get forgiveness from familis affected. He los his account and was shamed. Yes he did a abd thing and it may or may not be proveable, but at the end of the day n one deserves to be branded fr past digressions.

As fr aoplogy or humbling himeself, I don't really know the guy or what is and what isn't correct.

As i sad later in my post he should tr and apologise to the people he abused and roun he destroyed, but anyhing els is hearsay without any solid proof. AFAIK the origina bot netwrk and such showd he collected pw's - not actively used them and while he was wrong I also thin the way his image was destroyed and the fact he lost friends is by far enough punishmnet.

Someone who causes criminal damage to a property gets 6monts in the uk - yu want to ban somene for life. I think the punishment has t fit the crime.

He lost his account, friends, alliance and standing in the community - how far do yu think you have to go to "punish" one incident?

2) FAnG were silencing its members long before letting TP in. One of the reasons I left the community was because I was "expected" (mainly by kj) to stop posting. I think everone shoul have a say on whatever subjects you want, as long as its prtinent and I don't agree with "silencing" ppl. S if that is true then no its not right, but also it is understandable from an alliance unity pov. Why post here to have internal debates when you have your own alliance boards?

3) Why on earth should yu infect his computer??? You get stranger and stranger. Simply pu he bible says you should trea others as you woul wish them to treat you. So have you ever made mistakes? have people ever forgiven or given you another chance? Ye it is all scald and relative, but I do think that people can make mistakes through making decisions about winning as opposed to what they would do if there judgement wasn't clouded by a will to want to win.

He made a boo boo - he lost lots from it - now he is playing. Give the guy a chance if he scws up you can have fun saying how bad he i all over again, but by not giving him that chance you are just breeding feelings that shouldn't be present here. Its a game, we have n boundaries of race, ethnicity, religion or beliefs. I see no benefit to banning smeone except driving that sort of person underground t cause more problems.

4) he has been branded already - forcing someone to leave the game IS as bad as any indisgression someone could do in the game imo.

5) Yes veryone deserves a secnd chance, as i say its a principle I try and folow through my life. Naive from yur point of view. From mine its a belief that everyone can make a mistake without being bad to the core. Maybe I am unrealistic, but thats what I believe.

[lokken]

Anyone who has been proven to cheat on an organised level as opposed to just one off events can go take a walk if they want some forgiveness as far as i'm concerned.

[Game']

Rumad for once get off your high sodding horse and open your eyes, jeeeeeez.

[Razorback]

Rumad are you actually reading what other ppl write or are you over and over repeating what you believe in ?

I will write the important bits in captials so you can find them easier:

HE DID NOT LOSE HIS ACCOUNT HE DELETED IT HIMSELF, K ?

Your next part is highly amusing, noone deserves descrimination for past actions ? Thank god this world is full of these examples. In court, if you did something and you have a past track record you will get a higher punishment, Germany still pays after 60 years for the holocaust, Iraq paid for non existant weapons of massdestruction etc etc I can see where you are coming from but thats not reality but some weird utopian dream you have. I dont think Mark detraux apologizing to the parents will make them smile and tell him how good they feel and that they have the best wishes for him and his future. Neither do i think that this apology will help the town he moves too once he gets out of jail, if ever.
Your naivity may be blessed but collecting passwords and data is as much as a crime as using them. Its not a gentleman case to break in someones house if you leave the tv set behind.

The only person acting strange is you, comparing a will to win a game, something every player should have with CRIMES. Mistakes like letting a spy in, maybe accountsharing, multiing, not reporting someone 3 fleeting and other minor INGAME rulebreaks however doesnt level up with CRIMES.

Will you get that once and for all in your brain ? breaking into other ppls computer for the sole purpose of amusement and viewing their data is deffinately another thing than trying to win by logging into your m8s account. While the first damage is REAL the 2nd damage is to NET-INGAME values.

To me it seems you have no problem with ppl breaking into your computer, aslong as they apologize later to you. Sounds highly naiv. P.S. you didnt answer me yet how you would react if you were the victim and if some "redeemed" criminal would move into the appartment next door, would be interesting to hear if you setup the same standards....

The last pieces are completely bollox, the majority should feel save, why criminals shouldnt be allowed to play. As you can read above multiple times, he did not lose anything and it didnt do him any damage to infect 70 ppl with trojans.

At the end of the day its just sad that Fang or atleast some of their command stepped that low to accept such a person in their ranks. The damage they did to themself and to pa is quiet abit. Utopian ppl like yourself are the cause for many repeated crimes because everyone deserves a 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 10th chance.

Your argumentation turns him more and more from the criminal to the victim of unjust persecution, fact remains noone forced him, he didnt apologize and so far noone got anything from him but abuse. How that justifies deserving a 2nd chance im eager to hear.
A 2nd chance needs a solid base to come from, its not an automatical thing you deserve once you wrote "im sorry". It needs honesty from the criminal and last but not least its still the decision of the victims if they want to grant it. In some cases the victims refuse to grant it, which is fairly in their right aswell, There is no right or wrong in forgiving. Just the fact remains criminals who damaged the community or members of the community on purpose of gaining advantage in the game, should be banned from the game. One attempt is already enough for that because they showed unable to PLAY a game. Cause in the end it boils down to the community not wanting to play with such individuals. By letting him back in you will lose players who are his victims and who are disgusted by the fact he is allowed back in. More damage than just removing 1 criminal.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Razorback

Rumad are you actually reading what other ppl write or are you over and over repeating what you believe in ?

I will write the important bits in captials so you can find them easier:

HE DID NOT LOSE HIS ACCOUNT HE DELETED IT HIMSELF, K ?

Your next part is highly amusing, noone deserves descrimination for past actions ? Thank god this world is full of these examples. In court, if you did something and you have a past track record you will get a higher punishment, Germany still pays after 60 years for the holocaust, Iraq paid for non existant weapons of massdestruction etc etc I can see where you are coming from but thats not reality but some weird utopian dream you have. I dont think Mark detraux apologizing to the parents will make them smile and tell him how good they feel and that they have the best wishes for him and his future. Neither do i think that this apology will help the town he moves too once he gets out of jail, if ever.
Your naivity may be blessed but collecting passwords and data is as much as a crime as using them. Its not a gentleman case to break in someones house if you leave the tv set behind.

The only person acting strange is you, comparing a will to win a game, something every player should have with CRIMES. Mistakes like letting a spy in, maybe accountsharing, multiing, not reporting someone 3 fleeting and other minor INGAME rulebreaks however doesnt level up with CRIMES.

Will you get that once and for all in your brain ? breaking into other ppls computer for the sole purpose of amusement and viewing their data is deffinately another thing than trying to win by logging into your m8s account. While the first damage is REAL the 2nd damage is to NET values.

To me it seems you have no problem with ppl breaking into your computer, aslong as they apologize later to you. Sounds highly naiv. P.S. you didnt answer me yet how you would react if you were the victim and if some "redeemed" criminal would move into the appartment next door, would be interesting to hear if you setup the same standards....

The last pieces are completely bollox, the majority should feel save, why criminals shouldnt be allowed to play. As you can read above multiple times, he did not lose anything and it didnt do him any damage to infect 70 ppl with trojans.

At the end of the day its just sad that Fang or atleast some of their command stepped that low to accept such a person in their ranks. The damage they did to themself and to pa is quiet abit. Utopian ppl like yourself are the cause for many repeated crimes because everyone deserves a 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 10th chance.

Your argumentation turns him more and more from the criminal to the victim of unjust persecution, fact remains noone forced him, he didnt apologize and so far noone got anything from him but abuse. How that justifies deserving a 2nd chance im eager to hear.

I replied t your last post point by point.

He lost his account wether he deleted or the admins deleted.

I aint gonna change what I think regardless of what you believe.

I also ink cmparing smeone who meses up in a game to marc detraux is a bit stupid. The gu made a error of judgement in a "game". Nothing more nothing less.

Kev - not really on my high hrse, jus don't believe after al the witch hunts pa have ahd people still wanna g down that road. Rather sad really.

[Razorback]

erm unplug your keyboard and start thinking rumad.

he deleted his own account, this made it all good again ?

Messes up in a game ? Breaking into other ppls computer is not messing up in a game, its not "oh i lost my whole fleet" maybe you get that in your head ?

Error of judgement ? LoL ? he didnt misscalc his fleet or the arrival time, he broke into other ppls computers to harvest passwords and for his entertainment what is there an error of judgement ?
He planned and executed his crime and collected the info and might or might have not used it (noone will ever know). Even if he did not use it, you think this guy reading over your RL - WORK stuff or maybe semi secret RL-WORK data you have on your comp is just a bad judgement ? Where do you get the stuff you are smoking ?

Just to clearify that, on legal terms you can go to jail for breaking into other ppls computers and atleast you get a tracknote which will backfire on you when applying to jobs and or public positions. Thats not really a minor bad judgement in a game.

I edited that part while you posted, so i will post again:

A 2nd chance needs a solid base to come from, its not an automatical thing you deserve once you wrote "im sorry". It needs honesty from the criminal and last but not least its still the decision of the victims if they want to grant it. In some cases the victims refuse to grant it, which is fairly in their right aswell, There is no right or wrong in forgiving. Just the fact remains criminals who damaged the community or members of the community on purpose of gaining advantage in the game, should be banned from the game. One attempt is already enough for that because they showed unable to PLAY a game. Cause in the end it boils down to the community not wanting to play with such individuals. By letting him back in you will lose players who are his victims and who are disgusted by the fact he is allowed back in. More damage than just removing 1 criminal.

[Morden]

Originally Posted by Rumad

I have no reason to support TP, but I do think the principle is right. I stood by KM after his lapses of reason and I have supported members who have cheated and were closed in the past. Mainly because everyone needs a chance to show they can play by the letter of the rules of the game,

If you take some of the bigger players who were closed most will have had support accounts. They cheated and ruined many's game. Now if we meated out he same treatment to every cheater you would lose many players who commited lot of time and effort. Surely you would be rid of the cheats, but also probably another 10% of the community.

I won't change what I believe, because I do believe everyone deserves the right to prove they can change and play in the game, something I do in real life I transfer into the game and I see no reason why I sould bow o all the hecklers.

hi morden btw I hope you are good

I know what you mean, However

There is a big big difference between a cheater, and a malicious criminal who purposely infected peoples computers with numerous Illegal virii.

If TP were a simple cheater then I cant say it'd bother me a lot, most of the people who complain have cheated, and a large number of them still do. I for one dont beleive in being hypocritical about it. But I TP didnt cheat, he did far worse.

other than that, Im quite good thanks.

[Colt]

Taking in TP was the worst thing FAnG could have done this round...pity some of the command didnt see that

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Morden

I know what you mean, However

There is a big big difference between a cheater, and a malicious criminal who purposely infected peoples computers with numerous Illegal virii.

If TP were a simple cheater then I cant say it'd bother me a lot, most of the people who complain have cheated, and a large number of them still do. I for one dont beleive in being hypocritical about it. But I TP didnt cheat, he did far worse.

other than that, Im quite good thanks.

I am gald yoru ok mate.

I can see yu POV and I dn ey there is a argumnet for exclusion.

The only problem i see is hw do you "exclude" someone from an annonymous community?

I still think forgiving and monitoring is better than excluding and riving them underground.

whats the saying "better the devil you know?"

also I would still lie to think a second chance would be given. If they abuse it again you have grouds for exlusion, but I still don't se how.

[cypher]

rumad to put it quite blunt...

what would YOU do if someone came into your house and raped your gf?

beated up your family?

give a second chance. i'd sure as hell hope not, as some people DONT deserve second chances in some areas.
and second chances? you gave killmark about 5 second chances?

in holland law system they let someone out of some sort of prison a little while back, first thing he did was grab another innocent little kid, good second chance for ya there again.

get your head out of your ass and think for crying out loud. a criminal is a criminal, he IS guilty as it HAS been proven. if not you are free to prove differently.