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Unread 27 Feb 2004, 23:42   #51
Qdeathstar
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Re: Complexity

i have not said that math is complete with what we know, im saying that at some point, math is finite because otherwise, physics would not work
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Are you sh*tting me? You mean my negrep is SOO LOW my opinion is worthless?
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Unread 27 Feb 2004, 23:43   #52
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
although i do wonder how im greating a new language..aside from missing punctuation and a bit of spelling... in my opinion that doesnt count :-/
By some of the most truly appalling and obvious spelling and grammatical errors I've seen in some time. And I'm really not one who is generally bothered by such things. The sheer quantity of errors on your posts really does nothing at all for your arguments.

Are you drunk? Is english not your first language? Those are the only reasons I could imagine for your typing being so consistently poor.
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Unread 27 Feb 2004, 23:47   #53
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
And that also, has nothing at all to do with what we are talking about, especially since im Comparing to things, and your measuring the effect of something that has no effect on what your measuring. Completely differene
Doesn't make it meaningful.
Make it a comparison then. The point still stands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
Like i said, i thought it was meaning full, and judging by the number of responced, id say it was. Additionally, as ive said, im here to please me, not you.
Something being meaningful or not isn't down to majority voting duder. Furthermore, I don't know what this 'I'm hear to please me not you' business is about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
Dictionary.com is about the worste place to get a good defenition from.
I'd say that www.powergenitalia.com is the worst place to get a good definition from. Furthermore, if you doubt the definition, why not post a correction instead of questioning the source? I know that dictionary.com isn't definitive, but alas I don't have access to www.oed.com as things stand. However, it's pretty ok as a source of meanings, it just misses out some subtleties (usually).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
But we arent discussing a point in time are we? No... were not. We are discussing the complexity of Mathematics and Language.
If we don't involve time, then the question is doubly meaningless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
Mathematics has a finite amount of information
As I said before. Proof please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
As i have said before.. but you have totally ignored, selective reading i suppose
(WRT my previous response), Irony++


Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
but also there is complexity in terms of its rules because accross languages and accross times, the amount of language has and will continue to increase, and the rules for language will change (and thus add to its complexity, by adding to and modify the number of rules before the changed rules), however, the rules, and substance of mathematics is finite, and its rules will not change. 1+1 will always equall 2, 3x3 will always be nine...
1+1 doesn't always equal 2 (two other possiblities being 0 and 10, for instance), but that's an aside.

You're making the mistake of assuming that irregularity is necessarily going to lead to complexity. A rock is more random than a computer, but a computer is more complex than a rock, for instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qds
I believe your first statement has already been wronged by leshy.. and secondly... other that increasing my debating skills.. (perhaps, by teaching me to use big words and cliche' sayings which mean nothign, and attacking a sentence, instead of a whole argument. ah nevermind.. thats not good debating. So no.. sry. :-/ Havent gaind much wisdom...
You're replying to my 'The dutchies were trying to break the boards!' comment as if I meant it as FACT? You're sillier than I thought. Ditto the one about me.

Oh, and I can debate very well, thank you. You appear to be ignoring the fact that if A -> B and A is disproven, then you can't imply B any more. It's called 'destroying the argument'.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
Without questions, we wouldnt have answers. You need to ask the question before you can answer it.
I can ask 'Why don't GR and QM agree?' but I'm not going to get a nobel prize, am I. The person who resolves the problems will. If we had no answers and infinite questions, then we'd be nowhere.

Oh, and you're seeming to imply that Einstein wasn't a genius, as he only produced answers, and not a significant number of questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
Then dont go on about subjectivness/objectiveness...plz
I didn't mention subjectivity , other than that it's another property that the argument has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
The prove that mathematics has certain restrictions is physics. For physics to work, math has to remain at a constant.
Yet again, I've no idea what you're talking about. How is maths being in essence nonfluid in any way related to its complexity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
Spelling isnt a big deal, especially on forums. not that i didnt know how to spell it. There is no irony in misspelling it because Exponential is simply the english word we use to define a mathematical event. Math, in its strictest sence, deals with numbers and variables and signs.
Spelling is always a big deal. Furthermore, if you did know how to spell it, HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU TYPO 'N' as 'D'? They're on opposite sides of the keyboard. Further to the furthermore, of course we use words in english to define mathematical situations. I don't see how the fact that it's english and not part of The Great Language of Mathematics is relevent.

And for the most part, maths doesn't deal in numbers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
Its units of complexity dear.
Oh? The 'What?' by any chance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
As far as for the rest of it.. your just rehashing what you uv already said..no need to comment on that.
Can you comment on why you felt the need to name some elements? Can I do it to?

(Francium, Polonium, Ytterbium)
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Unread 27 Feb 2004, 23:49   #54
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
i have not said that math is complete with what we know, im saying that at some point, math is finite because otherwise, physics would not work
And who says all of physics is 100% totally correct for everything in the universe? I certainly doubt physicists would. Plus the sides of maths that may have yet to be discovered may have no impact on physics.
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Unread 27 Feb 2004, 23:49   #55
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
i have not said that math is complete with what we know, im saying that at some point, math is finite because otherwise, physics would not work
PROOF PLEASE
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Unread 27 Feb 2004, 23:52   #56
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebany
And who says all of physics is 100% totally correct for everything in the universe? I certainly doubt physicists would.
It's impossible to say if it's accurate or not. Go go gadget empiricism!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebany
Plus the sides of maths that may have yet to be discovered may have no impact on physics.
The Lord of Numbers moves in mysterious ways.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 00:02   #57
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
Spelling isnt a big deal, especially on forums.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete
You see the reason for grammar is to make
the points clear. It is not an arbitrary set of rules used to play
the game of "writing". It is, instead, a set of conventions
which enables the writer to communicate to the reader with some
degree of clarity. In an environment where the writer and reader
don't know each other personally, and where the visual clues of
personal communication are missing, the need for precise usage of
both words and grammar is even more important. Therefore, "does
it really matter about grammar on a message board as long as the
point made is clear" is a logical fallicy. It assumes a
contradiction; namely, that clarity can be achived without good
grammer, while the fact is that as the grammer and word usage
deteriorates the clarity does too.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 00:03   #58
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Re: Complexity

Why are so many people doing the Inspector Gadget thing recently?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
fallicy...achived...grammer
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 00:05   #59
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
Why are so many people doing the Inspector Gadget thing recently?
It's just me. A lot. :coolfused:
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 00:06   #60
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
It's just me. A lot. :coolfused:
You, Deffeh, another person not from here. At least.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 00:08   #61
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
You, Deffeh, another person not from here. At least.
I know dude.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 00:10   #62
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
...
Yes, I had noticed those myself as well. I considered editing them out, but then I thought I'd leave the original post intact as it was made. Regardless of a few minor spelling errors, the text still has a point.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 00:10   #63
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Re: Complexity

oic
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 00:13   #64
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
oic
kthxbye
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 03:14   #65
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
math is finite
Some kind of elaboration would go a long way to showing you're not just spouting crap as fact.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 12:41   #66
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Re: Complexity

Math is either finite or infinite. Nothing real is infinite. Therefore math is finite.

Though I'll go for the "what on earth are you talking about" option too.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 13:23   #67
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
Math is either finite or infinite. Nothing real is infinite. Therefore math is finite.
That's not how the word is being used, though. 'All potential mathematics is finite' is the suggestion, not 'at any point in time, everything is finite', which is something I said and was argued with/not understood.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 13:26   #68
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Re: Complexity

I know fs.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 15:06   #69
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
Nothing real is infinite
The 'real' number line, lol!

See, maths is funny!
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 16:26   #70
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Re: Complexity

Ok.

For Physics to work at all, *not assuming we know all about it, I never said we did* then the parts that make up Physics have to remain a constant and the rules cannot change from day to day. If they change, then our world, which relies greatly on physics remaining constant, would fall apart.

Now. Assuming you got past the first bit...

Physics is a science and Mathematics is a science. Physics relies very heavily on mathematics as a result of the various formulas that make up Physics. Most everything in physics now has a formula to back it up. In addition, the rest such as dark-energy, well, we are working the formulas as we speak. It was actually a formula that suggested the need for dark-matter, and by god, we found it. Besides all that, let us just say for now, that Physics relies heavily on math.

Now, for physics to be working the way it does, that requires that the things that make it remain constant, without adding new rules. Therefore, we can make the assumption (uh oh, omg... shut the f@!# up, it is a great assumption) that math, which 99% if physics, must remain constant, without change in its rules.

Because math cannot change because of the effect it will have on physics, therefore, it is finite.

In addition, if you say we cannot make a claim based on its "effect", well let me say that that is the ONLY way we find planets outside our solar system.

And in addition, MrL, I know math is for the most part not made of numbers, that’s why I added on to the list Variables (x,y) and symbols (Sin, =, S) See reading the whole thing does help, really.

Now

Quote:
By some of the most truly appalling and obvious spelling and grammatical errors I've seen in some time. And I'm really not one who is generally bothered by such things. The sheer quantity of errors on your posts really does nothing at all for your arguments.
No, defense for that... my mistake.

Greate <--- :-( (sp mistake for create)

However, I can show you examples were my writing is eloquent...

Quote:
Oh, and I can debate very well, thank you. You appear to be ignoring the fact that if A -> B and A is disproven, then you can't imply B any more. It's called 'destroying the argument'.
In your case, what are A and B? I do not thing you have shown that. Prove that math is infinite, and if you cannot, say you do not know, and that math may indeed be finite. That is good enough for me, although I have theorized quite decently why it must be constant.

Quote:
I can ask 'Why don't GR and QM agree?' but I'm not going to get a nobel prize, am I. The person who resolves the problems will. If we had no answers and infinite questions, then we'd be nowhere.

Oh, and you're seeming to imply that Einstein wasn't a genius, as he only produced answers, and not a significant number of questions.
Yes, but someone came up with that question a long time before you. Therefore, the first person who comes up with the question gets the credit, just like the first person who comes up with the answer gets the credit. *with the assumption that they are right.

In addition, answers always lead to more questions. How, Why, What and When. For example when we first found out that eventually a asteroid will hit earth, the next questions were How will it impact earth, Why do we know that it will hit earth, What will the effects be, and when will it happen?

I really do not know where you that I am implying that Einstein was not a genius. He didn’t only produce answers. As many of his answers are theories, not laws, the questions we have now are how to prove them 100%. No ones going to sit here and say that what he said was 100% right. However, that doesn’t mean he isn’t a genius. Moreover, before he answered those questions some one had to ponder them first.

Quote:
How is math’s being in essence nonfluid in any way related to its complexity?
Because, that means it cant change and that its complexity can’t change. Its complexity remains constant. However, Language, because it changes, makes it more complex. Now let me talk about that for just a minute, because I know you are confused about how, just because something changes, does that mean that it is more complex. The answer in most cases is no.

Language however is a special case. In this case, because it is important to understand historic language (such as hieroglyphics, linear A, or Latin) as well as to understand current languages (such as English (and its sub-dialects), Chinese, French, Italian, Spanish (and its sub-dialects), French, and all those weird click type languages in Africa), language as it grows becomes more complex. In addition, language is not confined simply to writing or speaking. Body and Sign language also add to its complexity. In addition to this, we must accept that we may not be the only world with language, adding to the complexity of language.

Lets let there be Units of Complexity (mathematics allows for this in case you’re saying we can Let there be units of complexity, we can, it’s just a variable.

Because I have already established that math is nonfluid and that its complexity does not change, let the units of complexity for math (UCm) be 20. Next Let the unit complexity for language (UCl) be 2. Because language can change, and changes at a linear or perhaps even exponential rate, eventually UCl > UCm. Uh oh, But I’m using math to prove my point meaning that math need to be more complex. No it doesn’t. Using math is simpler that describing it in words.

And let’s examine that Rock shall we. No one can claim that that rock, by itself, is more complex that math. But as time grows, math doesn’t change, but the rock does. It might find other rocks to combine with. SO on and so on until you get a planet. A planet is probably more complex that mathematics *although I’m not going to argue that point.

I felt the need to spout out some elements because I wanted to point out that there might be intelligent life on other worlds, with there own languages, adding to the complexity of language in terms of learning it. The elements I discussed were the basic building blocks for life and the most abundant in the universe.

In addition, this time I have taken my time, so if you find errors...@#$#@!
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 16:40   #71
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Re: Complexity

OK, ignoring the parts where I was literally laughing at you for trying to tell me about empiricism...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
Because math cannot change because of the effect it will have on physics, therefore, it is finite.
THAT DOES NOT FOLLOW

The even numbers don't change. 2 is always 2. But they're still infinite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
In addition, if you say we cannot make a claim based on its "effect", well let me say that that is the ONLY way we find planets outside our solar system.
What the hell are you talking about? (Henceforth reduced to Wthayta?)

Quote:
Prove that math is infinite, and if you cannot, say you do not know, and that math may indeed be finite. That is good enough for me, although I have theorized quite decently why it must be constant.
The burden of proof lies with you I'm afraid.

Quote:
Yes, but someone came up with that question a long time before you. Therefore, the first person who comes up with the question gets the credit, just like the first person who comes up with the answer gets the credit. *with the assumption that they are right.
No, not really. Noone cares who asked the question, since it's generally to do with observing. That takes little brainpower.

Quote:
I really do not know where you that I am implying that Einstein was not a genius. He didn?t only produce answers. As many of his answers are theories, not laws, the questions we have now are how to prove them 100%. No ones going to sit here and say that what he said was 100% right. However, that doesn?t mean he isn?t a genius. Moreover, before he answered those questions some one had to ponder them first.
Please learn the scientific use of the word theory. Your lecturing me on something I was already aware of, no doubt better than you are, and then getting something so completely and utterly wrong is too much irony for me to take. I'm going to have to go and lie down.

Quote:
Because, that means it cant change and that its complexity can?t change. Its complexity remains constant. However, Language, because it changes, makes it more complex. Now let me talk about that for just a minute, because I know you are confused about how, just because something changes, does that mean that it is more complex. The answer in most cases is no.
Wthayta?

Quote:
language as it grows becomes more complex
Changes in languages don't necessarily make them more complex. For instance, the youths of today use terrible english, which is much simpler than 'proper' english. It's a change, but it's not making it more complicated.

Quote:
In addition, language is not confined simply to writing or speaking. Body and Sign language also add to its complexity.
Sign language is just another way of transmitting the language. Body language isn't a language in the context of this discussion. English, French, Latin, yes. Body langauge? No.

Quote:
In addition to this, we must accept that we may not be the only world with language, adding to the complexity of language.
More language doesn't necessarily mean more complexity, dude. It's THAT SIMPLE (boom boom)

Quote:
Lets let there be Units of Complexity (mathematics allows for this in case you?re saying we can Let there be units of complexity, we can, it?s just a variable.
Wthayta?

Quote:
Because I have already established that math is nonfluid and that its complexity does not change, let the units of complexity for math (UCm) be 20. Next Let the unit complexity for language (UCl) be 2. Because language can change, and changes at a linear or perhaps even exponential rate, eventually UCl > UCm. Uh oh, But I?m using math to prove my point meaning that math need to be more complex. No it doesn?t. Using math is simpler that describing it in words.
Wthayta?

Quote:
And let?s examine that Rock shall we. No one can claim that that rock, by itself, is more complex that math. But as time grows, math doesn?t change, but the rock does. It might find other rocks to combine with. SO on and so on until you get a planet. A planet is probably more complex that mathematics *although I?m not going to argue that point.
Wthayta?

Quote:
I felt the need to spout out some elements because I wanted to point out that there might be intelligent life on other worlds, with there own languages, adding to the complexity of language in terms of learning it. The elements I discussed were the basic building blocks for life and the most abundant in the universe.
Wthayta?
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 16:56   #72
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Re: Complexity

Read it again. THis time slowly, and then perhaps some of your wthayta's will go away.

1. You can communicate with body language makeing it part of a the language system.
2. More of something indeed, does not make it more complex. But because in this case we are talking about LANGUAGE it does. Becauase now, you need to know the "old" language, as well as the "new" language which is more.
3.

Quote:
Please learn the scientific use of the word theory. Your lecturing me on something I was already aware of, no doubt better than you are, and then getting something so completely and utterly wrong is too much irony for me to take. I'm going to have to go and lie down.
why dont you explain it to me one more time.


the definition of Scientific theory is a statement that postulates ordered relationships among natural phenomena. POSTULATES, key word there. Nuff said. I stand by what i wrote. (postulate means to assume for logical reasoning, assume is not always right, therefore we need to try to make it to scientific law..

Quote:
No, not really. Noone cares who asked the question, since it's generally to do with observing. That takes little brainpower.
oh im sorry, i was reffering to questions which were important. STFU. (as in shut the f@^# up.)
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 17:03   #73
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Re: Complexity

What the ****ing hell does 'maths is finite' mean? There are going to be an infinite number of patterns across an infinite number of ranges to be discovered. Hell, I'll make a new constant: the Pablo constant, that happens to be three-and-a-half. If you multiply any number by it, the result is three-and-a-half times bigger, I mean like woah!

Language is fairly finite; there are a finite number of rules that define a language (otherwise you wouldn't be able to define it at all, let alone learn it). These rules rarely if ever change. Maths is constantly expanding; new theorems, new constants, newly discovered relationships between theorems and values and yadda yadda yadda. As such there's a fairly strong argument that maths is inherently more complex. Even if we take your 'maths is finite' view (which doesn't actually 'mean' anything), the scale of 'information' in mathematics is many orders of magnitude greater than the scale of 'information' required to express a language as a set of rules and exceptions.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 17:22   #74
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Re: Complexity

Scientific theory is empirical fact. That's the last I'm going to say in this thread, as it's just going round in circles.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 17:28   #75
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Re: Complexity

its imperical postulation. Not fact.

Plablissimo. Im talking about rules and laws in math. There are a finite amount of rules and laws in math. Your new theory can be absorbed by a larger rule/fact.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 17:30   #76
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Re: Complexity

placebo, you are failing to recognize that in language you would need to express all the rules for every language that ever existed and ever will exist, accross all worlds, because the rules for language change, and the rules for math do not.

And As for MrL quitting, id say that means that i have siad enough that he cant b/s his way through it.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 17:30   #77
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Re: Complexity

Scientific LAW is emperical fact
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 17:33   #78
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Re: Complexity

And MrL i dont see why you are fighting this other that simply to argue with me.

your first post begins

"Language. Mathematics is based on much simpler rules, and there are no exceptions."

thanks....
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 17:38   #79
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
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Scientific LAW is emperical fact
No.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 17:41   #80
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Re: Complexity

yes, look it up.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 17:44   #81
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Re: Complexity

SCIENTIFIC THEORY - a statement that postulates ordered relationships among natural phenomena.
SCIENTIFIC LAW - A natural phenomenon that has been proven to occur invariably whenever certain conditions are met

nuff said.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 17:48   #82
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Re: Complexity

He isnt arguing over which is more complex, and hasnt been throughout this whole thing (aside from occasional very brief comments) He is mostly arguing over your assertion that maths is finite. How can you KNOW anything to do with thought is finite when we have more to think about it. Yes maths has to actually work (ie fit with physical observations - match physics) but we are still steadily incresing our ability to observe things and refining theories, and hell, on rare occasions there is new stuff coming up. We cant KNOW that we will not continue to find new theories - that cant be built into other, older, theories for as long as we keep thinking and observing. Otherwise scientists and mathematicians may as well just sit back and not bother. How can you possibly say that at some point in the future we will run out of things to research. These days we have stopped being so presumptuous to say we have 'answered' just about anything. It is accepted that we may be completely wrong in what we think, like the people who used to swear the earth was flat.

I have wondered before about why everyone uses the same numbers though. There are a range of alphabets around the world, but everywhere has the same numbers (as far as I know). Although I guess the romans didn't. (If you are counting that to understand language we need to know all about every language in the world, current or disused, then you will have to spend quite some time going round and investigating into all present and past cultures for any alternative means of counting, as surely this is just the same as knowing another languages spelling of a word. I'd guess none of these would have made it much past the 'ug, ug' equivalent level of maths, but its your principle)
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 17:55   #83
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Re: Complexity

2 or II is a symbol for the same mathematical concept.. so whether they were different = immaterial.

everyone counts the same... and i never said we will run out of things to research. I said we would run out of New Math. formulas are not New Math, just new ways to use math. math itself hasnt changed. calculus, algebra, geometry, and triganometry have been around for a long time. SInce then, nothing new has happend besides formula's. On the other hand, language has changed considerably.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 17:59   #84
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Re: Complexity

i think the main problem here is that people playing planetarion, who sit at computers for most of their life (at an office, in a box) have a hard time thinking outside of one. Thats why MrL and Leshy (although..im not sure about leshy) have been put in my box...
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 18:07   #85
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
you are failing to recognize that in language you would need to express all the rules for every language that ever existed and ever will exist, accross all worlds, because the rules for language change, and the rules for math do not.
Describe the last rule change in language you saw.

And even if you're just talking about 'the rules and laws in math', there are still rules, laws, relations that have yet to be discovered and as of yet I've not seen a convincing argument that the numbers of relations are going to be finite at all. There are a finite number of rules in language in current usage, the rules change so rarely as to be static. Even if you take into account every single language that has ever been spoken on this earth there are still a finite number of rules. I can't think of a single instance of when grammar changed recently where I had to learn a new aspect of language.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 18:09   #86
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Re: Complexity

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Sign language is just another way of transmitting the language. Body language isn't a language in the context of this discussion. English, French, Latin, yes. Body langauge? No.
Some sign languages such as ASL are considered to be independent languages in their own right, not just alternative ways of transmitting spoken language.

I'd personally consider body language to be a language. A far less expressive and creative language than English or French yes, but a language nonetheless. I'd define langauge to be any structured medium of information exchange between 2 or more people, and body language certainly meets this criteria.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 18:11   #87
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Re: Complexity

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Scientific theory is empirical fact.
Scientific theory is interpretation of empirical evidence, there's a difference and it is significant.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 18:19   #88
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Re: Complexity

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Originally Posted by pablissimo
What the ****ing hell does 'maths is finite' mean? There are going to be an infinite number of patterns across an infinite number of ranges to be discovered. Hell, I'll make a new constant: the Pablo constant, that happens to be three-and-a-half. If you multiply any number by it, the result is three-and-a-half times bigger, I mean like woah!

Language is fairly finite; there are a finite number of rules that define a language (otherwise you wouldn't be able to define it at all, let alone learn it). These rules rarely if ever change. Maths is constantly expanding; new theorems, new constants, newly discovered relationships between theorems and values and yadda yadda yadda. .
Although maths does change diachronically like language, the nature of the change is very different. Although the body of mathematical knowledge may expand, the 'center' of math is immutable, and isnt subject to change, no matter what is discoverer- noone is going to find something new that invalidates the fact that 2+2 = 4, or that the derivative of sin x is cos x. Faggots like Bertrand Russel or David Hilbert might say things like "oh no maths is in crisis the entire system has fallen apart!!!!!!!!" but this is largely hyperbole and bears no real relevance to those who arent deeply involved in metamathematics - maths isnt ever going to change or be falsified, though it may expand. Natural languages on the other hand has the capacity to change completely; there are no immutable 'central planks' which are guaranteed to stay constant under a sufficient number of iterations - the vocabulary, grammer and even the structure are all likely to be modified over time.

Saying this makes maths 'finite' is still rubbish terminology though.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 18:27   #89
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Re: Complexity

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
the vocabulary, grammer and even the structure are all likely to be modified over time.
While i can agree that the structure of a given language is subject to change over a sufficiently protracted period of time, it doesn't change significantly over the course of one's speaking it. If I can construct a grammatically-correct sentence now, 'in all likelihood' that sentence will still be grammatically correct (or if not, at least comprehensible) when I'm 90.

I'd also take issue with including vocabulary as a factor in a language's complexity. The structure and grammar of a language is applied to the vocabulary, so a change in the vocabulary doesn't alter the relative complexity of the language's structure so long as it doesn't require a new rule to accommodate it.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 18:30   #90
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Re: Complexity

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Originally Posted by Ebany
I have wondered before about why everyone uses the same numbers though. There are a range of alphabets around the world, but everywhere has the same numbers (as far as I know). Although I guess the romans didn't.
Loads of cultures used loads of different number sets, until Western cultural imperialism (lol) imposed the Arabic numerals on everyone. Even today some subcultures (linux nerds) use base 2 and 16 regularly, and its highly unlikely that a race of aliens without 10 fingers on each hand would use base 10.

The difference is that you could argue that theres a far greater degree of isomorphism between 'mathematical systems' than there is between natural langauges. Although a culture might use completely different notation and 'rules' from us, we would initially believe that they were still expressing the same propositions that we were, in the same sense that "regard!, il y a de grands poissons!" is expressing the same proposition as "Look! there is a big fish!", although the surface 'notation' is completely different. With language however, there is the possibility that something which is clearly expressable in one langauge becomes almost ineffable in another - look at the problems regarding the translation of the Dao De Jing for instance. In this case, it is pretty unlikely that the cultures are just using "different surface structures to express the same thing" - its possible that a completely different thing is being expressed in either case, especially when you take things like Sapir-Whorf into account.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 18:41   #91
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Re: Complexity

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Originally Posted by pablissimo
While i can agree that the structure of a given language is subject to change over a sufficiently protracted period of time, it doesn't change significantly over the course of one's speaking it. If I can construct a grammatically-correct sentence now, 'in all likelihood' that sentence will still be grammatically correct (or if not, at least comprehensible) when I'm 90.
I dont really see why that's relevant - the issue wasnt whether it changed beyond recognition over the course of a lifetime, but whether it changed at all. On a side note, due to the increased prevalence of international means of communication such as the internet and the rise of multiculturalism in general, I dont think its _that_ unlikely that our grammer will change significantly-but-noticabely within the next 70 years. Would eliminating gender from the language count as a significant change? Or if a 'standardised' version of English was created to aid international communication, with a lot of the current grammatical idiosyncracies 'fixed' or removed? What about if we all reverted to E-Prime?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
I'd also take issue with including vocabulary as a factor in a language's complexity. The structure and grammar of a language is applied to the vocabulary, so a change in the vocabulary doesn't alter the relative complexity of the language's structure so long as it doesn't require a new rule to accommodate it.
Id argue that the richness of vocabulary in a language such as French or English plays a large part in increasing its complexity compared to something like Esperanto or Orwell's New Speak. Having to choose between 10 or so words that have almost-identical-but-slightly-different meanings, where the choice slightly affects the meaning of the setence you use it within, adds a significant layer of complexity over a language where one word would be applicable in all related situations. Every new word introduced into the language slightly changes the meaning of existing words (assuming you dont completely reject structuralist linguistics). Introducing another symbol for addition into maths wouldnt change the meaning of "+", but introducing a new word into English that had a meaning similar to the word 'fear' would siightly affect the meaning of 'frightened'/'terrified'/'fearful'/etc. Id personally say this added significantly to the language's complexity.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 18:53   #92
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Or if a 'standardised' version of English was created to aid international communication, with a lot of the current grammatical idiosyncracies 'fixed' or removed? What about if we all reverted to E-Prime?
I can't see how you could remove gender from the language without making it more ambiguous which would seem to be an unnatural progression.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Id argue that the richness of vocabulary in a language such as French or English plays a large part in increasing its complexity compared to something like Esperanto or Orwell's New Speak. Having to choose between 10 or so words that have almost-identical-but-slightly-different meanings, where the choice slightly affects the meaning of the setence you use it within, adds a significant layer of complexity over a language where one word would be applicable in all related situations. Every new word introduced into the language slightly changes the meaning of existing words (assuming you dont completely reject structural linguistics). Introducing another symbol for addition into maths wouldnt change the meaning of "+", but introducing a new word into English that had a meaning similar to the word 'fear' would siightly affect the meaning of 'frightened'/'terrified'/'fearful'/etc. Id personally say this added significantly to the language's complexity.
Introducing a new word doesn't change the grammar though. If I come up with a new name for a shade of red, it doesn't alter the meaning of the word 'red' itself since my new name is just a subset of it. If I say
My new car is crimson
as opposed to
My new car is red
then it seems obvious that the first sentence is more specific/'exact' than the second, but it is structurally no more complex.

Though I think I'm taking 'language' too much on the grammar/structure-centric side of things than the 'medium of expression' side.

ps Where the hell does 'maths' come in the Chomsky hierarchy? Is it even expressible as a language? I've asked around at uni before but people just 'ummed' and 'ahhed'.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 19:15   #93
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Re: Complexity

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
I can't see how you could remove gender from the language without making it more ambiguous which would seem to be an unnatural progression.
Depends what you mean by ambiguous. It would be ambiguous in the sense that it didnt differentiate betwen sexes in cases where gender didnt matter, but I dont get why that adds to

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
Introducing a new word doesn't change the grammar though.
I think you are generaly right, but you could reasonably claim that (for instance) adding 'photoshop' as a verb to the language ("I photoshopped it") changed the grammer in the sense that it legitimised using computery nouns as verbs, leading to the rise of phrases like "I googled for it" and suchlike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
If I come up with a new name for a shade of red, it doesn't alter the meaning of the word 'red' .
Yes it does, because your decision to use 'red' rather than the new colour name takes on a new significance.

Lets say there were 100 different shades of red, of which 20 had specific and wellknown names. If you used the word 'red' rather than a particular shade, people would think you were talking about one of the 80 unnamed shades of red. If we were to name another 20 shades, then when you said 'red', people would assume you were talking about one of the 60 unnamed shades, not one of the 80. The meaning of the word has changed _slightly_.

This seems a bit arbitrary when used with a word like 'red', but it makes more sense in other contexts (eg if 'terrified' didnt exist then the meaning of 'I was scared' would be very different. Currently, because someone chose to used a word like 'scared' as opposed to a more 'severe' word like 'terrified', you are likely to interpret them as meaning "I was quite scared, but not that scared". If 'terrified' didnt exist, then the word 'scared' would encompass everything which now fell under the concept of being 'terrified', and your interpretation of a sentence containing it would be slightly different).

The choice of a word affects the meaning of the sentence its containied within, but so also does the choice of the words you DIDNT use. A lot of meaning is determined by what you chose not to say, as well as what you did. Increasing the vocabulary increases this range of 'anti choice'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
Though I think I'm taking 'language' too much on the grammar/structure-centric side of things than the 'medium of expression' side..
Probably. I was talking more about semantics in general rather than just structure. I think the Turing Test is a good metaphor to use when talking about language complexity, as it gives the discussion some kind of objectivity. A computer would have a FAR harder job passing a turing test in a language which had a rich vocabularly, as opposed to one which didnt permit as many degrees of expression.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pablissimo
ps Where the hell does 'maths' come in the Chomsky heirarchy? Is it even expressible as a language? I've asked around at uni before but people just 'ummed' and 'ahhed'.
I've never really read chomsky so I dont know. All of maths is reducible to arithmetic though, and you can representthe arithmetic using BNF, or by using some starting symbollic strings (axioms) along with a few symbollic transformation rules. I'm not really sure what you mean by 'expressible as a language' though.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 19:18   #94
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Re: Complexity

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
I think you are generaly right, but you could reasonably claim that (for instance) adding 'photoshop' as a verb to the language ("I photoshopped it") changed the grammer in the sense that it legitimised using computery nouns as verbs, leading to the rise of phrases like "I googled for it" and suchlike.
I hadn't considered an example like that =/
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 19:54   #95
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Re: Complexity

Vocabulary doesnt change rules. However, the rules for numbers, are the same where ever you go.

We can recognize base 2 or base 3, so thats already based in with our knowelege of math. That doest make it more complex. It can be akin to a synanim(sp), becasue it can be changed back to base 10 relatively easily. Bases dont change the numbers themselves.

Every language has different "sets" of rules that determine how to conjugate, and in what order to conjugate, and so on and so forth. Makeing it infinatly complex

Ebonics, is one way that language has changed recently

internet talk is another way language has changed.

These languages may not be more complex (in rules) that the english language, but when you add the two rules together, along with the rules of french, italian, spanish, the rules of language, of all languages adds to the complexity of language.

Remember, in this context, language isnt simply a language, but all languages.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 19:57   #96
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Re: Complexity

Would you agree that there are only a finite number of thoughts that are expressible in language?
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 20:00   #97
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Re: Complexity

i suppose there are an finite number of thoughts that are expressable in language. Eventually. But that number is so enourmous that it basicly infinity. And the way to express those thoughts is infinite.

ANd then when you combine that with the different languages you can choose to express your thought in. It reallly is infinite times 2. .
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 20:03   #98
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Re: Complexity

Delete that last sentence before Jakiri sees it.

Also wouldnt the number of possible mathematics propositions be infinite too?

We could uniquely express every English sentence (and indeed every sentence in every languate ever) as a number in mathematics, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say maths is 'finite' while language isnt.
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 20:27   #99
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Re: Complexity

no. My answer to your question had little to do with this argument

There are differnet ways to say something, just as there are different ways to say and equation

The different is that in language, they are different rules to follow when writing it across languages, while in math there is only one set of rules
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Are you sh*tting me? You mean my negrep is SOO LOW my opinion is worthless?
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Unread 28 Feb 2004, 20:39   #100
Nodrog
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Join Date: Jun 2000
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Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Nodrog has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Complexity

cxlv / vi = xxiv + i/vi

http://mathforum.org/k12/mayan.math/mayan2.html
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