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Unread 30 Mar 2016, 16:44   #51
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

I did say that I played these rounds; I know what the stats looked like (and I actually looked at them very recently for completely unrelated reasons) I simply was asking for how weapons speed and agility made a difference to things - in the context of the thread I was really asking why a statsmaker would want to include them. Frankly I dont remember combat being very different when they were in effect. This ultimately seems not surprising as the answer from both you and Mz is that it does not make much difference - presumably why it was taken out.
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Unread 30 Mar 2016, 16:49   #52
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Weaponspeed/Agility allowed for "faster" (Agility) ships like Fi to avoid a lot of damage against "slower" firing turrets, as fewer shots actually hit.

Not entirely sure it added anything other than over-complicating the stats, and making it harder to produce a decent set. I seem to remember there being some oddities that popped up with various ships due to weaponspeed/agility issues between them and ships potentially shooting at them.
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Unread 30 Mar 2016, 23:53   #53
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
I did say that I played these rounds; I know what the stats looked like (and I actually looked at them very recently for completely unrelated reasons) I simply was asking for how weapons speed and agility made a difference to things - in the context of the thread I was really asking why a statsmaker would want to include them. Frankly I dont remember combat being very different when they were in effect. This ultimately seems not surprising as the answer from both you and Mz is that it does not make much difference - presumably why it was taken out.
Sorry for trying to explain it to you then.
Atleast someone else who havnt recently been looking at those sets might find it informative
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Unread 31 Mar 2016, 05:51   #54
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
hahaha.
As i said, you were never intending to make any.
If I was never intending to make them then why as I stated did I make some
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Unread 31 Mar 2016, 19:14   #55
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Sorry for trying to explain it to you then.
Atleast someone else who havnt recently been looking at those sets might find it informative
Yes they might.
My irritation at your constant blaming and doing down of p3n in other areas of the forums is bleeding over into this one, for that I apologise. Your information was not what I asked for but was perfectly informative and included useful sources - always a plus in my book.
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Unread 31 Mar 2016, 22:33   #56
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
Yes they might.
My irritation at your constant blaming and doing down of p3n in other areas of the forums is bleeding over into this one, for that I apologise. Your information was not what I asked for but was perfectly informative and included useful sources - always a plus in my book.
BB actually makes a good point or a helpful post every now and then; the difficulty lies in identifying it!

I'll reformat my set to be more alike what people want, but I won't go past submitting it. I've found Jintao's 'process' rather tedious and unproductive, sometimes with results I did not agree with.
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Unread 3 Apr 2016, 11:32   #57
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

I've looked over the different options and i think it would be best to just finish patrikc's set from last round and use it for r67

I've contacted patrikc about it. Once i talk to him about it we'll put the set up for discussion so we can find any potential issues before it's finilized.
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Unread 3 Apr 2016, 12:06   #58
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

You did not allow much time for submissions (I had not even noticed the thread before the submission date was past), and then go for a set that a large number in the community disliked so much they were willing to go for a very xp/xan heavy set instead. I hope the set has been radically overhauled.
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Unread 4 Apr 2016, 01:52   #59
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

I know there are multiple people out there who has a "ready for submission" set, i think the biggest issue is that Jintao ask for people to make sets in a very distinctive manner, and those sets usualy gets bad critics from the playerbase.

I would suggest that we just re-run the set we have been rerunning over-and-over-and-over again, as its the only one that meet Jintaos initial demands.
We know what we are getting with that set, and we should just keep running it for those rounds thats none of the sets that is offered is acceptable.
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Unread 4 Apr 2016, 06:33   #60
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
I've looked over the different options and i think it would be best to just finish patrikc's set from last round and use it for r67

I've contacted patrikc about it. Once i talk to him about it we'll put the set up for discussion so we can find any potential issues before it's finilized.
So we should expect you to 'throw' another unbalanced set together after public backlash against Patrikcs set.

De ja vu
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Unread 4 Apr 2016, 07:34   #61
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

As I've said before I can make a set very similar to the one I submitted except without Fr/De targeting each other, making it much less defensive.
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Unread 4 Apr 2016, 07:54   #62
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
As I've said before I can make a set very similar to the one I submitted except without Fr/De targeting each other, making it much less defensive.
There is nothing wrong with the original set, what is wrong is the process of picking them and the strength of will of those in charge
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Unread 4 Apr 2016, 09:24   #63
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

ive been quite disappointed with the stat proposals ... no other takers?
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Unread 4 Apr 2016, 22:02   #64
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
As I've said before I can make a set very similar to the one I submitted except without Fr/De targeting each other, making it much less defensive.
Please do that and lets see what it looks like pre jintao input.


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Unread 5 Apr 2016, 06:57   #65
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Tbh since the main objection to your stats Pat was that it was too fortable at the cost of allies who dont pl def all you need to do is make some ally def ships better at the same time as reducing the gal def ships. I don't think there was anyone saying the set was totally unbalanced.

p.s. are they up anywhere atm?
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Unread 5 Apr 2016, 17:06   #66
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

They are up at beta.

In my opinion, higher class ships should be better than same ETA ships, and there were plenty of alliance options. Only Etd doesn't have alliance ETA anti-Fi.
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Unread 5 Apr 2016, 18:01   #67
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Thanks. Do we get a chance to discuss them this time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Only Etd doesn't have alliance ETA anti-Fi.
You sure? Looks like Terran does not either; their only anti fi is the War Frigate.
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Unread 5 Apr 2016, 21:22   #68
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Ah indeed, a few weeks of playing have faded away the details in my mind, I guess.
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Unread 6 Apr 2016, 01:08   #69
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Just looking at it.
No race has maximum 8 "combat ships"?
Have jintao told you to redo it?
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Unread 6 Apr 2016, 05:17   #70
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

No, he has not, and I would not redo them for that reason.
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Unread 6 Apr 2016, 16:20   #71
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

i would change cutlass to kill and cutter to steal.
at minute i think zik kill too many ship classes, doing this swap would also let them steal fi, and zik should steal all classes they can build
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Unread 6 Apr 2016, 17:59   #72
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

They can already steal Fi?..

Doing this also removes Frig's ability to attack anything, sorry but that's a terrible change.
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Unread 7 Apr 2016, 14:32   #73
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

still think they kill too many ship classes. im a traditionalist, zik should kill 3 classes max ;P
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Unread 8 Apr 2016, 03:31   #74
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

can you explain your thinking behind your beta stats so I know weather to take them to the woodshed or not?
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Unread 8 Apr 2016, 07:39   #75
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
can you explain your thinking behind your beta stats so I know weather to take them to the woodshed or not?
You keep saying this every round, but nothing comes from it

Lets just say that zik/etd aint suppose to steal into any "interesting fleet compositions".
Cov-opping CO pods with cat also looks doable how ever.

They are basicly a ST set, and very "boring looking" to me personaly.

WIth offensive sets i usualy start look at Xan, as in most sets where defence might be less worthwhile people just tend to lean towards attacking.

While ETD FI can be stopped "easily" at allie eta, XAN CO "can't".
Xan CO just seems to be way stronger than Etd FI?

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=t8cx73a5nodn6od

By no means, they cannot free land "everything".

------

For me zik/cat FR is a no-go.
They are not particulary strong vs its "counterpart" FR. It also leaves a big hole vs BS as its defence synergy aint favourable.
They are the weak vs FR themself.
EMP eff is very low.

-------

Ter/cat BS is possibole, but very unfavourable from my point of view.
De seems to come out on top vs BS.
Their defence vs FR is weak.
The eff of the cat BS is disturbingly low?

-------

Zik/ETD CR could be decent, as its prolly the most unfavourable for DE to hit into.
I think DE is still a stronger option due to having cloak ability.
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Unread 9 Apr 2016, 06:22   #76
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Not a bad write up, BB.

Etd Fi, specifically the Sylph, probably needs to be stronger in order for it to do what it's supposed to: strike quick and hard vs planets that either have their Fr out or are simply weak against Fi. Increasing its damage, perhaps at the cost of 1 armour, might help with that.

Xan Co is supposed to be similar to this round's except spread over 3 ships, I think it'd be more balanced that way. It's the whole reason I went with Xan Co instead of Fi, so that it's targeted by 3 classes.

I think Fr is not as strong as De but has an easier time landing due to EMP. I disagree with you on Cat/Zik having poor synergy vs Bs, but that's because the Mantis should have higher ERes. If you go Mantis/Rogue, Mantis are very cheap making them good flak for Rogues who then fire before Ter Bs.

De was obviously the biggest concern of many. I think it's very solid on defense, and perhaps slightly too easy to attack with as it prefires everything when combined, but you really don't need much value in any class to force a recall. They are the spacebricks, hard to attack, hard to attack with. Note that efficiencies are higher than where I wanted them.

I like where Cr is, my only concern was that both Zik and Etd have 4 ship builds with Fr/Cr that could make them pretty good defensively.

Ter/Cat Bs is supposed to be more offensive - if you put most of your resources into two ST ships, the result should be that you are strong against two classes, one fleet is strong, but you are weaker against the rest. Roach should definitely be 10-20% more efficient, though.


Going over the stats, my biggest complaint is that my unique EMP interactions were removed. Beetle, Mantis and Creditor are supposed to have higher relative ERes (similar to Recluse) to compensate for firing later. Instead now they just get frozen as usual and you need like 200% value in Beetle to stop a Fi inc - noone will choose Beetle over Wasp in this scenario (aside from support planets).

EMP efficiencies do still need a closer look, though, and settle somewhere between where they are and where r66's have ended up.
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Unread 2 May 2016, 18:48   #77
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Patrikc sadly didn't have time to finish his set so i tried to finish it based on the instructions he gave me before he left on vacation.

You can find the set Here

Pat's requested changes:
Emp changed (EMP eff's have been increased & Recluse, Beetle, Mantis and Creditor have been given good EMP armor )
Make ETD fi stronger vs FR (Sylph has been made cheaper)
Make De a bit weaker (Bolt thrower & Bomber have been weakend)
Make Fr a bit stronger vs DE (Ghost has been weakend & Clipper has been made stronger )

Hopefully this solves all the concerns people have with pat's set since it's most likely going to be used for R67.

If there are any other concerns please post them up below.
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Unread 2 May 2016, 20:00   #78
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

sorry Im out of the loop.
I thought this was discussing BB's set for r67?

Are we to start discussing Pats set? I just opened these.... Etd only 1 steal ship? Zik 4 kill ships? (i look at the basics...and I like steal ships)
Nice to see only 2 pods for each race



(edit; just looked again, with these I would go zik FICO, steal to cover DE and have shittons of mixed FICO. I'd build Buccs to cover CR(and to steal into my chosen BS defence..) and build Rogues for anti BS)
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Unread 2 May 2016, 20:16   #79
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

I thought when I saw this set again after this round I would think this set looks good by comparison but I find I still utterly loath them. The cat fr hole looks so totally contrived. Two races can have concentration of force; xan and etd... But with xans it is de and co not fr and cr, which is the better choice? The emp averages seem pretty high too... Though that might be because this is really a ST set masquerading as MT, which is probably why ppl voted for the real McCoy last round. I also like some things to be traditional; Ter should be harder to emp than other races and zik should not be terrans in red!
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Unread 2 May 2016, 21:03   #80
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

SHIT just noticed that Cath FR hole. Agree with booji. Needs fix.

Need Ter to be tougher and Zik to have more steal ships and less kill ships
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Round 20 - Rank 7 - Destiny (Zik)
Round 24 - Rank 2 - Conspiracy (Xan)
Round 28 - Rank 4 - Ascendancy (Xan)
Round 66 - Rank 9 - Ultores (Etd)
Round 83 - Rank 10 - #METOO (Zik)
Round 85 - Rank 3 - QQ (Etd)
Round 89 - Rank 2 - VGN (Zik)
Round 91 - Rank 9 - VGN (Zik)
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Unread 2 May 2016, 23:21   #81
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Unless forced by alliance why build?
The phoenix; The drake is a pretty good ship, it has the initiative over some though not all fr.
The syren; if you already have drakes why invest in another anti bs ship?
The beetle; if the creditor prefires it and the wasp prefires etd fi?
The phantom; you need an anti cr ship, and your only option is the Revenant which is t1 co like the phantom
The cutlass; you could have a ship in a roiding fleet, the cutter which also fires before etd fi fires at it
The lancer & recluse; when instead you can have the guardian in a roiding fleet doing both their jobs at once

Finally; why make etd’s only steal ships really steal into fr rather than one of their two roiding fleets?
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Unread 3 May 2016, 03:10   #82
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

i would build cutlass to steal FI

i just said id play zik fico with these stats :P

agree with other ships tho. and etds steal ability sucks. they should steal fi.
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Round 17 - Rank 3 - Omen (Zik)
Round 18 - Rank 2 - eXilition (Zik)
Round 20 - Rank 7 - Destiny (Zik)
Round 24 - Rank 2 - Conspiracy (Xan)
Round 28 - Rank 4 - Ascendancy (Xan)
Round 66 - Rank 9 - Ultores (Etd)
Round 83 - Rank 10 - #METOO (Zik)
Round 85 - Rank 3 - QQ (Etd)
Round 89 - Rank 2 - VGN (Zik)
Round 91 - Rank 9 - VGN (Zik)
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Unread 3 May 2016, 07:56   #83
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

I certainly would not deny that there may be reasons why you might want to build ships that otherwise look inferior beyond ally instructions; for example there may be less ships around that target them, and they likely will have the -5% cost reduction, everyone likes a sale even if what you are buying looks like junk! And yes in ziks case you may want to steal (though into a class you can't build much of yourself and would simply be spreading out your fleet). However I am not sure they are good enough reasons to justify why there are these ships that on paper look like they have other better options. Instead the second options should be a good choice; one ship should be good for one roiding fleet and the other for the second, instead these seem to be simply making up the numbers.
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Unread 3 May 2016, 08:14   #84
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Im not sure its a good idea to suggest that the set that was unfavourable last round should be run after how disliked the set that got chosen last round seemed to be?

As i said earlier, it dosnt look like zik/etd is suppose to be able to steal into anything "interesting", and they got "normal" vs all shipclasses basicly, wich isnt a problem in itself though, but someone might dislike this perhaps?

The lack of "easy alliance options" though is for me the part id dislike the most. It kinda leaves you with two options, pick a mixed strategy over diffrent roid classes, or get support planets to abuse with the new "allie defence fleet option".
This is more a personal taste thingy, it dosnt mean a set wont play out good.
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Unread 11 May 2016, 06:09   #85
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Xan and zik both need to build only attack ships and have all classes covered with 2 full attack fleets as a result. Specially for xan that's a huge advantage I dislike.
Ter can't roid zik no matter the build. Same goes with xan trying to roid ter. ETD will have a hard time roiding zik, and only possible with cr.
I would like a set where every race can roid the other 4, not with all available podclasses. But at least with one of em.
Teamups being mandatory for single races I dislike or target restrictions like mentioned above. If I pick ter I know I will never be able to roid zik without a diffrents race support. Makes the race less appealing to me
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Unread 11 May 2016, 18:30   #86
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

And that stat posted by appoco??
Not going to be used??
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Unread 11 May 2016, 20:57   #87
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Appoco posted a set?
http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats is BB's
http://xmas.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats is Pat's
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats is m0's
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Unread 11 May 2016, 21:23   #88
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Posted in the "announcement" im pretty sure he meant.
The one u quoted?
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Unread 11 May 2016, 22:20   #89
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

In which case the answer to Joseph seems to be we don't know and are waiting for Jintao to enlighten us.
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Unread 11 May 2016, 23:07   #90
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
In which case the answer to Joseph seems to be we don't know and are waiting for Jintao to enlighten us.
Indeed, he is obviously been active reading the forums, but seems like he either hasnt decided on something or cba to answer.
Wierd behaviour
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Unread 12 May 2016, 08:48   #91
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

I spoke to, as far as i know, a "connected guy", and he said that they havnt decided on the stats yet. So it could be either one, or maybe like the last two rounds, a set nobody has even seen before.

Is there any mafioso who can tell us more?
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Unread 12 May 2016, 09:32   #92
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Apparently, from inside sources, this set could be the frontrunner for next round: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...iXk/edit#gid=0

Apart from the ship names, it looks like something new and exciting.
I think its pretty well balanced aswell in its own way
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Unread 12 May 2016, 13:56   #93
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
A few guidelines to start with:
  • Steal ships can't chain steal into a class they can't naturally steal into or steal there own class
  • 2 pod classes / race
  • Maximum 8 combat ships / race (excluding pods, sk's and resource ships)
Doesn't it break these three rules pretty gratuitously so surely it can't be in contention!
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Unread 12 May 2016, 15:37   #94
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
Doesn't it break these three rules pretty gratuitously so surely it can't be in contention!
If you make the rules, you can break the rules.
Dont kill the messenger
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Unread 12 May 2016, 15:39   #95
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

I like the 4 pod set, only the names are a little bit gay, I'ld rework them :P
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Unread 12 May 2016, 15:58   #96
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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I like the 4 pod set, only the names are a little bit gay, I'ld rework them :P
Yea, they went with names of known cheats, wierd they left out the likes of clouds, armageddon and mark
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Unread 12 May 2016, 16:14   #97
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Got to love how Ronin got his name twice in that set.
(Ronin and Ninor) Anyways, nothing but love for him.
Can't ever remember Plaguuu cheated, and probably several others on that list.
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Unread 12 May 2016, 19:58   #98
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Apparently, from inside sources, this set could be the frontrunner for next round: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...iXk/edit#gid=0

Apart from the ship names, it looks like something new and exciting.
I think its pretty well balanced aswell in its own way
The ship names should stay. The set concept seems very new and exciting indeed. I hope they are not ditched in the last minute.
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Unread 12 May 2016, 20:11   #99
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Having suggested having ter with emp and other oddities here on the forums before, and considered 'all etd' with Jintao before I have to say I am rather disappointed with this set. To me this simply makes all the races look the same; it is boring. And it is boring when it did not have to be. Having all races etd style did not mean that race characteristics had to be ditched. They still could have been distinctive even with all having all shiptypes.

On a wider issue I would be very annoyed if we once again get given a stats set without there having been any prior discussion and input into it. This set should probably be in the running for round 68, not 67. Though that is not to say that there is no time for discussion now; but the impression we have been given is that it should be decided well in advance of signups.
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Unread 12 May 2016, 21:26   #100
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Round 67 Ticks will start Friday, 27th May at 20:00 GMT and continue for 7 weeks.
Changes for this round will be announced closer to the time. Stats are available on http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats
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