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15 Aug 2003, 10:07
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#1
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Born Sinful
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Loughborough, UK
Posts: 4,059
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hah - glad to see the UK has got ONE thing right...
Glad to see self-regulation is working wonders for you lot in the US.
Generally, when we fall victim to a power cut, it doesn't take out 21 power stations in two countries and affect 50 million people.
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Worth dying for. Worth killing for. Worth going to hell for. Amen.
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15 Aug 2003, 10:12
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,290
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maybe liberalisation isnt such a good idea in some critical fields.
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im not tolerant, i just dont care.
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15 Aug 2003, 11:16
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#3
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Wearing Speedos
Posts: 1,021
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Maybe the americans will understand how Iraqi's feel with no power, after their country was bombed to pieces.
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15 Aug 2003, 12:09
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#4
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Ajaj Kapten!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Sweden
Posts: 638
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At least the americans living in the desert
__________________
Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.
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15 Aug 2003, 12:29
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: South Pacific
Posts: 4,911
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ärketrollmannen
At least the americans living in the desert
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I doubt it will affect people living in trailers.
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I think it's time we blow this scene, get everybody and the stuff together..........
ok 3..... 2..... 1.. let's jam
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15 Aug 2003, 13:18
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#6
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Ajaj Kapten!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Sweden
Posts: 638
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They are plugged in aswell ya know
__________________
Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.
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15 Aug 2003, 16:49
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#7
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Shai Halud
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sunny Leeds \o/
Posts: 2,127
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Ahhhhh ha ha haaaaaa!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3153237.stm
That's what happens when everyone thinks "well we're all putting into the pot, so I'll put less in and take the same share as everyone else, and nobody will be any the wiser".
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15 Aug 2003, 16:52
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#8
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Käptn Karacho
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,360
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it's not the h-bomb that's gonna kill us all. it's those damn air conditionings.
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at0mic.c0w - #strategy
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15 Aug 2003, 17:38
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#9
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cynic
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bishop Auckland Co. Durham
Posts: 8,809
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before the UK starts gloating, they might want to look at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3154001.stm
that!
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lazy
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16 Aug 2003, 01:33
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#10
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Shai Halud
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sunny Leeds \o/
Posts: 2,127
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Transco don't produce energy, nor do they plan how it is distributed.
So much for the "experts".
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16 Aug 2003, 03:47
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#11
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Quote:
Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
All lefty dogma aside, I think everyone agrees that energy de-regulation was one of the worlds most stupid idea's. Ask any Californian.
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Heh. Californians don't understand the meaning of "deregulation." They only deregulated wholesale electric prices while most retail prices were still regulated (they could decrease retail rates, but could not increase them). New power plant construction was heavily discouraged forcing utilities to buy power from neighboring states. They also prohibited the utilities from signing long-term contracts for power (because at the time, power prices were falling). As long as wholesale power prices fell, this worked really great. Utilities bought cheaper and cheaper power and passed the savings on to their customers. Everyone thought deregulation was working swimmingly. Other states started adopting California-style deregulation.
However, markets are cyclical. Eventually wholesale prices bottomed out and started to go up--and the hens came home to roost. California utilities had to start paying higher wholesale rates but were mostly unable to raise their retail rates. They had to try to pass on all the increased costs to the few customers whose rates weren't frozen--but they couldn't begin to cover the shortfall. The utilities, still unable to sign long-term contracts, could never "lock-in" a price and had no choice but to try to ride out the fluctuations. The utilities started hemorrhaging money and threatening to file bankruptcy. This made out-of-state suppliers understandably nervous that they weren't going to be paid so they started charging a premium to Californian utilities making things even worse.
California didn't understand how the marketplace works. You can't deregulate wholesale prices and not deregulate retail prices. Long term contracts may be bad when prices are falling, but they're good when prices are rising (and unless you have a crystal ball and can predict the future, you never know when they're going to rise). Importing energy from other states might be great for reducing pollution locally, but it puts you at the mercy of others when power is scarce.
__________________
The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
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16 Aug 2003, 03:51
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#12
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Godfather
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 5,185
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Although this goes against every fiber of my being :
WTF ?
Pussy europeans start dying when the temperature goes over 35 and go out and purchase water by the gallon. The stores clearly have no idea about capitalism and when to order things such as airconditioners and more water en masse.
Right now i dont think anyone anywhere is in any position to point and laugh. America suffers the largest blackout for ages and people pull together and power is restored.
While in Europe, the sun and heat that europeans complain they never get during the constant rain finally comes and they all end up going beserk and buy up everything they can to stay cool. Old people die and hospitals are overrun by ill people.
It gets that hot in the states every year. People deal with it. Not every house is airconditioned etc.
I am merely pointing out that right now your not exactly in the best position to point and laugh.
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Forum Administrator
Mail : [email protected] // IRC : #forums
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It's not personal, it's just business.
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16 Aug 2003, 03:56
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#13
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Quote:
Originally posted by sayonara
Transco don't produce energy, nor do they plan how it is distributed.
So much for the "experts".
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Hehe. A power company figuring prominently in the Northeast blackout is Niagara Mohawk--which is owned by National Grid Transco.
__________________
The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
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16 Aug 2003, 08:03
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,290
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maybe the results are different in new york and california, but the reasons are the same. if you completly deregulate the market, the companies will a) run their power plants as close as possible to their limits and b) reduce their investments to an absolute minimum. so now youve got too few plants and old infrastructure.
the same thing didnt happen in europe (yet) not because we dont use airconditioning, but because we (still) have some overcapacities that helps us to compensate any power shortages.
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im not tolerant, i just dont care.
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16 Aug 2003, 09:26
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#15
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cynic
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bishop Auckland Co. Durham
Posts: 8,809
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Quote:
Originally posted by sayonara
Transco don't produce energy, nor do they plan how it is distributed.
So much for the "experts".
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Quote:
originally said by some expertHe said the National Grid had admitted there would be "vulnerable weeks" in January and February, when it might not be able to guarantee electricity supplies.
The UK network is run by National Grid Transco
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so what dont you understand????
what you say? all your base are without electricity cos you pissed transco off?
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lazy
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16 Aug 2003, 16:16
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#16
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax
maybe the results are different in new york and california, but the reasons are the same. if you completly deregulate the market, the companies will a) run their power plants as close as possible to their limits and b) reduce their investments to an absolute minimum. so now youve got too few plants and old infrastructure.
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Part of the problem, as I said, is that they didn't completely deregulate the market. Companies aren't building new transmission lines (at least in the US) because it's a bureaucratic nightmare to get approval for them. The US actually has a reasonable overcapacity of power production at the moment--the problem is getting it to where it's needed.
You can't deregulate part of a market and then blame the companies for the parts you didn't deregulate (well, of course you can, but then you sound like a Californian).
__________________
The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
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16 Aug 2003, 17:02
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#17
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: hah - glad to see the UK has got ONE thing right...
People are stupid. It's like the circle of life but with less singing and me enjoying myself more.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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16 Aug 2003, 17:34
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#18
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Shai Halud
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sunny Leeds \o/
Posts: 2,127
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Quote:
Originally posted by roadrunner_0
so what dont you understand????
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Transco run the network, the hardware that is in place to deliver energy from suppliers to distributers.
They have no control over how much energy enters or leaves the network at any point (unless they decided to recall their services of course, in which case BG would sack them). And in any case, they only deal with gas in the UK.
Although now I've completely forgotten what point I was making 
Incidentally I have to wonder what George meant when he said the US needs a redundant grid. Has he devised a way to efficiently store electricity off the supply network?
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16 Aug 2003, 17:40
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#19
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Quote:
Originally posted by sayonara
Incidentally I have to wonder what George meant when he said the US needs a redundant grid. Has he devised a way to efficiently store electricity off the supply network?
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I rolled my eyes so hard at this that they fell back into my sockets and now I'm blind
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Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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16 Aug 2003, 17:42
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#20
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Shai Halud
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sunny Leeds \o/
Posts: 2,127
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
I rolled my eyes so hard at this that they fell back into my sockets and now I'm blind
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At George or me?
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16 Aug 2003, 17:44
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#21
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Quote:
Originally posted by sayonara
At George or me?
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I'm blind you idiot, I can't see this.
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Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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16 Aug 2003, 17:49
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#22
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Retired
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Back Porch Bar
Posts: 2,593
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Quote:
Originally posted by JammyJim
Although this goes against every fiber of my being :
WTF ?
Pussy europeans start dying when the temperature goes over 35 and go out and purchase water by the gallon. The stores clearly have no idea about capitalism and when to order things such as airconditioners and more water en masse.
Right now i dont think anyone anywhere is in any position to point and laugh. America suffers the largest blackout for ages and people pull together and power is restored.
While in Europe, the sun and heat that europeans complain they never get during the constant rain finally comes and they all end up going beserk and buy up everything they can to stay cool. Old people die and hospitals are overrun by ill people.
It gets that hot in the states every year. People deal with it. Not every house is airconditioned etc.
I am merely pointing out that right now your not exactly in the best position to point and laugh.
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Took the words right out of my mouth on that one JJ:eek:
__________________
I'd rather be fishing.
Utterly useless since r3
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16 Aug 2003, 17:51
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#23
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Shai Halud
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sunny Leeds \o/
Posts: 2,127
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
I'm blind you idiot, I can't see this.
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Uhhh... I have to assume you have some kind of super-clever helper monkey then.
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16 Aug 2003, 17:51
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#24
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cochese
Took the words right out of my mouth on that one JJ:eek:
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That's not all he took out of your mouth.
(I really have got to stop reading these forums).
Quote:
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Uhhh... I have to assume you have some kind of super-clever helper monkey then
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Who told you about MrL? :(
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Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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16 Aug 2003, 17:53
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#25
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Quote:
Originally posted by sayonara
Incidentally I have to wonder what George meant when he said the US needs a redundant grid. Has he devised a way to efficiently store electricity off the supply network?
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I assume he meant redundant in the sense of being more resilient. I'm sure his press secretary will explain exactly what he meant in a day or two.
__________________
The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
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16 Aug 2003, 17:55
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#26
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Shai Halud
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sunny Leeds \o/
Posts: 2,127
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Once something sensible has been agreed on...?
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16 Aug 2003, 17:55
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#27
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
I assume he meant redundant in the sense of being more resilient. I'm sure his press secretary will explain exactly what he meant in a day or two.
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Those implications sound terrorist-like. Reported forums to FBI.
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Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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16 Aug 2003, 17:58
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#28
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Ball
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,410
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Tesla has a lot to answer for.
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#linux
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16 Aug 2003, 17:58
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#29
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Shai Halud
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sunny Leeds \o/
Posts: 2,127
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In a somewhat indirect way I work for Innogy so this was extremely easy to find as i already knew about the project...
Anyway, they may be able to help out but I'm not sure this technology is at the point yet where it could step in to supply a city:
http://www.innogy.com/corporate/ourb.../regenesys.jsp
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19 Aug 2003, 19:47
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#30
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Custom User Title
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 581
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Quote:
Originally posted by queball
Tesla has a lot to answer for.
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EAT ME ARSE WIV A SPOON
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19 Aug 2003, 21:14
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#31
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,967
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Quote:
Originally posted by JammyJim
Although this goes against every fiber of my being :
WTF ?
Pussy europeans start dying when the temperature goes over 35 and go out and purchase water by the gallon.
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I am quite confused by that btw? Why is a tempature that is quite normal in the USA killing so many euros when old farts in Philly that don't have air in their row homes (means only front and back windows people sucks on a day when the air blows on the sides) and are not dying left in right.
Now this is in the north, now imagine in Flordia.
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19 Aug 2003, 21:19
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#32
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Ball
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,410
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Quote:
Originally posted by Intrepid00
I am quite confused by that btw? Why is a tempature that is quite normal in the USA killing so many euros when old farts in Philly that don't have air in their row homes (means only front and back windows people sucks on a day when the air blows on the sides) and are not dying left in right.
Now this is in the north, now imagine in Flordia.
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Like JammyJim said. Europeans are pussies who die whenever the temperature rises a few degrees.
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#linux
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19 Aug 2003, 21:32
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#33
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Quote:
Originally posted by JammyJim
While in Europe, the sun and heat that europeans complain they never get during the constant rain finally comes and they all end up going beserk and buy up everything they can to stay cool.
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Who the hell are the "Europeans", btw? Are you seriously saying the Greeks, Spanish and Italians complain they don't get enough heat? Don't abstract UK news media outpourings to represent all of Europe.
In Spain it was 114F when they mentioned it on television. I think this counts as a little over 35.
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19 Aug 2003, 22:23
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#34
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Banned
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Swansea
Posts: 148
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It isnt the fact its deregulated, its capitiallism en masse.
The problem is the resell value from one power grid to another is very expensive. So what do they do, they make it so that they dont actually take power from the grid next door on high demand.
hat happens is a power spike comes in, and causes a blackout in a particular grid, the adjerning grid gets a surge, it cant actually sell on this power, so it blacks out
this goes on to the next grid to the next grid to the next grid.
I saw a video once where you just saw the whole US eastern seaboard just domino dark.
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20 Aug 2003, 09:00
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#35
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Shai Halud
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sunny Leeds \o/
Posts: 2,127
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Quote:
Originally posted by queball
Like JammyJim said. Europeans are pussies who die whenever the temperature rises a few degrees.
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I think it might just have been the ones stuffed into tube trains with no A/C to speak of who did all the complaining, as all I heard was utter delight about the great weather.
I'd like to see Florida etc spend a summer week with no air con or handy bags of ice from the chiller cabinet.
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20 Aug 2003, 09:18
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#36
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cynic
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bishop Auckland Co. Durham
Posts: 8,809
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
Who told you about MrL?
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dont callhim a monkey, he is like the librarian from discworld, he doesnt like being called a monkey, a cute and fluffy ape however...
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lazy
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20 Aug 2003, 09:53
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#37
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Bored
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Nottm ->Shef ->Croydon ->Manc ->Durham ->Sheffield
Posts: 6,506
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We can import electricity from the continent if we need to, and I think we did earlier in the year. Also France imported our electricity for the first time ever recently.
Our national grid works completely differently to North Americas.
We have a few more back-up procedures in place, along with the best electrical engineers in the world 
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