lancer+bomber ridicule

[Leshy]

Precursors: You're missing the point that the main problem is not in the stats, but in the simple fact that the universe is almost fully comprised of Terrans and Xandrathii. Had Cathaar and Zikonians been more prevalent, this issue may have been a lot less urgent.

Roaches, for example, are hideously effective against Destroyers, and Cathaar can fairly easily stop a Xandrathii Fr/De attack on a Terran dead in it's tracks. In a one on one, Xandrathii can take Terrans much more easily than Terrans can take a Xandrathii - but the stats were never designed for such a one-on-one approach.

[Precursors]

Leshy, ofc the universe is packed with them, and it IS cos of the ship stats. Yeah roaches stop pegs and minos etc but that's a good def ship. You dont send roach+mosquito only, you need to send beetles to freeze the gryphons, scarabs to freeze hydras etc, in the end the ship cost you require to roid the enemy is higher than the enemy. You need to send many ship class to effectively roid while Xans can do it with fi only or Terran can do it with DE only fleets, while rest of the fleet can sit at home for def. As you dont kill enemy ships as Cath, they always attack you, anyone with more pegs than what your roaches can cover will attack you cos he wont get hurt. If universe was 99% cath and you were the only Terran you would still outgrow many since you wouldnt be losing ships. Also Zik&Cath ships are expensive to produce in equal amounts. Need many different class ships to freeze terrans due to their high armor, and any Xan that you cant freeze will hurt you a lot due to their high attack.
There is a reason why universe is packed with Xan/Terran and not with Zik/Cath. Some stat changes on these races will be great for next round. Bu my initial lancer+bomber ridicule post was about this round's imbalance, with the current Xan/Terran count.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Precursors

Leshy, ofc the universe is packed with them, and it IS cos of the ship stats.

That has more to do with the stats for the Zik and Cathaar races, than with those for Terran and Xandrathii.

The ship stats were designed to accomodate for a four-race universe. In a pretty much two-race universe, you're naturally going to end up with a discrepancy in power.

[Hicks]

Your still not getting it are you ? This is not a solo game, no attack on you will be able to be covered alone and no race should be able to be 100% self sufficient. That's the point of letting Lancer/Bomber combo roid Terrans, Terran shouldn't be able to stop every kind of attack on it, it needs a weakness. So long as there is a solution in the game and there is (Pulsars in defence) then it’s fine. Basically what your asking is to make a super over powered race just as the Xands were whining in the beta to make Pulsar fire before Pegs, they don't need to as that's one of their weaknesses (Countered by Phoniex in defence).

I don't see why there needs to be radical stat changes for R12, there needs to be tweaks mostly to Cath and Zik to make them more attractive (Bring back steal please !), Terran and Xan are however fine, there certainly doesn't need to be anything like changing the Phoniex or Hydra Int, this round has been the best stat wise since Round 7, Spanner needs to make sure he doesn't screw it all up like he did for Round 8. Just about everyone has disagreed with you in this thread, no one wants to make Terran a super race so you can win, it’s not going to happen, shut up ?

[Precursors]

Hicks: why do 1up geeks come here and flame every single thread? And who is Spanner? Get lost pls k thx

Leshy: We are saying the same thing, but please read the last 2 sentences of my previous post

[Hicks]

Spanner = Spinner. Possibly because most 1up have a good grasp of the stats and like shooting down your posts, are you actually going to reply to anything I've wrote or are you just going to repost "OMFG TERRAN HAS A WEAKNESS CHANGE THE STATS AND MAKE US A SUPER RACE !!!" ? Get lost from my game k thnx.

[Precursors]

Hicks: we are not discussing about making terran a super race, you are posting without reading the thread. As I said before pls pls pls get lost

[jerome]

Ignorance is bliss, they say, heh.

[Hicks]

You don't own this thread or these forums you have no business telling anyone to get lost, just because you create a thread doesn't mean you own it, get used it it’s a public forum, if I or Martok or anyone wants to say shut up we can. Now try listening very carefully this time, Lancers are the one way in which Terrans can be roided, ok ? If you nullify Lancers then Terran are unroidable without huge losses, 50% of the universe is now unroidable, this creates a super race which can only be roided with great difficulty, what aren't you understanding ? Every race has to have a weakness, that's what's good about the game, hell I may as well make a thread about why Pegs should have a higher int as frankly I'm sick of Terran incoming.

There are going to be no mid round ship stat changes nor should there be and the changes for next round shouldn't focus on making Terran invulnerable they should focus on upgrading Zik and Cath. Now I'm struggling to find a single post in this thread which hasn't told you your wrong even people who help devise the ship stats have told you that your wrong, yet you seem unable to answer any of their arguments you just keep posting time and time again how to make Terran a better race when it doesn't need to be. Your not discussing anything, your simply ignoring people when they tell you how you can stop lancers and why nothing needs to change and posting your own thing. Frankly all you idiots who didn't see the obvious weakness of Terrans and followed the advice of so called experts deserve all your getting.

[Shaithess]

Cathaars can't defend against ziks on their own... Marauders easily steal scarabs; and then there's still loads of CR to block anyway. MAKE SCARNS INI1 BECAUSE ZIKS ROID CATH AND IT'S NOT FAIR!!!1111!11one!

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Hicks

Frankly all you idiots who didn't see the obvious weakness of Terrans and followed the advice of so called experts deserve all your getting.

I didn't take any advice.

I just wanted to play with Pegs

[Precursors]

I played Xan in beta and it was fairly easy, I finished in top 25. I wanted to try Terran for a change this round and ofc you discover weaknesses as you play along
I only wish the feedbacks of players can help PA team to make adjustments for next round so we can enjoy ziks and cathaars and all the race diversity

[Blacknova]

Hyrdra at init 3 is not overpowered in the least. If you think it is please go back and read the stats more carefully for a greater understanding why.

Since I am in a generous mood today I'll give you a clue - Look at the etas and look at the Fireblade and what it's role is in the Xan fleet.

Nova

[Precursors]

thank you Blacknova =)

[Ronin]

I can say 1 thing, on paper
Cathaar is way better than Xan, you can roid planets twice your size without losses, using Viper/Hornet (maybe some roach to block off boltthrowers. but I haven't seen eta mentioned a single time here

Caths biggest problem (apart from not being able to roid Terran at all) is the ETA of the cruiser/bs, basically everyone get defence against eta 9 CR, you have 3 full hours to get the defence, compare this to a FI fleet being eta 7 where you only have less than an hour. I think all cathaars in the game can agree with me on this one.

and while we are at it, Zik blocking Cathaar with better init? can someone remind me what 11 round of Cathaar was all about? lol

[Shaithess]

and while we are at it, Zik blocking Cathaar with better init? can someone remind me what 11 round of Cathaar was all about? lol

If that was in reply to my post, it was deeply sarcastic, as how easily ziks can roid cat (they can do ziks easily too, but that wans't in my post)... Terrans can easily roid cat and ziks (though roaches are better per resource for blockign DE, you need an obscene amount of cutters to stop terran DE! I am not even 1 mil value, I have 1600 cutters and I can still be roided by 1k De with no loss to the terran :/), whereas ziks and cats find it almost impossible to roid terran. Sounds very fair? :roll:

[Precursors]

Ronin, look at the Cathaar roid/value ratios and look at the Xan roid/value ratios
Cathaars and Ziks are fav targets this round cos they don't kill ships. Any terran with more pegs than your roaches can cover will roid you dry. Same logic for Ziks

[Psi_K]

Originally Posted by Precursors

Ronin, look at the Cathaar roid/value ratios and look at the Xan roid/value ratios
Cathaars and Ziks are fav targets this round cos they don't kill ships. Any terran with more pegs than your roaches can cover will roid you dry. Same logic for Ziks

And guess what, that's why this game isn't a 'SOLO' game :eek:

[Precursors]

Psi_K, I would like my target's def to be Cath rather than Xan any day

[cypher]

Originally Posted by Shaithess

If that was in reply to my post, it was deeply sarcastic, as how easily ziks can roid cat (they can do ziks easily too, but that wans't in my post)... Terrans can easily roid cat and ziks (though roaches are better per resource for blockign DE, you need an obscene amount of cutters to stop terran DE! I am not even 1 mil value, I have 1600 cutters and I can still be roided by 1k De with no loss to the terran :/), whereas ziks and cats find it almost impossible to roid terran. Sounds very fair? :roll:

so you're basically saying that cutters which are CO class should block that many pegasus which are DE class ?

you find it strange they don't?:S heh... you're kinda weird ya know....try and get some grasp of planetarion... play it for a while... then come back to posting silly stuff. we might then think you're being sarcastic, instead of plain stupid.

[Shaithess]

Cypher: I consider myself intelligent enough to say that I have a reasonable grasp of planetarion, despite playing for just 2 and a bit rounds properly (Having organised attacks which roided 2 top 10 elysium players in PaX, and now being a DC, and *touch wood* not having done anything particularly stupid yet). Sure, I wouldn't say I'm a good player, but I can make a reasonable account of myself, I have a lot of fun, and I do have an ok grasp of planetarion tactics...

I picked Zik because I enjoy being able to 'borrow' people's ships, and it can eventually lead to cool attacks where there are interweaving 'chains' of subversions eventually leading to nice little numbers of ship kills, and where I can stop the enemy shooting with teh leet initiative... I accept that I will have problem defending against people due to my lack of killships, but I haven't come on AD to complain about it in a serious context. I don't demand changes to the stats, the only reason I mentioned cutters was as an example as to how a zik, on their own, stands almost no chance against a terran who is trying to roid them (And, in turn, finds it almost impossible to roid the terran back!)

Basically, IMO, the original poster should stop bitching ...

[jerome]

lol! Zik co flak against Dragons and Centaurs piss easily . Damnit, I wish i`dve gone Zik, so much easy roids about for anyone with a decent ability to roid looking at the stats .

[Shaithess]

ryzekiel: Sure, we rock at roiding cats and ziks (though since we generally need CRs, they get 3 full ticks to get def :/), and it's quite possible to roid xans w/ DE/CR (assuming they run) or even CO (if they have almost no vsh), it's bloody difficult to roid terrans!

Since, against most balanced terran fleets, you'll end up needing cutters/buccaneers/clippers/marauders/pirates, all of them in large numbers, and since many ziks avoid building bucs anyway (the only thing they're useful for is attacking terrans...), you CAN roid terrans, but you either suffer insane casualties, or you have to hope they have a poorly balanced fleet (ie. I roided a terran who was my size because they had no dragons, but it involved disguising co as cr in order to get through alliance def).

And then, once you have roids, it's bloody impossible to stop DE/CR fleets, so terrans/ziks/xans will be constantly attacking you. If anything gets through def then you're screwed

*This post is not meant to be a complaint, it's just merely acceptance.

[Linkie]

Originally Posted by Shaithess

ryzekiel: Since, against most balanced terran fleets, you'll end up needing cutters/buccaneers/clippers/marauders/pirates, all of them in large numbers

no you don't. You can easily flak your way through terrans with CO. If I can do it with terr-co, you can damn well do it with zik co.

[Shaithess]

Maybe it's my aversion to losing more ships than the enemy or something, but when I'd be losing 600 CO for 50 roids (not killing anything); more for more roids in general, I'd firstly, not be willing to shave 5-10% off my value for a 5% increase in roids, secondly, I'm quite roidfat as it is (Never mind if I was to lose a bunch of my anti CO/DE), and finally why bother when I can get 'free' roids from ziks or cats, and cheaper roids of active xans?

And also, ziks take slightly higher losses than terran CO as their ships have a better kill ratio (well, mainly thiefs)... You'd lose 55k value in phoenix per 100 dragons, and I'd lost 75k in thiefs per 100 dragons.

Though I have hit some terrans, a terran with a balanced fleet wtfpwns me

[jerome]

What is everyone`s freaking obsession with free roids, heh. Free roids do not come often latter stage, one must either kill his way through or flakk through with reasonable losses than you can regain with your new roids. Zikonian CO own at flakking as do terran co, look at their respective armour values, hardly the easiest of ships to kill for their class .

[Shaithess]

I do accept that I'll take losses for roids, but I don't tend to want to lose 100k net in value per 50 roids I gain

As it is, I can still get free roids at this stage in the round quite easily, just through bashing other ziks and caths

[Blacknova]

Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_

What is everyone`s freaking obsession with free roids, heh. Free roids do not come often latter stage, one must either kill his way through or flakk through with reasonable losses than you can regain with your new roids. Zikonian CO own at flakking as do terran co, look at their respective armour values, hardly the easiest of ships to kill for their class .

One *huge* difference between Terran CO and Zik CO....

Zik CO *will* fire first, and therefore reduce the number of lancers which stand in your way. Terran CO gets pwned silly because it cannot return fire until the lancers have done their damage, the Xan get the same benefit from that as they do by swarming FI against other Xan early in the round because their Anti-CO vsharrak anihilates the Anti-FI sentinel.

Zik CO does pwn as flak, albeit expensive flak, Terran CO does not (although Terran DE in sufficient numbers can ruin just about anyone's day).

Nova

[Judge]

I guess it is no accident that 1up has 80% Xan Planets?

Originally Posted by Precursors

any way to stop lancer+bomber combo as a terran without def? You cant even kill a handful of them. I mean you have a CR to shoot at FR but the FR kills you before you shoot. You have a CO to shoot at DE but DE kills you before you shoot. It is ridiculous! At least the pho or hydra should have the same init, or the pho should have ini 3 or something. We will watch Xans take over the universe and the end positions will prove it. Sad thing is, we have to use thousands of people to pay and find this out

[Shaithess]

blacknova: talking about attacking a terran as a zik though, the fact you stun DE doesn't do anything, unfortunately. The biggest problem is lots of dragons, which make it bloody expensive, especially as resource-to-resource, dragons kill more value in zik CO than they do in terran CO (40% or so more).

I'm not complaining though, just as Ziks can attack terrans efficiently, xans have a bloody difficult time being efficient against ziks (rogues make a bit of a dent in FI, and clipper/corsair combo can stop a lot of FR too, especially since the xan suffers extra casualties if they put arrows in!)

[General Martok]

Originally Posted by Judge

I guess it is no accident that 1up has 80% Xan Planets?

More like 55% according to my data. But I doubt that differs much from the other highranked alliances....

[Blacknova]

Originally Posted by Shaithess

blacknova: talking about attacking a terran as a zik though, the fact you stun DE doesn't do anything, unfortunately. The biggest problem is lots of dragons, which make it bloody expensive, especially as resource-to-resource, dragons kill more value in zik CO than they do in terran CO (40% or so more).

I'm not complaining though, just as Ziks can attack terrans efficiently, xans have a bloody difficult time being efficient against ziks (rogues make a bit of a dent in FI, and clipper/corsair combo can stop a lot of FR too, especially since the xan suffers extra casualties if they put arrows in!)

I was comparing the nix vs. lancer and the cutter vs. the lancer.

The cutter wins.

Nova

[Shaithess]

Again Blacknova, you're comparing against Xandathrii whilst I'm comparing against Terrans. It was a Terran player complaining about Terrans being weak against xans, I'm just saying that, in general, Xan > Terran > Zik > Xan...

Put a bunch of dragons in your bcalc. Then a bunch of phoenix, then a bunch of thief or cutter on the opposite side. Flak against terrans, using ziks, is far less efficient than it is using terran CO...


EDIT: Also, there's little to be gained by attacking a zik w/ lancers... Neither thiefs nor cutters do anything to stop Xan roiders. Also, ziks need corsairs to persuade xans not to him them IMO, as enugh bombers/sabres can break through an equal res of extra clippers (eg. 300 clippers + 4000 corsair is less likely to be attacked than 500 clipper IMO)... And if the xan has a good mix of vsh/lancers it's expensive to attack xans with co. That's why I use DE/CR

umm, I kinda lost the plot there. I only meant to compare zik/ter!