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Unread 18 May 2005, 09:43   #1
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Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Note: this is a cross-post from the stats forum. The other thread being referred to is one started by Appocomaster about stats for next round.


Basing this on the discussions from the other thread, I think these are sound guidelines.

Constraints
| 1. A stealing ship must never be 0-loss defense.
| 2. A stealing ship must never target its own class.
| 3. Stealer kill-ratio efficiency should be topped at 75%.

Race specifics
| 1. Each race should have a few ships of each 3 types, some of which should be cloaked. Numbers should vary depending on flavor.
| 2. Zik should have at least one, possibly two classes they can only hit with stealers.
| 3. Each of a race's attack options should represent a unique variation, requiring unique defense combinations.
| 4. Each race should have one flakking attack option (for early game) and one 'kill off/freeze the defenders' attack option (for late game).
| 5. The exception should be Cathaar who should have two of the latter.
| 6. The exception should be Terran who should have two of the former.

Roiding
| 1. Value ratio to stop an attack should be between 1.5x and 2.25x the attacking value.
| 2. The exception should be EMP, which should be between 0.8x and 1.2x.
| 3. Terran should be represented at the weaker end of the scale defensively.
| 4. Xandathrii should be represented at the stronger end of the scale defensively.

Structure Killers
| 1. Cost should be approximately equal to the cheapest other ship of the same class.
| 2. Armor should be about a third of the cheapest other ship of the same class. This need not be exact.
| 3. Damage should be very low, at most 15 damage efficiency.
| 4. Structure Killers should be present in the flakking attack option for each race.
| 5. Structure Killers should be present in the purely EMP option for attacking with Cath.

Flavor
| 1. Terran should represent high armor, low damage, bad initiative.
| 2. Cathaar should represent low armor, high damage good initiative for EMP, and high armor, low damage, bad initiative for normal.
| 3. Cathaar normal ships should never be better than the equivalent in another race.
| 4. Cathaar EMP should never be worse than the equivalent in another race.
| 5. Xandathrii should represent low armor, high damage, good initiative.
| 6. Xandathrii should never have lower damage than the equivalent in another race.
| 7. Xandathrii should never have high armor than the equivarent in another race, except non-Cathaar EMP ships.
| 8. Zikonian should be represented by bad ships, but good stealing options.
| 9. Zikonian stealers should never be worse than the equivalent in another race.

Last edited by Banned; 18 May 2005 at 09:50.
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Unread 18 May 2005, 12:59   #2
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

So, correct me if I interpret this wrongly, you're saying here that each each race should have cloaked / EMP / stealing / normal ships, but with different variations on the power of each subtype within the race? (e.g Zik will have the best stealers, Cat will have the best EMP etc)

I really really like this idea, as fleet combos and defense capabilities will be endless and varied, adding some much needed spice to the stats and therefore the game.

Good luck to whoever has to design these monumental stats!
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Unread 18 May 2005, 13:28   #3
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

I don't like that idea at all.
The way things are now makes the races more distinctive.
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Unread 18 May 2005, 13:31   #4
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by veX
So, correct me if I interpret this wrongly, you're saying here that each each race should have cloaked / EMP / stealing / normal ships, but with different variations on the power of each subtype within the race? (e.g Zik will have the best stealers, Cat will have the best EMP etc)
I don't think i would like that, as it would remove each race its unique features, although i agree it would give a interesting round for sure with stats like that. But i think that to make reasonably balanced stats the adding of EMP resistance would already give enough space for a decent set of stats (+ maybe the adding of Zik losing a small % in steal ships of value of the ships they have stolen).
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Unread 18 May 2005, 13:51   #5
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Im afraid i disagree with both of you. The way things are now, stealing is either going to be hideously overpowered or really crap.

By spreading this ability in particular across all the races, but making the ziks most efficient at it, stats will be as close to balanced as possible while still retaining racial charachter.
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Unread 18 May 2005, 16:43   #6
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

I really like the idea. It allows each race to specialize in a specific area as they do now EMP, armor, cloaked, and steal. But it would make sense the each race would try their hand in another races technology. Of course they would never be able to master it.
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Unread 18 May 2005, 18:04   #7
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

I think that cathaar EMP ships would need a normal, to high armor. Because firepower is distributed by shipcount, a fleet with a lot of emp ships in it would suffer quite large losses, as soon as few units (+ cheap flak) of a particularly strong ship are present among the defenders.

Btw, does this mean there are more ship types next round?
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Unread 18 May 2005, 20:04   #8
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

CR FLEET'S KILLED THE CATHAAR STAR =) next rnd i wanna see a Cath roiding with CO and FR CR fleets sucks balls
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Unread 18 May 2005, 23:14   #9
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANdrode
I think that cathaar EMP ships would need a normal, to high armor. Because firepower is distributed by shipcount, a fleet with a lot of emp ships in it would suffer quite large losses, as soon as few units (+ cheap flak) of a particularly strong ship are present among the defenders.

Btw, does this mean there are more ship types next round?
I basically assume that absolutely no coding changes will be made to the game*.

* Not because I actually know this, but because it's the only sane assumption to make when it comes to PA.
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Unread 19 May 2005, 07:00   #10
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~RevictioN~
CR FLEET'S KILLED THE CATHAAR STAR =) next rnd i wanna see a Cath roiding with CO and FR CR fleets sucks balls
If you want CO and FR fleets, go Zik. Cath have always (afaik) had CR fleets.


As veX pointed out earlier, the only way for stealing to be balanced is if everyone can do it.

Personally I'd like to see a return to the old style of exclusive tech trees. So, you may choose to focus on building powerful fighters, but this would exclude the possibility of building powerful battleships. Or maybe you choose to develop EMP ships, at the cost of some cloaked ships.

The race system has existed since round 6 with only minor modifications. Really, the character of the races has not changed since round 7, with Terran having big, high-armour ships, Cath having a mix of small and large EMP ships, Xan having high-damage low-armour small ships and Zik having poor initiative stealers. Subversion and "proper" stealing have been the only changes to the system; both have been tried and have unbalanced the game in different ways.

I think it's about time for a change, there really isn't any new innovation that can be made with the existing races. Everything that can be done has been done, it's time for a blank slate and some new ideas.
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Unread 19 May 2005, 08:16   #11
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

I really like the idea of each race having a few of each ship type, I think it will make for more varied and interesting game play.
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Unread 19 May 2005, 11:59   #12
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

i hope i read it correctly

every race get at least 1 normal (terran) ship, 1 cloaked and 1 EMP
and only ziks get stealing ships?

so ziks shouldn't even have to steal EMP ships but build them?
attack with those to freeze your opponent and steal them at the same time. That's a bit overpowered i guess...
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Unread 19 May 2005, 12:06   #13
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by paolo
i hope i read it correctly
Nope.

Quote:
every race get at least 1 normal (terran) ship, 1 cloaked and 1 EMP
and only ziks get stealing ships?
Nope.

Quote:
so ziks shouldn't even have to steal EMP ships but build them?
attack with those to freeze your opponent and steal them at the same time. That's a bit overpowered i guess...
Quit smoking crack and it doesn't look as bad.
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Unread 19 May 2005, 13:06   #14
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablo
every race get at least 1 normal (terran) ship, 1 cloaked and 1 EMP
and only ziks get stealing ships?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned's original post
Race specifics
| 1. Each race should have a few ships of each 3 types, some of which should be cloaked. Numbers should vary depending on flavor.
So, every race gets a few EMP/cloaked/stealing ships. Everyone gets some of each. They also all have normal 'kill' ships.


Hope that was more helpful.
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Unread 19 May 2005, 13:16   #15
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
So, every race gets a few EMP/cloaked/stealing ships. Everyone gets some of each. They also all have normal 'kill' ships.
There are 3 shiptypes: Normal, Steal and EMP. There is also a flag for whether a ship is Cloaked or not.

This opens some fun possibilities. Incidentally, I don't think non-Xan races should have many cloaked ships. I also think Xan should have most cloaked ships and the most options for faking. For example, this round you can't really fake FI as FR at a Terran, because Peg aren't threatened by the normal FR attack. You can fake a Cath with a low Tula count. You can fake a Xan with a low TBT count. You can fake Zik, but he's like to keep his Cutlass home if he gets Arrow def (unless he's a twat).
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Unread 19 May 2005, 13:32   #16
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Race specifics
| 1. Each race should have a few ships of each 3 types, some of which should be cloaked. Numbers should vary depending on flavor.
that sounds like a bitch to balance unless all four races end up being basically the same or some of the ships are designed to be useless.

a decent combat engine with agility/arm/emp-res/wpsp/wppwr/#guns and without damage being carried over to the next ship would go a lot further towards balanced and varied stats than giving all races a bit of everything (sounds a bit like R3's choice between Tulas and BAs)

at the end of the day it depends on what you make of these "guidelines"
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Unread 19 May 2005, 13:52   #17
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

i like the idea, besides it is 'realistic'. With the races messing with one another over all these rounds, one can assume they've learned how to copy (even imperfectly) part of the alien technologies. and it would add more diversity if as suggested by ComradeRob, you had to make a choice researching alien technology (priority on EMP, Stealing or Cloacking).
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Unread 19 May 2005, 14:06   #18
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Lightbulb Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by at0mic.c0w
at the end of the day it depends on what you make of these "guidelines"
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
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Unread 19 May 2005, 15:30   #19
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
i thought i'd point it out before people got the impression that these guidelines will decide what r14 stats will be like
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Unread 19 May 2005, 15:59   #20
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by at0mic.c0w
i thought i'd point it out before people got the impression that these guidelines will decide what r14 stats will be like
they may well have a significant influence
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Unread 19 May 2005, 18:26   #21
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Jester wins again.
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Unread 19 May 2005, 18:45   #22
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by at0mic.c0w
that sounds like a bitch to balance unless all four races end up being basically the same or some of the ships are designed to be useless.
Like they arn't already
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Unread 20 May 2005, 00:44   #23
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by veX
Like they arn't already
that's not the impression i have of r13 stats. maybe you can elaborate a little.
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Unread 20 May 2005, 01:24   #24
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by at0mic.c0w
that's not the impression i have of r13 stats. maybe you can elaborate a little.
The Harpy was designed to be useless (inclined to call this a mistake tbh).

I'm a big fan of designing ships to be useless (or rather, bad choices). It means people can have bad fleets and good fleets. The PAX combat engine has changed how uselessness works a lot, though.
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Unread 20 May 2005, 21:24   #25
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Note: this is a cross-post from the stats forum. The other thread being referred to is one started by Appocomaster about stats for next round.


Basing this on the discussions from the other thread, I think these are sound guidelines.
I haven't read the discussions on the stats forum, but I think you are dead wrong. Every time the stats undergo a major change this results in stats being enormously unbalanced. And when they tweak existing stats, they often make such drastical changes that the strongest race of last round suddenly becomes too weak.

My main guideline would be: change only as little as is necessary to balance the stats. Stats have to be thoroughly tested. These stats have been tested and people are aware on what is wrong with them. Change the faults (don't overdo it).

And yes I often vote on a conservative party.
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Unread 20 May 2005, 21:38   #26
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie
I haven't read the discussions on the stats forum, but I think you are dead wrong.
heh.

Quote:
Every time the stats undergo a major change this results in stats being enormously unbalanced.
I hear r11 was pretty well balanced, apart from the winning alliance being heavy on Xan, to an opposition alliance heavy on Ter.

Quote:
And when they tweak existing stats, they often make such drastical changes that the strongest race of last round suddenly becomes too weak.
Sort of. It depends a lot on who's making the stats. Round 6 and 7 (especially) both had pretty decently balanced stats (imo).

Quote:
My main guideline would be: change only as little as is necessary to balance the stats. Stats have to be thoroughly tested. These stats have been tested and people are aware on what is wrong with them. Change the faults (don't overdo it).
People will pick the wrong race next round regardless.

As for the guidelines I posted, they're mainly inspired by one thing. I think every race should have stealing, it's simply too much fun to limit to one race. It follows from this that simply making some adjustments to the current set isn't really feasible.

Under other conditions, I'd agree though.
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Unread 21 May 2005, 03:16   #27
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
The Harpy was designed to be useless (inclined to call this a mistake tbh).

I'm a big fan of designing ships to be useless (or rather, bad choices). It means people can have bad fleets and good fleets. The PAX combat engine has changed how uselessness works a lot, though.
my comment was aimed at the claim r13 races were more or less all the same. there are of course some less useful ships like the harpy or the sabre - wether they were designed to be like that i can't tell for sure but if so i'd have to ask WHY
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Unread 21 May 2005, 05:06   #28
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
I hear r11 was pretty well balanced, apart from the winning alliance being heavy on Xan, to an opposition alliance heavy on Ter.
I'd still disagree on that. Ziks were easily ownable by anyone. So were caths. Terrans were untouchable by ziks, and you could only hurt xans if you either sacrificed all your DE, or used the subversive def technique to save your clippers. Which also wastes fleetslots...
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Unread 21 May 2005, 08:28   #29
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I'd still disagree on that. Ziks were easily ownable by anyone. So were caths. Terrans were untouchable by ziks, and you could only hurt xans if you either sacrificed all your DE, or used the subversive def technique to save your clippers. Which also wastes fleetslots...
You have such a big chip on your shoulder about r11 stats that I can't really take anything you say about them seriously.
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Unread 21 May 2005, 08:31   #30
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by at0mic.c0w
my comment was aimed at the claim r13 races were more or less all the same. there are of course some less useful ships like the harpy or the sabre - wether they were designed to be like that i can't tell for sure but if so i'd have to ask WHY
The Sabre is hardly useless*.

The idea is simply that if you make some ships good and some bad, you can get people to make good and bad fleets. Like people who built interceptors in round 3.

Unfortunately, doing it by nerfing the ship's stats was wrong**. It should've been done by adjusting targetting etc.

* Though FI is so vastly superior to FR/DE in the long run that etc etc

** Every newbie can see that 'oh, it has shit armor resistance, I won't build that'.
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Unread 22 May 2005, 19:48   #31
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

This sounds a little bit like going back to pre-race stats, where in some rounds you had to choose during the round to research 'science' or 'war'. However, given the current state of the game, this is certainly a direction worth investigating at least.
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Unread 23 May 2005, 01:47   #32
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Here's one I forgot.

| All 0-loss (or in the case of EMP, untargetted) defense must be max ETA for that class. For example, Thieves/Clippers/Drakes v Xan FR this round. One or two exceptions should probably exist for Xan.
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Unread 23 May 2005, 13:08   #33
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

also i think that either all races or no race should get a combined emp+steal defence option.
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Unread 23 May 2005, 17:03   #34
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Im pretty sure in the orginal post, each race got emp, steal and normal. Therefore everyone does have acess to freeze+steal
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Unread 23 May 2005, 17:31   #35
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by at0mic.c0w
also i think that either all races or no race should get a combined emp+steal defence option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by veX
Im pretty sure in the orginal post, each race got emp, steal and normal. Therefore everyone does have acess to freeze+steal
What c0w's saying is that no particular race should have an advantage in being able to steal ships for no losses. They still have access to the same ships, just that their EMP and steal ships don't have the same targetting or eta.

Imagine a race (e.g Cath) having a CO class (eta 7 in alliance, so can defend against any incomings) which froze FI, and then stole them - such as having both Beetles and Cutlasses this round. It wouldn't be very fair on anyone using FI.
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Unread 23 May 2005, 18:12   #36
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
There are 3 shiptypes: Normal, Steal and EMP. There is also a flag for whether a ship is Cloaked or not.
So if I understand correctly there might be cloaked stealships, or cloaked EMP ships? If you can only cloak "normal" ships, you don't need to flag them, and just call them the 4th shiptype.
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Unread 23 May 2005, 19:27   #37
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

u can cloak any ship
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Unread 23 May 2005, 19:39   #38
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
What c0w's saying is that no particular race should have an advantage in being able to steal ships for no losses. They still have access to the same ships, just that their EMP and steal ships don't have the same targetting or eta.

Imagine a race (e.g Cath) having a CO class (eta 7 in alliance, so can defend against any incomings) which froze FI, and then stole them - such as having both Beetles and Cutlasses this round. It wouldn't be very fair on anyone using FI.
Well in truth thats not entirely correct as the resources spent would be spread so that cath couldn't emp as much of the attacker....
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Unread 23 May 2005, 21:15   #39
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by General Martok
So if I understand correctly there might be cloaked stealships, or cloaked EMP ships?
Yes.

Quote:
If you can only cloak "normal" ships, you don't need to flag them, and just call them the 4th shiptype.
'No duh.'
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Unread 24 May 2005, 10:40   #40
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
What c0w's saying is that no particular race should have an advantage in being able to steal ships for no losses. They still have access to the same ships, just that their EMP and steal ships don't have the same targetting or eta.

Imagine a race (e.g Cath) having a CO class (eta 7 in alliance, so can defend against any incomings) which froze FI, and then stole them - such as having both Beetles and Cutlasses this round. It wouldn't be very fair on anyone using FI.
Ah i misinterpreted his post. Well, to be honest, I would have thought that this would be something for the person in charge of the stats to decide. It also may not be entirely unfaesible and overpowered when you take into account the relative efficiency/cost ratio of the combo for the specific race.
Beta/alpha testing would be the only way to find out. Although granted its not an ideal replica of a real rounds dynamics.

PS, can we start making these stats so i dont have to wait to long between rounds
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Unread 24 May 2005, 11:54   #41
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by veX
I would have thought that this would be something for the person in charge of the stats to decide.
that's why my post doesn't contain the words "i demand that... or else..."
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Unread 24 May 2005, 21:02   #42
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

I think this is a great idea, it would really spice things up and get away from the same old stuff thats been going on since rnd7. It would really increase the number of variations and would allow everyone to do their own thing.
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Unread 25 May 2005, 00:24   #43
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

I am a Terran for life and i dont want cloaked ships or ships that emp or ships that steal.
I want Terran to be Terran specific like this round they have been what I would call Pure Terran and perfect in my eyes.
I dont wanna emp ships i wanna kill them thats why I have gone Terran.
I dont need to hide behind cloaked ships coz Terrans are nails and should scare ppl.
I dont wanna steal ships because I dont need to coz I don loose as many as xan/cats/ziks due to my strong armour.

I dont know if you will understand where i am coming from because I am tired atm but i hope I have put the right msg across.
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Unread 25 May 2005, 09:40   #44
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah02
I am a Terran for life and i dont want cloaked ships or ships that emp or ships that steal.
I want Terran to be Terran specific like this round they have been what I would call Pure Terran and perfect in my eyes.
I dont wanna emp ships i wanna kill them thats why I have gone Terran.
I dont need to hide behind cloaked ships coz Terrans are nails and should scare ppl.
I dont wanna steal ships because I dont need to coz I don loose as many as xan/cats/ziks due to my strong armour.

I dont know if you will understand where i am coming from because I am tired atm but i hope I have put the right msg across.
Racist.
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Unread 25 May 2005, 12:09   #45
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

I'm not certain if it'd restrain stealing more, but I'd avoid letting a steal ship of a pod class (pod flak, like buccaneer) target a ship that is designed to stop the pod class in question. Especially if the ship in question is the one that strikes in defences an eta lower than the pod flak (ie. arrowhead - buccaneer).

At the moment, even if arrowhead (being the prime anti-fr) fires first, buccaneers can cover a significant amount of losses merely by plowing through defending arrows. In my opinion, this is one of the aspects that makes a zik frigate fleet particularily strong, not only the thief fr/fr -setting.
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Unread 25 May 2005, 12:34   #46
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah02
I am a Terran for life and i dont want cloaked ships or ships that emp or ships that steal.
I want Terran to be Terran specific like this round they have been what I would call Pure Terran and perfect in my eyes.
I dont wanna emp ships i wanna kill them thats why I have gone Terran.
I dont need to hide behind cloaked ships coz Terrans are nails and should scare ppl.
I dont wanna steal ships because I dont need to coz I don loose as many as xan/cats/ziks due to my strong armour.

I dont know if you will understand where i am coming from because I am tired atm but i hope I have put the right msg across.
I agree
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Unread 25 May 2005, 13:23   #47
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Racist.
how so?
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Unread 26 May 2005, 03:36   #48
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
I'm not certain if it'd restrain stealing more, but I'd avoid letting a steal ship of a pod class (pod flak, like buccaneer) target a ship that is designed to stop the pod class in question. Especially if the ship in question is the one that strikes in defences an eta lower than the pod flak (ie. arrowhead - buccaneer).

At the moment, even if arrowhead (being the prime anti-fr) fires first, buccaneers can cover a significant amount of losses merely by plowing through defending arrows. In my opinion, this is one of the aspects that makes a zik frigate fleet particularily strong, not only the thief fr/fr -setting.
The problem is much worse with Thieves v Thieves.

Bucc v Arrow is different case alltogether. Imo it's a 'correct' case, though the armor/damage balance may be a bit wrong.
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Unread 26 May 2005, 11:10   #49
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

Yes, one of zik's main strengths which make them an excellent roiding race is the fact that they can make up losses in their own fleet by generically capping a lot to even them out (Which usually equalizes what they lose out in xp, imo)


I'm in favour of the most basic outlines of the inital post but I haven't really thought that much into it so can't comment too much.
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Unread 26 May 2005, 11:26   #50
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Re: Philosophical guidelines to stat design

I wouldn't mind seeing some of these changes, though i really want Xan's cloak to really be an advantage, as it is now, its not a huge advantage, and if every race gets a little cloak then its going to be even more useless
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