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Unread 13 Mar 2005, 08:33   #51
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
i have this raging, personal hate against terrans, and i'm expecting that 'hate' to cultivate in r13 heh
You know, Im currently having something of that same feeling
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Unread 13 Mar 2005, 18:04   #52
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

I was thinking about this last night, and in effect any zikonian is roidable by cr, due to the stealing taking place after the capping of roids, so what does this mean for zikonians? Well quite simply what i was doing in the beta yesterday evening, the top planets were zikonian/xan/terran (ie top 10) I was the only cath all I did was launch hornets at the ziks, cap 200 roids, lose 100 roids when i got reattacked and lost some cr, but my xp was high, so my score kept me #1/#2 while i was playing.

To be honest this made ziks the weakest race, which is why in the end you saw the terran and xans taking control, as a cath I have very little way of stopping either race

My fleet was

100 hornet
100 tula
100 roach
200 scorpion

I could roid anyone I wanted, but even with a large amount well i thought large amont of anti bs, in the way of cr, i couldnt stop the terran bs.
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Unread 13 Mar 2005, 19:05   #53
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
You must be kidding. Consider for a moment the Sentinel as a CO again and have a look at their comparative worth.
You might be right, but I firmly believe the Vsh is still too weak. It's not so much a matter of armor as it is damage. Less armor, more damage! I don't care about losing them, it's a gimme...but they ought to seriously fk stuff up before they die, not just do 'average' damage.


Quote:
You're wrong. The high power is hidden away in the iniative.
Initiative is meaningless if you fire first, but don't do jack for damage...which is the case currently (look at those breports I gave you, the Ziks had a field day with me).

Quote:
This set of stats is deliberately high armor/low power to make attacking easier. Xandathrii have the easiest time defending in all the standard cases. Each and every increase in Xandathrii kill-power will make attacking more difficult. That doesn't mean it will never happen, but it does mean that I'm loathe to do so.
I'm not saying it's horrible, only that it wouldn't hurt to tweak things a bit...less armor, more damage...and see what happens in the next beta.

If it ends up being shite, I'll shut my mouth (or try to, heh) and yeild to your superior logic
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Unread 13 Mar 2005, 19:17   #54
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Revision 5 is ready, loads done here. New stats can be found here. I think this should be the last of the major changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beta4->beta5
* Change Clipper name to Cutter.
* Change Cutter name to Buccaneer.
* Change Buccaneer name to Clipper.
* Change New Buccaneer target to CO.
* Change New Buccaneer type to Steal.
* Change New Buccaneer init from 10 to 43.
* Increase New Buccaneer Armor from 60 to 72.
* Increase New Buccaneer Damage from 43 to 55.
* Change New Clipper target to DE.
* Change New Clipper type to Norm.
* Change New Clipper init from 41 to 5.
* Increase New Clipper Armor from 120 to 130.
* Increase New Clipper Damage from 85 to 100.
* Change Assassin init from 9 to 6.
* Increase Corsair Armor from 9 to 10.
* Increase Corsair Damage from 6 to 8.
* Increase Thief Armor from 75 to 80.
* Increase Thief Damage from 50 to 62.
* Increase Marauder Armor from 170 to 185.
* Increase Marauder Damage from 150 to 195.
* Increase Pirate Armor from 300 to 375.
* Increase Pirate Damage from 200 to 300.
* Increase Ironclad Damage from 62 to 85.
Zikonian have received a load of upgrades to make them more playable. They've got a way of harvesting a CO fleet while roiding with FR now. The new Clipper (DE->DE) is to offset the Gryphon's new targetting. That is, I don't want 3 sets of FR->DE ships. Non-steal init is improved, though still 'bad'.

Quote:
* Change Phoenix name to Harpy.
* Change Harpy name to Phoenix.
* Change New Harpy target from Destroyer to Fighter.
* Change Gryphon target from Battleship to Destroyer.
* Change Pegasus Init from 4 to 5.
Terran get the smallest set of changes, simply getting an eta 7 anti-FI with the new Harpy, and their anti-DE changed to the Gryphon. The biggest change is probably Pegasus init from 4 to 5.


Quote:
* Increase Viper Damage from 25 to 30.
* Increase Black Widow Damage from 115 to 130.
* Increase Scarab Damage from 90 to 95.
* Change Tarantula Target from CO to FI.
* Drop Tarantula Damage from 75 to 65
* Change Scorpion Type from EMP to Norm.
* Change Scorpion Init from 2 to 8.
* Change Scorpion Armor from 175 to 235.
* Change Scorpion Damage from 195 to 100.
* Change Guardian Init from 8 to 9.
Cathaar get a minor Viper upgrade to lessen the Defender syndrom. The Black Widow gets some extra power to make up for the Scorpion change. The Tarantula now hits FI to make bringing BW along on attacks a reasonably viable option. The idea that the Scorp and Tarant changes fill are that the Cathaar normal ships should function as clean-up crews for what's left un-held.

Quote:
* Decrease Pulsar price from 375*3 to 350*3.
* Increase Kthal Fireblade Armor from 5 to 7.
* Increase Kthal Fireblade Damage 6 to 8.
* Increase Kthal Fireblade Cost from 750*3 to 850*3.
* Change TBT Init from 1 to 4.
* Increase Xentrallis Peacekeeper Armor from 70 to 125.
* Increase Xentrallis Peacekeeper Damage from 130 to 200.
Xandathrii get the Pulsar slightly upgraded, the Fireblade slightly upgraded. The TBT's insane init 'bug' is rectified, but kept at init 4 to give the Fireblade a niche. The Peacekeeper turns into a proper ship to help stave off the BS issue.

Edit: It wouldn't be PA without forgetting something:
Quote:
* Change all SK inits to 50.

Last edited by Banned; 13 Mar 2005 at 19:28.
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Unread 13 Mar 2005, 19:35   #55
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochese
You might be right, but I firmly believe the Vsh is still too weak. It's not so much a matter of armor as it is damage. Less armor, more damage! I don't care about losing them, it's a gimme...but they ought to seriously fk stuff up before they die, not just do 'average' damage.
The Beetle presents a major problem here. The results just end up swinging too much with the current combat engine. If we were talking 3-tick combat it'd be a lot easier to make more nuanced stats.
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Unread 13 Mar 2005, 20:23   #56
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

I like the new stats for the peacekeeper, something to stop terran bs was certainly needed and i have a feeling this upgrade will do the trick.

The blackwidow change is also a good move, some more punch (even if it only is stunning) was required here
I'd also agree with cocheese when he says he wants ridiculous amounts of firepower and paper thin armour, but see the problem with emp firing first. There really is nothing i can think of to help this, because if you change the beetle to co targetting and then the spider to normal damage and fi targeting, xan will probably run away with the round early on.

Unless the new spider was slightly more efficient than xan figther killers, and had the same init? Otherwise it would have to be flakked with harpies or something, which would still result in heavy defender losses and hardly any return fire.

I really dont eveny your job

That being said, I like this stats team <3
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Unread 13 Mar 2005, 20:26   #57
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

terran is very ungodly, very threateningly powerful that their init's become meaningless numbers

it's also amazing how cathaar stats improved with bw upgrade, the viper upgrade and tarantulas, now targetting fighters - spiders have just become the prime anti-corvettes and it should be interesting

still in the dark about how effective ziks are going to be
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Unread 13 Mar 2005, 21:34   #58
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

I liked the previous version more.

Does the change to SK mean we can start killing structures with stolen Structure Killers again? (I know it won't be easy with these stats.)

Battleships were good in the beta. Not much too good though. Big ships always look stronger when the ticks are faster and people are not playing in big alliances. Terran Bs could be stopped with just a tiny bit of defence and a big order of fresh marauders (which then gives the zik a nice Bs roiding fleet).

Zikonian will prove realy hard to balance as they can steal ships without losses (even gaining salvage when defending).
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Unread 13 Mar 2005, 22:10   #59
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie
Does the change to SK mean we can start killing structures with stolen Structure Killers again? (I know it won't be easy with these stats.)
No, just like you couldn't steal with stolen ships in the same tick.
Quote:
Zikonian will prove realy hard to balance as they can steal ships without losses (even gaining salvage when defending).
Stolen ships grant no salvage.
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Unread 13 Mar 2005, 22:11   #60
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Terrans were downgraded a lot:
Zik upgraded against Terran:
The new Clipper makes hitting a Zik with De impossible. The upgrade of the Marauder was also aimed to weaken the Terran.
Terran downgrades:
The new Gryphon is useless in attacks, while the downgrade of the Pegasus makes it impossible to hit Xan.
Cathaar upgrades against Terran:
Viper upgraded against De, BW upgraded against Bs.
The change to the Tarantula will make Xan focus more on Terran.
Xan:
Pulsar price decreased.
Fireblade improved against Terran.
Peacekeeper improved.

May I note that the best two races in the beta were Xan an Zik – NOT Terran.
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Unread 13 Mar 2005, 22:20   #61
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie
Terrans were downgraded a lot:
Yeah, I expect this to balance out a bit in revision 6.
Quote:
May I note that the best two races in the beta were Xan an Zik – NOT Terran.
I built just about nothing but BS throughout the beta. I left at pt200 while top3 then came home after missing 300 ticks and rocketed right back to where I was, just behind Zero whose BS fleet had not been prevented from getting max cap once the entire night.

As I've mentioned earlier I think the beta over-represented the power of Terran BS, but that doesn't mean they weren't a bit unbalanced.

Also, check your PM.
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Unread 13 Mar 2005, 22:38   #62
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Is there a channel i can idle in? Even though im not in the beta, id like to know how things are going on irc.
(also i might get to nick someones account if they get fed up )
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Unread 13 Mar 2005, 22:42   #63
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by veX
Is there a channel i can idle in? Even though im not in the beta, id like to know how things are going on irc.
(also i might get to nick someones account if they get fed up )
I'm not going to be available on IRC until tuesday at the earliest. As for beta access, talk to Kal, I'm sure another sensible head will be welcomed.
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 01:01   #64
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Zks ships steal after an attacker on them caps roids? Looks like people have to retire the "Zik every round" Idea.
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 01:10   #65
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Indeed! I'm dropping zik in favor of terran unless they are changed severely myself!
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 01:19   #66
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

I'm considering swapping the Marauder and Pirate targeting. While I realize the Terran crowd will dislike this, does anyone else have thoughts on the matter?
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 01:34   #67
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
I'm considering swapping the Marauder and Pirate targeting. While I realize the Terran crowd will dislike this, does anyone else have thoughts on the matter?
I have to admit that I have not taken one look at the stats, nor have I played the beta. But if this change will help with the Zik being owned situation, I am for it.
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 01:52   #68
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
I'm considering swapping the Marauder and Pirate targeting. While I realize the Terran crowd will dislike this, does anyone else have thoughts on the matter?
it will definatly help zik as far as anti bs goes.
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 01:55   #69
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
it will definatly help zik as far as anti bs goes.
That is definitely part the idea. The real question is, would giving Zik 'free' access to DE and BS pods be too dangerous?
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 02:07   #70
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
I'm considering swapping the Marauder and Pirate targeting. While I realize the Terran crowd will dislike this, does anyone else have thoughts on the matter?
For starters, it makes Chimeras considerably more useful for Terrans as anti-BS defence - to stop Pirates stealing their BS. I think it'd be near vital, to be honest. Otherwise a Zik with a few stolen Terran BS could walk all over Terrans (I'm ignoring ally defence here).

Zik would have no chance of stealing Black Widows or Scarabs in large numbers, since Marauders would get frozen first. However, my instinct tells me that this is a good thing...imagine a uber-Zik with mass stolen EMP ships :eek:.


To all those saying that they won't go Zik, I think that you're making a mistake. I played Zik in the private beta and finished 3rd, rarely getting attacked once I grew to a large size. I think it really proved the point that in the real round, there'll be very big Ziks and small Ziks, with little in-between. The race rewards the effort you put into it. Stolen ships can fill major gaps in your fleet, for example stolen Vsh as anti-CO defence. At one point I had more Vsh than most of the Xan players (around 100k).

Ziks will get most of their stolen ships from defence, especially in-gal defence. The period of time before Jumpgate Probes will make or break a Zik planet - once (sensible) people know whether or not to land, there's going to be a lot fewer successful steals.

In my opinion, one of the most interesting things to be worked out is whether or not a Zik can successfully attack another Zik. I'm going to take a decent look at this and report back once I have a clear picture in my mind.


Apart from that, bring on the public Beta!
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 02:54   #71
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
That is definitely part the idea. The real question is, would giving Zik 'free' access to DE and BS pods be too dangerous?
I would argue no, because while the terran will be strong, hopefully with ziks stealing they will be rather strong as well, you have to remember that a zik can still be roided with max cap, if they have strong anti bs, yet the question will be for terrans is it worth roiding them for a sustainable loss, it will also as furball pointed out mean the chimera will be a greater feature of a terrans race, so should in effect mean that the reliance on bs will of changed. What I think will be seen as far as terrans fleets go will be a strong de/bs fleet but one that can be challenged.
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 10:42   #72
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

i just read a comment about most ships stolen for zik will be on defence, but realistically how many people will land once newsscans(jpg's) are out in a real round? obviously in fast rounds stealing is ALOT easier, but can't really be compared to a real round.

people don't suicide too often and with these zik stats it will be very very hard to play them. surely with the stealing after roidloss it's very easy to just podrush zik planets... as you don't need any fleet with the pods the stealing is also useless defencewise. The only real way of playing a proper zik planet atm is to have a REALLY strong galaxy and not everyone can have that. Now i'm the last to argue we should make every race easy to play for every noob, but i do think this is going a bit overboard.

p.s. keep in mind the testing is done in a scenario which most likely will never occur in the real round.
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 12:51   #73
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
i just read a comment about most ships stolen for zik will be on defence, but realistically how many people will land once newsscans(jpg's) are out in a real round? obviously in fast rounds stealing is ALOT easier, but can't really be compared to a real round.
Seeing as you can get full cap despite losing your entire fleet, I think more than you suppose will land. For the Zik it will mean trading roids for ships, which in turn can be used to regain the roids.

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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 14:11   #74
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

In the beta, terran looked amazingly solid. A terran BS rush is going to be very difficult to stop, for a very long time if its done proper. The way to play against Zik seems to be if you can afford to lose a bit of fleet to gain XP, you'll get by.

All in all the beta gave us no concept of what it will be like, because there was no organised defence or attack to any reasonable level.
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 14:25   #75
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
In the beta, terran looked amazingly solid. A terran BS rush is going to be very difficult to stop, for a very long time if its done proper. The way to play against Zik seems to be if you can afford to lose a bit of fleet to gain XP, you'll get by.
The Terran BS rush was more effective in the Beta because of the limited amount of roids in the universe. Leviathans do low damage and will be limited to pod only rushes in a real game. I got away with not having any fleet for >150 ticks and only losing roids once, that's not going to happen in a real game.

I don't plan on playing Terran in the next beta, so I'm hoping someone (hello Zero) will keep the BS flag flying so we can see if they still have the oomph, so to speak.
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 17:16   #76
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Personally i feel zik shouldn't be given any leg-ups so to speak because the successful zik players will no doubt piggyback with some cath friends and get some easy ships. Zik is meant to be the hardest race to play with the biggest pay off if it works, and so there shouldnt be too many people allowed to have every ship in large numbers.

as if cath didnt have enough problems with CO, it needed one of its ships to change targetting.. p.s was the beetle that bad anti-fi? surely xans can now roid caths using fireblades and lancers wave 1, then any fighter and dagger combo?
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 17:27   #77
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

I see where your coming from, perhaps the solution would be tula co, scorpion back to targettin fi and emp, and then a stronger black widow?
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 17:47   #78
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

yeah maybe, but i think in the cases where two ships target same class, one needs to emp, other is normal.. so spider emps or tula...

also, maybe one ship could be changed to be a CO... since theres only the pod and beetle in that class?
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 18:55   #79
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
Personally i feel zik shouldn't be given any leg-ups so to speak because the successful zik players will no doubt piggyback with some cath friends and get some easy ships. Zik is meant to be the hardest race to play with the biggest pay off if it works, and so there shouldnt be too many people allowed to have every ship in large numbers.

as if cath didnt have enough problems with CO, it needed one of its ships to change targetting.. p.s was the beetle that bad anti-fi? surely xans can now roid caths using fireblades and lancers wave 1, then any fighter and dagger combo?
I can tell you've never played with a Zik race which can steal no Zik is going to have every ship in large numbers. Yes, it's true that Ziks will piggy-back with Cath, but there's two provisios on that:

1) That Zik probably isn't going to be getting many roids - so that's an low-roid attack. And roids mean XP and growth.
2) Ziks will only be able to piggy-back steal against races which Cath can hit anyway. And since Cath doesn't look like the strongest of races this round (but I will try them in the public beta anyway, to check this), it's going to be quite tricky to get loads of ships, especially factoring in alliance defence.
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 19:00   #80
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

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Originally Posted by Banned
* Change all SK inits to 50.
this isnt represented in the stats page, they all still say init 30
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 19:07   #81
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero
this isnt represented in the stats page, they all still say init 30
Check the beta stats page, it's correct. I just couldn't be arsed to pull out the stats and update the ones on my page.
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Unread 14 Mar 2005, 19:08   #82
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

well of course they wont have every ship in large numbers, ive played stealing races in PA clones and even with stealing initiative quite low they could get hit easily..

if a zik piggybacks with cath, theres nothing to say they cant get roids unless they are stupid and send too much fleet

caths cr fleet is pretty damn good so ziks can nick some ships if they want, especially if the defender has bad fleet comp..
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Unread 15 Mar 2005, 18:52   #83
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

I think with most stats every race has at least one race it can roid well. I chosse depending on which race can get away with gaining roids for minimal losses during early mid round.



For terrans 1 choice ,roids for mimal losses


its a de pure (all) fleet vs cath

this is due to cath having a init higher de killer. You get roids but will take some losses

For caths - 3 choices roids for mimal losses

pure (all) co fleet vs themselves. You get roids will take minimal losses

cr
Roach + Hornet vs Xans You get roids an hopefully have more Roach than they have FR = no losses or minimal losses

cr
Roach + Hornet vs Ziks You get roids but may get a few ships nicked.

Xan 2 choices

xan pure (all) fi vs Terran, nick roids low losses, depending on flakage

xan pure (all) fr vs Zik, nick roids no losses as long as you have adavantage of sentinel over corsair

Zik

pure (all) co vs Cath nick roids as long as you use stealer co outnumbers your oppents Spiders

pure (all) co vs self as long as as you use stealer co outnumbers your oppents anti co war ships


I may have written off a few combinations. These are from notes i took from home last night.

From the above it could be taken that Cath has more options to attack :-)

Since terran was downgraded to give it less options to attack maybe cath should be aswell?
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Unread 15 Mar 2005, 21:16   #84
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

I have felt that losing the cat an emp cr ship has downplayed them somewhat.

whilst the new Fi targetting tula may be seen as a godsend for some, it's HORRIBLY inefficient so I wouldn't like to build many, and the fact i have to add in DE now to stop say terran BS is a pain in the ass for this pleasure quite frankly (seeing as how my scorps just got pantsified)

I don't feel the changes have helped them in any way, if anything it's made them more vunerable to both BS and to CO as they're less likely to have ships to stop them (previously they had roiding ships to help there). against FI I had the beetle which flaks pods and I still have it now, If I;m going to have an fi killer instead, it needs to have even the vaguest amount of oooomph about it. (I already had 2 high armour low to no dmg cr class ships, why have you given me a third?)


yeah i played cat in the first beta, was hard enough work trying to dodge ALL the zik incs without this hehe
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Unread 16 Mar 2005, 00:59   #85
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

out of interest, are stats trying to be made in a way so that all races can attack each other with equal intensity, or is there an actual 'food chain'?
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Unread 16 Mar 2005, 02:45   #86
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

ok ive pld cath since saturday in the beta and I can safely say, cath can attack anyone and everyone. I dont know if you know how good the beetle/mosquito combo is, but its extremly, quick, efficient and gets the job done. I get cr incoming, i build scarabs, i get bs incoming i build blackwidows, not only that but you still have the strong option imo of cr as a roiding machine. I see cath nothing but a strong race still.
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Unread 16 Mar 2005, 03:35   #87
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
out of interest, are stats trying to be made in a way so that all races can attack each other with equal intensity, or is there an actual 'food chain'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Well yes, but no, but yes, but no.

I wanted to avoid the Terran DE/Cath Defender situation. I wanted to avoid the skew factor that made Xandathrii powerful in round 11 and Cath powerful in round 12. At first MAdnRisKy and I defined a matrix of 'every race has three good targets, one with both its pods, one with each of the other'. The remaining race was itself. This gives you 2 defenders for each type of pod. The idea was that this sort of targetting would be much more resistant to skewing than the plain old 1v1. I think MAd will agree with me when I say that setting up targetting for this was a nightmare. And that was just targetting!

I ended up using that matrix more as guidelines for targetting than any form of rule. Then I applied initiative in a strict EMP -> Cloak -> War -> Zik normal -> Cath normal fashion and progressed from there. At some point while I was still working with Zik as an EMP race I realized that defending self has the same flaw as feeding on a single other race:

The more people choose a race, the worse it becomes. This isn't something new, mist pointed it out when suggesting it (which is where I first saw the idea). The problem is that the most chosen race isn't necessarily the best.

Anyway, even before I was told to muck up everything with stealing I found I was drifting more and more away from the matrix and more towards the design principle we used for the Round 7 stats: Everyone is basically a target, but some fleets are preferable forms of defense. Some people will have fleets focussed in ways that make them undesirable (Terrans with big Dragon fleets may deter Cathaar for example), but that opens them to many other classes. Personal choices affect your weaknesses and strengths rather than just what race you picked.

What I really liked about the Round 6 stats when Petru first showed them to me. They had feel, they evoked imagery. I suppose that's weird to say about a set of numbers. And that was expanded on for Round 7. When Kal first told me about the idea for stealing shooting entirely last, even after pods had capped roids, I got that same feeling. So what we have now is profiling and personality for the ships and races, rather than who they can attack deciding what their ships do and race being more of a guideline for in what shape the ship should be good. There are traces of the original matrix left, but I defy anyone to try to figure out who was able to attack whom.
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Unread 16 Mar 2005, 05:08   #88
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
ok ive pld cath since saturday in the beta and I can safely say, cath can attack anyone and everyone. I dont know if you know how good the beetle/mosquito combo is, but its extremly, quick, efficient and gets the job done. I get cr incoming, i build scarabs, i get bs incoming i build blackwidows, not only that but you still have the strong option imo of cr as a roiding machine. I see cath nothing but a strong race still.
The CO attacks seemed to be far more profitable than the CR attacks certainly: very strong, with beetles being highly effective.

CR less effective than i expected, but a good cumbersome alternative once people have adapted to CO attack if you can get sufficient numbers of it.

The attraction with Cath will probably come if there's a combination for them that absolutely harrangs Terrans, and if everyone goes Terran. My problem was is that I powerplayed from 3 days behind, hence was randomly attacking and playing for XP and losing fleet all over the shop.

No-one's reallly raved about Xandathrii bar Cochese, so i'm not too sure if they are strong also - perhaps it might be worth a bit of focus on them?

I think Zik will turn into a race that though weak in appearance, will be useful if you have partners to roid with and are super organised about it. I'm still concerned about shipfarming, as the burden of proof to prove farming in PA is currently ridiculous.
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Unread 16 Mar 2005, 06:37   #89
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

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Originally Posted by Banned
I'd rather err on the side of safety here. I think that unless they're so bad they're unplayable some hyperactive nutcase (like Kileman) is going to end up winning the round with Zikonian. Because of the nature of the Zik special ability, if it not balanced correctly it can end up making it impossible to play anything but Zik at a competetive level. I'm not worried about that with the current level Zik are at, and they will be receiving some improvements in the next revision.
hyperactive???

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Unread 16 Mar 2005, 07:24   #90
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

face it, most ppl are gonna wanna do zik cause of the stealing. if you make that too good they can feild armies of everyones race that own everything. like take for example mass buccs, if you have terran phoenixes, cath beetles, and xan fireblade and arrow, then you can target the first 4 classes of ships, just from CO, (and remember zik has CO pods) faster than those four classes of ships can target you back. may i also point out that there are no anti CO ships of CR or BS class... meaning a CO army like this is invincible... and cmon dont say youll never get a CO army like that big enuf... ppl will just leech of nubs.. lol or even mates etc etc.

a good zik will just go bucc, theif and marauder... and be 1337....
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Unread 16 Mar 2005, 08:39   #91
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

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Originally Posted by Kileman
hyperactive???
I meant that in the most flattering way possible.
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Unread 16 Mar 2005, 09:09   #92
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

ok just my 2 cents ... but i am an avid Zik Player and have been from when the races started to evolve ... ( round 2 pirates and theives anyone ? )

ok just my basic understanding of the race leads me to belive that zik do what most races don't expect ( they remind me of kinda a cross of the borg from star treck and the shadow from bab5 )

a FI that targets BS
a CO that targets FI
a FR that targets CO
a DE that targets FR
a CR that targets DE
a BS that targets CR

thats 6 of the 12 ships make them the stealers
as ter are DE / BS | cath are CO / CR | xan are FI / FR
lets keep the CO / FR for zik ( although i was thinking FI/BS )
CO pod
FR pod
FR SK's

now we have 9 / 12 ships defined

3 killing ships

well as FR are their main podding class

FR anti BS
FR anti FI (oh i do wish we had rouges back )
FR anti CR

now you can set structure killers back to their normal init as zik now have a way to defend against them ... ( except other zik simple solution change the DE that steals FR to an init 1 before SK's so they can steal them ... )

as i said just a thought
so we end up with :-
class targets type
FI BS steal
CO FI steal
FR FI norm
FR CO steal
FR CR norm
FR BS norm
DE FR steal
CR DE steal
BS CR steal
CO pod pod
FR pod pod
FR SK's Struct
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Unread 16 Mar 2005, 09:27   #93
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

one mistake i noted in my previous post ...

i had mistakenly given zik 6 FR .. ( just a little overkill )
change
FR FI norm -> BS FI norm
( \o/ i get my rouges back after all )
and if thats the case change
CO pod pod -> BS pod pod
( there by making zik FR / BS )

i would still like to see stealing happen before roiding but i know that isn't going to happen ...
however if it were to happen then perhaps you could alter the init of stealing ships to before emp ( i know i know just hear it out ) drop the damage of the stealers by a considerable margin and up the armour to compensate
therefore the stealers don't steal as much but they still get to steal everything and can withstand the punishment a little better ...
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Unread 16 Mar 2005, 15:30   #94
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

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Originally Posted by Banned
Seeing as you can get full cap despite losing your entire fleet, I think more than you suppose will land. For the Zik it will mean trading roids for ships, which in turn can be used to regain the roids.
This is why no MO's will ever want to send zik stealers on defence, and as a result why I suspect many alliances will try to dissuade their members from going zik.
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Unread 16 Mar 2005, 16:40   #95
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

I wanted to post here about my concerns about the stats, as I keep getting told that there is no good arguments for the things I have been saying, so I'll try and construct some here.

The main problem I see in the stats is ziks. In my view, in their current form, they are not fitting in well with the other races.

The first issue I wish to refer to is defence. Simply put, when discussing zik, the defence situation can be summed up well by "Defence? What's that?". Stealing initiative means that zik defending can be very expensive, especially with the infamours firing after pods. My previous post goes into this explaining how nobody is going to want ziks to defend them, but there are further points. If a zik doesn't get defence, all an attacker needs do is work out how many pods are required to get maximum cap, and send just those. If there is no defence, they are guaranteed to get roids if they have none-fi/co/de pods. When it comes to defending others, the only way anybody is going to want a zik defending them is if they are the last fleet there is or it gets covered twice (once with cathaar), which is then a waste of fleets. The only way a zik can ever be any good in defence is if they recieve defence or if when they defend, they only send 'normal' kill ships.

The second issue I wish to discuss is attack. For ziks, there is only one race that is easy to attack, and that is zik (which incidentally, as I mentioned above, is easy for anyone to hit). There is none of the other races that the initiative of the zik pod class (this doesn't mean the pods, but the other ships of the same class as the pods) means they can fire before they get fired at. As such, it is practically impossible to attack anyone that is even close to being as big as you, let alone bigger (unless they have a big hole in their fleet), and on the occasions you do attack, even someone smaller than you, it could potentially be very expensive. I myself played 3 of the betas as zik, and this really showed. It didn't matter how I structured my fleet, if anybody I attacked had ships that fired at me, it always ended up very expensive. Admittedly, I won one of the betas as zik, but it was purely experience that I won through (which I had an insane amount of), and I gained from hitting larger ziks. I was vary rarely able to touch anything non-zik unless it's value was considerably less than mine.

This leads onto the results of this. I do believe that zik is the weaker race. Last round, I felt zik were too strong, and I think they got a raw deal for this round as a result. However, I do believe that the person who wins the round will be zik, but I think it will be a win that makes people bitter. Ziks one saving grace this round is that steal ships don't die when they steal. As such, we are about to see a return to the escort fleets that we tried to leave behind back in round 8 after LDK were heavily criticised for using it to get certain planets roids. Obviously, this is not an illegal tactic, and is perfectly valid, but the community seems not to like it, and I know I don't. If a zik gets a cath player to send enough emp ships to freeze everything, then the zik can cap an entire fleet for free. Now you may think that this balances out the problems I mentioned above, but I have to ask, how many people will be able to get that? Only those in a decent alliance that is not having a hard time of it would be the answer (i.e. those who are going to win anyway get a further advantage - which is sort of a return to exponential growth which PA-Team tried to limit with r10 - the bigger you get, the bigger you can get). From this point of view, I would say that playing zik and doing well is a gamble rather than skill based issue. If you play them, and you're on the winning side, you're sorted, if you play them and are on the losing side (side being used loosely here), then you are destined to do pretty bad. In my view, this shows ziks to be unbalanced with the gameplay as well as other races.

Another point is that, the attack/defence issues quite clearly rely on a zik not having a large quantity of stolen ships. But obviously, they first have to get those ships, and as I described in the above paragraph, I would think that those on the winning side would be the ones who can get that protection, which gives those who have fought for an advantage an even greater advantage. It is almost a prize for getting into the lead. I feel this is bad for the game, as it means if an alliance gets ahead, they are that much harder to bring down. If someone is in an alliance that is having to fight hard, emp ships aren't going to be spare to help a zik cap ships. Another related point to this is on roids. A zik that is fighting hard needs to steal a lot of roids, as ziks that are in an alliance that is being pushed hard are going to get roided, when it only requires pods to get through without defence, it is inevitable that a zik will get roided, this is beyond denial. That means that a zik, in order to grow, needs to cap more roids than they lose, or cap a lot of ships. It is very difficult to see how a zik can do this with the issues I mentioned above. They are most definitely weak on defence, and it is difficult to see how it could ever be argued they were anything but weak on attack, they are certainly not strong on attack, which makes capturing more roids than you lose looks very unlikely unless you are on a side that is already winning and has ships to spare. A zik practically needs spoon feeding to get anywhere.

The most unpleasant side of this is that with stealing ships not dying, that is a massive incentive for the less morally minded to ship-farm. I am concerned we might see a return to this. I sincerely hope PA-Team are taking steps to ensure this doesn't happen, or that they can at least detect it happening, as it does look like the best way to get a zik to grow, and solve all their problems.

My final point is, where does the poor newbie sit in this. Stealing is a novel idea, and one that everybody wants to have a go at, but unless you are both skilled and lucky, you have little hope of doing as well with zik as you would with other races. I am not sure this is the sort of thing that would benefit the game, and get more people into the community.

Now, no 'good' (I use the term very loosely here, as it is your/times place to judge the merits of this post, not mine) critique exists that doesn't have ideas for improvements, so I have a few I will make, although in the end, it is very late in the day, and these stats are a very radical change, and I do think there is an air of 'last minute' about them, (although I am not criticising anyone for this, as it was fate that led to this rather than anybody's incompetence) and as such, I think there is only so much that can be done now and it would have been much better had their been some proper very detailed stats testing during the betas, although there wasn't time, as the combat engine required testing most.

1. Change initiative of pods to fire after stealers. This would make zik a little able to stand on their own from time to time.
2. Make zik ships die when they cap, and have it so that it is a relatively small value increase they get when they cap ships. Zik should not be a race that does well for an elite few who got lucky.
3. I would be tempted to switch the class of cutter/clipper round. This would mean that the clipper (which is an essential defence ship against terran de) would be able to be used for attack and defence, and the cutter which is not quite as essential defensivel could become more of a secondary ship.
4. I would reduce the armour of the Leviathan - cos that thing absolutely decimates a ziks roids (as you well know from the last beta jester).

Other than that, I cannot think of many things that would help at this late stage.
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Unread 16 Mar 2005, 16:49   #96
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Actually I think alliance will want zikonians to defend a lot to help them build up, ofc they will first get it normally covered, but I think then would be smart for them to allow ziks to also come to help build them up. This will help the alliance so I don't see the prob with it, just make sure the guy being attacked is already covered. And a zik will rely heavily on alliance def I think at the start. You'd be trading roids for ships in many attacks, not that bad a trade I think, you just need to find balance.

Just came to mind, ziks will be the exact opisite of what they were during r12
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Unread 16 Mar 2005, 17:11   #97
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

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Originally Posted by Orion Treet
Actually I think alliance will want zikonians to defend a lot to help them build up, ofc they will first get it normally covered
Do you not see how this is a problem? You set it out yourself and explained the problem very well. Ziks won't contribute to the defence, they will be extras in the defence. That is a lot of wasted ships, and when you consider that ziks need a hell of a lot of defence themselves, that is a massive drain on alliance resources. You have to overcover to make ziks any use in defence, and overcovering is a luxury that the vast majority of alliances will not have (especially when they need a larger number of ships than in previous rounds to cover a zik), only the ones that are winning, and that assumes they are winning by a reasonable margin.
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Unread 16 Mar 2005, 17:13   #98
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
T
No-one's reallly raved about Xandathrii bar Cochese, so i'm not too sure if they are strong also - perhaps it might be worth a bit of focus on them?

My focused turned to Terran...quite frankly, I got tired of losing the majority of my fleet.

Vsharrak are quite ace with all the Corvettes flying around, but you really need a ton of them to make sure your initiative is effective--especially against Ziks.

The Pulsar / Fireblade issue needs to be addressed...I tried excluding either ship, and the results weren't very good. Having to build both seems redundant, but neither 'get it done' on their own.

I didn't even bother with Frigates or above.


I still think the Fighters need more damage, and the Fireblade/Pulsar issue should be sorted out.
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Unread 16 Mar 2005, 17:22   #99
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

Cat are an emp race, and should therefore be able to emp every class (in the same fashion zik can steal every class). I would revert tulas back to targetting CO and make that emp, and put scorps to FI and make them kill. (particularly relevent with 2 co pods, including cat, making cat hard to roid cat is probably not a bad idea )

I know messing with the zik targetting is difficult because of the rules about opposition pod class flakers targetting the relavtive stealers, but something is going to go wrong with zik i fear. Either they'll be remembered as the ships which broke the round, or they'll be remembered as the race which did bugger all save serve as farms.

oh and terran armour is just MASSIVELY cheap (possibly too much, esp the BS pod)


Other than that though terran are looking better than they have in the past, with the emphasis back on big ships where it belongs slow starts and better mid to end games (and sacrificing for roid gains).

Cat look pretty well balanced (although see above).

Xan could maybe use a small firepower tweak (for instance -1 vsh armour +2 dmg?). would make for fun early pre scan beetles versus vsh fights
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Unread 16 Mar 2005, 17:38   #100
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Re: Call For Comments: Round 13 Beta 3 Ship Stats

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Originally Posted by Bashar
Do you not see how this is a problem? You set it out yourself and explained the problem very well. Ziks won't contribute to the defence, they will be extras in the defence. That is a lot of wasted ships, and when you consider that ziks need a hell of a lot of defence themselves, that is a massive drain on alliance resources. You have to overcover to make ziks any use in defence, and overcovering is a luxury that the vast majority of alliances will not have (especially when they need a larger number of ships than in previous rounds to cover a zik), only the ones that are winning, and that assumes they are winning by a reasonable margin.
You are asuming they wil remain this way, but they will be this way at the start, the alliance will be helping the Zik build up a strong fleet, which can in turn be used for even more effective alliance def.
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