Laugh at freerserve's inept staff in here! [large post]

[NEWSBOT3]

so i ask them a relatively simple question, like so

Hi guys,

I've noticed recently, that all email i send whilst on my freeserve connection is routed through your mailservers. This wouldnt be a problem except freeserve is blacklisted on most spam blacklists.

This is a rather large problem for me, because i have 3 email addresses i'd like to be able to send mail from.

1. freeserve - I cant use this one, because its on almost every spam blacklist in the world. aol users i am totally unable to mail, and thats a good proportion of the internet alone.
Hence, i cant use this for sending mail to most of my friends etc.

2. @planetarion.com (i work for Planetarion, and frequently need to respond to users emails for help etc. We only ever seng legimate emails, mostly in tech support category, and never unsolicted mail of any kind) Not being able to email customers , is, as im sure you'd know, a bad thing.

3. my university email (@stmail.staffs.ac.uk) , which i have to use for job applications, and various university matters. Being not able to send to lots of people for this one is very annoying, as im sure you can imagine.

The main problem is this :
I cant use any email addresses, since they are all routed through freeserve mail servers.
Im sure you can imagine this is quite some problem for me, and i would ask whether an exception can be made for me so that i can actually use my email addresses for sending mail, rather than as ornamental items.

I have always been very happy with freeserve, and i would hate to have to leave an ISP which i like, and frequently recommend to people over such a small problem.

my thanks in advance

James Wells

--------------
Dear James,

Thank you for your email.

Freeserve are not the ones causing you the problems. It is because
Freeserve refuse to interfere with the way users use their email etc
(to a sensible limit)that other ISPs who do like to interfere and
restrict do so to this extent hence the problems.

We are currently aware that Spamcop are blocking the Freeserve IP range
for outgoing mail, resulting in the non-delivery message you refer to.
The issue has been forwarded to Freeserve Internal Technical Support
who are currently communicating with Spamcop regarding the current
difficulties.

We hope to have a resolution to this in the near future, however in
the meantime, thank you for your continued patience.

If you have any further queries then please do not hesitate to get in
contact with us again.

Kind regards
--------------
Dear <generic person without a name>,

Thank you for your response.

I am intrigued as to how you conclude that Freeserve are not the ones
causing my problems, when, as i am sure you should know (and if you do
not,
I would speak to your technical team who I am sure will tell you),
Freeserve
are forcing all traffic on port 25, WHETHER DIRECTED AT YOUR
MAILSERVER(s)
OR NOT, to your mailserver(s).

I am also somewhat surprised to hear that Freeserve refuse to interfere with my mail, when I can clearly see that ANY traffic on port 25 is clearly BEING interfered with by yourselves when you forcibly redirect it to your mailservers. Whilst I appreciate that you may have reasons for doing this, I have reasons for wanting my email to COME FROM THE MAILSERVERS THAT I SPECIFY rather than those of Freeserve.

I am asking you to do one thing, STOP STEALING MY PORT 25 TRAFFIC

If you would care to state simply whether or not you will do this, then I can go about deciding whether or not I can continue to use Freeserve, or whether I will be forced, somewhat reluctantly to find an ISP whom do not interfere in such a manner with my communications.

Regards,
James Wells
---------------
Dear James,

Thank you for your email.

Firstly I would like to say that Freeserve is not interfering with any
communications, ports etc that you are using, in anyway shape of form.

Hopefully I can explain how email works, which should clear up the
misunderstanding of what is actually happening.

You HAVE to use the SMTP server of the ISP you are connecting to.

All email has to be sent through smtp.freeserve.com, which is our
outgoing mail server. Hence all outgoing mail will be routed to port 25
which is the assigned port for SMTP traffic.

Its not that the mail is being interfered with it HAS to use that
server and port number.

You cannot change the server addresses you are sending from other than
by changing the account you connect to the internet with.
If you were connecting via another isp then you would only be able to
send email via their servers.

The FROM address of the email is decided by the email client you are
using and you should be able to change this setting to whichever email
address you care to use.

To change this in Outlook Express, click tools, click accounts
Click properties and change the address on the general page, then click
close.

You are of course perfectly free to change ISP, but you will find that
ALL isp's worldwide will only allow you to send email via their servers
- this is the way email via the internet works.

Hope this helps, however should you have any further queries then
please do not hesitate to get in contact with us again.

Kind regards
Jay D
Freeserve Technical Support

------------------

Dear Jay D

Thank you for you response.

I can assure you that having written several email clients of my own, i am fully aware of how both the SMTP and POP3 protocol's operate.
It is your companies failure to adhere to those protocols which is my problem.

If i set the outgoing mailserver to smtp.freeserve.com , i would expect my mail to go via that server. This it does

If i set the outgoing mailserver to main.planetarion.com, i would expect the mail to go via that server. This it does not.
If i set the outgoing mailserver to stmail.staffs.ac.uk, i would expect the mail to go via that server. This it does not.

I am afraid i see a flaw in you explanation though, if all ISP's force
outgoing mail through their servers (and this is not the case, i have inspected the mail headers of a lot of email in my time, as well as having used several isps (and indeed having worked at one for some time too)) then what would be the point in anyone other than an isp using a mailserver ?
I'm sure you are not going to tell me thousands of companies and
organisations around the world are all forced to use their ISP's mail servers.

I also find it incredible that you claim to not be interfering with my
communications at the same time as you admit you are in fact doing that very thing by routing my mail to your servers. Do i really have to spell out that re-routing email is interfering just as editing my mail then sending it on would be ?

Furthermore, i would like (with a an exact section number, if you
please) you to show me if i did in fact agree to allow you to do this via the terms and conditions to which i agreed when i joined Freeserve.

My original query, which , i must admit i am concerned at the lack of a straight answer for, is in fact really very simple.

"I NEED MY EMAIL TO GO THROUGH AND ONLY THROUGH THE SERVERS I SPECIFY Will Freeserve, or will it not stop forcing ALL my port 25 traffic through
their servers when i connect to the internet ?"

Regards
(a somewhat annoyed at the lack of progress on this issue)
James Wells

--------------

Dear James,

Thank you for your email.

Please refer to the previous email as it was all explained there. If
you are connected on a Freeserve connection you have to use Freeserve's
outgoing mail server. It will not work with anything else. ISP's will
require you to use their outgoing mail server when connected via their
connection.

If you have any further queries then please do not hesitate to get in
contact with us again.

Kind regards
-------------------
Dear <anonymous person>

I shall not thank you for your response this time as you appear far more concerned with getting rid of my email than actually answering my questions.

Therefore i shall contine to ask my questions until you decide to do your job and reply to my queries.

[my previous response repeated here]

-------------------

Dear James,

Thank you for your email.

In response

>If i set the outgoing mailserver to smtp.freeserve.com , i would
>expect my mail to go via that server. This it does

Which it will if you are connecting Via freeserve account.

>If i set the outgoing mailserver to main.planetarion.com, i would
>expect the mail to go via that server. This it does not.

Which it will not unless you are connecting to the appropriate account

If i set the outgoing mailserver to stmail.staffs.ac.uk, i would expect
the mail to go via that server. This it does not.

Which it will not unless you are connecting to the appropriate account

If you need to use other mail servers you will need to connect to the
internet using the appropriate dial up connection and associated
account or connection details.

Please feel free to contact other ISP's for clarification.

If you have any further queries then please do not hesitate to get in
contact with us again.

Kind regards
Jay D
----------

Dear Jay D

Thank you for your response.
You mention the 'appropriate accounts'.
Neither my University nor www.planetarion.com are ISPs and neither
supply
internet connections. How then can i use these email servers ?

Regards
JAmes Wells

---------------
Dear James,

Thank you for your email.

You will need to talk to their systems admin for server access.
We can only help with problems within the freeserve network.

If you have any further queries then please do not hesitate to get in
contact with us again.

Kind regards
Jay D
-----------

Dear Jay D

This IS a problem with the freeserve network, because it is the
freeserve network which IS NOT ALLOWING ME to access those mail servers.

The systems admins of those servers have given me access, it is
FREESERVE which prevents me from accessing them.

Regards
James Wells

---------------
Dear James,

Thank you for your email.

You will need to talk to their systems admin for server access through VPN, which should work but we do not provide support.

If you have any further queries then please do not hesitate to get in contact with us again.

Kind regards
Jay D

Excuse, me, they just recommended that i set up a VPN to be able to send email ? Isnt this a basic requirement of an internet service provider (whom, afterall do provide me with an email address, which i also cannot use)

WHAT THE ****?

[ParraCida]

Sue them, its bound to be illegal.

[Punch]

They are about as smart as the staff at ntl who thought up the idea of capping users, thinking they could get away with it despite it being illegal.

[queball]

Originally posted by NEWSBOT3
so i ask them a relatively simple question, like so



Excuse, me, they just recommended that i set up a VPN to be able to send email ? Isnt this a basic requirement of an internet service provider (whom, afterall do provide me with an email address, which i also cannot use)

WHAT THE ****?

I'd generally want to use a VPN to send email across the internet. Don't planetarion allow ssh access? But yeah, I can't see any good reason for freeserve to interfere. It might just be a way of saving traffic, like transparent http proxying, and stopping spammers that use freeserve from using open relays.

[queball]

Originally posted by Punch
They are about as smart as the staff at ntl who thought up the idea of capping users, thinking they could get away with it despite it being illegal.

?
Was that the maximum quotas of 10GB a month or so?

[meglamaniac]

Heh.
Inspect thier EULA/TOS - does it mention that you must use the freeserve mailservers or that they have any claim over data you send via their connection?

If not, please be advised:
Freeserve UK is in breach of the UK Data Protection Act 1998, specifically though not limited to Section 7, Clause 1:

PART II
RIGHTS OF DATA SUBJECTS AND OTHERS
Right of access to personal data.

7. - (1) Subject to the following provisions of this section and to sections 8 and 9, an individual is entitled-

(a) to be informed by any data controller whether personal data of which that individual is the data subject are being processed by or on behalf of that data controller,
(b) if that is the case, to be given by the data controller a description of-
(i) the personal data of which that individual is the data subject,
(ii) the purposes for which they are being or are to be processed, and
(iii) the recipients or classes of recipients to whom they are or may be disclosed,
(c) to have communicated to him in an intelligible form-
(i) the information constituting any personal data of which that individual is the data subject, and
(ii) any information available to the data controller as to the source of those data, and
(d) where the processing by automatic means of personal data of which that individual is the data subject for the purpose of evaluating matters relating to him such as, for example, his performance at work, his creditworthiness, his reliability or his conduct, has constituted or is likely to constitute the sole basis for any decision significantly affecting him, to be informed by the data controller of the logic involved in that decision-taking.

I suggest you read the rest of the Act (located http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/a...8/19980029.htm)yourself and decide whether to mention this issue to Freeserve UK in any further communications with them.

[roadrunner_0]

give 'em hell NB3!

[Punch]

Originally posted by queball
?
Was that the maximum quotas of 10GB a month or so?

Yeah it was something like that until about 2 days after they had said that, when they changed to "recommened you don't go over the 10GB limit", after they had a barrage of complaints and legal action threatened against them.

[queball]

Originally posted by meglamaniac
Heh.
Inspect thier EULA/TOS - does it mention that you must use the freeserve mailservers or that they have any claim over data you send via their connection?

If not, please be advised:
Freeserve UK is in breach of the UK Data Protection Act 1998, specifically though not limited to Section 7, Clause 1:


I suggest you read the rest of the Act (located http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/a...8/19980029.htm)yourself and decide whether to mention this issue to Freeserve UK in any further communications with them.

The data goes through their servers anyway. I highly doubt the Act applies.

[meglamaniac]

Yeah, but they're redirecting a very specific connection type (there is no possible way they can claim they don't know what port 25 is used for).
They are purposefully rerouting people's mail - maybe they can get away with it while it works, but were anything to go wrong which caused a breach of privacy to a third party at thier server end there would be hell to pay from people who think they're using, say, a private mail server somewhere and are unknowingly being redirected.

To put it into a more physical sense, this is the equivilant of a private snailmail company altering a postcode reader at a Royal Mail sorting office so that mail would be delivered to THIER systems and then sent.
Obviously the above is illegal for reasons other than privacy, but it is every bit as objectionable as what freeserver are doing from a moral standpoint.

Plus they're in effect breaking the TCP/IP protocol by ignoring the packet's destination IP - they're playing wargames on thier own network with thier own customers.
I'm sure it's not just me who thinks this is not good practise.

[queball]

What ISP do you use, megla?

[Tactitus]

I know a lot of ISPs whose mail servers won't accept outbound mail from outside their respective networks, but this is the first time I've heard of anyone forcing all outbound mail to go through their mail server.

But in my experience, never argue with an ISP's tech support staff. If they can't understand/resolve your problem in 2 (or 3--tops) emails then just assume they're incompetent and get another ISP. Life is too short to spend it beating your head against a brick wall (unless you enjoy that sort of thing, of course).

[NEWSBOT3]

Originally posted by Tactitus
I know a lot of ISPs whose mail servers won't accept outbound mail from outside their respective networks, but this is the first time I've heard of anyone forcing all outbound mail to go through their mail server.

But in my experience, never argue with an ISP's tech support staff. If they can't understand/resolve your problem in 2 (or 3--tops) emails then just assume they're incompetent and get another ISP. Life is too short to spend it beating your head against a brick wall (unless you enjoy that sort of thing, of course).

the irony of this situation is that im cancelling in 20 days time to go to university for my final year..

anyway, i have now replied to this idiot.
(i used to work tech support, i swear i was never this bad)
and asked him to give me a straight answer and the relevant terms and conditions.

im not expecting either.
i have the freeserve complaints proceedure.
and the oftel details.

[Embroglio]

Heh I can laugh at you here and not get banned. :nv:


Edit: banning me now wouldn't be funny.

[Mushroom]

Originally posted by NEWSBOT3
and the oftel details.

I'm sure they'd gladly help if needed. Anything to get back at Freeserve for trying to damage their precious BT's image...

[Vaio]

I love the way the Freeserve monkey attempts to both educate and patronise and both fail as he has totally missed the important part of your email.

I bet BT Openworld love Freeserve as it looks like from your experience they really are the most retarded bunch of fukbunnies to ever man a helpdesk.

Try mentioning the Data Protection Act in your next email. It will be amusing to find out their response

Keep up the good work

Vaio

[Costa]

im confused

anyway

i would let you use my smtp service (its listening on ports 80 and 25)

but i cant as it requires authentication

Also please send a message to Freeserve saying that they

Please see my website for my opinions on spam blocklists

[queball]

Originally posted by Costa

Please see my website for my opinions on spam blocklists

Let me guess: the standard SA line?

[Costa]

Originally posted by queball
Let me guess: the standard SA line?

Pretty much, but personally i dont like people who are impossible to contact and are inconpetent.

So I dedicated a little bit of the internet to pissing them off

[MrBrick]

I now look forward to going back to my freeserve dialup, and repeating this email chain until they wake the fk up.

Fight the machine, NB3!

[meglamaniac]

Originally posted by queball
What ISP do you use, megla?

NTL.
Fortunately, I don't rely on their mail server (just as well as it's 50/50 as to whether it'll be working when you go to use it).

NTL have plenty of things wrong about them, but if they did that to me I'd tell them where to shove it by simply moving.

[Embroglio]

ALL HELL, CAN'T STOP HIM NOW

[queball]

Originally posted by meglamaniac
NTL.
Fortunately, I don't rely on their mail server (just as well as it's 50/50 as to whether it'll be working when you go to use it).

NTL have plenty of things wrong about them, but if they did that to me I'd tell them where to shove it by simply moving.

But what NTL do for HTTP isn't much different from what freeserve do for mail. :nv: Like you said, it might break how you expect TCP to work, but it's definitely standard practice. AOL have used proxies forever. Like I said, it all goes through their servers anyway. I doubt they log every mail coming through so I don't see why it's anything to do with privacy.

[W]

The quality of tech supporters vary within the company too. Try sending another mail without the tracking number (if they use an email system which tracks a thread) and previous history, perhaps you'll get lucky and get someone like me who will yell at the sysadms and managers until they stop being pricks.

I have colleagues using this exact tone and attitude. Well, one colleague atleast.

[W]

Originally posted by queball
But what NTL do for HTTP isn't much different from what freeserve do for mail. :nv: Like you said, it might break how you expect TCP to work, but it's definitely standard practice. AOL have used proxies forever. Like I said, it all goes through their servers anyway. I doubt they log every mail coming through so I don't see why it's anything to do with privacy.

There's a difference between caching non-dynamic inbound information, and manipulating directed outgoing personal data. There's a difference between data going trough their low-level servers, and being intepreted at a higher level.

That said, it's prolly legal, and they'll still lose customers over it, tho not enough to do something.

[Gayle29uk]

I presume this is the response from the email address I gave you

When I get home I can provide some telnet session logs to prove other ISPs do NOT do this if you like

[NEWSBOT3]

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
I presume this is the response from the email address I gave you

When I get home I can provide some telnet session logs to prove other ISPs do NOT do this if you like

sure

im gonna see what the gimp has replied this time, and then write to their complaints team, followed by oftel (since i suspect a breach in data protection act, and they should know better than me)