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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 11:31   #51
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gayle29uk
If you need them stopping that badly and that quickly then they're obviously going to do something so bad that you can't risk leaving them wounded and desperate, you kill them.
please listen very carefully.

You want them stopped and you want them stopped now. You'd like to have them alive afterwards, to avoid too many legal ramifications and to interrogate them. However, neither of these are crucial. You want to take them down, and you'd prefer they didn't die. So you shoot for the torso.

or

You want them stopped and you want them stopped now. You have absolutely no wiggle room, they have to go down, reliably, RIGHT NOW. so you shoot to kill, because there's no risk that they'll get up again.


These are not the same scenario.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 11:32   #52
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
Afaik it hasn't been confirmed that he actually were a terrorist. Maybe he just were in a hurry to reach the train? Last one seems unlikely though, but come on, I wouldn't run to catch the train in London nowadays, that's for sure.
they'd been tailing him in connection with the bombing. They'd been using twenty cops to do this. That's a lot of manpower for a "just in case".
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 11:34   #53
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
please listen very carefully.

You want them stopped and you want them stopped now. You'd like to have them alive afterwards, to avoid too many legal ramifications and to interrogate them. However, neither of these are crucial. You want to take them down, and you'd prefer they didn't die. So you shoot for the torso.
This is the problem, if you only want to stop them then you have no business using a gun to do it. If you shoot someone and there is no pressing need to kill them then you deserve to be in court charged with attempted murder/murder as appropriate.

Wanting someone stopped is not a good enough reason to use a gun.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 11:35   #54
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
Afaik it hasn't been confirmed that he actually were a terrorist. Maybe he just were in a hurry to reach the train? Last one seems unlikely though, but come on, I wouldn't run to catch the train in London nowadays, that's for sure.
One suspects that if the Met had just started a policy of shooting anyone running for a bus/train that we might have had more than death by now. You know, maybe.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 11:44   #55
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gayle29uk
This is the problem, if you only want to stop them then you have no business using a gun to do it. If you shoot someone and there is no pressing need to kill them then you deserve to be in court charged with attempted murder/murder as appropriate.

Wanting someone stopped is not a good enough reason to use a gun.
pedantry, you know what i meant by 'want'. it's the same context as 'i want to keep breathing' ; 'want them to be stopped' in this context means 'have a pressing need for them to be stopped', surely that's apparent.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 11:48   #56
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
pedantry, you know what i meant by 'want'. it's the same context as 'i want to keep breathing' ; 'want them to be stopped' in this context means 'have a pressing need for them to be stopped', surely that's apparent.
I don't think it's pedantic, I think it's a very real distinction at the heart of gun usage by both the armed forces and the police in Britain. If you don't need to kill someone then don't shoot them, it's part of what puts us a cut above most countries with regards to guns.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 13:24   #57
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Re: London today

I don't have a problem with them shooting the heads off suicide bombers but i also don't discount the possibility that this was a **** up by the met. Ill give them the benefit of the doubt until we find out more.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 13:44   #58
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
well earlier eyewitnesses were reporting wires trailing from his jacket, so if he wasn't covered in semtex he presumably looked like he was.
there would be some serious issues raised if this guy was running to cath the train he thought he might miss, had his I-Pod in so (hence the wires) couldn't hear the calls to stop and was brought down and shot five times.

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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 15:04   #59
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
Did you forget that this is GD, Yahwe?

Judgement is often passed before the truth is known.

Judgement is often adhered to even after the facts prove the original judgement false.

If this had happened in the United States, the GD population would have been all over it passing judgement like madmen at the Broadmoor.
I do love the way you twist everything into somehow demonstrating a slight on america

it's not self indulgent egocentric paranoia at all.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 15:37   #60
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
there would be some serious issues raised if this guy was running to cath the train he thought he might miss, had his I-Pod in so (hence the wires) couldn't hear the calls to stop and was brought down and shot five times.

because someone in a rush jumps over the ticket barriers.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 15:40   #61
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
because someone in a rush jumps over the ticket barriers.
Maybe he didnt have time to stop.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 16:47   #62
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
it's not self indulgent egocentric paranoia at all.
Good. My analyst was starting to get worried.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 17:23   #63
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Re: London today

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm

Quote:
Shot man 'unconnected' to bombing

A man shot dead by police as part of the inquiry into Thursday's attempted bomb attacks was unconnected to the incidents, police have confirmed.

A Scotland Yard statement said the shooting was a "tragedy" which was regretted by the Metropolitan Police.

The man was shot dead after police followed him from a south London flat to Stockwell Tube station on Friday.

Two other men have been arrested and are being questioned after bombers targeted three Tube trains and a bus.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 17:23   #64
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Re: London today

never mind, it was just the met ****ing it up again
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 19:22   #65
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Re: London today

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Originally Posted by Phang
In any event, I still think much higher of the UK police force than I do of the LAPD or the NYPD. :0
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 19:27   #66
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
In any event, I still think much higher of the UK police force than I do of the LAPD or the NYPD. :0
I do too. You've got be awful damn brave to go on a patrol without a firearm.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 19:42   #67
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Re: London today

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Originally Posted by Phang


reasonably amusing
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 19:56   #68
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Re: London today

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Originally Posted by Texan
I do too. You've got be awful damn brave to go on a patrol without a firearm.
Not to downplay the merits of our police force but we dont have 10 firearms to every member of population in this country....unlike some others I wont bother mentioning for fear of making certain people feel persecuted
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 20:24   #69
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Re: London today

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Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
Not to downplay the merits of our police force but we dont have 10 firearms to every member of population in this country....unlike some others I wont bother mentioning for fear of making certain people feel persecuted
I realize you don't have that many firearms, but there are knives, clubs, hockey sticks and apparently a few bombs as well.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 20:38   #70
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Re: London today

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Originally Posted by Texan
I realize you don't have that many firearms, but there are knives, clubs, hockey sticks and apparently a few bombs as well.

Pepperspray, tazers,good ol' nightsticks and tasty anti-stab armor even out those odds a little.



I realise I'm arguing for the sake of typing but I get bored so easily on these forums now.

Ninja.


/edit we've had the bombs for near 40 years now
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 21:01   #71
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
Pepperspray, tazers,good ol' nightsticks and tasty anti-stab armor even out those odds a little.

I realise I'm arguing for the sake of typing but I get bored so easily on these forums now.

Ninja.

/edit we've had the bombs for near 40 years now
Maybe you should take up a hobby like gun collecting, target shooting or hunting.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 22:58   #72
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
Maybe you should take up a hobby like gun collecting, target shooting or hunting.
Collecting guns and hunting police officers for target practice maybe?

I really should log out of Sars account sometime.

Ninja.
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Unread 23 Jul 2005, 23:32   #73
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
Collecting guns and hunting police officers for target practice maybe?

I really should log out of Sars account sometime.

Ninja.
I was thinking more along the lines of hunting suicide bombers. Why are you using Sar's account?
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 01:45   #74
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Arrow Re: London today

Sorry, but couldn't be bothered to read all of the thread, so I don't expect you to read my (maybe redundant) post, BUT:

In this case, when you're looking for a possible suspect that could blow up a bomb, you want to kill him QUICKLY. Otherwise -- knowing he gets caught or is already wounded -- he could still blow up the place.
That's why headshots.


Also, just what I read from the newspapers: When you ARE suspicious in some way, and then run away while police officers shout at you "stop or we'll shoot you", well...
Apparently, he had wires dangling from below his coat or something...


Whatever, I don't really have an opinion on it yet (if it was right or wrong to shoot him), just some points for you to think about....
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 03:20   #75
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
I was thinking more along the lines of hunting suicide bombers. Why are you using Sar's account?
Suicide bombers aren't that easy to catch. Before you know it they're blown away.

He's using my account because he's too lazy to log into his own. And also we tend to agree on most things so it's irrelevant whose account he uses.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 03:55   #76
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
You know, deep down I know you're right. But I just hate seeing a guy held down and shot dead. It just find it revolting, despite the fact that it may been good judgment and possibly saved many lives. I'm not saying it was the wrong choice, just a horrible thing altoghter.


of course it was horrible, but terrorism is horrible, if the choice was (admittedly possibly) to let him detonate a bomb in atube train, that the police made the right decision. Wether he was actually carrying a bomb or not became redundant the very second he started running.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 04:00   #77
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
please listen very carefully.

You want them stopped and you want them stopped now. You'd like to have them alive afterwards, to avoid too many legal ramifications and to interrogate them. However, neither of these are crucial. You want to take them down, and you'd prefer they didn't die. So you shoot for the torso.

you know that if you get shot in the torso that you are pretty ****ed and doomed to a slow death right?


there is no such thing as a wounding shot, you can get hit in the hand and go into shock and die.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 09:48   #78
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Re: London today

I'm surprised people are treating this as just 'another day another innocent civilian murdered by police'.

If your reasoning is that it's entirely his fault for running, well people react to threats in different ways. Infact his reaction seems more reasonable than simply stopping if you consider the 'fight or flight' model of survival. If I spotted 20 men running at me some armed with guns I might have done the same once the adrenaline started kicking in.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 11:43   #79
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Re: London today

He challenged police and refused to obey orders, before he was shot and killed in front of horrified commuters.
After the suicide bomb attacks in London on 7 July it is thought the Met's Anti-Terrorist Branch implemented its own pre-arranged response to suicide bombers, based on Acpo advice.
Codenamed Operation Kratos, and based on the experiences of the Israeli security forces, the guidance reportedly states that an officer can shoot a suspect in the head if it is thought he is a suicide bomber who poses an imminent danger to police or the public.
Eyewitnesses at Stockwell station on Friday said they saw police officers fire five shots into the head of the suspect.
If Operation Kratos is being used it would be the first time a shoot-to-kill police was officially allowed on British streets.
Former Scotland Yard commander Roy Ramm told the BBC: "Generally speaking police officers have been taught to aim at the largest target on the body which is the torso and that has worked well.
"People have died but others - robbers and drug dealers - have lived."
The problem with the police continuing with that strategy is that if a round enters the body of a suicide bomber it could detonate the charge, probably killing the person wearing it and the police officers and anyone else who is close to the suspect.
"That leaves no option for the police but to take head shots. Almost invariably a shot to the head will kill. In a sense it is a shoot-to-kill policy but by practice rather than design."

snipped from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711619.stm
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 11:51   #80
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Re: London today

Maybe he didn't speak English; he was Brazilian after all. If I was a foreigner stopped by 3 or 4 plained clothed English men I'd probably run if I didn't know what they were saying.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 12:18   #81
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by LHC
Maybe he didn't speak English; he was Brazilian after all. If I was a foreigner stopped by 3 or 4 plained clothed English men I'd probably run if I didn't know what they were saying.
He'd been living in London for the past 3 or 4 years and worked as an electrician, i'd hope that he could speak English.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 21:24   #82
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by arbondigo
He'd been living in London for the past 3 or 4 years and worked as an electrician, i'd hope that he could speak English.
I didn't know this, but it doesn't mean that he shouldn't have run from a group of men that could have easily have been random thugs.

If they wanted them to believe he was a cop, maybe they should have been in uniform.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 21:41   #83
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by LHC
I didn't know this, but it doesn't mean that he shouldn't have run from a group of men that could have easily have been random thugs.

If they wanted them to believe he was a cop, maybe they should have been in uniform.

Police officers wether in Uniform or out are "advised" to identify themselves prior to discharging a firearm.

ie: "Stop ! Armed Police !" is the norm not the exception.

They (the Police) are not obliged to call out any warning if they believe there is an imminent threat or that there is immediate danger to themselves or a member of the public.

Now obviously we are not aware if a warning was given, but I strongly suspect it was reading the accounts in the press and on the internet, considering it was a chase over some distance?

In any event, the police officer(s) involved should they have been under the impression that there was a real and present danger at the time they shot him, could be (and probably would be) deemed to have acted within the guidlines.

Should an investigation of the events reveal otherwise, the officer(s) in question will no doubt face prosecution. (and yes it does happen in the UK)

Last edited by Judge; 24 Jul 2005 at 22:04.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 21:43   #84
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Re: London today

I've not fully read this thread so correct me if I'm wrong, but they were plain clothed officers, with guns, shouting at someone to stop. I think I'd be running. Also, if I was a criminal I'd be chasing people in London, shouting "Stop, Police, Plain Clothed etc" and then mug the poor git.

Edit: The abov was written before I'd read the post above.
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 21:59   #85
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Re: London today

there were uniformed ones there as well i read
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Unread 24 Jul 2005, 23:01   #86
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Re: London today

snipped from http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...704794,00.html
“I hope that if evil days should come upon our own country, and the last army which a collapsing Empire could interpose between London and the invader were dissolving in rout and ruin, that there would be some . . . who would not care to accustom themselves to a new order of things and tamely survive the disaster.”
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 00:24   #87
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Re: London today

Speaking to some Londoners yesterday I get the impression that peoplehave been more affected by an innocent being shot by the police than by the bombings themselves.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 01:09   #88
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Re: London today

HE

RAN

FROM

THE

POLICE

HE

DESERVED

IT

GOOD

!



P.S. You know alot of "bleeding heart whiny liberals" Ste.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 09:58   #89
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Re: London today

i still say anyone stupid enough to run away (its not like he just ran a little bit either, vaulting the ticket things, etc) had something to hide and quite possibly deserved to be shot
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 10:04   #90
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Re: London today

the question has to be asked if the situation had been exactly the same, if he was white would they have shot him? Hell, if he was white would they have even followed him?
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 10:12   #91
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
the question has to be asked if the situation had been exactly the same, if he was white would they have shot him? Hell, if he was white would they have even followed him?
probably not. why would they? While it sounds like racism to suggest the police would not shoot a white guy, it is not really. It is known that these terrorists are muslim, which mainly includes asian and arabic looking people from countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. so while "the question has to be asked" it is a pretty stupid question. What would be their justification for shooting anyone else?
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 10:13   #92
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
the question has to be asked if the situation had been exactly the same, if he was white would they have shot him? Hell, if he was white would they have even followed him?
Probably not, although the Met have shot white people unnecessarily before. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3752656.stm etc.

edit : It's also worth noting that in one study I recall (no source admittedly) the stop and search rate was higher amongst white "Irish" Londoners than among Afro-Carribeans.

Last edited by Dante Hicks; 25 Jul 2005 at 10:56.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 10:15   #93
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Re: London today

I was wondering yesterday, how many people have the met shot who actually needed shooting. I wonder what their ratios of successful killings to erronous killings are.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 11:30   #94
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace

P.S. You know alot of "bleeding heart whiny liberals" Ste.
Yes... yes i do.

another article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlo...535611,00.html

Quote:
The unanswered questions are numerous. Was it a system failure or an individual at fault? It is usually the former. How good was the intelligence and the analysis that the officers carrying out the surveillance were receiving? How many people who left the flats were also followed? Why was Mr De Menezes suspected, apart from an inappropriate winter coat, which could have been hiding explosive materials round his waist or chest? If the police were worried by a possible bomb attack on the tube, why were they not equally perturbed by one on the bus? On what grounds - and by whom - were the officers following Mr Menezes given the green light to proceed as though he was a terrorist? In precisely what form did the plain-clothes police officers identify themselves as police officers? Could they have been mistaken by Mr De Menezes for terrorists? The tube station's cameras may provide some answers to the last two questions.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 11:43   #95
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
probably not. why would they? While it sounds like racism to suggest the police would not shoot a white guy, it is not really. It is known that these terrorists are muslim, which mainly includes asian and arabic looking people from countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. so while "the question has to be asked" it is a pretty stupid question. What would be their justification for shooting anyone else?
this then raises the question, should the police initiate racial profiling? Surely if white people are not suspects then it would be statistically more likely to find a terrorist by targeting those who appear to be from the midde east.

Edit: Apparently his UK visa had expiredand that is a posible reason why he run. It didn't say how long ago though. It woud also explain why he was acting 'suspiciously'.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 12:02   #96
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Re: London today

In most civilised countries armed enforcers (be it police or military) are trained to identify a target as a threat before they shoot, I see no evidence of this in any of the reportings.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 12:03   #97
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
this then raises the question, should the police initiate racial profiling? Surely if white people are not suspects then it would be statistically more likely to find a terrorist by targeting those who appear to be from the midde east.
don't you think that's what they are doing? note the recent reports suggesting that two of the suicide bombers were on a whitewater rafting trip in wales, and another boat with asians who were there on that day is being investigated. I doubt the police are in the least bit bothered about the hundreds of white people who went rafting that day (except maybe witnesses)
Quote:
Edit: Apparently his UK visa had expiredand that is a posible reason why he run. It didn't say how long ago though. It woud also explain why he was acting 'suspiciously'.
well then that is unfortunate for him. still the words "armed police, stop" (assuming that is what was said - apparently he did not obey instructions) should not really trigger such a reaction. it's not often that the visa departnemt guns people down for overstaying their welcome.

incidentally, sorry for saying "stupid question" it was a bit excessive of me. I just don't think it was a good question to ask.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 12:16   #98
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
well then that is unfortunate for him. still the words "armed police, stop" (assuming that is what was said - apparently he did not obey instructions) should not really trigger such a reaction. it's not often that the visa departnemt guns people down for overstaying their welcome.
Yeah the problem is that if the police stop you for any reason there's a chance you could be caught for anything else too. My initial thought might be that he had a couple of grams of coke on his person or something like that. Sure, it's unlikely that the Drugs Squad would gun you down but if the Anti-Terrorism cops stop and search you it's not like they'd ignore other crimes/offences you might be committing. Going to prison for 6 months or being deported is certainly better than being shot in the head, but neither is desirable and so running away is still understandable.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 12:18   #99
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
don't you think that's what they are doing? note the recent reports suggesting that two of the suicide bombers were on a whitewater rafting trip in wales, and another boat with asians who were there on that day is being investigated. I doubt the police are in the least bit bothered about the hundreds of white people who went rafting that day (except maybe witnesses)
I'm talking in a more general sense. In America for example on after the first London bombings they started random bag searches on the subway.

Now, is it right that they carry out random searches or should they impliment racial profiling and only search those who look like they may be a terrorist as they are statistically more likely to be a terrorist.

It then becomes a civil liberties issue. Should people who have no connection whatsoever to terrorists be treated as terrorists just because they have the same skin colour?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
well then that is unfortunate for him. still the words "armed police, stop" (assuming that is what was said - apparently he did not obey instructions) should not really trigger such a reaction. it's not often that the visa departnemt guns people down for overstaying their welcome.
Whether they said 'armed police, stop' or 'police, stop' would make a difference in his reaction. Given our countries attitude towards illegeal immigrants, you can never be too sure.
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Unread 25 Jul 2005, 12:21   #100
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Re: London today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Yeah the problem is that if the police stop you for any reason there's a chance you could be caught for anything else too. My initial thought might be that he had a couple of grams of coke on his person or something like that. Sure, it's unlikely that the Drugs Squad would gun you down but if the Anti-Terrorism cops stop and search you it's not like they'd ignore other crimes/offences you might be committing. Going to prison for 6 months or being deported is certainly better than being shot in the head, but neither is desirable and so running away is still understandable.
I agree, but then having run away, I can see why the police would then shoot him.
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