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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 16:09   #1
SYMM
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Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

...well, no. But Mr Davis wants to it seems.
Is such an extreme statement a good idea, even if it is just his personal view?
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 17:13   #2
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

It's a pretty dumb thing to say, especially since it would be against European law, therefore impossible to do.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 17:19   #3
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

unless ofc that one pulled out of the european consitution,

which as it was never formally agreed with the country via a referendum, could be done quite easily

PS - death penatly is a good idea
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 17:22   #4
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

No it isn't.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 17:27   #5
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Death Penalty is bad man

(and it goes against the European Convention of Human Rights)
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 17:28   #6
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Wasn't Minority Report about the death penalty, or am I reading too much into it?
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 17:41   #7
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

the death penalty is a fantastic idea, I thoroughly approve, since the justice system is perfect.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 17:45   #8
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Exclamation Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

It's his own personal view, and therefore it is pretty stupid to voice it when you are Shadow Home Secretary, especially when you're trying to shake off the image of being a bunch of right-wing nutters, and being a plausible party.

It would never happen, anyway. It would be far too big a step. Whether backwards or forwards, depending on your point of view, is irrelevant; it would still be too big a change. As has been mentioned, it goes against a whole host of European (and international, I believe.) props that Britian is involved with.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 17:47   #9
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

as long as it doesnt take me i dont care
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 18:56   #10
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
the death penalty is a fantastic idea, I thoroughly approve, since the justice system is perfect.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 18:56   #11
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Wasn't Minority Report about the death penalty, or am I reading too much into it?
Minority report was about 'catching' and convicting/punishing people for crimes that they would, but hadnt yet comitted.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 18:57   #12
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Exclamation Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LHC
as long as it doesnt take me i dont care
Davis wants you for his supper.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 19:08   #13
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
Minority report was about 'catching' and convicting/punishing people for crimes that they would, but hadnt yet comitted.
Yes, I KNOW THE PLOT.

The death penalty assumes absolute certainty, with no appeal allowed.

Similarity++
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 19:11   #14
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Exclamation Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

You get dat Pm box sorted MrL.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 19:18   #15
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

the fact that it's against euro law kinda works in it's favor actually.

it changes the topic from the death penalty (which i'm of the impression brits are against) to an oppurtunity to piss off the euros.

suddenly it becomes 'do you want the french telling us what we can and cannot do?', and no matter what any of you think on this issue i'm pretty sure the older generation of brits aren't in love with the EU etc
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 19:22   #16
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Exclamation Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
the fact that it's against euro law kinda works in it's favor actually.
Not really, since it is deep rooted in the whole European political-legal status quo.

Which effectively reduces it to a 'Get out of Europe' position, really, which, coming from Davis, is unsurprising, and is not somehing that Tories are ever going to commit to, no matter how much some of them want it. (The Membership overwhelmingly so.)
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 19:24   #17
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Not really, since it is deep rooted in the whole European political-legal status quo.

Which effectively reduces it to a 'Get out of Europe' position, really, which, coming from Davis, is unsurprising.
i meant 'works in it's favor' in terms of getting public support, not in terms of actually getting put into effect.

when are the next round of elections anyway?
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 19:29   #18
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Exclamation Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
i meant 'works in it's favor' in terms of getting public support, not in terms of actually getting put into effect.
It probably does more harm than good actually, since, even if you actually support it's re-introduction in The UK, you are aware that it is a terribly reactionary position to take. That alone will probably scare off a lot of people; you have to palce this in the context of the overtones it conveys.

It's an especially big gaffe because the Tories are attempting to remodel themselves as not extreme-right at the moment, and this, needless to say, doesn't do a whole lot of good towards that.

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when are the next round of elections anyway?
2006 at the latest, although it could be anytime before then should Tone desire it.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 19:31   #19
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Yes, I KNOW THE PLOT.

The death penalty assumes absolute certainty, with no appeal allowed.

Similarity++
well not much similarity really. the precogs, even with mistakes, reduced the crime rate to virtually 0. and you can appeal a death sentence.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 19:34   #20
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

I have my doubts as to whether a judge would sentence anyone to the death penalty in any case given the opportunity from a statute considering a court has to act in respect of human rights anyway.

Davis is stating his own personal opinion, but he's an idiot - hope Howard hits him with a stick.

As mentioned in an earlier thread - bombing Benidorm/Magaluf/Balearic islands/Faliraki in high season will be far more beneficial to reducing crime and disorder.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 19:38   #21
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Exclamation Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I have my doubts as to whether a judge would sentence anyone to the death penalty in any case given the opportunity from a statute considering a court has to act in respect of human rights anyway.
Well, if this ever were implemented, it would require the revocation of most of that Human Rights legislation, so the issue is moot.

The notion of judical culture probably being opposed to the idea of actually sentencing anyone to death is a pertinent point, though. Generally, many judges are opposed to the idea of overly-harsh or illogical and populist sentences anyway; the idea of actually knocking someone off would be a total anathema to them.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 20:01   #22
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by Radical Edward
well not much similarity really. the precogs, even with mistakes, reduced the crime rate to virtually 0. and you can appeal a death sentence.
Not after it's been performed.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 20:34   #23
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Well, if this ever were implemented, it would require the revocation of most of that Human Rights legislation, so the issue is moot.

The notion of judical culture probably being opposed to the idea of actually sentencing anyone to death is a pertinent point, though. Generally, many judges are opposed to the idea of overly-harsh or illogical and populist sentences anyway; the idea of actually knocking someone off would be a total anathema to them.
Repealing the Human Rights Act now we have it would be political suicide, I doubt people would stand for it. So it seems pretty clear that Davis is a moron who is there because the ultra right wingers like him.

Even without the HRA, I'd agree and hope that judges would probably try to circumvent such a backward step in sentencing such as the death sentence in the interests of justice or whatever they choose to call it.

Nice use of the complicated words btw!
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 21:02   #24
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

The majority of British people, I'd imagine, would support the death penalty in some circumstances.

However, for given reasons it's unlikely to be introduced. I don't think saying that serial killers (etc) should be executed is dangerously out of synch with British opinion though.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 21:04   #25
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

String em up, guv. Death's too good for em.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 21:18   #26
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmulian
PS - death penatly is a good idea


No it isn't.

It is my understanding that committing someone to death is more expensive that imprisoning them for life (once the cost of the series of appeals is taken into account ... in the US and what i've heard anyway).

So from a purely financial point of view the death sentence makes no sense.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 21:26   #27
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

If we just lined them up and fired a few rounds into them without allowing an appeal it would be greatly cheaper.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 21:29   #28
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Exclamation Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LHC
If we just lined them up and fired a few rounds into them without allowing an appeal it would be greatly cheaper.
That's what I told JJ, but he wouldn't listen.
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Unread 16 Nov 2003, 21:30   #29
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by LHC
without allowing an appeal


Wouldn't happen (i dont think so anyway).
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 00:03   #30
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by lokken
Repealing the Human Rights Act now we have it would be political suicide, I doubt people would stand for it. So it seems pretty clear that Davis is a moron who is there because the ultra right wingers like him.
Not if the gain (restoring the death penalty) outweighs loss from repealing the Human Rights Act. Besides which, it doesn't have to be repealed, it could just be ammended.
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 00:08   #31
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

people who dont value human life suck dude
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 00:20   #32
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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people who dont value human life suck dude
Who say's pro-death penalty people don't?
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 10:43   #33
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmulian
PS - death penatly is a good idea
If your idea of justice is based on getting revenge, then yes. Otherwise no, the death penalty has no preventive effect anyway and it leaves no room for mistakes (but of course the British legal system doesn't make mistakes ).
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 11:23   #34
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by evil one
Otherwise no, the death penalty has no preventive effect anyway
People who are dead are statistically less likely to re-offend.
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 11:27   #35
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
The real problem with the death penalty as best shown by krystof Kieslowski in A short film about killing, is not that you might kill innocent people, but that the state coldly and calculatingly killing someone (even a murderer) is as bad and as tragic as the most cold and brutal murder.
no, its even worse, because it means that killing someone is acceptable within the society. a state cant promote the value of human life if it kills people at the same time.
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 11:27   #36
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
People who are dead are statistically less likely to re-offend.
So are people in prison.

So are people who have had all their limbs cut off.
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 11:29   #37
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
the state coldly and calculatingly killing someone (even a murderer) is as bad and as tragic as the most cold and brutal murder.
I disagree. If Person A kills Person B's children, then Person B killing Person A in retaliation (say years later, when immediate emotion has dispersed) then while we may disapprove, I'd hardly say that it was "as bad" as the original act. The state is not "special" in some sense.
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 11:30   #38
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
So are people in prison.
People who are sent to prison are probably less likely to reoffend, but not dramatically so, since even with life sentences, there are numerous crimes comitted in prison (rape, assault, robbery, etc).
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 11:37   #39
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
no, its even worse, because it means that killing someone is acceptable within the society.
This is dumb. So prison means that it's acceptable to kidnap people, handcuff them and then lock them in a metal room for 30-40 years? Because if so, there's this cute girl who get's on my train in the morning, and hand-cuffs are so reasonable these days...
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 11:43   #40
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
no, its even worse, because it means that killing someone is acceptable within the society. a state cant promote the value of human life if it kills people at the same time.
How exactly does a state promote the value of human life?
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 11:44   #41
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
This is dumb. So prison means that it's acceptable to kidnap people, handcuff them and then lock them in a metal room for 30-40 years? Because if so, there's this cute girl who get's on my train in the morning, and hand-cuffs are so reasonable these days...
you have to do something about criminals though, you cant just lets them run around free and id rather have them send to prison than just kill them. that way the state shows how much it values human life and that is just as important as punishing the criminal.
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 11:47   #42
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Cold calculated murder is cold calculating murder. doesn't matter who does it Furthermore your reasoning is faulty, clealry if I killed the murderer of my child, I would feel justified, however the state has no interest it has no emotion about the subject, so if the state kills someone it is a cold and calculated act of murder.
This is the problem with an unchanging law, with fixed punishement, that judges the criminality of an act on what is performed, not why.
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 11:49   #43
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by wu_trax
you have to do something about criminals though, you cant just lets them run around free and id rather have them send to prison than just kill them. that way the state shows how much it values human life and that is just as important as punishing the criminal.
Someone on another forum I post at has the idea that violent criminals (ie ones pro-death penalty people normally support killing) should be given some anaesthetic that renders them unconscious indefinitely, and left in a warehouse until they die from old age or whatever. Obviously if they are proven innocent they can be revived at a later date, and you can avoid all the problems caused by imprisonment.
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 11:50   #44
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Cold calculated murder is cold calculating murder. doesn't matter who does it
lol moral relativism lol

An action has no moral value whatsoever out of contex,t and devoid of the motivations behind it. You cant just say "hay you killed someone and he killed someone, therefore your actions are equal despite the completely different situations!!".
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 11:55   #45
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Depriving humans of their rights of movement is a terrible crime against their basic rights, and noone should ever be locked up. And you jsut can't give someone their time back, if they're later found innocent, the time they've spendt in jail is lost forever.
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 11:58   #46
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by W
Depriving humans of their rights of movement is a terrible crime against their basic rights, and noone should ever be locked up. And you jsut can't give someone their time back, if they're later found innocent, the time they've spendt in jail is lost forever.
But you dont believe in basic rights
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 12:04   #47
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Cold calculated murder is cold calculating murder. doesn't matter who does it Furthermore your reasoning is faulty, clealry if I killed the murderer of my child, I would feel justified, however the state has no interest it has no emotion about the subject, so if the state kills someone it is a cold and calculated act of murder.
What's the difference between murder and killing?

A murder is something the state disaproves of.

So how can the death penalty be murder?

Yes, I support cold blooded killing, in many situations. I'm a soldier after all. I've no problem with the death penalty.
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 12:05   #48
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Exclamation Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by W
A murder is something the state disaproves of.
lol Actually, it has a particular legal definition lol.
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 12:06   #49
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

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Originally Posted by W
I'm a soldier after all. I've no problem with the death penalty.
You would if it was wrongly used to sentence YOU!
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 12:10   #50
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Re: Tories to re-introduce Death-penalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
lol Actually, it has a particular legal definition lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Edward Coke
Murder is when a man of sound memory, and of the age of discretion, unlawfully killeth within any country of the realm any reasonable creature in rerum natura under the King's peace, with malice aforethought, either expressed by the party or implied by law, so as the party wounded, or hurt, etc. die of the wound or hurt, etc. within a year and a day after the same.
The law no longer requires that death occur within a year and a day though.
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rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets. Relaxen und vatch
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