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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 04:29   #1
Furyous
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Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

I’m not interested in a prolonged discussion of the history of the support planet rules: Personally I’ve always considered them a rather less than satisfactory and/or unnecessary addition to the game rules. Nor am I concerned with a discussion of whether or not we ought to have support planet rules. Nontheless, the five or so people who might have actually read the EULA when signing up this round will have noticed that support planet restrictions are very much in place:

18.2. Multiple Accounts / Account Sharing / Support Accounts:
Multi-ing, Account Sharing and Support Accounts are not allowed. The
definitions are, but are not limited to:

(f) Support Accounts are accounts which are dedicated to undertaking specific
and repeated actions which result in an unfair benefit for a
planet/organisation, where an organisation is defined as an alliance or galaxy.


As many will be aware, the renewal of cluster attack bonuses and increase in defence bonuses in Round 20 brought about an extra dimension to the style of play that made the identification of support planets potentially much more difficult for the MH team. As such, the then head of MH declared that the support planet rule would not be enforced against alliances unless or until it was clear that alliances were abusing the rules in a significant manner. And in round 20 this policy was successful: As far as I am aware, no alliance exceeded the tag limit in member numbers in any significant manner.

The reason for posting this is that despite a number of requests and questions to the current MH team and indeed other members of the PA Team over a number of days, there has been no clarification whatsoever as to whether they intend to enforce support planet rules in respect to alliances, whether they intend not to enforce them at all or whether they are going to take the same stance as in round 20.

With a set alliance limit of 70, even the most dim witted of individuals would realise that it is critical for alliances to know exactly how many people they can take in without breaking the game rules. If they stick strictly below 70 and MH do nothing at all about support planet rule breaches then other alliances can (and in round 21, will) have a significant advantage in attacking force, cluster defence, and custom made out of tag universe defence planets. If they recruit over the 70 limit to enjoy these benefits but then MH do decide to enforce the support planet rules, then they’d end up having their planets closed and alliance significantly damaged.

My question to the PA crew and MH is this: IF you find that an alliance is clearly gaining an unfair advantage from planets(beyond the 70 tag limit) which are undertaking specific and repeated actions (defences out of cluster and joint attacks), will action (both warnings and account closure) be taken against those planets and organisations (as it is identified as cheating in the EULA)? Or will this clause of the EULA not be enforced under any circumstances?
Or in layman’s terms: Will planets be closed if alliances recruit and use up to 100 or more planets in a game where you’re supposed to have only 70?

I suspect the reason why an answer has thus far been lacking is that MH do not wish to upset either those alliances which have recruited well beyond the tag limit or alliances which have diligently recruited only within the tag limit. In effect, they are sitting on the fence, and hope that everyone remains pacified. However, the absence of such a simple clarification, in a game that is a commercial enterprise and charged, is entirely unacceptable and unprofessional.

Note: My interest in this subject is clearly determined by my role in Planetarion, and of course I have my partisan preference as to what I would like the policy to be. But this post is not intended as a means to push for one policy over the other. It is merely to demonstrate the incredible lack of clarity, and to push for an answer as to whether and how the MH intend to enforce the support planet rule in Round 21 of Planetarion. It’s unfair to everyone concerned to remain entirely non committal on the issue. And it’s critical that an answer is forthcoming very soon.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 04:59   #2
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

umm im confused by what you are even saying

you are allowed to recuit over the limit of 70

its just that only the top 70 scores of the alliance will be counted towards teh alliance score

the limit of 70 people in an alliance and the whole support planet thing have nothing to do with eachother afaik.

im really interested to know exactly where this is going, so please clarify a little more
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 05:06   #3
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorraj
you are allowed to recuit over the limit of 70

its just that only the top 70 scores of the alliance will be counted towards teh alliance score
the alliance limit is there , and because it exists it means you CANNOT have MORE than 70 players. If they intended for an alliance to have more, there would be no member limit in place

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorraj
the limit of 70 people in an alliance and the whole support planet thing have nothing to do with eachother afaik.
how can you possibly be that clueless..... the limit of 70 people in an alliance has EVERYTHING to do the support planet enforcement, especially when we're talking about a large amount of planets over 70... those planets would be support planets as defined in the EULA

(f) Support Accounts are accounts which are dedicated to undertaking specific
and repeated actions which result in an unfair benefit for a
planet/organisation, where an organisation is defined as an alliance or galaxy.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 05:24   #4
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

I do apologise dorraj, inflicting confusion upon people is a terrible thing.

The primary purpose of tag limits is to create a fair playing field for alliances on which to compete.

Support planet rules were brought in round 16 precisely because a certain alliance used a large number of out-of-tag dedicated defence planets solely to support its in tag planets. This caused a great deal of controversy about alliances acting out of the spirit of the tag limits and it was deemed necessary to disallow alliances from having any planets which exceeded the existing tag limit. I think in round 17 it was decided that even your scanners must be counted in your member count and your member count cannot exceed the tag limits.

With this in mind, according to the EULA, you ARE NOT allowed to recruit beyond the 70 tag limit. My question is whether or not MH intend to enforce this should it be evident that any alliances are obviously ‘using’ more than 70 members in order to pick the biggest to go in their tag and then provide extra defence and attack power using the remainder of its members.

If they don’t intend to enforce this rule, fine. But they must at least make that clear to everyone.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 06:42   #5
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

If its in the eula it should either be enforced to the letter, or the eula amended ( and everyone notified that they are doing it ) accordingly.

Since the rule is currently in place, any alliance who currently has more then 70 planets is breaking / has broken the user agreement and is subject to punishment as determined by the MH/Pateam

If these 'extras' are spun off into a seperate, independant alliance with its own command, defence structures, etc then fair enough.
In such an event its reasonable to say that they can form a NAP between the parts. If they are allowed to attack together / defend together is for mh/pateam to say.

Personally i dont mind the attacking together so much so long as its not one being used for flak/defence soaking most of the time or always aiming for the one alliance together all the time - but defending each other is unacceptable to me.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 08:29   #6
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

I think its worth remembering the word dedicated in the eula. For a planet to be classed as a support planet for an alliance it not only needs to undertake repeated actions e.g. out of cluster defence, but this also needs to be its reason for existing i.e. it will sacrifice its own success to make its mother alliance succeed. Now this could well be the case as the alliance would have put its best planets in the tag, and as such the others would be merely there to support with defence etc. BUT it might not be.

What would happen if an alliance decided to have an A and B team. We have seen this in real life examples. Take formula 1. there is red bull racing and squadro torro rosso. Clealry there is some collaborative design effort between the teams and financial support. But the "members" (car parts, team members) are different, and when on the track they do race each other. Sure they probabaly put some effort into not crashing into each other (i.e. in pa sense not purposefully attacking each other), but they do compete.

Certainly the eula does not forbid an alliance splitting in two - though careful attention would need to be paid by the mh team to make sure that one alliance did not become a dedicated support alliance.


****Note I do not know if the rule is being enforced or whether it will be removed, this post is a purely personal view on a possible way alliances could work with the limit within the rules.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 08:37   #7
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

This has to be the shittiest rule ever created for planetarion.
Is this a war game or a kindergarden?

If some people want to run a planet for defence of their alliance only, that's up to them, who the **** are you people to tell them how to play the game?.

No wonder why pa has been circling the toilet for years, its turning into Pokemon online, without the fighting..
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 08:41   #8
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allfather
If some people want to run a planet for defence of their alliance only, that's up to them
Sure it is, and they should be part of that alliances tag if thats the case - not part of some extras in addition to the limit for the tag.

You cant have your cake, and eat it.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 08:45   #9
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Kal your example does rather sum up the way Fury and Wrath operated. However, at that time neither alliance had official limits. If an alliance were to split into two alliances with separate channels, commands, forums, tools, officers and independant political autonomy then fine. But that's not what we're discussing here.

We're discussing whether the MH will punish an alliance that, for example, has 125 members, none (or very few) of which are allowed to join another tag. With that 125 the alliance can attack and interdefend in totality. And then when they need to tag can pick and choose the best/biggest members in order to maximise the tag value, and use the remaining out of tag members as dedicated attack and defence support planets to maintain those members in the tag.

On the word dedicated: I think it was in round 18 or so that it was determined that any single planet that is not within the tag member limit and whose operation is determined by and in accordance with alliance policy and goals, then it is dedicated to the support of an alliance which is already full. The primary function of that planet is irrelevant, as is whether it would suicide itself.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 08:48   #10
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

125 members for one specific alliance is rediculous and a blatant breach of both the wording and spirit of the support planet rule AND the alliance tag limit, in addition to any intentions about playing this round fairly.
If this is an accurate total for the members this alliance has, then pateam should act within 48-72 hours to combat this deliberate attempt.

Which alliance is it, and do their HC plan to (publically) justify + apologise for their decision?
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 09:09   #11
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

I think the justification, if it comes, will take the form of "we didn't read the EULA". I don't know whether any alliances that might have recruited to such a level would have any intention of apologising.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 09:17   #12
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

I am of the firm belief that no current PA alliance has more *planets* than are allowed yet. There are some that think they might end up that way and they are now aware of what the current EULA states.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 09:27   #13
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Well they certainly have LOTS more members than they are allowed *planets*. So they must have more *planets* than they are allowed unless of course you are suggesting they're account sharing - in which case you should close them now for breaking a different rule.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 09:32   #14
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
Well they certainly have LOTS more members than they are allowed *planets*. So they either do have more *planets* than they are allowed, or they're account sharing on a massive scale. Which is it to be?
Or the members do not yet have signed up planets, or the planets are signed up but the hc has no knowledge of them in their tools yet.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 09:35   #15
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Nice thread, the rule and alliance limit certainly are lead ad absurdum once again. With clusters you can easily organize your alliance in a way that only the best planets across all your clusters are in your tag, while the other planets are part of those planets cluster alliances. Good game PA Team.

Please reconsider jesterina's suggestions for implementing in round 22 to stop such shitty and unclear discussion.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 09:40   #16
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Kal, it doesn't matter whether Wolfpack have collected all their coordinates or whether all their 120+ members have signed up. Or indeed any other alliance that has more members than it is allowed planets. I just want the answer:

If an alliance does have more than 70 planets attacking and defending in a cooperative effort with the ultimate aim of maximising that alliance's tag value, will that alliance be discplined and planets closed by MH?

Or will you not be enforcing the rules to which every player has thus far signed up, and a significant number made payment on the basis of?
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 09:42   #17
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Or the members do not yet have signed up planets, or the planets are signed up but the hc has no knowledge of them in their tools yet.
AWESOME! So ignorance is an excuse for breaking the rules? I've never read that EULA thing but I do know that farming and multiing are wrong. Surely I'll be forgiven for anything else I do though? I don't even have a tool for checking if I've ****ed up or anything

As an aside, this rule is never going to be fully enforcable and encourages duplicitous evasion. Abolish it and let whoever wants it the most win however they can.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 09:52   #18
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Sure it is, and they should be part of that alliances tag if thats the case - not part of some extras in addition to the limit for the tag.

You cant have your cake, and eat it.

What is this, the rebirth of hitlers germany?
You cant defend people your not in alliance with ingame?
As i said before, is this a wargame or pokemon online?
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 09:55   #19
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Allfather, as I stated in the first post, we are not debating whether the rules are right or wrong. Simply whether PA crew are going to enforce them.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 10:02   #20
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
AWESOME! So ignorance is an excuse for breaking the rules? I've never read that EULA thing but I do know that farming and multiing are wrong. Surely I'll be forgiven for anything else I do though? I don't even have a tool for checking if I've ****ed up or anything

As an aside, this rule is never going to be fully enforcable and encourages duplicitous evasion. Abolish it and let whoever wants it the most win however they can.
if the hc has no knowledge then by defintion there cannot currently be alliance coordinated support planets can there...
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 10:04   #21
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Would you answer my question above please Kal.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 10:05   #22
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

ye understand what you mean now

you were talking about extra people out if the tag

im just getting 2 different matters confused

that is the matter of support planets and the matter of how many people's in tag scores count towards the alliance score

i completely understand now

forget i ever said anything, lol!
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 10:09   #23
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

what was confusing me was when you said "recruit" that just automatically made me think that those people were in tag, and that you could recruit over 70 but their scores didn't count unless they were in the top 70 of the alliance

but you were talking about out of tag support planets

which i think are wrong because it states that they aren't allowed to in the rules any person found to be running a support planet on behalf of their alliance should have their planet and their support planet closed.

better?

am i on the same line of thought?
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 10:12   #24
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

you are indeed Dorraj. And all I'm asking is whether they intend to uphold the rules.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 10:22   #25
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
Kal, it doesn't matter whether Wolfpack have collected all their coordinates or whether all their 120+ members have signed up. Or indeed any other alliance that has more members than it is allowed planets. I just want the answer:

If an alliance does have more than 70 planets attacking and defending in a cooperative effort with the ultimate aim of maximising that alliance's tag value, will that alliance be discplined and planets closed by MH?

Or will you not be enforcing the rules to which every player has thus far signed up, and a significant number made payment on the basis of?
Two things to say here:

1) multiple alliances have been accused of this not just one.
2) A decision will be made on whether to amend the rule, whether to enforce it and how to enforce it in the near future by Fiery. But its currently 4am her time, so I wouldn't expect to hear anything that soon.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 10:23   #26
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

well they had better up hold it or i will have something to say about it and im sure a lot of others will too.

its an unfair advantage on those that actually follow the rules, and rule breakers as far as im concerned should be punished. whether that is hc's of an alliance for coordinating it, or whether its just an alliance member for initiating it himself
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 10:28   #27
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

It would lead to blocking, because while some of the most popular alliances would have a very large memberbase between tags the smaller alliances would honestly need to block up to meet the numbers they face.

We don't really have the large numbers like the old days :/.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 10:32   #28
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Shut up, it'll be awesome.

Or at least different.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 10:33   #29
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Prolly I'm for blocking anyway but...
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 10:51   #30
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

The previous cases, notably VGN's defence of Exilition planets in a previous round lead me to this conclusion. And by no means, is this necessarily an official position.

1. Blocking is not against the rules and is considered part and parcel of alliance play.

2. A single defence by one alliance of a planet of one of its allies is not support, because it is simply one action.

3. Repeated defences would presumably have to be recorded by the MH and if you push them enough and do it enough, you should be deleted, but i'm not sure at all how they can handle the logistics of this.

4. Attacks is dodgy ground. If you attack together on a planet with viable roiding fleets, this should never be cheating. If you escort, that's a different matter but it's very hard to define or spot or tell when exactly cooperation becomes escorting. Then again if you limit attacking you are asking for trouble in a war game.

As you can see there are various shades of grey in the support planet rule, which is why I've always opposed it because in my opinion, either you are cheating, or you aren't. It seems that at the moment the MH have to pushed far enough by an indeterminate (not infinite) number of what i've described above to delete, which in my opinion isn't really satisfactory. The options are either its complete removal and total freedom for planets or a coded system to properly enforce this (this would be effective but boring).

In my opinion freedom is the way forward.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 11:44   #31
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

i'm personally very amused by kal getting to the middle of the thread and when balls up he just shifts responsibility to fiery

this is a genuine question: how did wolfpack manage to overrecruit so stupidly? i mean, it's been well known for a good while now that they've got 100 members+ "APPARENTLY" but how? why? is their plan genuinely to create 2 tags and etc etc or what ?
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 11:53   #32
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
i'm personally very amused by kal getting to the middle of the thread and when balls up he just shifts responsibility to fiery

this is a genuine question: how did wolfpack manage to overrecruit so stupidly? i mean, it's been well known for a good while now that they've got 100 members+ "APPARENTLY" but how? why? is their plan genuinely to create 2 tags and etc etc or what ?
I stated from the start that I didn't know if the rule would be enforced or not - perhaps I should have clarrified that its not a decision for me to take. The only reason I posted was to put forward away a large alliance could operate within the rules in the EULA.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 12:27   #33
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

get rid of alliance limits
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 12:36   #34
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Amen.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 12:38   #35
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Just to make one thing clear, Wolfpack has by all means not 120 members, nor do we even have more than 100. But that´s not the point here.The point should be the EULA. If you read it closely it says:

(f) Support Accounts are accounts which are dedicated to undertaking specific
and repeated actions which result in an unfair benefit for a
planet/organisation, where an organisation is defined as an alliance or galaxy.

That would basically mean that no Alliance is to be allowed to ally another Alliance and coordinate attacks together. After all, one alliance, i would suppose the smaller one could be counted as it then, would always be a support alliance to help get the higher ranked alliance to the top. According to this rule, if Ally #2 and #3 join attacks on #1 to take them down, one alliance (or even both since they agreed together to support each other), would have to be closed down for supporting #2 in gaining the top spot.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 13:13   #36
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
My question to the PA crew and MH is this:
When 1up was on a drivel a bit resembling this one, the answer was No, the planets will not be closed.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 13:18   #37
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darky
Just to make one thing clear, Wolfpack has by all means not 120 members, nor do we even have more than 100. But that´s not the point here
do you have more than 70 though?

and yes the amount of players is exactly the point, if you have more than the outlined tag limit of 70 you are BREAKING THE RULES
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 13:28   #38
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Technically I believe you are even supposed to have all scanners/covoppers inside the tag. Though this is obviously widely broken.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 15:24   #39
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darky
Just to make one thing clear, Wolfpack has by all means not 120 members, nor do we even have more than 100. But that´s not the point here.The point should be the EULA. If you read it closely it says:

(f) Support Accounts are accounts which are dedicated to undertaking specific
and repeated actions which result in an unfair benefit for a
planet/organisation, where an organisation is defined as an alliance or galaxy.

That would basically mean that no Alliance is to be allowed to ally another Alliance and coordinate attacks together. After all, one alliance, i would suppose the smaller one could be counted as it then, would always be a support alliance to help get the higher ranked alliance to the top. According to this rule, if Ally #2 and #3 join attacks on #1 to take them down, one alliance (or even both since they agreed together to support each other), would have to be closed down for supporting #2 in gaining the top spot.
That's simply not accurate. Alliances #2 and #3 and their members have political autonomy. They may support you or they may not. If you're cunning enough to convince a second alliance command that they should dedicate their entire efforts to making you number one, then well done for exercising the best politics in the game.

This rule is concerned with 'accounts' wholly dedicated to your benefit and acting under direct instruction from yourself.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 15:48   #40
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darky
Just to make one thing clear, Wolfpack has by all means not 120 members, nor do we even have more than 100. But that´s not the point here.The point should be the EULA. If you read it closely it says:

(f) Support Accounts are accounts which are dedicated to undertaking specific
and repeated actions which result in an unfair benefit for a
planet/organisation, where an organisation is defined as an alliance or galaxy.

That would basically mean that no Alliance is to be allowed to ally another Alliance and coordinate attacks together.
No because it talks about unfair benefit - regular political activity does not result in 'unfair benefit'.

Really it is talking about planets dedicated to defending or escorting other planets in a different or another tag (as I understand it) because this is seen as unfair. If one alliance had two tags they could not help each other in this manner because planetarion alliances are defined by the game and the game only, by creation and membership of a tag.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 21:00   #41
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Simple solution to the problem: when PA-team fails to uphold the rules the community takes over.

Put WP over the lap and spank them properly!
Make their comeback memorable – and kill em off!

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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 22:41   #42
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Well isnt this an interesting read

Last round ofc i removed the support planet rule due to the fact we were re-introducing clusters and with the eta bonuses and cluster alliances it would of been to hard to police. So therefore i removed it and i was quite possative it was removed from the eula.

Now tbh i dont mind it been brought back in again. Im not against that at all. However, what i am against is the lack of communication. That has to my knowedlge as im possative that was removed last round (as i got approval from biffy about that front) how its managed to emerge back into the eula and ofc no anouncement at all has been made?

But again they have grounds to police it due to it been there. Just wonder how it got there. Anyway nm me. I just wanted to post to clarify to everyone i LEFT PA Team last round. So stop pming me on this issue
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 22:51   #43
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

I had a brief discussion about this ealier. Unfortunatly i cant quote exactly anything that was said (as it was in a channel which was no quote) but i came to the following conclusion.

The support planet rule was removed last round and there has been no announcement made saying that this rule has been put back in place. Therefore WolfPack are not breaking the support planet rule as it does not exist anymore (or more precisely it was announced that this rule would not be enforced - apparently). This being so WolfPack are not breaking any rules there. WolfPacks can only be attributed to the same as a block (which doesnt break any rules). I personally feel that if the PATeam were to intervene then WolfPack would have a case to take to Jolt for mistreatment (that is of course assuming that Jolt would give a shit).

Just my thoughts.
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 23:19   #44
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

I have to disagree with you there chef. If it is in the eula that players have explicitly agreed to ( and should have read on signup ), then it is contractually binding to them and to pateam.
These are the terms the players accepted when they signed up.

A lack of announcement about it appearing in the eula does not mean that it is suddenly invalid, and there has been no announcements that the support planet would not be enforced this round -anywhere- that i can see, so Im not sure where you got that from, are pateam grasping for excuses / making up some so that they do not have to do anything about it?

Pateam could, if they wanted to - change the eula to remove the clause however until that happens it is part of the user agreement and must be enforced unless pateam want to give the impression that its ok to ignore other parts of the eula since theres no intention to enforce it

In agreement with assassin below though - Pateam must decide one way or another about what action is to be taken, and to announce it *soon*.
This round has already had a calamatous start with the shuffles, eula issues dragging on is not going to help
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 23:22   #45
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Btw i just wanted to point everyones attention to this which i found ealier:

http://www.planetarion.com/news.php?id=182

This is a copy from the portal of the anouncement i made regarding the support planet rule been removed. (i found it strange this was on the forums also but thats vanished? Unless im mistaken. Anyway) Now if you notice i coppied and pasted the eula into that and as u see the support planet rule WAS removed. (i knew it was) I didnt edit that in any shape or form that was a copy and paste job from the signup page.

As i said above i have no problem at all with the rule been implemented thats not my concern. Its the fact PA Team are

1) Adding rules without telling anyone (yes i added this stupid rule to begin with but i at least anounced it first)
2) There either mistaken or lieing in there actions to enforce this rule (ie telling us it was in the eula all along when it wasnt proven above)
3) There appears to be a communication problem.

I did state in that speech though IF it was abused it could then be returned. However, last round it wasnt abused. And kal has said in this thread numorus times that the alliance in question (we all know who it is now right?) hasnt got that many planets. Dont get me wrong here i am not defending it, if they have that many planets they shud be stopped. I am simply proving a point that it wasnt abused last round with the rule removed so i dont see why its now been brought back in by pa team, when a pa team member is posting publicaly on this thread he doesnt see them with that many planets? (hence why i said bad communication on PA teams behalf)

So. Again. Is this rule going to be implemented or not?
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Unread 17 Apr 2007, 23:46   #46
Rumad
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

These arguments are circular.

"support" in and out of tag is something which bigger players in PA depend on.

How you can decide someone is assisting someone too much is beyond me. Isn't that what friendship is about? Overcoming the unsurmountable?

For me, the clearer the definitions become, the more players will work against it for the fabric of material benefit.

Rather than giving finite limits surely the emphasis should be on encouraging people through benefits to follow the true "spirit" of the game and concentrating on the real lazy arses who farm and cheat there way to the top?

Only my 2 pence worth :-)
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 00:16   #47
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Last round Assassin made the announcement that the support planet rule would not be enforced due to the fact that it did not allow for defending within the cluster however, if alliances started using planets that would qualify as support planets, the rule would be brought back. Currently, every alliance is limited to 70 planets and since that is the issue, an alliance limit rule will be put in place and enforced. I will have this rule put on the portal on the 18th and I will mass mail everyone playing.

Any alliance caught having extra planets intentionally attacking with said alliance or
intentionally defending an alliance planet while not in galaxy or cluster; or a planet
acting as though it belongs to said alliance through it's actions, while not in said
alliance, will be construed as a violation of the alliance limit and those planets will
be closed.

This rule has been discussed in the #alliances channel. I believe I answered all questions adequately so every HC in there understood my intent with this rule. If anyone has any questions, leave me a pm on IRC or mail me.

And before everyone starts complaining about the amended rule being introduced after round start. It's been done before in round 16.
18.6. Miscellaneous cheating
(a) Attempts to encourage other planets to break the rules will be considered
a breach of this agreement
(b) The transfer of accounts to other users is not permitted. Passing on your
login details to another user is not permitted, even if they are subsequently
the only user to access your account.
(c) As newer methods of cheating are discovered, you authorise us to interpret
all data logged about your account towards detecting these methods. Actions which
are deemed to be cheating are not restricted to the list given on this
EULA and may be added to at any time, and you authorise us to do so


Thank you
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 00:47   #48
gzambo
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
though careful attention would need to be paid by the mh team to make sure that one alliance did not become a dedicated support alliance.

em you have just described what a flak alliance does so should they have all there members deleted for being support planets
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 01:00   #49
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

a flak alliance has it's own command, and are under no obligation to do as the bigger alliance says (whether or not they chose to be muppets is their call)
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Unread 18 Apr 2007, 01:38   #50
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Re: Alliances, Support Planets and the EULA

Whether you break or don't break the support planets rule is essentially down to how good a lawyer you are. So if you're naive and being exploited you probably get deleted, while if you were doing it intentionally and thought a way to argue round the rule, you don't, even though probably, you deserve more punishment.

This is all because the rule doesn't act by what you do, but by adjectives of what you do, with adjectives that are open to various degrees of interpretation.

It's a very unfair rule.
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