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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 07:36   #51
Makhil
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Most alliances regulate there own numbers to what suits them and there capabilities.
Now that's crap
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 07:52   #52
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Marka View Post
Where is the scientific study relating to alliance sizes in online games? :P
I believe that economics might disagree, regarding the distribution of a limited resource (moderately skilled players) in a market to create optimal competition (avoiding monopols & cartels).
There are plenty of studies pertaining to group size and group dynamics, risk aversion and other such traits. The Market for Lemons, which jester originally brought up, is one such theoretical framework which supports the idea that the collective good is best served in this case by means of not curtailing the ability of alliances, should they so want to, to expand beyond their current limitations.

As for your understanding of economics, I'm afraid the prognosis is not good. Regardless of the fact that your choice of resource to focus on is questionable (leadership is the far more scarce resource in this equation), the simple premise that economics would encourage an active steering of the market forces is quite absurd.

Dominant companies, or alliances, are not a problem, as they have achieved their position by working within the fair constraints of the market. A problem only arises when a company reaches a position wherein it can leverage its market position to prevent competition. This is not the same as to say that an alliance would dominate a round, or indeed even multiple rounds, as they can never deny other alliances from being formed with the intent of competing with them. A true monopoly is one which could prevent other alliances from even entering the game to begin with.

An illustrative example here would be Microsoft, who use proprietary technologies such as DirectX and the Windows platform as well as their market position to force companies to create products for their platform and consumers to keep using their platform in order to have access to their favourite programs. Further, Microsoft uses the Windows platform and bundling to force other products of their upon their customers as a default option, including Internet Explorer, Outlook and Windows Media Player.

On the other hand, Google has a similar market position in terms of searches and internet advertising, however where as they facilitate easy access to their other services by using a common login for other services such as GMail, Google Docs and Blogger, they do not force these options upon anyone. Google, whilst being quite dominant within its own field, does not generally act in a monopolistic fashion.

How would the world of internet searches be better off if Google was forced to operate only 10 servers worldwide? This is essentially what you propose economics believes.
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 07:58   #53
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
Now that's crap
Indeed it is. The capabilities and commitment of the leaders of most alliances regulates the size which their alliance can feasibly reach. It's not simply by choice that they remain the size that they are (although this is true of some cases), but due to the limitations of their capability to grow further.

In either case, lowering the size limit of tags does not alleviate the true issue, it simply forces leaders who are willing and able to gather a larger group of followers to release some of their members, with no guarantees that they'll stick around after their alliance of choice is no longer available to them.
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 08:13   #54
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

I for one would love a round where the alliance limits are 30-40. It's never been tried, we've raised it and gone back down to what PA team think is their limit, but why not give it a go?

HC'ing/Dc'ing in a 30 man alliance is easy, you can keep a decent track on all of the members and you won't have that much random incoming as you simply have so few planets that it's not worth it. It would make for some great politics with 10 alliances of the size limit. Why can't we try it once?

I do understand that you want to keep "communities" together and think it would lead to them disbanding, but frankly i'd quite like it if there was a NewDawn 1 & NewDawn 2 in ally rankings who you KNEW would be allied throughout the round, it would create teams and such, whilst being at a limit of 30 per alliance would not flat out ruin the round for everyone else like the NFI/ND NAP this round. And also frankly what communities are their left now? The winning alliance formed this round, Ascendancy start most rounds with a lower member count and recruit throughout the round, CT have shown many times that they're willing to play with below 50 members.. It just seems to me like you're trying to cater to something that isn't there that much anymore.
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 08:34   #55
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

very very very pro for all this, i dont get it why ppl are fighting against this small tag round so much.. theres nothing to lose, in my honest opinion theres lots to win, yes its never tryed out before and how the heck can it be any worse than the previous round?!??!

small tags would live up the competition, more capable alliances that can fight for top1.. even atm with the current alliance sizes we got new BGs formed and stuff that all kinda stay around 40-50 members if even that much.. they are good communities as well but dosent have a chance to go for top rankings as there simply is too few ppl left in this game.. adapt to smaller playerbase and try out at least 2 rounds of 40man tags, that would give u the actual result and we can see then if it is good enough to continue.

ps: also i totally agree that seeing ND1, ND2, ND3 tags competeing wouldn`t be anything bad.. let em def each othre with +1 eta and its fine.. it also would create competition even between themselves

imo this would be the best idea in a long time to get this shit goin again.. TRY IT FFS
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 08:36   #56
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

and dont give me any BS about we not having enough ppl to HC or run these "new" small tag alliances.. im pretty sure id find at least 3 ppl atm that would start their project if it was lower tags and they really had something to play for

running 30 man tag is not as time consuming as 80 man one.. one can also carefully pick and invite who he wants and avoid all the emo intrenal shit goin on from time to time and spare alot of time already from this..
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 08:50   #57
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

Where do i sign up to join your gang jonny? and how soon do you think we will control New York again?
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 09:06   #58
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by neroon View Post
ps: also i totally agree that seeing ND1, ND2, ND3 tags competeing wouldn`t be anything bad.. let em def each othre with +1 eta and its fine.. it also would create competition even between themselves.
I am totally against this idea the main reason being it would create a heavy fi/co universe to negate the possibility of receiving out of tag defense on your attack.

http://www.clawofdarkness.com/pawiki/index.php/Round_31

"This round was marked by the dominance of a few particular ship types, primarily Cathaar fighters and Xandathrii fighter/corvette fleets, with frigate and destroyer anti-cr/bs def fleets. Ascendancy and xVx were almost entirely fi/co to start off. Other alliances specialised even further with SPOON going totally Xan fi/co and DLR being almost purely Cath fi."

also having tags 2 and 3 are potentally open to abuse from "support planets"
I personally call them cheating [email protected][email protected] and I dont trust the MH ability to police this effectively... and would prefer to keep the status quo with the
"Defending a planet out of your galaxy in an alliance not yours is forbidden."
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 09:13   #59
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

out of tag defence is forbidden and coded not to be possible, unless its naped alliance that u will be defending.. nothing in this this part changes.. and why fi/co? concerning ure idea it is doable at this point as well, 2 biggest alliances making preround agreement and going fi/co as napped and defending each other

i cant get ure point on this one tbh, im sorry :S
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 09:14   #60
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by HaNzI View Post
Where do i sign up to join your gang jonny? and how soon do you think we will control New York again?
You're already in. You chose NY in comparison to the size of your ego ?
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 09:15   #61
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

and what do u mean as support planets? the overall idea of alliances and how they work would not change, just the tags are reduced making it possible to form new ones more easily that would be competent enough to run for top3 rankings.. having more than 2 alliances in the round that are runners for roundwin would also make the whole top3 ranking a bit more meaningful as well imo..
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 09:16   #62
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
The Market for Lemons, which jester originally brought up, is one such theoretical framework which supports the idea that the collective good is best served in this case by means of not curtailing the ability of alliances, should they so want to, to expand beyond their current limitations.
I don't really know what the market for lemons could potentially have to do with groups - you can't compare the choice of a product with choice of alliance. Besides that should have had a different restult than what we currently see in PA.
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As for your understanding of economics, I'm afraid the prognosis is not good. Regardless of the fact that your choice of resource to focus on is questionable (leadership is the far more scarce resource in this equation), the simple premise that economics would encourage an active steering of the market forces is quite absurd.
There is an interconnection between activity and leadership that can't be denied. While not every active player is a good leader, an inactive leader can't be good. The best leader can't work if he has to work with a group of 50 inactives.
But going back to leadership. Considering this as a resource it is also scaleable in a way. The big tags needs 4-5HCs and 10 officers each. Leading to a ratio of 1 skilled leading person for every 6 or 7 members. If we distribute those HCs and officers to 2 tags we get a similar ratio. Considering a certain overhead, the same leaders hosting one 80-ppl tag could also run two 35-ppl tags.
The real questions is how the market wants to distribute available resources (actives, leaders). Do we want 5 competitive tags like we have now. Or force available resources to go into 10.
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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
Dominant companies, or alliances, are not a problem, as they have achieved their position by working within the fair constraints of the market.
The whole point about this suggestion is that the market constraints are not fair. They don't allow for competition and create a boring environment.
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blabla...Microsoft bad
Google is not evil...blabla
Why anyone still buys into Google being a good company is beyond me. The points you are making here smell strongly of reality distortion.
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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
How would the world of internet searches be better off if Google was forced to operate only 10 servers worldwide? This is essentially what you propose economics believes.
No. The suggestion is, if there are 1000 servers you could operate on (a silly assumptions since servers are no limited resource per se) - should Google own 900?
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 10:42   #63
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

I can't be arsed to even start dissecting everything you got wrong in that post Marka.

Just quickly:
-The market of lemons as suggested is from the perspective of alliances, with players being the lemons.
-A tag of 80 people doesn't require 5 HC + 10 officers. NFI ran with ~5 HC's and no officers all round, most of the time less. In general, there is actually less overhead per member in a larger alliance than in a smaller.
-The question wasn't which company, Microsoft or Google, was good or bad, but that one has acted in a monopolistic fashion, while the other one hasn't.
-Servers are as much a limited resource as players are. I.e. neither is really limited.

And please, if you're going to state that the constraints aren't fair, bloody prove that as well. The same rules apply to every alliance in this game, and the closest thing to any unfairness we have in this game is some alliances proprietary technologies, which really isn't even worth mentioning when tools such as Merlin are open source.
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 12:45   #64
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
Just quickly:
-The market of lemons as suggested is from the perspective of alliances, with players being the lemons.
-A tag of 80 people doesn't require 5 HC + 10 officers. NFI ran with ~5 HC's and no officers all round, most of the time less. In general, there is actually less overhead per member in a larger alliance than in a smaller.
-The question wasn't which company, Microsoft or Google, was good or bad, but that one has acted in a monopolistic fashion, while the other one hasn't.
-Servers are as much a limited resource as players are. I.e. neither is really limited.
- This doesn't make sense at all
- So you saying that there is basically no leadership required, means more tags could be run easily. Contradicts previous statements about leadership being significantly restricted. I did specifically say that there is less overhead
- Both act heavily monopolistic
- Google has 1M + servers, Facebook 500k orso. If any company needs more they go to a supplier and bloody buy some. In PA all alliances draw from a pool of around 500 players. How you even try to compare both is beyond me.
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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
And please, if you're going to state that the constraints aren't fair, bloody prove that as well. The same rules apply to every alliance in this game, and the closest thing to any unfairness we have in this game is some alliances proprietary technologies, which really isn't even worth mentioning when tools such as Merlin are open source.
Taking last round as example - the current "constraints" allowed the creation of a cartel of merely two alliances that in itself could not be threatened by any reasonable coalition of remaining alliances. Creating a block of 2 allies is easy; 5 or 6 "possible"; 9-10 irrational. Which is why I don't buy into the argument, often brought up in this context that they would "block anyway".
How external tools are supposed to be unfair - that makes no sense to me at all. Anyone with sufficient knowledge can create their own if they consider it worthwhile.
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 15:25   #65
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by neroon View Post
out of tag defence is forbidden and coded not to be possible, unless its naped alliance that u will be defending..
nothing in this this part changes.. and why fi/co? concerning ure idea it is doable at this point as well, 2 biggest alliances making preround agreement and going fi/co as napped and defending each other

i cant get ure point on this one tbh, im sorry :S
I'll presume that you are being genuine (and not being a wind up merchant) in asking this... so I'll be polite

Alliance setup

unless you nap as you said...
lets say you have alliance X who can have potental membership of say 100
and say if the alliance limit is 40.
There is nothing stopping an alliance to have 3 tags like
Alliance X 1st team (either a mix of good and medicore or top 40)
Alliance X 2nd team (either a mix of good and medicore or otherwise)
Alliance X 3rd team (Scanners and "support planets")
I'll refer to this as the Intertag alliance.

"Support planets" being those types of planets that seem to magically have 1 ship type and often go on a 1 way trip to the defending planet ie salvage donating. A point I have no faith in the MH team to police effectively.

having seperate tags but then NAPing so that they can cross def even with +1 eta. (A creative way of combining tags as I would call it to a degree)
if they go races that have fi/co pods as attack fleets.
Usually this is Xan and Cath but have seen ziks picking up fi/co pods by questionable means in previous rounds. Another point I have no faith in MH to police effectively.

Ingame Mechanics

Reason for this is simple... Work on the basis that hypergate has been researched aka tt4 or eta-4 research by all parties.

fi/co fleet has an eta 8 in base when on attack and goes eta 7 when red.

Which means that there is only 40 people in the alliance that can defend against it and or ingal defense... Xans having the potenal to do fakes will add to the effect of a limited def pool. You could ofcourse try your luck with prelaunched defense with the larger ship types but it isn't 100% reliable.

Mechanics wise ... fi/co look favourable to have as your main attack fleet in terms of % of landing without defense / uncovered.

Fr/De has an eta 9 in base and goes eta 8 when red.

This means that both alliance (40 in tag) Fr/de class ships can defend this on the same tick. but also alliance fi/co and NAPed fi/co can also defend against this. Thus increasing the chance of the attack getting covered due to a larger def pool.

Cr/bs has an eta of 10 in base and goes red at eta 9.

This means that both alliance (40 in tag) bs/cr class ships can defend this on the same tick. but also alliance frig/de and NAPed frig/de can also defend against this. Thus increasing the chance of the attack getting covered due to a larger def pool.

Fleet setup and logistics

if You are a HC and instruct your alliance to have a fi/co fleet as the means to obtain your roids and have frig/de class anti bs/cr for defense.
It means that you can source defense ships outside of the 40 tag alliance ie the other NAPed alliances to cover any fr/de/cr/bs.

Use an alliance webpage to DC the fr/de/cr/bs incs thus negating the intag def page set up problems of the intertag alliance. also getting the scanners to paste scan infomation onto that webby /or by irc bot.

So if 1 or 2 top alliances do this set up they are at an advantage due to the fleet logistics (faster eta for returning and sending of fleets and also larger defense pools) of this set up v an alliance that goes frig/de or cr/bs heavy set up.
So the other alliances follow suit to "keep up with the jones"
Thus creating a Fi/Co heavy universe.
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 18:47   #66
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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It just seems to me like you're trying to cater to something that isn't there that much anymore.
To a large extent this is true. The problem with smaller alliances is that each alliance member slot becomes more valuable to the alliance (this is how the market for lemons applies marka) and thus new players are less likely to be accepted. However pa as a game is horrifyingly shit and unlikely to attract new players anyways so meh.
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 19:14   #67
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

Man if i can find enough people to do even a half assed job at dcing/hcing/bcing the rest can to. Or otherwise just train some.

this is not a valid reason for removing tag limits
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 19:21   #68
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

Is this some sort of absurdist comedy show where everyone just shows up, makes one vaguely related remark and pretends that they've summed up the entire argument in a couple of sentences? Because nobody's laughing.
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 19:29   #69
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

I think it's time for a taglimit of 1
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 19:32   #70
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

Why dont the PA team just put thi sup as a vote ingame for THE PLAYERBASE to vote on - cos currently its just shot down constantly by the Asc troll squad and goes round in circles - if the PA Team got a vote atleast they would know what the playerbase feels on the subject - regardless of wether they act on it or not
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 19:36   #71
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

Because 90% of the playerbase are morons, and I'm being generous.
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 19:40   #72
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Why dont the PA team just put thi sup as a vote ingame for THE PLAYERBASE to vote on - cos currently its just shot down constantly by the Asc troll squad and goes round in circles - if the PA Team got a vote atleast they would know what the playerbase feels on the subject - regardless of wether they act on it or not
Get a ****ing grip dude, a grand total of 3 ascendancy members have participated actively in this thread..
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 20:20   #73
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
It's like saying "we've tried at temperatures from 40 to 10 degrees and water doesn't freeze... so water can't freeze"
No it isn't. It's nothing like that. Why do people feel the need to use shit analogies that don't even make sense
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 21:08   #74
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

This thread caused me to reflect on an allegory that I think best fits the current state of Planetarion:

Quote:
"Renaissance men developed a delightful, yet horrible way of dealing with their mad denizens: they were put on a ship and entrusted to mariners because folly, water, and sea, as everyone then "knew," had an affinity for each other. Thus, "Ship of Fools" crisscrossed the sea and canals of Europe with their comic and pathetic cargo of souls. Some of them found pleasure and even a cure in the changing surroundings, in the isolation of being cast off, while others withdrew further, became worse, or died alone and away from their families. The cities and villages which had thus rid themselves of their crazed and crazy, could now take pleasure in watching the exciting sideshow when a ship full of foreign lunatics would dock at their harbors."
We are on that ship Gentlemen. Sailing hither and yon aboard vessel populated by human inhabitants who are deranged, frivolous, or oblivious, passengers aboard a ship without a pilot, and seemingly ignorant of their own direction.
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 21:16   #75
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

Kai it's also worth noticing that Asc represent a large proportion of active forum posters. If anyone else had an opinion worth sharing, they'd join in. If they disagreed strongly enough with what was being said, they'd do so.

Until then, just accept the Ascendancy Forums for what they are.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 07:07   #76
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Because 90% of the playerbase are morons, and I'm being generous.
and that comes from a forum moderator...
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 08:53   #77
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

Because 99% of the player base have no clue what they're talking about. **** being generous. I would sooner entrust PA game development to 2 rabid monkeys than to the collective PA player base.

P.S. cry me a river
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 10:30   #78
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
and that comes from a forum moderator...
He was stating a fact which happends to be correct.

Take a look at this thread, all the evidence gathered for the tag limits points to them having no real impact on the amount of alliances playing. Yet, random players keep coming into this thread and saying "i think we should have 30 tag limits" for no reason other than they think it might help. How do they think it will help? they've no idea.

This discussion has been had multiple times and its always the same thing.. Evidence points to tag limits should be highered/high/deleted but people still insist it should be lowered for 'fun'. Its not going to be fun, alliances hve 80 members at the moment and will want to remain together for when the tag limit gets highered again the round after. You will have the main alliances just splitting there tag and playing together as usual while any other new alliance is at a huge disadvantage as they're outnumbered or even more likely, people will just take the opportunity to sit the round out as they arnt in the main tag for the alliance they want to play for.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 12:04   #79
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

Also, even if their 'fun' arguments holds some value. It will only be fun for a small proportion of the current playerbase but most definately also push away people from the current playerbase, making it smaller.
At the same time it makes it harder for 'new' players, that we still might get from the Jagex influx, to find an alliance (see the market for lemons).

Small tags are not good for the game.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 12:33   #80
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

You should play PA between the 1% smart enough to do so. It's getting there, too slowly though.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 12:38   #81
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Evidence points to tag limits should be highered/high/deleted but people still insist it should be lowered for 'fun'.
What evidence, it has never been tested. You're blinded or biaised.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 12:43   #82
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
Small tags are not good for the game.
I believe small tags are a necessary step to get more players. Old PA is coming to an end. The best for PA would be for the old players to leave and let the owner with money and ideas implement something that will please new people.
Just take a step back and look at yourself.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 12:56   #83
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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What evidence, it has never been tested. You're blinded or biaised.

Look up mz's posts about tag limit and playerbase.
Combine this with the market for lemons.
Combine this with the rest of jesters post (which is linked to a few posts back, I think on page one)

Then come back.

Let it sink in a bit.

Then reply again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
I believe small tags are a necessary step to get more players. Old PA is coming to an end. The best for PA would be for the old players to leave and let the owner with money and ideas implement something that will please new people.
Just take a step back and look at yourself.
By now you have probably already seen the errors of your ways, but nonetheless I am addressing this too.

What will happen with small tags, as has been posted before, is that a few tags will outclass the other tags by a bigger margin than we see now. New players, who will not be able to join the 'high rank' tags (because of all the arguments already posted before), will also not be able to join a 'middle rank' tag, since that is where all the rejects from the previous 'high tag' ranks are. Now they might start up a tag on their own. Mind you, these are 'new' players. For arguments sake, we assume they are irc active.
How in gods world will the game be fun for them, coming in green, being maulded by the current player base.

Comprehensed: You are suggesting that grouping 'new' players in homogenous tags is a good thing for them and the game.
I already showed you a counter argument why this wouldn't be a good idea, yet you haven't posted a single argument why it would be.

If you actually read all the posts I referred to above, you could try and counter the previous point. My predicition is that you will or not read the posts or fail miserably anyhow.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 13:00   #84
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Because 99% of the player base have no clue what they're talking about. **** being generous. I would sooner entrust PA game development to 2 rabid monkeys than to the collective PA player base.

P.S. cry me a river
It's a miracle that elites like you can even bare playing with us ordinary folks
I'm truly sorry if our stupidity offends your highness....

What are the qualifications you need as a mod on game forums nowadays? Underlying hate for the game and its players?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
Also, even if their 'fun' arguments holds some value. It will only be fun for a small proportion of the current playerbase but most definately also push away people from the current playerbase, making it smaller.
At the same time it makes it harder for 'new' players, that we still might get from the Jagex influx, to find an alliance (see the market for lemons).

Small tags are not good for the game.
Arguments on both sides are equally bad since they try to force hugely oversimplified models (lemons, work distribution) on a complex system, whose behavior is relying on way more factors than are looked at.
The only way to figure out what is best would be through a long-time study, meaning just trying for several rounds and see how the system behaves.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 13:13   #85
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
You should play PA between the 1% smart enough to do so. It's getting there, too slowly though.
I did not say you were in the 99%, but it is somewhat surprising that you consider yourself part of it (few people would).

Less surprisingly, you misunderstand my point. The ability to play a game like PA is very different from the ability to design or even just to balance a game. There are quite a lot of people who fall in the first category (much more than 1% of the PA player base), but if you asked me to make a list of people who I thought fell in the second category, it would not go into the double digits.

Marka misunderstands my point in the exact same way. And also thinks he's part of the 99%. Funny how that goes.

P.S. I would like to remove ships from the game. We should ignore all rational arguments and just try it for a couple of rounds.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 13:26   #86
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marka View Post
It's a miracle that elites like you can even bare playing with us ordinary folks
I'm truly sorry if our stupidity offends your highness....

What are the qualifications you need as a mod on game forums nowadays? Underlying hate for the game and its players?


Arguments on both sides are equally bad since they try to force hugely oversimplified models (lemons, work distribution) on a complex system, whose behavior is relying on way more factors than are looked at.
The only way to figure out what is best would be through a long-time study, meaning just trying for several rounds and see how the system behaves.

No, because the arguments on the 'pro' side of small tag limits have been exposed as flawed or not being arguments at all.
While (most) arguments on the 'no' side of small tag limits, aka the side of high/no limits have no yet been countered or shown to be flawed.

This balances things, but the thing that makes me so vehemently against small tag limits is that there are a few very sound arguments that show that small tag limits hurt the game.

I personally do not think that we are in the luxurious position of expirimenting on this game and if it doesn't work, we revert back to the old system and magically players we pushed away come back.
Because if small tag limits are 'right', we will still push away players from the game (which is I think a 'bad' thing) even though for the smaller player base it might be more fun. In the end this will make the game worse.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 13:27   #87
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Marka misunderstands my point in the exact same way. And also thinks he's part of the 99%. Funny how that goes.
No. You called 90% (1350 of 1500) morons. If you intend not to insult people, then maybe it would be a good idea to not do it.
You said that 99% (1485 of 1500) are too stupid to have an insight about game design that you imply you have yourself. Also I'm impressed that you know all the players and can make such a precise judgement.
Playing the game for dozens of rounds ofc is no guarantee that your ideas about future PA are reasonable, but neither is having posted in the game forums 5000 times.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 13:50   #88
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Marka View Post
No. You called 90% (1350 of 1500) morons. If you intend not to insult people, then maybe it would be a good idea to not do it.
I did not insult you personally, nor Makhil. You did that all by yourselves, without any prompting on my part, by volunteering the opinion that you were part of the moron-clan. I don't think it's my task to reassure everyone who thinks they're a moron by saying they're not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marka View Post
You said that 99% (1485 of 1500) are too stupid to have an insight about game design that you imply you have yourself. Also I'm impressed that you know all the players and can make such a precise judgement.
I think I can confidently say that I know a fairly representative sample of the PA community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marka View Post
Playing the game for dozens of rounds ofc is no guarantee that your ideas about future PA are reasonable, but neither is having posted in the game forums 5000 times.
It's generally quite easy to distinguish between the two levels on which I judge suggestions. I will generally respond to ideas which are not backed up by reason or argument or evidence by saying "This is a stupid idea because ..." and to ideas that don't fit into my vision of what PA should be like by saying "I disagree with this idea because ...".

I do not (nor will I ever) judge ideas by the name of the poster and some preconceived notion of who is dumb and who is smart. I will happily applaud and support good ideas by people whom I consider clueless and burn bad ideas by people whom I consider intelligent.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 13:54   #89
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
What evidence, it has never been tested. You're blinded or biaised.
What exactly do you think is so magical about a tag limit of 40? Would 41 do it? Would 45? Would 50? Would there not be a gradual change at some point or will great planetarion just snap into existence or something?
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 13:58   #90
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

Surely its not about the ability of the playerbase but actually about what they want - they pay the money that keeps the game running and profitable so there opinion or wants should be priority. It doesnt really matter if a select few are against the idea, the paying customers should still be asked.


When new players join this game they are warned of these forums because of ppl like mz and jbg who troll and flame ppl 's idea into the ground because it doesnt not match there own insular ideas. It's not healthy and maybe it is something Jagex will look into if/when it starts its overhaul of PA. The forums should be a place where everyone is free to voice there opinion and have there say without being ridiculed and mocked by a certain group of people

The fact that mz is invariably the main instigator of this in most threads shows how little the PA team actually seems to care about the forums and what happens on them, any other game would have removed him as a mod by now for his actions
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 14:04   #91
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

Not really, because if you look carefully he always backs up his points by, you know, arguments.

Also your suggestion to listen to the playerbase is something I do not agree with. Apart from the danger of 'design' by commitee, I rather have one vision with this game and sticking to it, not listen to every whim of this community.

Ofcourse using the feedback you get from your stakeholders is wise and vital to the survival of any business (game/orginization), however you should not let them tell you what to do.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 14:06   #92
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

No but they should be allowed a say. The point im trying to make is the forum population is a very small percentage of teh gameplaying community. By having a poll ingame maybe you would see what people think and it might also attract more ppl to come here and input - who knows we could have the saviour of PA sitting out there waiting to be found
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 14:08   #93
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
No but they should be allowed a say. The point im trying to make is the forum population is a very small percentage of teh gameplaying community. By having a poll ingame maybe you would see what people think and it might also attract more ppl to come here and input - who knows we could have the saviour of PA sitting out there waiting to be found
Apart from the obvious perils of 'polling' where you try to structure a creative process. I do think that everyone that wants to have a say can have a say here, but as said before, you need to back up your points with arguments, logic, data and reason.

Something 99% of you seem to miss.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 14:15   #94
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Surely its not about the ability of the playerbase but actually about what they want - they pay the money that keeps the game running and profitable so there opinion or wants should be priority. It doesnt really matter if a select few are against the idea, the paying customers should still be asked.
As I've said before, I do feel that people's opinions on which direction the game should take should be taken into account, but only on the most abstract level. However, I don't think being a customer buys you the right to have your every whim catered to. When you upgrade your account, what you get in return is certain in-game privileges such as getting your incomings auto-reported and an amount of resources/roids and research/construction points, not the right to alter the game to suit your particular fancy.

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
No but they should be allowed a say.
These are public forums.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 14:35   #95
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
No, because the arguments on the 'pro' side of small tag limits have been exposed as flawed or not being arguments at all.
While (most) arguments on the 'no' side of small tag limits, aka the side of high/no limits have no yet been countered or shown to be flawed.
If an argument is repeated continuously it does not get valid (admittedly that counts for both sides).
If an argument is challenged using unproven arguments it doesn't get invalidated.

So for the sake of argumentation let's have a look at the market for lemons theory concerning PA, the full extend can be found at http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=193999

Some problems I have with this:
  • View centric from a single alliance - no politics, interconnections etc
  • No factoring in of alliance communities
  • Assuming PA recruitment is an open market
  • Assuming PA having a basically unlimited resource of players
  • Giving no factors about what makes a high-quality player
While it is a very well-proposed argument, the model used is overly simple, does not take into account the influence of smaller tags on politics and has not been tested, since the top-tiered alliances having a full tag usually don't have an open recruitment. Besides even for (and only those) the possible lemon market has been countermeasured by having less members counting towards the final score.

Since you seem to want a more solid argumentation. I propose to create a system based on the number of competitive alliances desired in the game. Why?
  • Coalitions get more difficult to uphold the more alliances are in. More competitive alliances prevents superior blocks from forming and/or simplifies creation of counterblocks
  • Less alliance def improves gal play, since they are required as second source of def.
  • With more important gal play NAPs are countermeasured since you can't afford not to def ingal vs certain incomings
  • Political situations will change more quickly avoiding boring weeks as seen in R38
  • It is easier to form new alliances since a smaller core is required

To just throw in a random number what I would consider a good amount - 10.
Then I propose this very simple model to calculate tag:

tag_limit = number_of_active_players / number_of_good_alliances_you_want

Active players are folks that log on daily, participate in attacks and defence regularly.
Assuming we currently have 500 of those - the preferred tag size would be 50. Ofc decreases if you want more competitive alliances.
To prevent the market of lemons, I would suggest to make upper 80% count towards alliance score. So for a full tag 40 count, for a 20 man tag 16 (everyone needs scanners in tag afterall). Also referring again to the market of lemons, this might lead to more alliances being able to try out new players while sustaining a good average score attracting new players.
Assumptions of this model:
  • Communities with best leaders adapt fastest.
  • The "leadership quota" amongst PA players is high enough to sustain enough competitive alliances
  • The required leadership quality for smaller tags is lower thus increasing quota
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 14:45   #96
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marka View Post
If an argument is repeated continuously it does not get valid (admittedly that counts for both sides).
If an argument is challenged using unproven arguments it doesn't get invalidated.

So for the sake of argumentation let's have a look at the market for lemons theory concerning PA, the full extend can be found at http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=193999

Some problems I have with this:
  • View centric from a single alliance - no politics, interconnections etc
  • No factoring in of alliance communities
  • Assuming PA recruitment is an open market
  • Assuming PA having a basically unlimited resource of players
  • Giving no factors about what makes a high-quality player
While it is a very well-proposed argument, the model used is overly simple, does not take into account the influence of smaller tags on politics and has not been tested, since the top-tiered alliances having a full tag usually don't have an open recruitment. Besides even for (and only those) the possible lemon market has been countermeasured by having less members counting towards the final score.

Since you seem to want a more solid argumentation. I propose to create a system based on the number of competitive alliances desired in the game. Why?
  • Coalitions get more difficult to uphold the more alliances are in. More competitive alliances prevents superior blocks from forming and/or simplifies creation of counterblocks
  • Less alliance def improves gal play, since they are required as second source of def.
  • With more important gal play NAPs are countermeasured since you can't afford not to def ingal vs certain incomings
  • Political situations will change more quickly avoiding boring weeks as seen in R38
  • It is easier to form new alliances since a smaller core is required

To just throw in a random number what I would consider a good amount - 10.
Then I propose this very simple model to calculate tag:

tag_limit = number_of_active_players / number_of_good_alliances_you_want

Active players are folks that log on daily, participate in attacks and defence regularly.
Assuming we currently have 500 of those - the preferred tag size would be 50. Ofc decreases if you want more competitive alliances.
To prevent the market of lemons, I would suggest to make upper 80% count towards alliance score. So for a full tag 40 count, for a 20 man tag 16 (everyone needs scanners in tag afterall). Also referring again to the market of lemons, this might lead to more alliances being able to try out new players while sustaining a good average score attracting new players.
Assumptions of this model:
  • Communities with best leaders adapt fastest.
  • The "leadership quota" amongst PA players is high enough to sustain enough competitive alliances
  • The required leadership quality for smaller tags is lower thus increasing quota
Your whole argument hinges on the fact that lower tag limit = more alliances. When its been shown time and time again, that lowering the tag limit does not create more alliances. Those players kicked out of their alliance simply turn casual or do not play that round. You lose players and the game loses revenue when you lower the tag limit.

tag_limit = number_of_active_players / number_of_good_alliances_you_want

^^ Is certainly not true.

The easiest way to explain it is, when you drop the tag limit.. you stop players from playing in the alliance they want to play in (or have been playing in). They do not automatically go join another alliance, some of them decide to sit out the round or play casually, rather than playing with people they dont know. This is in addition to the amount of decent HC's/BC's/DC's the community has.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 15:00   #97
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Your whole argument hinges on the fact that lower tag limit = more alliances. When its been shown time and time again, that lowering the tag limit does not create more alliances.
When exactly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Those players kicked out of their alliance simply turn casual or do not play that round. You lose players and the game loses revenue when you lower the tag limit.
So all 80-100 ppl in NFI now left game? Interesting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
tag_limit = number_of_active_players / number_of_good_alliances_you_want

^^ Is certainly not true.

The easiest way to explain it is, when you drop the tag limit.. you stop players from playing in the alliance they want to play in (or have been playing in).
I admit the model is very simple, about not being true we have to discuss some more. I think your argumentation is not valid for following reasons:
How does a player decide for which ally to play? The three most popular reasons are.
  1. He knows people in the alliance - a lower tag limit might limit those choices - if the community core of alliances approaches the tag limit
  2. He assumes that he can play a good round in this alliance - his options increase with more competitive alliances
  3. He is a new player and scrolling through recruitment forum - just inserted for joke, such things don't happen anymore in PA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
They do not automatically go join another alliance, some of them decide to sit out the round or play casually, rather than playing with people they dont know. This is in addition to the amount of decent HC's/BC's/DC's the community has.
How many alliances are still around from R1? If your theory is true noone would be left playing.
The current remaining folks play PA because they like it or have masochistic tendencies. If some of their friends move to another place they follow. Also there are many players who just go wherever they will get a good planet.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 15:29   #98
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

It's fairly obvious that Light does not mean people want to play under a specific name, but with a certain group of people.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 15:56   #99
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

hey, I object to your 80-100 insinuation, marka!

We peaked at 81 active members, at which point we kicked a scanner from tag to make room for another player with more value (when we went to war with newdawn). Bee (hafstad) was NFI for the first few hundred ticks then emoquit after falling out with Patrikc over being reprimanded for attacking whilst fleets were grounded (or something similar), mykool was in NFI for about a day pre-ticks but went to app in favour of their cr/bs strat, varok crashed and was removed. elviz quit tag apparently because of the vacmode thing, but it was probably more to do with the fact that he found out HellKicker might be the father of FF's baby.

Smaller tags are DEFINITELY easier to manage (with the same number of people doing the managing ofc), but as has been mentioned previously, the 'value' of each player is dramatically increased and so alliances with smaller tags will suffer more from any instances of crashing/inactivity/poor play than a larger tag with 'spare members'.

Irrespective of alliance size though, the curtailing of members that can contribute score to a tag is ultimately ridiculous. Sure, it lessens the impact of a top player royally buggering up - but surely you SHOULD be punished when you cock up?

Smaller alliances are easier to organise, but harder to maintain over a whole round simply because it requires more from each individual. In today's climate most of us have real lives with jobs, partners and weekends have greater significance than "no school", so putting as much effort in is, given the rewards on offer, not worth it at all.
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Unread 30 Sep 2010, 16:01   #100
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Re: Alliance Size for next round

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I did not insult you personally, nor Makhil. You did that all by yourselves, without any prompting on my part, by volunteering the opinion that you were part of the moron-clan. I don't think it's my task to reassure everyone who thinks they're a moron by saying they're not.
I do believe that you wanted to insult the OP and all others agreeing with his opinion. After all you posted those numbers in a thread where you previously expressed disagreement with this specific suggestion. Admittedly in an indirect fashion, provoking certain responses etc etc.
I can just say it again - if you don't want to insult people then don't, especially not if your a mod that is usually linked to a certain unbiased view and higher behavioral standards than the common forum members.
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