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Unread 13 May 2010, 21:09   #1
Baba
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Alliance player limit

I know this floats around before every round, but I still suggest lowering the max player amount of alliances for r37.

100? I mean c'mon, our player base isn't nearly big enough to support multiple 100 player alliances. I know only 60 players contribute to the score, but that doesn't change much.

50 max imo, maybe even smaller?
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Unread 13 May 2010, 21:10   #2
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Re: Alliance player limit

Only 50 contribute to score.
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Unread 13 May 2010, 22:24   #3
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Re: Alliance player limit

doesnt matter what limit you put on alliances people will just play outside the alliance. or create 2 alliances. sure you can effect defence but not much.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 07:02   #4
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Re: Alliance player limit

Yes there are a lack of players, but the bigger issue is there are a lack of people willing and able to command/lead an alliance.

I see retarded arguments from some alliance HCs that the limits are too big and it's too hard for them to organise a big alliance, and why can't we have smaller alliances as it's much easier to organise smaller alliances?

This is a very selfish viewpoint. Sure it might be easier for you to run a 50 man alliance, but who's going to organise the other 50 members that you just kicked out? Furthermore, most people will agree, the amount of HCs/officers/whatever you need per peon decreases as your total memberbase increases.

Another point: if you really can't afford to take in any more peons, then don't. You don't have to reach the alliance limit just because it's there.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 09:19   #5
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Re: Alliance player limit

We've had this argument a dozen times before and we will have it a dozen times more, unless Appoco takes a long term decision to either give the low tag limit people what they want, or the high/no tag limit people. He needs to tell us that for the next 5 rounds, we will be guaranteed a tag limit of X. Yes, he will be ridiculed by whichever side loses, but at least then we know what we're dealing with, which is a lot better than not knowing how many people you should recruit for fear that you have to kick them all out again for next round.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 09:32   #6
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Re: Alliance player limit

Smaller tag limits make for more stable, hence more competitive alliances. If the tag limit stays this way, we're bound to see 3 alliances (at most) fighting for number one, making politics and wars dull.

Combine that with the lack of significant changes to PA and you get one boring game that bleeds users round after round.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 09:36   #7
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Re: Alliance player limit

We have never had more than 3 alliances fighting for number one. Not with low tag limits, not with high ones.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 10:34   #8
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Re: Alliance player limit

We even had only 1 last round wich napped the #2 alliance. Come to think of it... winning most likely wasn't their goal (fun) so
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Unread 14 May 2010, 11:29   #9
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Re: Alliance player limit

big alliances are just happy to nap each other and bully small targets. Alliance size should be 50 max with every single member counting for the score (i'm an extremist and would go down to 30 members, with a maximum of 2 naps, but that's only me).
If big alliances make multiple tags and nap each other so be it, at least they won't have the eta bonus in def.
But who makes the rules ? The big alliances leaders... now you understand why we're stuck with this nonsense rule of 100 members per alliance (and the 50 members count looking like a broken thong on a fat ass). And as they rule the forum and the moderation, it is just hopeless. Be happy you can at least express yourself (but expect insults in return).
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Unread 14 May 2010, 11:33   #10
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Re: Alliance player limit

You forget to mention most big alliances are shitty ones. They dont play to win this game.. ever. They play to have fun meaning big tag and crappy players. The only reason the top 50 count towards score is because some competent alliances deserve a chance aswell at the top
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Unread 14 May 2010, 11:45   #11
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Re: Alliance player limit

Did you ****ing retarded faggots just completely ignore my post?

Low alliance limits does not increase the amount of competing alliances: there aren't enough people willing/able to command/lead extra alliances. Fact.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 12:19   #12
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by ellonweb View Post
Did you ****ing retarded faggots just completely ignore my post?

Low alliance limits does not increase the amount of competing alliances: there aren't enough people willing/able to command/lead extra alliances. Fact.
So whats your point! because nobody cba to do anything just leave it as it is?
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Unread 14 May 2010, 13:00   #13
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Re: Alliance player limit

The point is that you need to set the tag limit in such a way that the number of semi-competent HCs is such that the number of people who want to be in alliances can all be in one.

Of course, that's based entirely on the assumption that the tag limit has an effect on the number of people in alliances, which is not an assumption that's supported by the data.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 14:38   #14
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Re: Alliance player limit

it is inevitable to only have a small number (2 - 4) alliances battling out for top spot.

look at the example of football (soccer) in europe. all the leagues have been dominated but a few teams for decades. this is because the best players want to play for the best teams.

the same thing happens in PA, the best players will just change to the best alliances.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 14:53   #15
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Re: Alliance player limit

Read this and try to debate that using logical arguements.

Stop posting anything else. This post goes out to everyone. Stop posting. Read the aforementioned.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 15:10   #16
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
Read this and try to debate that using logical arguements.

Stop posting anything else. This post goes out to everyone. Stop posting. Read the aforementioned.
You're asking to read that big pile of shit post jester made? If it's 10 lines yea i might do it
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Unread 14 May 2010, 15:29   #17
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by ellonweb View Post
Low alliance limits does not increase the amount of competing alliances: there aren't enough people willing/able to command/lead extra alliances. Fact.
It does lower the power of the big ones, does increase the number of targets, does increase the chance of a random gal to survive an alliance raid (and not become their favorite farm). It can motivate smaller alliances and make them believe they stand a chance if they make the extra effort (it wont give ND any balls, but they're helpless anyway).
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Unread 14 May 2010, 16:06   #18
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Re: Alliance player limit

jesters post is worth reading if you have a serious interest in this topic and are not just bored :P
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Unread 14 May 2010, 16:46   #19
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
big alliances are just happy to nap each other and bully small targets. Alliance size should be 50 max with every single member counting for the score (i'm an extremist and would go down to 30 members, with a maximum of 2 naps, but that's only me).
If big alliances make multiple tags and nap each other so be it, at least they won't have the eta bonus in def.
But who makes the rules ? The big alliances leaders... now you understand why we're stuck with this nonsense rule of 100 members per alliance (and the 50 members count looking like a broken thong on a fat ass). And as they rule the forum and the moderation, it is just hopeless. Be happy you can at least express yourself (but expect insults in return).
Fully agree
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Unread 14 May 2010, 16:51   #20
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
It does lower the power of the big ones, does increase the number of targets, does increase the chance of a random gal to survive an alliance raid (and not become their favorite farm). It can motivate smaller alliances and make them believe they stand a chance if they make the extra effort (it wont give ND any balls, but they're helpless anyway).
FFS. Don't tell me you know telepathy???



Problem is: people want to play with their friends. And if you lower it, people would have to choose which friends they want to play.
That's why the alliance tag limit has increased.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 18:19   #21
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Re: Alliance player limit

You're all a bunch of ****ing morons and I'm really glad every time I remember that Appoco has enough intelligence to ignore all of you retards.

In other news, jester's post is (non-shocker) pretty good.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 19:20   #22
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellonweb View Post
Did you ****ing retarded faggots just completely ignore my post?

Low alliance limits does not increase the amount of competing alliances: there aren't enough people willing/able to command/lead extra alliances. Fact.
Well come look at it from the "oddr" point of view.
We are willing but to quote one of hour hc's that is thinking of quiting PA.

Quote:
lost all the good guys,replaced with crap,now loosing good members again and doesn't look like they are gonna be replaced,its like pissing into the wind and i am sick of getting covered in piss
And you can be assured i won't let inactive crap join oddr again, so we'll just play with 30 man tag if needed.
Not interested in training people to see them leave after 1 or 2 rounds, for the likes of nd - app - asc - p3n whom can provide "safety in numbers".
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Unread 14 May 2010, 20:41   #23
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by ellonweb View Post
Yes there are a lack of players, but the bigger issue is there are a lack of people willing and able to command/lead an alliance.

I see retarded arguments from some alliance HCs that the limits are too big and it's too hard for them to organise a big alliance, and why can't we have smaller alliances as it's much easier to organise smaller alliances?

This is a very selfish viewpoint. Sure it might be easier for you to run a 50 man alliance, but who's going to organise the other 50 members that you just kicked out? Furthermore, most people will agree, the amount of HCs/officers/whatever you need per peon decreases as your total memberbase increases.

Another point: if you really can't afford to take in any more peons, then don't. You don't have to reach the alliance limit just because it's there.
You know what's really retarded to assume people that become HC don't want more members. question is do we hand all the active people to 5 allies max with this 100 tag limit or distribute them amongst 10 alliance wich would be the case with a 50 tag limit.

We simply don't have the playerbase to go for 100 tag alliances except that and move on to a lower tag limit. What's happening now just annoys more players then you think not to mention it will become even harder to attack top 5 alliances or there planets. If it stays like this just take away XP so top 5 allies can go all for value and the rest won't be bothered to play this game anymore.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 20:48   #24
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Re: Alliance player limit

i agree with donar. This game is becoming more and more insular due to the various little inner circles and fanclubs in the top allies. You will just end up with a 5 ally game if pa continues in its current trend .

I dont understand why Appocomaster has decide on a 100 tag limit with 50 counting to score - surely everyone should count to score or just make the tag limit 50.


People have said that if ally limits are smaller then friends wont be able to play together but maybe some of these friends would enjoy the chance to play against each other to see who is better.

Also 10 50 man allys would make for better politics and definate more varied gameplay especially if friends were spread throughout different allies trying to second guess each and pretempt each others next move
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Unread 14 May 2010, 21:08   #25
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Re: Alliance player limit

Since round 23 we've had wildly varying alliance limits, from 60 to 100. Not once has the number of alliances who ended with more than 40 members dropped below 10 and it has gone over 13 only once, during a free round (27). I'm sorry, but the data just does not support the conclusion that lower alliance limits cause more alliances to appear.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 14 May 2010 at 21:17.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 21:17   #26
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Since round 23 we've had wildly varying alliance limits, from 60 to 100. Not once has the number of alliances who ended with more than 40 members dropped below 10 and it has gone over 13 only once, during a free round (27). I'm sorry, but the data just does not support the conclusion that lower alliance limits cause more alliances to appear
I don't know if your reading this right, it's not about letting more alliances to appear. it's those we already do have to give them a chance to compete.
Seeing the format as it is now allies closest to tag limit will have an even bigger advantage. A large defpool to get def from and bash in to gals of weaker alliances even more.

It will all come down to a war of nutrition, bigger numbers means win, makes pa boring because in the end good quality players in smaller allies would have to be nuts to take a beating like that. wich will make them want to go for bigg allies with large numbers.

You'd have to be nuts to even want to start one this round, good luck kaiba and hexx
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Unread 14 May 2010, 21:33   #27
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Re: Alliance player limit

After being refuted by mz's data, can all you illiterate homos stop posting and actually read jesters post which I linked to already, before spouting all this nonsense again and again and again and again and again and again ....
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Unread 14 May 2010, 21:57   #28
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
After being refuted by mz's data, can all you illiterate homos stop posting and actually read jesters post which I linked to already, before spouting all this nonsense again and again and again and again and again and again ....
If you have nothing better to do then insult people please stop posting or end your live.

Seeing that i already had read that post and don't find it to be usefull to my point of view in any way i won't regard it as something i can use to make my point. Btw reading my post is much easier and doesn't take up an hour to read for us illeterate homos.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 22:02   #29
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Re: Alliance player limit

Nonsense are all the ridiculous people that believe the 100 man tag is good.please invent more lies and figures to back up the bullshit,simple fact is if 100 tag never came in last round this round come we would still have ROCK its also most likly that subh and xvx vgn would have full tags too.Maybe more.
Too much compitition maybe i laugh to compare alliances to corparations trying to tie the market up nice and tight for themselves.How dare new alliances attempt to believe they can enter the market and try get involved in some action,this game will die and it fools sitting on there high perches who are oblivious to the obvious facts YOUR KILLING ALLIANCES keep preaching bollox fools.
Since your blind to this you can come back with some smart bullshit to say but in the end you will see where it got ****ed,ill laugh the day a alliance with 20 members finish top 10,it wont be long at this rate.Stick those figures up your ass and come down and have a look at the broad sheme of things.
Maybe the plan is too have less than 10 alliances soon,good job
This is a futile arguement anyways when people delude themselves without knowing one thing about it.
Please now someone whos never been outside the top 5 alliances make another ridiculous remark,i wont be bothered reading it.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 22:10   #30
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donar View Post
Seeing that i already had read that post and don't find it to be usefull to my point of view in any way i won't regard it as something i can use to make my point.
So you ignore data and arguments that dont fit into your personal little opinion of the way reality should work? I honestly don't know what to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg View Post
Nonsense are all the ridiculous people that believe the 100 man tag is good.please invent more lies and figures to back up the bullshit,simple fact is if 100 tag never came in last round this round come we would still have ROCK its also most likly that subh and xvx vgn would have full tags too.Maybe more.
Too much compitition maybe i laugh to compare alliances to corparations trying to tie the market up nice and tight for themselves.How dare new alliances attempt to believe they can enter the market and try get involved in some action,this game will die and it fools sitting on there high perches who are oblivious to the obvious facts YOUR KILLING ALLIANCES keep preaching bollox fools.
Since your blind to this you can come back with some smart bullshit to say but in the end you will see where it got ****ed,ill laugh the day a alliance with 20 members finish top 10,it wont be long at this rate.Stick those figures up your ass and come down and have a look at the broad sheme of things.
Maybe the plan is too have less than 10 alliances soon,good job
This is a futile arguement anyways when people delude themselves without knowing one thing about it.
Please now someone whos never been outside the top 5 alliances make another ridiculous remark,i wont be bothered reading it.
Really, I can't make heads or tails of your post. We post arguments and evidence here, and all you do is just sit there with your fingers in your ears going "LALALA". What's the point?
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Unread 14 May 2010, 22:14   #31
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Re: Alliance player limit

so... i have just read jesters magical post...

I actually understand what he is saying but it has no bearing in theory because it is veiwed from the perspective of people who have played nearly all there pa careers in top allies. For the rest of us (the ones who aim to fighting it out for 10th place this round) we are the lifeblood of pa, we may not dominate the top ranks, we may not be the best dc's or the greatest politicans but **** me we have fun and were the alliances that every new player to this game is sent to when they join iRC or looking on the forums.

The hilarious thing in particular that you beleive 100 man tags is a good thing for pa, im completely bemused how you come to this conclusion when all the top allies do is end up napping each other and valuewhoring for score.

As i think the majority of ppl in this game (and yes that prolly now doesnt include the top players as there are so far up there own asses they have entered a magical world of there own) understand it to be a warbased strategy game with alliance game play - one of the main tools of war is to attack and every round should be a fresh start and a level playing feild for all allainces to start from regardless of game skills or activity.

Now if you had 10 allainces at a full tag of 50 this would as i said before create larger options for variety every round would enable friends to play against each other, form different teams and actually have some fun with pa.


But this wont happen, we all know this - you big players have the pa team in your pocket and it seems your hellbent on making yourselves so far seperated from the majority that you will end up with a completely seperate game just for you guys


Maybe its time for the pa team to wake up and listen to the masses (the 800 players who arent in a top 5 ally) and for once disregard the elitist bullshit spouted by the minority!!!
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Unread 14 May 2010, 22:15   #32
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
So you ignore data and arguments that dont fit into your personal little opinion of the way reality should work? I honestly don't know what to say.



Really, I can't make heads or tails of your post. We post arguments and evidence here, and all you do is just sit there with your fingers in your ears going "LALALA". What's the point?
I find it hard to believe you don't know what to say.

I don't see jester making any statements that would solve the problems we have in PA. everytime he makes a statement he also makes one saying how it might go wrong. Those aren't solutions that are usefull to make this game better and more competitive. lowering tag limits might do this and brings atleast some life back in to this game.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 22:18   #33
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Re: Alliance player limit

He actually discussed that as well, and explained why it doesn't work.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 22:28   #34
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Re: Alliance player limit

actually no mz he doesnt he says why he thinks it doesnt work he doesnt make it out to be fact, i think his point is flawed because with 50 man tags u can have more alliances making there way up to the top - it may be gradual but as the rounds continue weaker players will be filtered out and better players will be in the majority - which would make a 2 ally game into a 3 ally game and then down the line to 4 and 5 and 6 as ppl join and ppl improve.

Whereas with 100 man tags the top allys will just keep recruiting the best players out of the allainces up to 100 and the game will remaina 2 alliance game for a long time


Plus with only 50 man tags you can have more rivalry as there might be resentment for being kicked from a 50 man ally for not quit ebeing up to scratch and then new politics emerge and revenge is always fun to watch in a war based game


If you dont agree with this point of veiw would you please constructively explain why, i would like a proper response rather than just the usual flaming and trolling that happens on these boards
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Unread 14 May 2010, 22:45   #35
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Re: Alliance player limit

I have done so here, here and here. And that's just in this thread, I've done it many times before. (And yes, I agree that people should relax a little in this thread.)
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Unread 14 May 2010, 22:55   #36
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Re: Alliance player limit

Im all for 50man tags, not removing alliance tags. Lets be honest, Ascendancy won round 30 by recruiting every man and its dog. 120+ players in the end. Not many alliances can have 100 players and be effiecient, so why give them the option to mass recruit.

Personally i think its far better for the community as a whole if each player in a group is treated as an individual, not as a planet in the mass. This gets hard once you go over 50 people who should all be fighting for the same goal. The argument about denying nubs the chance to learn the game, by making the alliance limit lower, is bullshit. Atleast in apprime the alliance limits never stopped us from taking in less experienced players and teach them our way to play. something that will also be done for the coming round.
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Unread 14 May 2010, 22:57   #37
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I have done so here, here and here. And that's just in this thread, I've done it many times before. (And yes, I agree that people should relax a little in this thread.)
In reference to the third here would it not be safe to say tho that setting the tag limit to 50 would make the allys in the top 10 stronger in comparision to the current top 10 - you cant say ASS is one of the top 10 strongest alliances in this game for example - its there sheerly on volume rather than substance. If you could only have say 50 ppl in ND then there would using last rounds numbers be 35 -40 ppl who would have to find another alliance and this is the case for most of the top 4-5 which would obviously create a stronger top10 and possibly a stronger top 15. Which would make the game harder to win as an alliance which might in turn bring some excitement and anticipation back into the game along with some new HC's who may turn out amazing

Plus it might help the undertagged alliances (ie. GROSS) be more competitive within the round it would be down more to the best players rather than the most actives which is how it currently seems

Btw incase Puss reads this im not bashing ASS just used you as an example
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Unread 15 May 2010, 01:20   #38
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Re: Alliance player limit

I agree with most of Jesters original post, not too surprising since I've originated some of those arguments, mostly in PIA.

Essentially this debate boils down to two questions, what is good for the future of the game, and what it good for promoting competition between alliances. In some cases, these two viewpoints may be seen to conflict with each other, however I don't believe that needs to be the case.

The core argument, for me, is how a new player becomes a part of the community. This may be debated, however in general I do not believe the reason people play the game is the game itself, but the community. So in essence, the game benefits from actions taken to encourage co-operative play, and easing people into this kind of co-operative play.

As I tend to put the benefit of the game first, it is then clear that actions which help ease players into the community should be prioritized. Keeping with the discussion at hand, this is then a question of what actions taken in terms of alliance size would best benefit the integration of new players into the game.

Smaller alliance tags place a higher average importance on each member. This is where Jesters introduction of the Market of Lemons comes in, however I would argue that the information asymmetry is not as great as he argues. Instead, the information that is available in fact clearly emphasizes the recruitment of certain individuals and greatly discourages taking chances, because where as each new player is a complete gamble, each known player is less of an gamble. This is akin to how real world hiring takes place, where persons who already have contacts are at a great advantage when seeking employment, regardless of merits. The punishment for taking a chance are simply too great, as Jester correctly points out.

How then does one reduce the risk to an alliance of recruiting a new player? Naturally, by reducing the impact of the decision. The greater the alliance member limit, the smaller the individual impact, and indeed the less of an alternative cost placed upon recruiting unknown players, as they are less likely to take the place which would otherwise have gone to another known player.

Having only a limited amount of players count towards the alliance score further reduces the risk of recruiting unknown players, as even if they do not pan out, they are in the part of the alliance which does not count towards the score, and are as such "risk-free". However, as long as there is a limit on alliance size there is still some alternative cost for taking on unknown players, as a greater amount of quality players hedges against the chance that any one of them performs under expectations, for whatever reason.

The only true way of removing this alternative cost placed on taking chances on unknown players, is to remove the alliance member limit completely. As such, every recruit is worth the risk, so far as the alliance can comfortably fit them into their organization. At this point, the limit on players who count towards the score only serves to reduce the advantage that a alliance gains from having more members, however due to the hedging, it does not completely negate it.

As Jester stated, further removing the limit on how many members count towards the score would increase the incentive alliances have to recruit more members. Often it is assumed that they do so at the expense of small community alliances, however this is unlikely to be the case due to a number of reasons.

Firstly, the top alliances will still tend to recruit known players, as running a large alliance requires greater absolute effort, although arguably a lesser relative effort, then running a small alliance. Therefor, each member they add has to have an expectancy of being to their net benefit, given the increased need for leadership, primarily in terms of a greater number of officers. They will tend to recruit players they already know, which given the state of the game would primarily be focused outwards or indeed to some former members who are playing less actively in smaller alliances.

However, in general the reason small alliances are small is not because the evil top alliance are hindering their growth. If they truly were able to offer competitive leadership and organization, barring a initial startup cost which all alliances face, they would be able to poach members just as well from the larger alliances as in this proposed scenario the larger alliances would be able to poach from them. If indeed you argue that a alliance member limit of 50 would double the amount of alliances that fill the tag as opposed to when the limit is 100, there would already exist 10 alliances with comparative tag sizes. The upper limit is simply that, an upper limit, it is not a requirement for competing. Instead, the limiting factor is, and always has been, good leadership. Smaller alliances require more absolute leadership, especially more HC's, and there simply isn't enough to cater to more than a handful of competitive alliances. Without leadership, without leaders who are capable of attracting followers, there is no reason to assume a limitation on the alliance size would encourage the number of good players to spread out onto a greater number of alliances.

Instead, the lower alliance size limit only hampers good leaders ability to attract more players to the game. It in fact creates a disincentive for good leaders to try and convince more people to play the game.

Now, as for being competitive and recruiting to victory, this assumption hinges on the fact that more players is automatically a competitive edge. However, with each added player, the expected performance of that player will naturally be lower than that of each previous player, as otherwise they would have been added earlier. As such, the long term advantage of each additional player in terms of an alliances ability to compete diminishes constantly.

If indeed one alliance is capable of recruiting a larger number of higher quality members, then a competing alliance has an incentive to try and match that advantage either by recruiting a smaller number of greater quality players, a similar amount of similar quality players, or a greater amount of weaker players. If these options fail, further political tools are available to the alliance in order to correct the balance. Whomever is capable of swinging the balance in their favor, will be the winner. This take account of all the capabilities which a good alliance requires; individual skill, leadership, organization, military tactics and political savvy. As such, it is hard to argue that the best all-around alliance would in fact under these conditions not prevail. It may be added, that this is counteracted by the current XP system, as Jester also stated, although I do not agree with his proposed solution due to fundamental differences of opinion as to what is good for the game and how to achieve this.

Now, as it has been established that alliance competition is not hurt by removing the alliance size limit, quite the contrary in fact, and that the ability of second tier alliance to compete is also not hurt by this, the only question left to answer is what the effects of this would be for new players and increasing the playerbase.

Where as it is clear that removing the alliance size limit would create pressure upon top alliances to convince more old players to return, and thus increase the playerbase, we have not yet established how this effects the integration of new players into the community. Naturally, there are some further actions which should be taken to ease the path of new players into alliances, however no such changes can ever have a true positive effect unless those alliances are first capable of taking them in. The alliances most applicable for this are the large community based alliances. Incidentally, these are also the alliances which are hurt the most by a lower limit on alliance size. Their further ability to take in new players is literally limited by the alliance size limit. Now where as it might be contended that second tier alliances might take on more of these new players in order to compensate, again it is evident that they have not been able or willing to do so, or they would indeed have done so. For an alliance incapable of filling its tag, there is no negative impact of recruiting new unknown players, so if they could they already would, but they can't, so they have not. As such, for the integration of new players into the community, letting an alliance such as ND recruit more new players and teach them the game would be in the interest of the game.

Essentially, when advocating lower alliance size limits, the second tier alliances are only hurting themselves, as they are hurting the recruiting alliances. Without large alliances able and willing to recruit new players, the flow of new players wanting to prove themselves has stopped dead. These are the exact players who are likely at some point to leave the community/recruitment alliance for a smaller better run unit. However, they are also not well known enough to break into the top tier of alliances, so they are likely to join second tier alliances in order to prove their worth. The second tier alliances offer an opportunity for these players to more easily try their hand at new functions, such as being an officer and contributing to the alliance. If they wish for further challenges, they may later seek to join one of the top alliances. Some may go back to being members of community alliances. And again in a few cases, a second tier alliance may grow with its new members and improve gradually, moving them over time into the top tier of alliances.

The alliance size limit is only harmful. It has no benefits. It harms the game, it limits the means by which alliances are able to compete and it distorts the natural progression of players within the game.

It should be revoked.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 01:25   #39
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Re: Alliance player limit

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I know this floats around before every round, but I still suggest lowering the max player amount of alliances for r37.

100? I mean c'mon, our player base isn't nearly big enough to support multiple 100 player alliances. I know only 60 players contribute to the score, but that doesn't change much.

50 max imo, maybe even smaller?
Maybe zPeti makes some effort to advertise this game and get some more players (facebook anyone? cant be that hard to port this game into facebook when every small idiot 1 man company manages to do this).
Supposed he still owns this game and is alive ofc.

2 rounds over and yet we have to wait for improvements.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 01:31   #40
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Re: Alliance player limit

hmm..another good post, however.

i remember when there was no alliance limits and the top alliances were just stupidly bigger than anyone else and won easily. but, at the same time, there were alot more players then.

now i dont know if these 2 facts are connected or not, but it seems like removing alliance limits for a round or 3 would be worth it to see what happens.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 03:13   #41
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Re: Alliance player limit

When there wasn't an alliance limit and defence was 'free for all', i.e. round 1 to 9.5 or so, the top alliances were more valued on military power. Titans is a good example of a 'small' yet very powerful alliance. Fury and Legion dominated round 3, which had 180 000 planets (no bash limit though) with under 300 people in total.

I hope this shines some light on the issues you were raising.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 03:42   #42
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Re: Alliance player limit

What Theam is trying to say, is that if the alliance rankings don't reflect what the top alliances feel is the true order, then they'll ignore the rankings and go by their own measurements, and their own goals. Kind of like how nobody "in the know" considered the random-gals the proper winners of rnd36.

However, ideally the rankings should reflect the opinions of the alliances, as otherwise they add nothing to the game.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 03:53   #43
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Re: Alliance player limit

Actually that I was not trying to say, but it is a valid point, what I am trying to say is that although at the start of a round you can outrecruit people, at some point you just can recruit all you want, but you will lose out. Remember 10 4 and 12 3 only being able to hit 16 planets or so in the top 5 random galaxies? And outscoring most of those galaxies?
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Unread 15 May 2010, 04:56   #44
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Re: Alliance player limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donar View Post
If you have nothing better to do then insult people please stop posting or end your live.

Seeing that i already had read that post and don't find it to be usefull to my point of view in any way i won't regard it as something i can use to make my point. Btw reading my post is much easier and doesn't take up an hour to read for us illeterate homos.
Wait. What?
What is wrong is exactly wrong with the post and what is exactly your point?
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Unread 15 May 2010, 05:05   #45
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
Firstly, the top alliances will still tend to recruit known players, as running a large alliance requires greater absolute effort, although arguably a lesser relative effort, then running a small alliance. Therefor, each member they add has to have an expectancy of being to their net benefit, given the increased need for leadership, primarily in terms of a greater number of officers. They will tend to recruit players they already know, which given the state of the game would primarily be focused outwards or indeed to some former members who are playing less actively in smaller alliances.
Every step you say seems logical and then to still reach a wrong conclusion blows my mind.

lets take it from the smaller alliances point of view again.
We will lose our "known players" and are forced to recruit from the pool of noobs wich we train again for 1 or 2 rounds. whom then are "known to the bigger alliance and we will lose them again.

Quote:
However, in general the reason small alliances are small is not because the evil top alliance are hindering their growth. If they truly were able to offer competitive leadership and organization, barring a initial startup cost which all alliances face, they would be able to poach members just as well from the larger alliances as in this proposed scenario the larger alliances would be able to poach from them.
now you are really grasping, many 2nd tier alliances have competent leadership and officers.
what makes leadership great though is the competence of the men below you.

This is starting to feel like a pointless discussion anyway do what you ****ing like. see how long those 2nd tier alliances and there players will last (not like we lost many over the past couple of rounds) .
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Unread 15 May 2010, 06:02   #46
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by HeimdallR View Post
Every step you say seems logical and then to still reach a wrong conclusion blows my mind.

lets take it from the smaller alliances point of view again.
We will lose our "known players" and are forced to recruit from the pool of noobs wich we train again for 1 or 2 rounds. whom then are "known to the bigger alliance and we will lose them again.

now you are really grasping, many 2nd tier alliances have competent leadership and officers.
what makes leadership great though is the competence of the men below you.

This is starting to feel like a pointless discussion anyway do what you ****ing like. see how long those 2nd tier alliances and there players will last (not like we lost many over the past couple of rounds) .
And what if my conclusions are not wrong?

First of all, there is a very clear difference in the quality of leadership between first tier and second tier alliances. There's a reason why only a handful of people have ever lead first tier alliances, and seldom does even a first tier alliance have truly great HC's to fill each of the essential roles. Leadership is a rare combination of innate abilities and learned practices. Take a real world example, such as headhunting, where by companies are so strapped for great leadership talent that they are hunted down from other companies, that some companies make their money simply facilitating this service of finding leaders. Better yet, if we go back in time to the first half of the 20th century, companies used to acquire smaller companies in order to get the company CEO and install him as a manager within the parent company. Literally it was easier for them to BUY COMPANIES than to train new leaders. That should help put this in perspective for you.

Secondly, my point was that second tier alliances are not fit to handle large volumes of new players, and all the alliance size limit is doing is forcing these new players into the second tier alliances, which do not have a mentality fit for this kind of work. If instead these new players were part of a alliance which has more experience with recruiting new players, then they could be nurtured here and could provide the second tier alliances with more replenishment of their playerbase. Arguing for smaller alliances does not help you, because the large portion of players who would not fit into the top tier alliances would regardless not join the second tier alliances, or would do so with no loyalty what so ever, essentially just using you to defleech.

It is not in the second tier alliances interest to limit the alliance size, it is only in the interest of a select few elite alliances to limit the toolkit available to other alliances, forcing them to play in a way which puts them at a disadvantage.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 06:06   #47
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Re: Alliance player limit

its alright, i understand, your just not getting it, or are not willing to see it from our point of view.

continuing this discussion is pointless.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 06:15   #48
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Re: Alliance player limit

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Originally Posted by HeimdallR View Post
its alright, i understand, your just not getting it, or are not willing to see it from our point of view.

continuing this discussion is pointless.
Is it not equally pointless if you assume you're correct, regardless of evidence to the contrary?

As I stated, if second tier alliances truly had no leadership deficit compared to top alliances, they would be able to poach members from top alliances just as well as the other way around. It's rather pointless to argue against this, as each time a new top tier alliance is formed, such as Apprime most recently, it poaches members straight from the top tier alliances. It is possible, it's simply a matter of very few people being able to do so, very few people inspire people to follow them in such a way, and can then follow this up with the necessary strengths in leadership to retain these players.

The problem isn't new, and the argument that there isn't enough leaders to support more top level alliances has been around for at least half the decade.
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Unread 15 May 2010, 08:16   #49
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Re: Alliance player limit

First of all: I am not a lemon. This is not a lemon market.

History has shown that we need alliance limits to increase the amount of alliances competing for the top ranks and prevent the creation of ever larger blocks. It was a choice to go for quality over quantity and I am convinced that still is the right choice.

History also has shown that new alliances continue to be created and old ones die. Higher alliance limits will kill some of the smaller alliances, while reducing limits allows more alliances to be created. This does not mean we should continuously reduce alliance limits to chase people away from the top alliances to the smaller ones. Your alliance needs to find its own reason to exist.
I personally feel that 100 members is too much, but the current system where not every member counts to a certain extent allows alliances to go for quality, have fewer than 100 members and still be competitive. I think that is a positive thing.

I think that what killed the smaller alliances this round was not alliance sizes, but private galaxies. This led to politics where all the larger alliances avoided each other. The smaller alliances were unable to protect their members in private galaxies.

If you cannot compete for the top you have to set yourself different goals. This round Conspiracy was a second tier alliance, even though we were the best of them. We knew we could not compete for #1 alliance. So we went for #1 galaxy. We only got over the 50 member limit because (1) the other 2nd tier alliances got raped even harder than we and lost members (2) we had members in random galaxies where we recruited everybody who 'even vaguely resembled a lemon'. There are no downsides to filling your basket with as many lemons as you can fit in it. These lemons are free. We wanted the people in the top galaxies and recruited them. We couldn't even find 100 lemons.

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Unread 15 May 2010, 08:53   #50
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Re: Alliance player limit

If we leave the Alliance limits at 100 it makes the game who can get to a full tag will win. If you wanted to stay at 100 man alliances then up the scored total to 100, instead of letting only 1/2 the alliance be counted. Essentially that allows a 1st tier alliance to have 50 "serious" players and 50 support planets. Which in our current environment of 8+ man team ups just to try and land on planets, only makes it harder to attack. If PA gets to a point where people cant attack because there's too much defense or just too many planets in an alliance to draw defense from then we shouldn't call it a war game anymore and just call it, "I like to gang rape 5 planets a night"

If we reduce the ally limit to 50 then it will send those 50 other players down to alliances that don't have a full tag, or even better some of them would create there own alliances and help diversify the field.

Who honestly thinks that 100 man tags is a good thing all I see if people bitching and complaining on this forum or people that support smaller tag size. So instead of just flaming and being retarded then gather yourself and make a coherent argument.
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