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Unread 27 Jul 2005, 22:40   #1
All Systems Go
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Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

and it's all recorded in the Bible!

Quote:
The destruction of the temple and desolation of Jerusalem, precisely as predicted, has implications for both religious and atheist alike. If (like me) you were indoctrinated by one of these beliefs, you will be tempted to ignore this evidence as the Christians did to Galileo and the Atheists did to Schliemann; I urge you not to repeat that tragic mistake on a personal level.

The dispute between atheism and religion is rooted in the history of ancient Israel. The goal is to reduce that seemingly imponderable subject to a logical explanation, based on this essential truth:

The Bible is not a handbook for religion, nor is it myth; it's verifiable history.
they call themselves 'The International Society of Realists' which I think is pretty ironic.

Seriously, has anyone heard of this guy before? Because I think he's watched one too many episodes of Stargate SG1....

http://www.realists.org/
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Unread 27 Jul 2005, 22:47   #2
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

He may well be a crackpot (and probably is), but there are some things knocking about from the ancient world that are pretty interesting, such as images in an Egyptian temple that remarkably resemble a helicopter, there's stuff about anti-gravity drive in some ancient Indian tablet (i think, could be from something else) and not forgetting the pictures of "aliens" and UFO's in the background of images made through the ages. :)
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Unread 27 Jul 2005, 22:54   #3
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Time travelling Snurxes are to blame for all that.
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Unread 27 Jul 2005, 22:57   #4
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Stargate (and thence SG-1) was directly inspired by crackpot Egyptologists.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 10:26   #5
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

i've just bought "Asimovs guide to the bible" and have read about the first hundred pages.
VERY interesting although it's still explaining Genesis.
A lot of it is verifiable history but the problem is that it was written and rewritten a number of times by different people with different viewpoints.
Replace names with their meanings (Cain = blacksmith, Abel = nomad, Adam = mankind) and realise that individuals named represent tribes, a lot of it is written 1000 years later, it's from various viewpoints etc etc and it all starts making a lot of sense!
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 15:28   #6
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

yes - Isaac Asimov. it's about the bible suprisingly enough
it's non-fiction if that's what you meant. he's also done a guide to science and a guide to Shakespeare which could be interesting.
You can buy them on Amazon.

There are so many incidences in the bible that are obviously not literal that it would take ages to point them all out. I really can't understand how anyone actually believes it is 100% literal.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 15:35   #7
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

I can't believe how anyone can think that it's all of one thing. Either it's all true or it's all made up. You could split it up into the Old and New testanments and say one is fiction while the other is fact, but to say that fact and fiction are mixed randomly throughout and that only the bits which make sense to us are facts seems absurd.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 15:43   #8
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I can't believe how anyone can think that it's all of one thing. Either it's all true or it's all made up. You could split it up into the Old and New testanments and say one is fiction while the other is fact, but to say that fact and fiction are mixed randomly throughout and that only the bits which make sense to us are facts seems absurd.
the new and old aren't seperate though, the new references heavily to the old (mark->john anyway) and the old references events that happen in the new, so a seperation of the two into fact/fiction would be silly as you'd be saying that this book of fact refers to a load of fiction, and vice versa.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 15:54   #9
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

The strongest proof of all is watching Chika post on these forums.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 16:09   #10
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I can't believe how anyone can think that it's all of one thing. Either it's all true or it's all made up. You could split it up into the Old and New testanments and say one is fiction while the other is fact, but to say that fact and fiction are mixed randomly throughout and that only the bits which make sense to us are facts seems absurd.
That's a stupidly simplistic view. You have to assume that the people who wrote it were incapable of allegory or metaphor, or that all of the bible was written at the same time as the events that it depicts - that it wasn't a transcript of an oral tradition.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 16:25   #11
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
That's a stupidly simplistic view. You have to assume that the people who wrote it were incapable of allegory or metaphor, or that all of the bible was written at the same time as the events that it depicts - that it wasn't a transcript of an oral tradition.
It is simplistic but is basically correct. If you take the Bible to be the true word of God then you should obey it all, otherwise you are saying God is wrong.

If you believe the Bible is a collection of stories that are designed to get certain messages across then it seems a bit rich to say I believe 'x' is true and all the rest is made up.

But as you have described, the writing of the Bible was very incoherent. therefore 'fact' and 'fiction' are highly mixed and there is no way to separate the two. So if you just go through and pick the bits you want to believe based on personal opinion then all you are doing is using this religious text to validate your own beliefs and actions.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 16:41   #12
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
It is simplistic but is basically correct. If you take the Bible to be the true word of God then you should obey it all, otherwise you are saying God is wrong.

If you believe the Bible is a collection of stories that are designed to get certain messages across then it seems a bit rich to say I believe 'x' is true and all the rest is made up.

But as you have described, the writing of the Bible was very incoherent. therefore 'fact' and 'fiction' are highly mixed and there is no way to separate the two. So if you just go through and pick the bits you want to believe based on personal opinion then all you are doing is using this religious text to validate your own beliefs and actions.
That's not what you said though. You said "I can't believe how anyone can think". You didn't narrow it down to christians - and even then, it's only "true" christians who would have to follow that, like how true scientists can't be christians.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 17:01   #13
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
That's not what you said though. You said "I can't believe how anyone can think". You didn't narrow it down to christians - and even then, it's only "true" christians who would have to follow that, like how true scientists can't be christians.
I was refering to the Bible and therefore Chistianity. It could be interpreted that I was refering to Judaism to an extent as well, but I doubt it.

If you aren't a 'true christian' then what are you?

"Oh, I like the sound of Christianity so I'm going to call myself a Christian without actually finding out what it means to be one."

It's like voting for a political party because the leader has a nice voice and says lots of nice things but doesn't say anything specific.

If you've not read the Bible can you really call yourself a Christian?

If you belive it is the literal word of God then you have to read the Bible and follow it the letter.

If you believe it is a book of metaphors then you have more leeway, but you still can't pick and choose what is fact and what is fiction.

As for the nonsense about scientists, they are able to be Christians if they accept the book is full of metaphors, but if they start to take what is written in the Bible over what scientific study emperically concludes then they cannot really call themselves scientists if the Bible takes precendence.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 17:16   #14
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

why on earth cant you "pick and choose" what you want to believe and still call yourself a Xian. If a certain part of it seems more likely than another part it doesnt mean you think god is wrong, just that one of the many thousands of people who have translated the bible over the millenia has made a mistake or changed it on purpose. It has nothing whatsoever to do with god.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 17:22   #15
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

there's nothing stopping you from doing it but
Quote:
if you just go through and pick the bits you want to believe based on personal opinion then all you are doing is using this religious text to validate your own beliefs and actions.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 17:24   #16
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

i know you SAID that, but i also know that its an idiotic statement.

If you actually take a critical eye towards it instead of "using it to validate your personal opinions" then it should be manageable.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 17:37   #17
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Well it really depends on what you mean by critical eye. If it has a very clear instruction saying to do something you believe is wrong, do you just ignore it because it doesn't fit what you think Xianism should be about? Even if you follow the rest of it can you really call yourself a Xianist?

How do you differentiate between metaphor and nonsnese and how wide can your interretation be?
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 19:14   #18
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

personally i think its best to think its all nonsense unless it seems like it isnt. Thats pretty much the way to view a document such as the bible, which as I and mrl have said has been changed such a huge number of times it probably bears very little resemblance to the original.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 19:38   #19
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

that's all good and well from a scientific point of view, but not so good if you are looking at it in a religious light. Jesus was supposed to be the son of god and could walk on water, cure the sick etc...

Whether you believe that or not is a matter of faith. If you do believe it then you believe God is capable of defying the laws of the universe (which you would probably believe anyway). this makes it more difficult to differentiate between these miricles and, for example, the creation stories in the old testement.

How can you believe in one miracle and not another or decide which are metaphors and which are accurate accounts of actual events.

Yes, the Bible has been chaged loads of times and there are scriptures missing and mistranslations and the lot of it, so how can you work out what bits a 'real' and which aren't?

At the end of the day it all comes down to faith. Personally, I don't believe a word of it but I do think there are some good morals in amongst the crap. But if I did believe in the Christian God and thought the Bible was the literal word of God and didn't follow it then I would believe that I was condemning myself to hell.

Seeing as Jesus could predict the future you would think that he would have picked the most reliable people to make sure his message was written down in the correct way to save mankind.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 19:41   #20
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apothos
He may well be a crackpot (and probably is), but there are some things knocking about from the ancient world that are pretty interesting, such as images in an Egyptian temple that remarkably resemble a helicopter, there's stuff about anti-gravity drive in some ancient Indian tablet (i think, could be from something else) and not forgetting the pictures of "aliens" and UFO's in the background of images made through the ages.
You are correct, although I feel I must correct you on the "Indian tablet". The Ancient Indian's had an oral tradition, know as "Vedic Literature", and it contains hundreds and hundreds of references to ufo's, aliens, atomic weapons, rockets, grenades, airplanes, boats et ceter. The one I think you are reffering to is The Mahabharata
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mahabharata
"When the shell hit the ground, the darkness covered the sky, twisters and storms leveled the towns. A horrible blast burnt thousands of animals and people to ashes. Peasants, townspeople and warriors dived in the river to wash away the poisonous dust."

"two storey sky chariots with many windows, ejecting red flame, that race up into the sky until they look like comets . . . to the regions of both the sun and the stars."
Only seven years after the first successful atom bomb blast in New Mexico, Dr. Robert Oppenheimer (1904-1967) Scientist, philosopher, bohemian, and radical. A theoretical physicist and the Supervising Scientist of the Manhattan Project, who was familiar with ancient Sanskrit literature, was giving a lecture at Rochester University. During the question and answer period a student asked a question to which Oppenheimer gave a strangely qualified answer:

Student: Was the bomb exploded at Alamogordo during the Manhattan Project the first one to be detonated?

Dr. Oppenheimer: "Well -- yes. In modern times, of course.

A good plance online to to do some further reading if you are interested: http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Vimanas.htm
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 21:46   #21
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. Cheers for the link. :)
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 21:52   #22
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I can't believe how anyone can think that it's all of one thing. Either it's all true or it's all made up. You could split it up into the Old and New testanments and say one is fiction while the other is fact, but to say that fact and fiction are mixed randomly throughout and that only the bits which make sense to us are facts seems absurd.
I only speak English so I cant verify this, but I was told that the fact/fiction distinction is a lot clearer in the original Hebrew than it is in translations. Allegorical books like Genesis are apparently written in an a certain style of poetry which was often used for myths, whereas books which are meant to be historical are written in an entirely different style.

In order to understand the Bible you'd have to know a LOT about its historical context, what words and passages meant at the time it was written, and so on. If you cant read Hebrew and Ancient Greek, that would involve engaging heavily with the volumes of exegenis produced over the last 2000 years. You cant just pick up a Bible and expect to understand it, no matter what most modern Christians seem to believe.

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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 08:02   #23
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I only speak English so I cant verify this, but I was told that the fact/fiction distinction is a lot clearer in the original Hebrew than it is in translations. Allegorical books like Genesis are apparently written in an a certain style of poetry which was often used for myths, whereas books which are meant to be historical are written in an entirely different style.

In order to understand the Bible you'd have to know a LOT about its historical context, what words and passages meant at the time it was written, and so on. If you cant read Hebrew and Ancient Greek, that would involve engaging heavily with the volumes of exegenis produced over the last 2000 years. You cant just pick up a Bible and expect to understand it, no matter what most modern Christians seem to believe.
Most modern translations take all this into account. There are often extensive footnotes etc.
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 08:04   #24
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
personally i think its best to think its all nonsense unless it seems like it isnt. Thats pretty much the way to view a document such as the bible, which as I and mrl have said has been changed such a huge number of times it probably bears very little resemblance to the original.
Modern translations are drawn from the original, as far as I know.
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 08:41   #25
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Modern translations are drawn from the original, as far as I know.
Modern originals are drawn from what we take to be the original text. I doubt we have the "originals" of Genesis et al.
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 10:30   #26
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

According to Asimov it's obvious in the original Hebrew versions that the Bible was written by three different parties over about 1000 years.

The word that translates into God originally meant Gods and remnants of this polytheism remain later in the book when it says things like "You have angered us" and stuff.

I'm still waiting for the book to be delivered so can quote more accurately then. I only read the first 100 pages when I found it on a bookshelf at a friend of a friends house...
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 10:51   #27
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

I really wish people wouldn't take the Bible seriously, in whatever context. It upsets me. Just because it became fashionable for a while does not make it a "special" book filled with hidden meanings.

And as for atom bombs in ancient civilisations....you have got to be shitting me.
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 11:24   #28
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Modern originals are drawn from what we take to be the original text. I doubt we have the "originals" of Genesis et al.
I have a first edition, signed by Moses himself. I particularly like the bit where he wrote about his own death.
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 11:28   #29
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I can't believe how anyone can think that it's all of one thing. Either it's all true or it's all made up.
yeah, but what is the "truth" as it were? a spiritual truth, or a practical, literal truth. It can't be the latter because the Bible contradicts itself countless times right from the get-go if you take it literally.
Quote:
You could split it up into the Old and New testanments and say one is fiction while the other is fact, but to say that fact and fiction are mixed randomly throughout and that only the bits which make sense to us are facts seems absurd.
this is where one uses their brain. I mean, take Job for example, that is obviously not meant literally (storehouses for snow, gates holding back the sea and so on) because you use your experience of the real world to tell you that it is not literal. same goes for Genesis and so on. As others have pointed out, to really understand the Bible, you have to understand it's history, and the environment in which it was spoken, written and finally compiled.
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 13:43   #30
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

sounds like cockney rhyming slang
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 15:07   #31
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
yeah, but what is the "truth" as it were? a spiritual truth, or a practical, literal truth. It can't be the latter because the Bible contradicts itself countless times right from the get-go if you take it literally.

this is where one uses their brain. I mean, take Job for example, that is obviously not meant literally (storehouses for snow, gates holding back the sea and so on) because you use your experience of the real world to tell you that it is not literal. same goes for Genesis and so on. As others have pointed out, to really understand the Bible, you have to understand it's history, and the environment in which it was spoken, written and finally compiled.
When I refer to believing it literally I am not making a judgment on the validity of this method. What I am doing is saying that it is foolish to believe only parts of it is 'fact' in so far as al that method allows you to do is to believe what you want to believe and discount what you don't like. With any other book this would be fine, but seeing as this is supposed to be the word of God then it would seem logical to observe it all and not go to hell.

You mentioned Genesis which is the most obvious example of nonsense in the Bible. People actually try to show that the world is only 6000 years old through 'scientific' methods rather than accept that it is a load of crap. the logical conslusion of this is that the Bible is not the precise word of God and therefore should not be treated as such.
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 15:47   #32
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Re: Proof aliens ruled the Earth.....

Hasn't anyone thought of asking DM why his contributions to the bible were edited out by King John ?

If the chapters concerning Noah and the now extinct Blowjob birds were put back in, the bible may make a little more sense.
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