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27 Aug 2005, 18:37
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#51
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Banned
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: ******
Posts: 2,326
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
I suggest Synthetic_Sid.
At least I know he won't try to make some noob idea he dreamed about work.
Or maybe even Jester again.
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I'm not doing stats again. Ever.
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27 Aug 2005, 21:10
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#52
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
I suggest Synthetic_Sid.
At least I know he won't try to make some noob idea he dreamed about work.
Or maybe even Jester again.
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Last time I talked to Jester, he said he wanted to go quite a lot further with changing the races than I've done with this set of stats (iirc). If you're referring to giving each race one steal ship when you said " At least I know he won't try to make some noob idea he dreamed about work.", then I suggest you talk to people you're trying to volunteer to do next round's stats before you volunteer them.
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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27 Aug 2005, 21:31
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#53
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Over the moon
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Deeeeenmark
Posts: 547
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
I'm not doing stats again. Ever.
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Sounds like we got a volunteer, heh
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Golan - Ascendancy
Planets.
Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)
Those damn emp races..
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28 Aug 2005, 00:28
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#54
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Up The Hatters!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Nah, remove the stealers and change sentinels to FI again, that would solve abit of the problem. Also if you put phoenix back to anti co and gryphons back to anti DE you should have a pretty good situation.
For the problems with CR, make peacekeepers more powerful.
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Planetarion veteran
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28 Aug 2005, 00:47
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#55
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[Vision]
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 897
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Also if you put phoenix back to anti co and gryphons back to anti DE you should have a pretty good situation.
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If you do that and keep the Cath CO fleet the same, that weapon will pwetty much become useless for Cathaar to play with, as terrans are currently the only target they can hit with a CO fleet (and Ziks given they have enough Vipers, but you'd really need alot in that case).
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[Vision] in a lost dream, contributing to The 5th Element at present
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28 Aug 2005, 02:26
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#56
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Black Power MotherF*ckas!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: JAPAN
Posts: 1,812
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Last time I talked to Jester, he said he wanted to go quite a lot further with changing the races than I've done with this set of stats (iirc). If you're referring to giving each race one steal ship when you said "At least I know he won't try to make some noob idea he dreamed about work.", then I suggest you talk to people you're trying to volunteer to do next round's stats before you volunteer them.
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I made a suggestion. I am not the President of suggestions, so, the people I suggested should only feel flattered that I suggested them. Nothing more. Its in my opinion, that Jester or Sid can do a better job with the stats than you did. I actually like the steal ships idea tbh. But there are many other flaws.
Sadly, Jester doesn't feel like doing them. I know he got a lot of pressure last time. We really need someone else to try the stats this round.
*sigh*
This sorta feels like the Bush/Kerry election. The people you have to choose from suck, but you gotta pick somebody.
Please, someone with a brain do the stats. Don't let Appoc be our only option.
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Ascendancy
When Doves Cry
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28 Aug 2005, 06:22
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#57
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Commodore
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,176
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
Please, someone with a brain do the stats. Don't let Appoc be our only option.
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Tbh i think you are being a little harsh on Appoco. He put a significant amount of effort into the stats with very little useful feedback during the betas (as most of the people providing 'input' were intreched Ziks who were moaning about the inclusion of all race stealing). This detracted from the finer points of the stats, which are now becoming more apparent.
Though i do see where you are coming from - having a large number of people who are *able* to do stats would be ideal, as then you are in a position of selecting the best from an array of suggestions, instead of comparing the one suggestion with an "ideal" state, which is surprisingly hard to do.
But quality volunteer support atm for this game seems to be somewhat at a shortage recently...
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#Strategy ; #Support - Sovereign
--- --- ---
"The Cake is a Lie."
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28 Aug 2005, 08:03
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#58
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Black Power MotherF*ckas!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: JAPAN
Posts: 1,812
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Tbh i think you are being a little harsh on Appoco. He put a significant amount of effort into the stats with very little useful feedback during the betas (as most of the people providing 'input' were intreched Ziks who were moaning about the inclusion of all race stealing). This detracted from the finer points of the stats, which are now becoming more apparent.
Though i do see where you are coming from - having a large number of people who are *able* to do stats would be ideal, as then you are in a position of selecting the best from an array of suggestions, instead of comparing the one suggestion with an "ideal" state, which is surprisingly hard to do.
But quality volunteer support atm for this game seems to be somewhat at a shortage recently...
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I don't mean to be hard on appoc, but hopefully I made it clear that we need someone else doing the stats this round. That is true about the beta. I think the beta should be made up of about 20 or so people that you KNOW will take it seriously and look at all the races. I just think to many people voice to many different opinions about the stats. When it should be few. A team even.
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Ascendancy
When Doves Cry
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28 Aug 2005, 08:10
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#59
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Up The Hatters!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
If you do that and keep the Cath CO fleet the same, that weapon will pwetty much become useless for Cathaar to play with, as terrans are currently the only target they can hit with a CO fleet (and Ziks given they have enough Vipers, but you'd really need alot in that case).
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I thought the problem with this round was that Cath owned everybody...
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Planetarion veteran
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28 Aug 2005, 10:34
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#60
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I thought the problem with this round was that Cath owned everybody...
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If you read the thread, it was decided that they're an offensive race but weak defensively. With alliances to cover them, they're strong, but if they don't get covered very often, they die a lot easier than other races. Also, they're more targetted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
I don't mean to be hard on appoc, but hopefully I made it clear that we need someone else doing the stats this round. That is true about the beta. I think the beta should be made up of about 20 or so people that you KNOW will take it seriously and look at all the races. I just think to many people voice to many different opinions about the stats. When it should be few. A team even.
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Once you get beyond perhaps 5 people discussing stats, it becomes ridicious. I can't see how a 20 man stat team could could be organised, and that's before they all come up with different sets of stats, all of which then have to be analysed by the other 19 people, discussed, and so forth. If you want 20 people to beta test, as has been mentioned before on this thread, you need a lot more to correctly test the stats. Beta testing at speed with lots of skilled players is not a great representation of the normal game.
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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28 Aug 2005, 11:33
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#61
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saint-ciboire de tabarnac
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 244
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Re: Stat changes for R15
I heard you don't even get paid for coming up with the stats?
Even hookers in vietnam get paid wooden nickels to suck off strangers.
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28 Aug 2005, 14:40
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#62
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Stat changes for R15
None of the PA Team, mods, etc are paid, apart from Kloopy when he starts coding after his holiday. It was only in the early rounds that more than a few people got paid, and their "pay" generally never happened as they got very little money from sponsors / banners, from what I've gathered.
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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29 Aug 2005, 00:26
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#63
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Ron Burgundy
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: A glass case of emotion
Posts: 632
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Tbh appocco, this rounds stats have given a decent spread of t100 folks, so you obviously didn't do that bad a job mate.
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[/dribble]
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29 Aug 2005, 04:15
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#64
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SWaRM 4 Life
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Ottawa, CANADA
Posts: 17
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Re: Stat changes for R15
equalize pulsars and pegs init
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Kill em all and let god sort em out
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29 Aug 2005, 07:42
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#65
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Black Power MotherF*ckas!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: JAPAN
Posts: 1,812
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
If you read the thread, it was decided that they're an offensive race but weak defensively. With alliances to cover them, they're strong, but if they don't get covered very often, they die a lot easier than other races. Also, they're more targetted.
Once you get beyond perhaps 5 people discussing stats, it becomes ridicious. I can't see how a 20 man stat team could could be organised, and that's before they all come up with different sets of stats, all of which then have to be analysed by the other 19 people, discussed, and so forth. If you want 20 people to beta test, as has been mentioned before on this thread, you need a lot more to correctly test the stats. Beta testing at speed with lots of skilled players is not a great representation of the normal game.
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Sigh, i never said a 20 man stat team. See this is why you shouldn't do the stats. Because you don't pay attention.
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Ascendancy
When Doves Cry
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29 Aug 2005, 08:39
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#66
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
Sigh, i never said a 20 man stat team. See this is why you shouldn't do the stats. Because you don't pay attention.
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I wasn't sure if you meant 20 to test or to discuss stats, which is why I replied and said how both options were flawed.
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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29 Aug 2005, 12:35
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#67
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,174
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Re: Stat changes for R15
If anything, only the viper needs to be downgraded slightly.
As said before, cath are an offensive race and are supposed to have decent attack fleets. EMP imho is about right considering emped ships come home at the end of the day.
P.s. CommradeBob wins this thread
__________________
If one person is in delusion, they're called insane.
If many people are in delusion, it's called a religion.
Last edited by at0mic.c0w; 31 Aug 2005 at 18:53.
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29 Aug 2005, 23:50
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#68
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Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
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Re: Stat changes for R15
I've said before (and will now say again) that I will beta test any stats and give advice and comments. Everyone who played the private beta this round know that I love 1 minute ticks. However, I'm not especially good at making stats myself, despite best efforts between rounds 13 and 14.
Soveh for teh win!
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Finally free!
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30 Aug 2005, 16:13
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#69
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Choice of Whacker sir?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Ireland
Posts: 679
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Hi all,
Appoco i think the stats were very balanced for all races. I played ZIK this round so probably my ownly gripe is the viper. I think its was a little overpowered. It took away from the effectiveness of my fr fleet.
For other races I think all the ships were ok. I hope you use these stats next round :-)
Thanks for all your hard work,
tsm
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* thanos sets mode: -brain The_Shadow_Man
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30 Aug 2005, 17:54
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#70
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The Original Terran
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Afghan atm
Posts: 1,633
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Am always itching to have nixes as anti co but it messes up everything appoco says.
Dont like having gryphon eta 8.
__________________
introduction-Gramma
The following is a list of problems found in various places throughout the manual and game. We love you Noah!
Written by Kloopy Wed Mar 16 22:06:43 2005
Retired just for a bit....
Proud to have been 1up, SiN, Wolfpack, Bluetuba and the leader of ARK.
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30 Aug 2005, 22:51
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#71
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SiNíng is a lifestyle
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Woodenshoeland
Posts: 241
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Re: Stat changes for R15
I honestly think Appocomaster did a got job on the current stats. Although I think terran should need some more armor overall to compensate the high eta.
Also the terran DE fleet became pretty useless this far inround, since most xan's have shitloads of pulsars, giving ziks and cath (only good targets left) enough alliance and/or ingal def to counter a terran DE fleet. But I see no one bitching or moaning about that.
The stealing bit for everyone this round is nice, but I haven't stolen any DE alround since my targets always run their DE for me and haven't seen much DE used for attack (terran DE is less interesting to steal) so Wyverns are unused in that aspect. But since they have a decent amount of armor it's a good ship for attacking.
But on next round, you will have the problem that if you drop the stealing for the other races, the zikonians will become to powerfull again.
So my suggestion for next round is:
Differentiate the races more, give them more ships in their most usefull classes ( Ter: more DE and BS ships, Cath: more CO and CR, Xan. more ships in the FI and FR class, Zik should be abolished ;-))
THe thread of Ferretus is usefull in this mather.
__________________
Cloggystyle should be one of the SiNs
Now serving the DarkLords
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31 Aug 2005, 10:27
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#72
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The Original Terran
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Afghan atm
Posts: 1,633
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clogg
Also the terran DE fleet became pretty useless this far inround, since most xan's have shitloads of pulsars, giving ziks and cath (only good targets left) enough alliance and/or ingal def to counter a terran DE fleet. But I see no one bitching or moaning about that.
The stealing bit for everyone this round is nice, but I haven't stolen any DE alround since my targets always run their DE for me and haven't seen much DE used for attack (terran DE is less interesting to steal) so Wyverns are unused in that aspect. But since they have a decent amount of armor it's a good ship for attacking.
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I would say completly the opposite about using Destroyers tbh I havent had a problem landing attacks with destroyers but I do agree about landing wyverns to steal as unless you attack someone who is going do some damage to you (aka xan) with XPK/ghosts home then they always run I just want some lancers
And Ziks are pretty good to land on atm seem to nick a lot of clippers and other destroyers they have had off.
__________________
introduction-Gramma
The following is a list of problems found in various places throughout the manual and game. We love you Noah!
Written by Kloopy Wed Mar 16 22:06:43 2005
Retired just for a bit....
Proud to have been 1up, SiN, Wolfpack, Bluetuba and the leader of ARK.
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31 Aug 2005, 18:53
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#73
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Käptn Karacho
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,360
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Re: Stat changes for R15
please take the hint and stay on topic
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at0mic.c0w - #strategy
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31 Aug 2005, 19:44
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#74
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Non directed and witty
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: #ascendancy
Posts: 814
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Re: Stat changes for R15
oh and give terran some freaking anti co thats useful..
Its non stop cath co incs and you cant do a thing, xan never keep lancers home and even then you get 500 and the cath has nixes/cutters already.
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CATHAAAAAARGH
I've won 4 rounds.
I'm kinda a big deal.
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31 Aug 2005, 20:07
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#75
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thinking, that's all.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 867
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Re: Stat changes for R15
What about Xandathrii that's actually incapable of stealing Anti-CR. I'm not saying Xan get a bad deal, I actually think they do okay, Terran's no different with respect to CO. Hit Xans all round with BS/CR and you will cap good Lancers sooner or later.
Ziks with Cutlasses vs FI is exactly the same, it's the whole point of the current stats. Every race has at least one big weakness.
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[1up], Ascendancy Events Organiser & eXilition HC
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8 Sep 2005, 15:57
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#76
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Here's an attached copy of my latest stats here (apparently the previous attachment didn't work for some people)
Things in red are changed. For those who I've mailed version 4, version 5 is the same as version 4 but Sov (UN) thought it might be worth putting all the combos on a separate page, which I hadn't got around to doing yet.
People are welcome to direct all comments to me (preferably constructive ) here, forum pm, IRC, whatever.
I know furball is making his own set of stats, but I don't know if anyone else is going to modify the current stats and release them. Some of the major changes I've made are Sentinal from Co to Fi, and giving Xan a De pod class. Because of this, I've had to change the class of the Ghost and Syren, and the targetting of the Syren, Cutter, and Corsair. Other modifications are generally minor.
I've noticed once mistake (the bomber target is red when it shouldn't be) but any other mistakes are welcome.
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
Last edited by Appocomaster; 8 Sep 2005 at 16:31.
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8 Sep 2005, 17:47
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#77
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[Vision]
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 897
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Considering the Xan FR pod to DE class change. This is definatly not a good idea. At this point its hard enough to land CR fleets for Cathaar, giving Xan a DE pod fleet will make it alot harder (if not impossible) for the Roaches to effectively stun the Xan DE to land on them. Next to that another DE (flak-)class ship, the Clipper, is added as anti-CR giving even more chance on outflakking the Roach and kill enough to make the attacks not worth it. With the downgrade on the Viper the CO options reduce aswell, which effectily means that Cathaar is probably going to be a crap race next round. They are supposed to be an offensive race, but removing (or seriously limiting) their attack choices will remove that and ruin the race.
The proposed DE changes in itself are to good already, they can hit Terran for free (kill the nixes / wyverns before they fire), they can hit Zik for free by adding the Tzen (kill the Marauders / Rogues and Corsairs) and in theory (though not as effective) outflak the Roach of a Cathaar. This will make Xandathrii far to strong as their Fi fleet also receiced a addition of the Sentinels making it alot easier to outflak the Cathaar Beetle and hitting Terrans with it. It also removes the option for Terran BS to hit Xan limiting their target range aswell.
I can agree the peacekeeper could use a slight armour upgrade (as you have in those proposed stats), but much more on the DE side will affect the balance to much. The Sentinel could be added as FI, but with the adding of the highly effective and early shooting Tzen (ingal defence ahoy), and the reasonable strong and untargetted by FI(!) Cutlass, i wonder if these changes actually help. Infact i think they would do more damage than good atm, as it seems to me there isn't all that much wrong apart from the Xan Fi perhaps and the Ter Gryphon issue
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[Vision] in a lost dream, contributing to The 5th Element at present
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8 Sep 2005, 22:58
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#78
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Antagonist
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 95
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
Considering the Xan FR pod to DE class change. This is definatly not a good idea. At this point its hard enough to land CR fleets for Cathaar, giving Xan a DE pod fleet will make it alot harder (if not impossible) for the Roaches to effectively stun the Xan DE to land on them.
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really? i dont think caths currently got a bad deal with the difficulty of landing CR. caths were the most successful roiders and biggest planets for a long time (and still are really) so people built alot of anti CR. you cant guess what most people will specialise in when you set the stats :/
and if xan had a de attack fleet wouldnt they erm...attack with it? meaning no anti CR home you have to EMP?
__________________
Every dark cloud has a silver lining, But Lightning kills hundreds of people each year who are trying to find it.
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9 Sep 2005, 00:12
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#79
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[Vision]
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 897
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by teknik
really? i dont think caths currently got a bad deal with the difficulty of landing CR. caths were the most successful roiders and biggest planets for a long time (and still are really) so people built alot of anti CR. you cant guess what most people will specialise in when you set the stats :/
and if xan had a de attack fleet wouldnt they erm...attack with it? meaning no anti CR home you have to EMP?
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i am not sure from which perspective you are viewing it. I know alot of active players picked Cathaar and grew fast at the start and thus have big planets. I assume they have it a bit easier to land, but i know the medium Cathaar planets don't have it that easy. And race balance is in the final rankings not the 'during rounds' one. Due to their offensive nature (and underestimated power) they grew fast at the start but atm they are being caught up by Xan and Zik, with Terran being a bit behind.
Next to that is basing the tactic of an offensive race purely on "the target probably has his DE out" not exactly solid for making a decent race. Cathaar rely on good offence, and removing their attack options will ruin the race.
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[Vision] in a lost dream, contributing to The 5th Element at present
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9 Sep 2005, 00:34
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#80
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PGLee
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 70
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Re: Stat changes for R15
I think with the new stats, ziks become too weak against DE class ships... the Xans will kill of the ZIk's anti de before the Zik even has a chance and also terrans will feast on Ziks.
All the terran needs to do is just build pegs, chimeras, and bye bye zik...
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Rd 14 - [Hydra Officer]
Rd 15 - [eXi Officer]
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9 Sep 2005, 01:42
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#81
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Hibernating
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Team Kesha
Posts: 1,621
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Re: Stat changes for R15
stats look nice, especially with the sentinel being fi class
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[InSomnia]
Official designated driver
[ToF] - [eXilition] - [Rock] - [Denial] - [DLR] - [eVolution] - [ODDR] - [HR] - [Ultores] - [Apprime] - [Ironborn]
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9 Sep 2005, 03:27
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#82
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Ron Burgundy
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: A glass case of emotion
Posts: 632
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Id rather see an entirely new set, than a bunch of stats with only slight modifications. Reasons being, the stats changes are the only things that are really different every round, and stealing needs to be confined to the ziks again so they can have stealers in all classes and not worry about stealing chains.
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[/dribble]
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9 Sep 2005, 22:04
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#83
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by veX
Id rather see an entirely new set, than a bunch of stats with only slight modifications. Reasons being, the stats changes are the only things that are really different every round,
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Fair point, though many argue these stats seem to be fairly balanced
Quote:
and stealing needs to be confined to the ziks again so they can have stealers in all classes and not worry about stealing chains.
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These stats seem to successfully show that stealing with higher eta ships is definately one way of successfully limit stealing (especially of Fi/Co), so Zikonians don't grow so quickly. This would imply it's best to have the majority of (if not all) steal ships above fi/co class anyway, which only leaves 4 classes for steal ships anyway.
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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10 Sep 2005, 00:09
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#84
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Ron Burgundy
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: A glass case of emotion
Posts: 632
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Fair point, though many argue these stats seem to be fairly balanced
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And i am one of those many. its just that i think people might get bored quicker if they see smaller changes, regardless of balance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
These stats seem to successfully show that stealing with higher eta ships is definately one way of successfully limit stealing (especially of Fi/Co), so Zikonians don't grow so quickly. This would imply it's best to have the majority of (if not all) steal ships above fi/co class anyway, which only leaves 4 classes for steal ships anyway.
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This certainly worked, and i cant argue with your logic. Perhaps it was the lack of an eta 7 attack fleet that i really really missed. But then thats personal preferance, and due to the fact the frigs were fairly crap this round.
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[/dribble]
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10 Sep 2005, 00:20
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#85
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Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Appocomaster and Sovereign have spent their time improving this round's stats, whereas I've been working on a version where only Ziks have stealing. Once it's been officially decided what's actually happening to the stats, we'll decide which is going to be used.
Hopefully the higher powers will be kind enough to trial mine in the private betas alongside Appoco's. At the moment, however, I'm spending a lot of money on Polyfilla trying to plug all the holes
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Finally free!
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10 Sep 2005, 00:36
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#86
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Ron Burgundy
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: A glass case of emotion
Posts: 632
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Holy Moley :/
good luck btw
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10 Sep 2005, 12:04
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#87
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ND for life
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 94
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Re: Stat changes for R15
In general I quite like these stats, however there are a couple of things which I don't really like. First xan have a steal ship that can be used for defence. They are the only race other than zik who can do this and I think this could make their destroyer fleet a little too powerful. Also linked with this I don't like the fact that races other than ziks can steal other races pods, even if they are the same class. Another thing is that xan also don't have thier stealing ship as the same class as their roiding fleet but I guess that this is countered a bit by the fact that they can be sent on defence. I would prefer to see something like having the tzen moved up to destroyer class and stealing fi with pk moved down to frigate and change guardian/roach/viper targetting to de/fr/de respectively. This would make landing cruisers a little easier again as with so many de ships around it would definately be harder than it was this round.
Another little thing I don't like is the change in initiative of the beetle. With the stats as they are this would make no difference apart from with xan/cat fi/co attacking fleets, which is already strong enough without this change (it would make no difference for plain cat co fleets as there is now no anti-co fi ships at all). Especially if xans are changed to being able to steal fighters then the change makes xan fi too strong IF they can steal spids. The difference between a xan fi fleet with spids and one without would become far greater than even this round has been.
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10 Sep 2005, 12:23
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#88
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: somewhere
Posts: 130
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Re: Stat changes for R15
taking a quick glance at stats 5.0
they look good, apart from 1 thing imo, make sentinel a CO again, shooting after the arrow
but make sure the pulsar is shooting before the lancer
the rest of it looked good
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10 Sep 2005, 18:24
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#89
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Ron Burgundy
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: A glass case of emotion
Posts: 632
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Re: Stat changes for R15
And make sarabs fire before roaches, while lowering their efficiency a bit.
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10 Sep 2005, 18:40
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#90
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Non directed and witty
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: #ascendancy
Posts: 814
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Re: Stat changes for R15
looking at the stats appoco posted, is it just me or has terrans bs fleet been nuked completly :/
xans just need to build ghosts, and whats the worst the terran can do cap them after they have fired and taken big losses, this just leaves them with a ship almost the same as chims :/
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CATHAAAAAARGH
I've won 4 rounds.
I'm kinda a big deal.
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10 Sep 2005, 19:48
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#91
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Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by derry
taking a quick glance at stats 5.0
they look good, apart from 1 thing imo, make sentinel a CO again, shooting after the arrow
but make sure the pulsar is shooting before the lancer
the rest of it looked good
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The entire reason that Xan FI have been so useless this round is because the Sentinel is untargetted by the FI fleet. It's also damn effective. Want to break Xan again? I sure don't.
You've attempted to put some thought into it, but the basic change is the problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by veX
And make sarabs fire before roaches, while lowering their efficiency a bit.
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I think you must be looking at different stats, because they already do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweaker
looking at the stats appoco posted, is it just me or has terrans bs fleet been nuked completly :/
xans just need to build ghosts, and whats the worst the terran can do cap them after they have fired and taken big losses, this just leaves them with a ship almost the same as chims :/
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I agree
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10 Sep 2005, 20:32
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#92
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Banned
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: ******
Posts: 2,326
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
The entire reason that Xan FI have been so useless this round is because the Sentinel is untargetted by the FI fleet. It's also damn effective. Want to break Xan again? I sure don't.
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Thing is, Xan FI are pretty good anyway, because you can just recall/resend until you get through. Xan is a late game race, because it relies on bashing and recall/resend tactics, so Sent owning FI is actually 'not that bad'. That said, even in r12 with the vsh firing at sents after the sents it was pretty shit to be Xan.
I think the best situation is Vsh firing first with low Vsh armor and good synergy effects (that is, Beetle that fires first, Sent/Cutlass firing later).
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10 Sep 2005, 20:54
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#93
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Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Thing is, Xan FI are pretty good anyway, because you can just recall/resend until you get through. Xan is a late game race, because it relies on bashing and recall/resend tactics, so Sent owning FI is actually 'not that bad'. That said, even in r12 with the vsh firing at sents after the sents it was pretty shit to be Xan.
I think the best situation is Vsh firing first with low Vsh armor and good synergy effects (that is, Beetle that fires first, Sent/Cutlass firing later).
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I admit I simplified. However, there's a LOT of good (beetles, sents) anti-FI around, and both Cath and Xan have a decent number of Sents. Since most Xans are low on Spiders, it doesn't take much to force a recall due to Xan paper-thin armour. Not that paper-thin armour for Xan is a bad thing.
As for recalling/resending, I don't think that it's exclusive to Xan. They have the advantage of being ETA 7 (so only one tick to get defence), but not much more than that.
I agree that they are a late game race, but I just don't have many problems covering FI as opposed to CR/BS incomings, which three different races provide.
Anyway, my point was that nothing in the Xan FI fleet shoots back, at the beetle or the sent. I don't think that this is a good thing.
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11 Sep 2005, 10:38
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#94
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Just like science!
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cabinet of the Glorious Leader
Posts: 158
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Anyway, my point was that nothing in the Xan FI fleet shoots back, at the beetle or the sent. I don't think that this is a good thing.
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And yet there are going to be more Xan than any other race in the top100 in a few days.
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11 Sep 2005, 11:52
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#95
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Stat changes for R15
I've made a new version here. The changes in red are still the changes between the CURRENT (r14) set of stats and these stats.
Major things are Tzen is now De stealing Fi, instead of Ghost being De and Bomber stealing, and so this obviously pulls the Syren back to how it was before.
I'm worried that Xan are still too strong (as has been mentioned they seem to do better near the end of the round).
The Scarab has been moved to Fr as I had 3 De -> Cr ships
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11 Sep 2005, 15:38
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#96
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Stat changes for R15
xVx-Digital has carefully pointed out I forgot to change the Bettle armour back to 21. It's not meant to be 22. This will be updated in the next version.
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11 Sep 2005, 15:52
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#97
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saint-ciboire de tabarnac
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 244
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Re: Stat changes for R15
Terran can steal the new tzen, which opens up a fi roiding fleet possiblity for them.
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11 Sep 2005, 16:16
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#98
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mokes
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 43
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Re: Stat changes for R15
But now terran can't steal any nice blue cath ships and they looked so pretty on my fleet screen too Terran is the only race that can't steal 4 races ships with these stats as caths have no destroyers so they're also the only race that can't get emp ships.
I still miss my phoenixes being co-co appoco (I've found it hard this round having 2 fleets that are eta 7 being able to hit you quite easily, fi and co, to get deffed) but at least with these stats stealing lancers might be easier from deffing against xan destroyer attacks in gal
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11 Sep 2005, 16:17
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#99
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Stat changes for R15
That would be a fairly strong reason to change them, yes . I think the next version will be taking a little longer to produce. The thing is, Xan do work better with De pods, I think. I know they can't fake as much, and so on, but the De fleet does seem to work generally better than the Fr fleet - admittedly, both the Terran De fleet and the Xan De fleet are now more effective, so perhaps the anti De Bs need an armour boost. Xan can't obviously have a De stealing ship if we keep Terran as it is, so it means either they either have a Fr stealing ship (stealing Fi or De), or we ditch the steal thing, or something else. Ditching stealing may well be the best way to go.
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11 Sep 2005, 16:18
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#100
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Stat changes for R15
I know you miss your Phoenixes being Co - Co, but we can't have arrowheads *and* Phoenixes being Co - Co, and it works better this way atm.
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