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Unread 12 May 2005, 12:49   #51
TheShadowMan
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snurx
I might just be stupid, but what about a cr fleet (roach heavy) coupled with Black Widows against terrans? I know I could be raped with that, especially if most of my BS were out somewhere..

But that might just be me, and I'm probably too low value for most of you to attack me!

Hi Snurx,

I have been playing around with idea for a while. :-) Have you been hit by such a fleet?

tsm
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Unread 12 May 2005, 14:26   #52
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

I am really astounded to see taht most of you resort again and again to the same old arguments trying to prove a point that doesn't exist:
1. "Cathaar have always been the most targetted, nothing new here, bla bla .."
True, but in the past Cathaar were also quite effective at stopping their incs, which makes total sense!, since they can not kill with efficiency. Now you have Caths that can't stop a fly, which makes them even more popular than in any other round i have played so far.
2. "Cathaars are an offensive race, attack ".
True, and FALSE. Cathaar have always been an offensive race, but mostly, they have been a defensive race. How can you call a race that doesn't kill 'offensive' rather than 'defensive' beats me. Cathaar relied on their great efficiency not only to roid but also to keep the roids they get!.
3. "Roids don't matter."
FALSE! Roids are at the end of the day the only thing that matters. Ask any top player from former rounds, and he will tell you that no price is too high at the start to get roids. And once you get them, don't lose them, and grow big until you reach the point where you can not be targetted easily. Roids = Resources = Ships = Value, that is the only thing that matters. All who think XP is the way to go, are the ones who are also happy with a top 200 planet, who never made any difference in any war, since it was too busy xp whoring.
4. "Have you tried using CO fleets instead?"
YES. Buccaneers, Lancers, Phoenixes. All ships for which a cath co fleet is a sitting duck waiting to be shot. Htting anything but a xan with few or no lancers, around half your size with a CO fleet is like playing lottery, you have the same chances to find a decent one with roids.
5. "Team up with a zik or a xan"
And so Cathaars have become a leech race now, depending on other races to get some roids. If the objective had been from the start to force cooperations between races, then all races should have been designed to have a weak spot and to be effective only when working with another race. Can't help the feeling that most of the people that use this argument are actually the biggest hypocrits around.
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Last edited by Gio2k; 12 May 2005 at 14:31.
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Unread 12 May 2005, 14:32   #53
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

"be adaptable and aggressive because it pays"

applies to every race.
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Unread 12 May 2005, 14:50   #54
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
however I also saw the beauty of the cath co fleet, if coupled with the zik co fleet it is virtually unstoppable
Surely you mean a zik co fleet, once they have stolen every other races co ships...
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Unread 12 May 2005, 14:54   #55
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

can't we get this over with already :/

yes cathaar ain't the best race this round... live with it... i am sure we'll see improvements next round. I have seen plenty of planets around my size that are reasonable to attack (but maybe that is becuase i don't have that much value), yes i lose (quite) some beetles / CR to take the roids.. but i still gain ranks in the end, and that is what matters.
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Unread 12 May 2005, 15:09   #56
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
Surely you mean a zik co fleet, once they have stolen every other races co ships...
nope zik co and cath co work very nicely together.
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Unread 12 May 2005, 16:21   #57
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShadowMan
Is you e-penis bigger now?
Quite.


Quote:
How come no one else picked up on my condescending nature? Non Entity clearly explained where I was going wrong. Thats a positive post. Yours is simply negavtive, hence the neg rep!
Because noone else was pm-ed with the condescending message?

Gio2k: Frankly, Cath are a bit underwhelmed, compared to the other races.I agree with that sentiment, but it is going a bit far to change it mid-round, isn't it? Just set yourself challenges and try to achieve them, I'm having a bit fun myself trying to end t250(!) (note: I signed up on tick 420 and didn't even have inet access at home till tick 520~ ), though I do quite regret going cath heh.
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Unread 12 May 2005, 16:47   #58
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
nope zik co and cath co work very nicely together.
zik co has the same trouble as cath co, except they're worse since they fire after vsh/assasin
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Unread 12 May 2005, 16:50   #59
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

[quote=_ryzekiel_]Quite.



Because noone else was pm-ed with the condescending message?

[\QUOTE]


What the same thing in the post. Your saying that I'm condescending cos i posted it on the thread and then pm'd you the exact same thing? Get off your high horse sunny jim.

tsm
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Unread 12 May 2005, 17:02   #60
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
zik co has the same trouble as cath co, except they're worse since they fire after vsh/assasin
however.. cutlass tend to steal ships, or in other words hurt the defenders, increasing the chance of them running or still making it worth landing. Also, the (way) better armour of cutlass helps to flak your beetles a bit
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Unread 12 May 2005, 17:23   #61
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
however.. cutlass tend to steal ships, or in other words hurt the defenders, increasing the chance of them running or still making it worth landing. Also, the (way) better armour of cutlass helps to flak your beetles a bit
...and the beetles help to stun the vsh quite effectively for you to steal them.

Xan/Cath/Zik FI/CO is an ungodly combo... the problem just just getting the ships together.
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Unread 12 May 2005, 17:55   #62
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Two successful landings (for 200 roids and max XP each time) over the past 3 days reinforced my belief that Cath are perfectly playable.

This is my current fleet:

Ships (1,625 total)
Viper 150 Black Widow 400
Scarab 350 Roach 500
Scorpion 75 Hornet 100
Termite 30

Of course, I've rounded all of this, etc. If you want to come and get me (as I'm sure many of you do), come get some. Don't expect to leave with any roids though.

My attacking fleet should be fairly obvious: 500 Roaches/100 Hornets, plus Termites if I don't like you. It means that I can land on an Xan with 2k FR, as long as that's not all Bombers. Which is nice. This is how you 'XP whore' (aka do well as a Cath). Each landing recently pushed me up 100 places, which means I'm now going up the rankings very happily.

Yes, there are some clear deficiencies in my fleet. A lack of FI/CO defence being the main problem. But my anti-CR/BS are very gratefully received by my alliance, enough so that they don't really mind the holes.

To quote Sovereign/Ultimate Newbie:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
A balanced fleet has some capability in all areas, but is good in none.
I think my fleet applies directly to that. And remember - the best defence is a good offence.
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Unread 12 May 2005, 18:00   #63
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Oh for christ's sake you ****ing moron, stop making me have to spell everything out for you. It was condescending simply because you actually had pm-ed rather than leaving it with a post on the forums.

Nonentity: Yeah but the ratio of landing:not-landing is nothing close to favourable nor do I expect the xp/roids capped whenever you do land to justify the ratio. Note though that I've had a pretty decent round roiding wise, but I'm exquisitely tiny therefore I have only had to roid people under 750k~ value to extract maximum xp.
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Unread 12 May 2005, 18:14   #64
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_
Nonentity: Yeah but the ratio of landing:not-landing is nothing close to favourable nor do I expect the xp/roids capped whenever you do land to justify the ratio. Note though that I've had a pretty decent round roiding wise, but I'm exquisitely tiny therefore I have only had to roid people under 750k~ value to extract maximum xp.
True, I accept that landing/not landing isn't great. But right now, a lot more Ziks are sending Corsairs out on attack (and getting them killed), so there seem to be fewer around in defence. Likewise, everyone seems to be content with the amount of anti-CR they have, so I'm getting more landings.

As always, the round ebbs and flows between certain ship-types, and I think CR might finish stronger than certainly was predicted when the first of these threads was made a week ago.

Personally I have about half a million value and about 20k XP (translating into ~1.2m score itself). That means that I can roid Xans with 1m+ value pretty much for free, especially if they happen to be FI Xans . I also get max XP on those roids, usually 150-200 each landing. I accept that it's hard, but perseverence seems to paying off.


As for the quarrel between you and TSM....get rid of it in your posts and take it to PM, its making a good thread considerably shitter than it deserves to be. Someone be a man and take the first move, even if that person has to be you, Jerome
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Unread 12 May 2005, 18:28   #65
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

I'd rather if he just left it as is.

Also, one of the worse things for cath this round is the highlighting of popular cath choices in these sort of threads, which basically cry out "BUILD ANTI-ME" heh.
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Unread 12 May 2005, 18:47   #66
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

I have given up on trying to convince some people to change the stats, although i feel that giving tarants more firepower would only restore balance, taking power from the corsair heavy zik fleets. Xans would be also affected by it, but let's face it, xans atm only build mass fi and attack with it, so this would force xans to try out other combinations. All in all, i don't think such a change would do more harm than good.
The main point in this thread however was trying to convince me and others that Cathaar are still good, or that cathaar should not be played conventionally, which is just a load of crap. If Cathaar were good, you would see at least 20% of them in the top 100, since i know lots of great players who went Cathaar. Now, at the moment of writing, there's only 3 (three) Caths in the top100, and the one with the maximum value is below 1.5m. If you check the top 100 in value, you will see only ONE cathaar player in the top 100. There is a difference between a little underpowered, and totally neutered. I can only understand the resilience against changing stats from some players as close-mindedness, or just pure egoism.
To those that still think we are only whining and should shut up, go get a clue. In fact, go get lots of it.
To those that support our point of view, thanks! Just acknowledge that we are right, and that we have right to ask for changes.
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Unread 12 May 2005, 19:06   #67
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
I don't understand what the rest of you are talking about, so I'm going to repeat the same boring crap all over again and hope that you eventually agree with me instead of clawing your own eyes out in sheer desperation.
But if you do agree with me, that's a good thing, right?
Fixed.


The point is that most Cath players have still failed to adapt. The players who have are doing far better than the ones who haven't. And this is why there are fewer Caths in the top 100 than there deserve to be.
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Unread 12 May 2005, 20:37   #68
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonentity
Fixed.


The point is that most Cath players have still failed to adapt. The players who have are doing far better than the ones who haven't. And this is why there are fewer Caths in the top 100 than there deserve to be.
You are clueless. But as i said before, i stopped trying to convince people like you. So whatever.
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Unread 13 May 2005, 00:48   #69
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonentity
Fixed.


The point is that most Cath players have still failed to adapt. The players who have are doing far better than the ones who haven't. And this is why there are fewer Caths in the top 100 than there deserve to be.

It is NOT fking adapting to be xp whore.

I dont give a fk about my personal rank - I wanna be able to help out gal / alliance and m8s.

XP hoes ONLY play for themselves. Only xp hoes I can somehoe understand r those that play solo in shit gals with ~0 m8s.

And - it doesnt matter who I attack, I have found 100ds of nice targets which I could land free on more or less, BUT - all they need is some corsairs.

I am not asking them to change stats mid round, as I ve said b4.. I made a fk up when Ididnt take the corsairs enough into consideration....I m just pissed at those who think they know how to play cath - and r so happy cruising around in their medium ranks (200- 500) xp hoing and attacking innocent useless - no good - n00bs.

I enjoy playing this round, but stats needs to be changed for next round.

And - PLZ - stop defending the stats and say that they r good. And that cath actually pwns - its just all the players unable to "adapt"
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Unread 13 May 2005, 00:57   #70
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonentity
Two successful landings (for 200 roids and max XP each time) over the past 3 days reinforced my belief that Cath are perfectly playable.

This is my current fleet:

Ships (1,625 total)
Viper 150 Black Widow 400
Scarab 350 Roach 500
Scorpion 75 Hornet 100
Termite 30
I hate you, my fleet is twice the size or more, i go along with alliance buddys, yet everytime i still have to pull because that little *** got 10k corsair def.
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Unread 13 May 2005, 01:01   #71
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
I hate you, my fleet is twice the size or more, i go along with alliance buddys, yet everytime i still have to pull because that little *** got 10k corsair def.
same here

But - remember that he is getting roids cause he is attacking n00bs
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Unread 13 May 2005, 07:37   #72
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Same thing happened tonight, my target kindly sent me this mail:

"you will get roids, but you will lost about 500 cruiser. you are not the first attacker, therfore you can capture perhaps 200 roids. i think, losing 500 cruiser for only 200 roids make no sense. think about a recall. this attack make no sense for both, for me (i lost some roids) and for you(losing 500 cruiser)!"

Can't say I've read worse tbh.
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Unread 13 May 2005, 09:49   #73
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

I'm going to make something clear.

I've never said that Cath are great. I've never suggested that they can own this round. But this thread's about making a stats change mid-round (something both you and I, Wishmaster, are against). My personal feeling on stats changes is that sometimes they could be necessary, but this is not the situation now. That's the only thing I've been arguing against - the people who say that Cath is unplayable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
I hate you, my fleet is twice the size or more, i go along with alliance buddys, yet everytime i still have to pull because that little *** got 10k corsair def.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
same here

But - remember that he is getting roids cause he is attacking n00bs
Sod off. The fact I don't have a famous name, or a forum personality, or a pretty little badge under my name, doesn't mean that you can try to patronise me.

As for the n00b comment: every attack I go on is part of an alliance attack, targetting certain alliances. Last night, it was your alliance. n00bs?
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Unread 13 May 2005, 10:57   #74
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Did any of u land heh?
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Unread 13 May 2005, 11:20   #75
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
Did any of u land heh?
10k corsairs in defence should answer that for you, Rinoa


-ve Dont shave the Caths! 12 May 2005 22:53 uncalled for, and he does have a point, even though i don't fully agree with him, i dont agree with you either.

To my neg-repper - thanks.

To Gio2k, Rinoa and others in this thread - I think we all got a little too frustrated with the other side not agreeing with us. So - sorry for going over the line, and I hope some of you can accept that.

cheers
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Unread 13 May 2005, 12:23   #76
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Summing up, caths arent flawed, it's just the relationship between tarantula and corsair which has nerfed most caths. The stats wont be changed mid-round, caths will just have to build tonnes of tarants, team up, go co fleet or delete their account and start again as zik. Unfortunately these all have troubles ahead, but at least theres only 1000 (ish) more ticks to go...
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Unread 13 May 2005, 13:44   #77
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

and pay another £5 for someone’s miss-calculation on the stats. Hardly seems fair.

This is my first time back to PA from a 8 round gap. Was pretty excited about it played speed rounds as Xan and Cat and though Cat here better. I can't keep more than 300 roids without getting roiding for an entire day.

I feel like i've become a burden to my alliance. Can't defend, if i join attacks and get roids, i need defence and lots of it instantly, over at least 4 ticks. I don't have;

a) Time
b) Experience to read the stats and predict the round.

People saying that we should have read the stats and its our own fault, as full of it. Why should we have to do that? Shouldn't there be some sort of balance; even if there is a weaker race it shouldn't be significant enough for me to have this amount of incoming.

There is a Zik in my galaxy with half my value and score and nearly twice the roids, yet i get all the incoming. How is this balanced or even remotely balanced?

Sh!t Stats, Sh!t round(for me anyway)...and i really don't know if i'll be coming back for another round.


P.S sorry if this is poorly structured, i'm in a hurry.
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Unread 13 May 2005, 14:43   #78
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Some people need to open their eyes.

Everyone knows Cath is flawed to the core this round, if they don't they're confused.

Their Weakness, is Everything:

CR fleets have 3 ticks to be defended in alliance, unlike ANY other ship class. The most effective race of the round, just happens to have all three ticks.

They're the only race that can be fleetcatched properly, and flawlessly despite the eta bug.

CO fleets only target one class and can't easily deal with other def.

Caths have NOTHING to offer their alliances, yet they are the biggest alliance burdens. Over a whole round, they really do have so little.

They are the least able to cover their own incomings without a doubt, they're inefficient as hell.

Because of high pod armour, no cath in the game can stop even an extremely small BS incoming. Not to mention the fact.. because they can't stop it, they then get hit by Wyverns if they stick around. Same goes for everything really, the only thing i can cover myself is FI, and that's becoming distant now Xan's are parading around with 110k FI.

I'm doing pretty well so far, but i feel chained to the ground by the day, and land once every four or so. The alliance point is really important, and my galaxy, i can barely help them at all any more..
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Unread 13 May 2005, 15:27   #79
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc

Caths have NOTHING to offer their alliances, yet they are the biggest alliance burdens. Over a whole round, they really do have so little.
heh.... ever heard of scarabs or black widows?

also beetles are pwetty nice, though they might be out attacking alot aswell
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Unread 13 May 2005, 15:46   #80
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

nah, In defence i can be a real pain in the ass.
my scarabs and black widows are out everyday.
And 11k beetles tend to frustrate many xans attacking
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Unread 13 May 2005, 15:54   #81
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

My scarabs and black widows do the job just fine thanks.

Terrans: Phoenix/(Chimera)/Dragon
Cathaar: Beetle/Scarab/Black Widow
Xan: Vsh Fi/Sents/Arrowheads/Fireblades/Bombers
Zik: Corsair/Cutlass/Thief/Pirate

Probably missed out a couple of ships, but I'd say that these are the main alliance defensive ships. Spot anything useful for Cathaar?
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Unread 13 May 2005, 16:39   #82
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

http://www.sandmans.co.uk/?p=viewplanet&x=4&y=5&z=2

with 5 waves still coming, yes ive had 5 people launch at me since ive had 298 roids!

cath is utter crap, yes i can sometimes go out and cap roids with my co, but seriously whats the point? any losses i take i will never get back from the roids. yes i xp whored at the start and made some effort like that but phoneix rape you (well 2k do) and you cant touch them with your co. Then dont even get me started on mass ingal bucs from those overpowered ziks who have 73 times my value.

You get out flakked, which happens easily when you get fleet caught by ziks as much as i do. And seeing as your cath most people just land anyway cause what the hell? no losses!
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Unread 13 May 2005, 16:40   #83
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Vsh are exquisitely inefficient to defend with. (Noting that Beetles are generally present in co-attacks, even zik ones heh )

PS: note the utter lack of anti-de bar fireblades (who's efficiency is matched if not bettered by my dead grandmother) in that list of Nonentity there.
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Unread 13 May 2005, 17:20   #84
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

I actually wrote that in the vague hope of getting a response which is nice.

"Over a whole round, they really do have so little." Problem is, the ships wouldn't be such a disaster if we had enough income to support their limitations. The only people i know with a decent number, are same people that Napped their main opposition midround, who i have no time for.

People seem to be thinking on a very small scale here, that's the impression i get. Although I don't actually expect to be able to affect the 3.5k BS that hit my friend this morning, or the 400k FI retal this afternoon ... I would like to offer something to a more reasonable 300 BS or say.. even 600 DE.

There's a few Caths in the game with enough bw/Scarab to be useful on a "reasonable" scale, such that they can influence a real battle. I can't claim to be one of them, i lost most of my defensive fleet in fleetcatches(i say fleetcatches.. accidental ones), and never really got it back because of the income. I pretty much play for score now, and it shows. I actually find playing like that incredibly annoying, i don't enjoy it whatsoever. It seems to be a case now of just helping others / alliance in attack

Beetles are useful to alliances, many feel they are underpowered, that hasn't affected me much this round, a Cath can reasonably expect to have around 10k now, and a decent Xan anywhere upwards of 70k FI assuming they don't suicide for XP too much. And that's okay.. it takes a few caths to smother one call, you soon run out of beetle defence.. but that's expected in a "hard to defend" round.

I look at the stats for Bw/Scarabs ( i really really don't rate Vipers at all this round ) and what strikes me, isn't the fact that they're useless. You tend to find the more thorough CR attackers cover for most eventualities by asking friends to send along a few Marauders in the hope they'll cap some Scarabs. Making your job defensively, a little *even more* difficult. Cath ships just don't stand out as anything like as useful as Xan/Ter/Zik ships when it comes to the big battles.

I guess, from previous rounds. I expect Caths to make up for the fact they can't stop the pods, and that they can't stop whole fleets, by rendering the fleet more closely to useless allowing another race to do some damage. Or at least have one decent low eta "kill" ship, so they can offer some more convincing help.

Something like that, tbh i think it's a lost cause, the limitations have existed since about tick 500, and it won't change. I look forward to next round.
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Unread 13 May 2005, 17:23   #85
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_
Vsh are exquisitely inefficient to defend with. (Noting that Beetles are generally present in co-attacks, even zik ones heh )

PS: note the utter lack of anti-de bar fireblades (who's efficiency is matched if not bettered by my dead grandmother) in that list of Nonentity there.
Regarding anti-de: that was because there is little decent ally DE defence. Wyverns don't make the eta. Gryphons and Vipers exist only in low numbers. Pulsars are usually either out or not in large enough numbers not to be killed by Pegs. Marauders are too slow.

I'm suprised that there aren't more DE Terrans out there because of this.

As for Vsh Fi, you're entirely right and thats why I love my Phoenix-heavy ally members.
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Unread 13 May 2005, 17:30   #86
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

I really do agree with everything you said. In another thread, I suggested that an increase in EMP damage from 10-20 damage points would do the job nicely for the race overall. That way, they could function with useless kill ships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
I guess, from previous rounds. I expect Caths to make up for the fact they can't stop the pods, and that they can't stop whole fleets, by rendering the fleet more closely to useless allowing another race to do some damage. Or at least have one decent low eta "kill" ship, so they can offer some more convincing help.

Something like that, tbh i think it's a lost cause, the limitations have existed since about tick 500, and it won't change. I look forward to next round.
Looking at the usual swings between races each round, I think I might be Cath next round
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Unread 13 May 2005, 17:50   #87
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonentity
Sod off. The fact I don't have a famous name, or a forum personality, or a pretty little badge under my name, doesn't mean that you can try to patronise me.

As for the n00b comment: every attack I go on is part of an alliance attack, targetting certain alliances. Last night, it was your alliance. n00bs?
Famous in an online game is something u should be glad u are not. Something I am aswell.



When I saw ur fleet it was kinda smal, so I figured that u attacked smal players, and therefore the chances of getting roids are higher.
Didnt mean to call u a n00b, sry if u felt it like that.

And my alliance n00bs... Without discussing wheter my alliance is n00bish, I just wanna know if u even know what ally I am in.

I guess u dont
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Unread 13 May 2005, 17:55   #88
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonentity
Regarding anti-de: that was because there is little decent ally DE defence. Wyverns don't make the eta. Gryphons and Vipers exist only in low numbers. Pulsars are usually either out or not in large enough numbers not to be killed by Pegs. Marauders are too slow.

I'm suprised that there aren't more DE Terrans out there because of this.
Yes, the extravagant amount of oppurtunities present for the terran de fleet is exactly what my post was unfortunately over-subtly implying.



When it comes down to it, the strengths of races during a round are presented with the % of top ranks they hold at the end of the round (not mid-way, but let's be frank, there isn't going to be too much of a change bar maybe a more even presence between xands and ziks), therefore the reasonings can be based down to either or both of:
1] Cathaar are simply not good enough.
2] All planets playing Cath are newbies and/or late-starters.
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Unread 13 May 2005, 18:11   #89
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
Famous in an online game is something u should be glad u are not. Something I am aswell.



When I saw ur fleet it was kinda smal, so I figured that u attacked smal players, and therefore the chances of getting roids are higher.
Didnt mean to call u a n00b, sry if u felt it like that.

And my alliance n00bs... Without discussing wheter my alliance is n00bish, I just wanna know if u even know what ally I am in.

I guess u dont
My fleet's kinda small because of a couple XP suicides around tick 400. Unfortunatly XP whoring didn't turn out as strong as it looked to at that stage of the round.

As for your alliance: since you're ex-LDK, I assume that you're in EXilition. It was a reasoned guess, and I certainly wasn't trying to say that EX are n00bs was just being sarcastic.
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Unread 13 May 2005, 18:16   #90
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_
Yes, the extravagant amount of oppurtunities present for the terran de fleet is exactly what my post was unfortunately over-subtly implying.


Quote:
Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_
When it comes down to it, the strengths of races during a round are presented with the % of top ranks they hold at the end of the round (not mid-way, but let's be frank, there isn't going to be too much of a change bar maybe a more even presence between xands and ziks), therefore the reasonings can be based down to either or both of:
1] Cathaar are simply not good enough.
2] All planets playing Cath are newbies and/or late-starters.
I agree, I expect the round to end with these proportions of the top 100 (not exact ofc):

Terran - 20 planets
Cathaar - 1/2 planets
Xandrithii - 40 planets
Zikonean - 40 planets.

The increase for Terran will come as Xan get stronger, since their BS defence is pretty weak.
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Unread 13 May 2005, 18:42   #91
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

*ahem*

Pardon me. No, I'm no one any of you may have heard of before (except from my "me too" post on the same issue - underpowered Cathaars). Also, as I've only got back to PA on R12, little is the number of galaxy/alliance mates who may remember/have heard of me. Anyway, it's not the point.

I've started this round as Cath again. Took me less than, what? 300 ticks? Maybe a little longer.. To see how bad of a round I'd have ahead. And I wasn't wrong about that. The round indeed got pretty frustrating and boring. To the point where I couldn't help my galaxy, or alliance, nor have fun by "going on my own" anymore.

What most (if not all) of you round defenders failed to notice so far is that the shipstats should be crafted in such a way that no one should need to go a certain path forcedly (the XP whoring you all "suggest"). In that matter, the current shipstats failed for caths, and failed badly. If you're not XP whoring this round, you're meant to die.

But you've all discussed this over and over, and it's pretty obvious that:

1) The underpowered state of Caths is only accepted by Caths, and maybe a handful of other players;
2) The shipstats are not going to change mid-round (and thank God for that);
3) Caths won't stop whining about it, and non-Caths won't stop telling them to stop whining.

Those 3 facts combined (and mainly #2) have led this thread to a point where the whining and the bitchslapping is the only thing you read. Trying to be as direct as possible, my way out of this was exactly that: I started over with another race. Yes, mid-round, meant to get nowhere. But I decided having at least _some_ fun would be a little cooler than sticking to a flawed race to the end, only to see (again) how bad of a choice that was.

But, how about changing the topic a little bit? It's over now, the system is not going to change mid-round, and Caths have to either go XP whoring or struggle to try and get somewhere - and in most cases, fail trying. So, what are the needed changes for this to not happen on R14? I must be sincere and confess that I'm not very sure about that part. It was great going Cath last round, and I didn't think it'd be so difficult to play Cath this round, looking at the shipstats before tickstart.

So, I'm asking you experts, be you Cath-friendly or not: What should be changed about it for the next round?

Thanks,
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Unread 13 May 2005, 18:52   #92
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

i like cath, i'm cath myself
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Unread 13 May 2005, 18:54   #93
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

I see two choices really:

1) Bring back EMP resistance as a separate stat, making the race far more customisable without overly affecting the other 3 races.

2) Keep the ships stats roughly as they are (except for sorting out the Corsair issue), but up Cathaar damage efficiencies to around 65-75. Keep kill ships crap, like they're supposed to be.


Both have benefits, but probably I would choose the first option.


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Unread 13 May 2005, 19:28   #94
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
2. "Cathaars are an offensive race, attack ".
True, and FALSE. Cathaar have always been an offensive race, but mostly, they have been a defensive race. How can you call a race that doesn't kill 'offensive' rather than 'defensive' beats me. Cathaar relied on their great efficiency not only to roid but also to keep the roids they get!.
Cathaar are usually good defence-wise but because of the huge pod armour this round, they need lots of ships to stop cap.

Because of this alliances don't cover fully as it would take too many fleets and they just force recall instead. Now here's the problem: Cath do not kill so they do not force recall and attackers see no reason to recall. They land anyway and get roids and do not lose more than they calc.
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Unread 13 May 2005, 19:32   #95
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
Also in regard to the original poster id like to know what races he hits as a percentage?
i have a stong feeling that all the cath xp whores in top 150 simply target other caths non stop, which is The Lamest N o Skill Method Out There
Okay whinging 24/7 about being fully incapable to play the Cathaar race is fine with me, but the moment you say lame stuff about people who DO have a clue how to play (use fakes etc) and say they only hit Cathaars is just plain weak. FYI I am cathaar, have been top 100 for ages and I am not doing bad at all atm, and I've almost ONLY been hitting, from the start of round in this order; Terrans, Ziks, Xans. The 2-3 occasions I have hit Cathaars have only been retals or to 'kill' this annoying ex galaxy mate that I exiled.

So please get a clue before you claim nonsense and pollute other peoples brains with your crap.

Thanks
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Unread 13 May 2005, 22:59   #96
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
As for your alliance: since you're ex-LDK, I assume that you're in EXilition. .
not correct

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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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Unread 14 May 2005, 02:13   #97
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Rinoa, you need to accept that this isnt round 1-10 where the biggest fleet won the round. Its about fleet activity and attacksuccess, at least for caths. Yes, caths are impossible to play "old style" but this is a new game. You say you dont respect the xp wh0res, then i say you know shit about the game. If you're a good player, you find a way to play your planet. Everyone who knows me also knows that i'm a semi-inactive twat with an xp cath planet. I attack with mostly 1 or 2 fleets, I attack any race except terran, and most attacks are quite successful. Ofc, i have no chance keeping the roids, but my god its fun to land 500 roids off a 4 million value guy(8 times my value) and see my score jump 500k+ Ofc, you may find me stupid for enjoying playing my targets and gaining xp, but tbh i couldnt care less what you think about me. You need to be more careful, it doesnt help your "save the cath" campaign if you arent willing to hear about the ones that enjoys playing cath. Oh and btw, i attack cath less than i attack zik/xan, so so much for your theory about cath's hitting caths all the time. Maybe some nubs do it all the time, but i dont think they're represented much in the top100.
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Unread 14 May 2005, 02:56   #98
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
I actually wrote that in the vague hope of getting a response which is nice.

"Over a whole round, they really do have so little." Problem is, the ships wouldn't be such a disaster if we had enough income to support their limitations. The only people i know with a decent number, are same people that Napped their main opposition midround, who i have no time for.

People seem to be thinking on a very small scale here, that's the impression i get. Although I don't actually expect to be able to affect the 3.5k BS that hit my friend this morning, or the 400k FI retal this afternoon ... I would like to offer something to a more reasonable 300 BS or say.. even 600 DE.

There's a few Caths in the game with enough bw/Scarab to be useful on a "reasonable" scale, such that they can influence a real battle. I can't claim to be one of them, i lost most of my defensive fleet in fleetcatches(i say fleetcatches.. accidental ones), and never really got it back because of the income. I pretty much play for score now, and it shows. I actually find playing like that incredibly annoying, i don't enjoy it whatsoever. It seems to be a case now of just helping others / alliance in attack

Beetles are useful to alliances, many feel they are underpowered, that hasn't affected me much this round, a Cath can reasonably expect to have around 10k now, and a decent Xan anywhere upwards of 70k FI assuming they don't suicide for XP too much. And that's okay.. it takes a few caths to smother one call, you soon run out of beetle defence.. but that's expected in a "hard to defend" round.

I look at the stats for Bw/Scarabs ( i really really don't rate Vipers at all this round ) and what strikes me, isn't the fact that they're useless. You tend to find the more thorough CR attackers cover for most eventualities by asking friends to send along a few Marauders in the hope they'll cap some Scarabs. Making your job defensively, a little *even more* difficult. Cath ships just don't stand out as anything like as useful as Xan/Ter/Zik ships when it comes to the big battles.

I guess, from previous rounds. I expect Caths to make up for the fact they can't stop the pods, and that they can't stop whole fleets, by rendering the fleet more closely to useless allowing another race to do some damage. Or at least have one decent low eta "kill" ship, so they can offer some more convincing help.

Something like that, tbh i think it's a lost cause, the limitations have existed since about tick 500, and it won't change. I look forward to next round.
I think this is the best post from a Cath PoV I've seen.
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Unread 14 May 2005, 05:51   #99
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I see two choices really:

1) Bring back EMP resistance as a separate stat, making the race far more customisable without overly affecting the other 3 races.

2) Keep the ships stats roughly as they are (except for sorting out the Corsair issue), but up Cathaar damage efficiencies to around 65-75. Keep kill ships crap, like they're supposed to be.
I am inclined to suggst another option:

3) Increase the damage done bu cathaar kill ships to be as efficient as xans. Make them target the two classes that have two pods in them. Ensure that the kill ships are NOT in the same class as either attacking fleet.


As i have said before, i think increasing the efficiency of Cathaar ships is not going to have any impact on them getting constant incoming. Cathaar have always had more incoming than everyone else because they cant kill effectively - increasing the EMP effectiveness is NOT going to stop that. It will, however, make caths much stronger on attack - the needs of which are questionable. I think cath are fine (to ever so slightly underpowered) in attack - its just that players are using their fleets effectively/thinking old skool/unable to keep roids etc etc.

Having killing ships discourages attacks by certain races with certain classes. It gives caths good defensive ships (especially if they are low ETA) which can be used in alliance or in-gal, and are thus more willing to trade def etc. Most importantly, Cathaars dont simply become free roidings for 4 of the 8 types of pods (assuming 2 kill ships targeting 2 classes with 2 pods in each class). However, it doesnt make cathaar impossible to defend against by having these kill ships outside their attacking ship's class - if they were CR, for example, the combination of stun-first then wtfpwn kill would be far too powerful.


Having said all that, i do strongly agree with option 1) as it gives more flexibility when building ships (ie stealers could have really low EMP res, but zik killers high EMP res - thus making stealing runs on caths alot harder - especially with kill ships - whilst not nerfing the kill ships so they are so brittle they cannot even consider touching xans with a ten foot pole).

/me votes 1 & 3 for victory! .
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Unread 14 May 2005, 09:01   #100
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Re: Dont shave the Caths!

Quote:
I actually wrote that in the vague hope of getting a response which is nice.
If you weren't so on the spot with your posts, you would've got a few more responses.
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