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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:03   #1
Matrim
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Should parents be fined when their kinds don't do their homework?

It's become a small debate here in Norway because many people are worried that our children are becoming dumber and dumber.

Partly it's true, we don't need to have an education to survive, the government will throw oil money at us anyway till we drop.

Though since few of you are teachers or parents with kids in school, perhaps you don't give a lump of rags.


I am however worried that due to the wealth we have easily sucked from the oil, the Norwegian population will be dulled into thinking "it doesn't matter. WE HAVE THE OIL!!!" as an answer to any question that has to do with industry, education and concerns for the future.


And since this isn't leading anywhere, I'd like to ask you a question:


How do you percieve Norway? What is Norway to you?





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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:06   #2
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Re: Should paretns be fined when their kinds don't do their homework?

Quote:
Originally posted by Matrim
I
How do you percieve Norway? What is Norway to you?
****ING COLD!
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:08   #3
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Re: Should parents be fined when their kinds don't do their homework?

Quote:
Originally posted by Matrim
Should parents be fined when their kinds don't do their homework?
No, just beat the idle sods. Hard. Repeatedly.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:09   #4
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Re: Re: Should parents be fined when their kinds don't do their homework?

Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
No, just beat the idle sods. Hard. Repeatedly.
:/
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:10   #5
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Re: Should parents be fined when their kinds don't do their homework?

Quote:
Originally posted by Matrim
What is Norway to you?
The place where some really hot chicks come from?
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:12   #6
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In cases where a math teacher has nothing better to do than complain that the correct answers weren't written neatly, it's questionable whether the homework should have been given in the first place.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:12   #7
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Re: Re: Should paretns be fined when their kinds don't do their homework?

I perceive Norway to be quite a cold but wealthy country with a very rigid and strict government. They seem to like to keep themselves to themselves.

I don't think parents should be fined because their kids don't do their homework, though.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:14   #8
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Re: Re: Should parents be fined when their kinds don't do their homework?

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Originally posted by Gayle28uk
No, just beat the idle sods. Hard. Repeatedly.
You'd get a lot of black and blue kids over there I'm sure
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:22   #9
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Re: Re: Re: Should parents be fined when their kinds don't do their homework?

Quote:
Originally posted by Asper
You'd get a lot of black and blue kids over there I'm sure
Only short term. Once they learn that doing work stops the beatings it all balances. I don't care what the sociologicsts and other wishy washy pseudoscientists say, the whole 'poor Johnny comes from a broken home, he didn't mean to be a gobby thieving little ****, it's just his background' is what's destroying this society. There's no feedback mechanism, little Johnny gets told off for not doing his homework and thinks 'whoopee ****ing doo'. What he needs is to have his arse tanned, make the little sod think twice before acting in future.

And for all those who are about to jump in with 'violence breeds violence' go boil your head in a bucket of oil. We're not talking about a real beating we're talking about a tanned arse, there's a world of difference.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:25   #10
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The education system in Norway is rotten to the core. The few good teachers i have had the pleasure off working under, was under constant strain from bad teachers, head masters and the system itself. We dont learn ****, exept the few things our brains manage to "learn to heart". We do not learn to think, to critizise, or to comment, just what has happened, not even why! The whole concept off the system here is ****ed, and should be replaced.
The only thing the norwegian schools do properly, is to make the youths lose all lust for knowlenge.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:27   #11
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Should parents be fined when their kinds don't do their homework?

Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
Only short term. Once they learn that doing work stops the beatings it all balances. I don't care what the sociologicsts and other wishy washy pseudoscientists say, the whole 'poor Johnny comes from a broken home, he didn't mean to be a gobby thieving little ****, it's just his background' is what's destroying this society. There's no feedback mechanism, little Johnny gets told off for not doing his homework and thinks 'whoopee ****ing doo'. What he needs is to have his arse tanned, make the little sod think twice before acting in future.

And for all those who are about to jump in with 'violence breeds violence' go boil your head in a bucket of oil. We're not talking about a real beating we're talking about a tanned arse, there's a world of difference.

Could you fly over and tell our lame ass government this? The broken home excuse for misbehaviour is soooooo common over here.

Not to go all racistic (sp?) here, but it's also this kind of excuse that makes the current goverment (and probably many more to come) to hold a hand above the heads of asylum seekers who happen to commit a large part of the current crimes over here.

What we need isn't more blue on the streets, we need to kick out anyone that commits a serious crime (theft with violence, rape, murder, bankrobbery etc...)

Oops...went on rambling rampage there.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:35   #12
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You're not talking about "beating" thieves and the like though, you're talking about "beating" children who don't do their homework. It's an efficient path to a dead-end job, sure, but not exactly harming anyone aside from yourself.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:40   #13
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What we need is a bit more responsibility from parents for their children. We're up to the point where if your child misbehaves, and someone tells him off, the father goes over to threaten or beat up the person who told his child off. If a child gets a bad grade in school, there's parents who go to school to molest the teacher for giving their child a bad grade.

Parents don't dare to give their children a decent whack anymore, because nowadays even looking at your child angrily constitutes child abuse. When I was little and was being a pest, my mom used to give me a smack, and I turned out reasonably fine. At the very least I'm not a thieving, drug addicted juvenile piece of trash.

Children aren't taught any discipline anymore these days. I always cringe when I see a mother in a supermarket with the kids running around, grabbing all the items from the cart, trying to open half the things and being general nuisances, with the mother only going: "Come on darling, put that back" about 10 times - with no effect.

To the topic at hand - if fining parents for their children's lack of homework makes parents pay more attention to what their children do in school, then it's a perfectly fine measure.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:43   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leshy
I always cringe when I see a mother in a supermarket with the kids running around, grabbing all the items from the cart, trying to open half the things and being general nuisances, with the mother only going: "Come on darling, put that back" about 10 times - with no effect.
I did that. Result? THWACK! WAAAAAAAH! Shut up or I'll really give you something to cry about! Only did it once...
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:44   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leshy
To the topic at hand - if fining parents for their children's lack of homework makes parents pay more attention to what their children do in school, then it's a perfectly fine measure.
If they follow up the fine with a beating then even better. Always remember, **** rolls downhill...
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schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und corkenpoppen mit
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:48   #16
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Exclamation

There should be a happy medium. Not beating them over the head with a baseball bat, but not just letting them do whatever they want, either.

Tbh, I don't think it's all because parents are wishy washy poncy people. I think a lot of it is just laziness with regard to their kids as well. For the number of times I see some eminently middle class couple saying 'Come on Josuha, don't do thart.', I also see a very fat, eminetly working class woman bawling to her kids across a supermarket, but not actually caring what they're doing.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:51   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
I did that. Result? THWACK! WAAAAAAAH! Shut up or I'll really give you something to cry about! Only did it once...
WoW so harsh

However I once worked in a small snackbar for some weeks during summer vacation.

And we had an occasion were two girls and their mother were looking at the icecream-cart and I SWEAR they were looking at it and discussing it about 20 minutes straight. And even then they wanted to see certain icecreams, and know what was in this one and in that one.

I think I'm to kind at times but at that moment I had the urge to grab them both by the ears and toss em out. I had something better to do ffs! And ofc the mother just stood there looking bored n stuff grrrrrrrrrrrrr.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 13:58   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Asper
WoW so harsh
I should make it clear that I was the THWACKee rather than the THWACKer, I don't have any ankle biters.
Quote:
However I once worked in a small snackbar for some weeks during summer vacation.

And we had an occasion were two girls and their mother were looking at the icecream-cart and I SWEAR they were looking at it and discussing it about 20 minutes straight. And even then they wanted to see certain icecreams, and know what was in this one and in that one.

I think I'm to kind at times but at that moment I had the urge to grab them both by the ears and toss em out. I had something better to do ffs! And ofc the mother just stood there looking bored n stuff grrrrrrrrrrrrr.
My mum's answer to that one...

"5 seconds to make your mids up or you go without.". She'd stick to it as well.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 14:27   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leshy
Parents don't dare to give their children a decent whack anymore, because nowadays even looking at your child angrily constitutes child abuse. When I was little and was being a pest, my mom used to give me a smack, and I turned out reasonably fine. At the very least I'm not a thieving, drug addicted juvenile piece of trash.

Children aren't taught any discipline anymore these days. I always cringe when I see a mother in a supermarket with the kids running around, grabbing all the items from the cart, trying to open half the things and being general nuisances, with the mother only going: "Come on darling, put that back" about 10 times - with no effect.

To the topic at hand - if fining parents for their children's lack of homework makes parents pay more attention to what their children do in school, then it's a perfectly fine measure.
Submit to authority or we'll beat you! Thats exactly the kind of morality/attitudes we should be implanting into children to make society better!
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 14:29   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Submit to authority or we'll beat you! Thats exactly the kind of morality/attitudes we should be implanting into children to make society better!
Behave like a responsible member of society or we'll make you is more like the truth. The alternative is removing them from society.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 14:42   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Submit to authority or we'll beat you! Thats exactly the kind of morality/attitudes we should be implanting into children to make society better!
No, it's teaching your children what is wrong and what is right. You can tell young children dozens of times that a stove is hot and that they shouldn't touch it with their own hands - but the children will always touch the stove, burn their hands and learn exactly what you've been telling them.

You don't learn from words, you learn from experience. Giving your children a whack when they misbehave teaches them that their actions have consequences. If they know that their actions will have a negative consequence, they will not engage in those actions.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 14:47   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Submit to authority or we'll beat you! Thats exactly the kind of morality/attitudes we should be implanting into children to make society better!


It's the society we live in.

If the threat of violence (and actual violence) is good enough for Politicians (lo Iraq) it should be good enough for the general populace.

Geese and Ganders etc.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 14:48   #23
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Some of us just held our hands near the stove to check the radiant heat.

I'm all for beating the stupid kids who can't understand the system.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 14:58   #24
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Originally posted by Iniluki
The reasons for the flaws in your personality are becoming clearer!

j/k

My mum was exactly the same. Did you ever get
Mum> "You have till the count of 3 to get up those stairs to your room, or i'll give you a good hiding!"
Me > "Awww mum"
Mum > "1"
Me > "Its not fair!!!"
Mum > "2"
Then as soon as she hit to i used to leg it up the stairs as fast as I could, usually tripping up and knocking myself out on the way


eeeeee the memories!
Oh yes

And 'I want never gets.', 'Don't ask don't want.', 'If I have to come up those stairs you'll be sorry!'*...ah, the memories

* If she did, you were.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:00   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leshy
No, it's teaching your children what is wrong and what is right. You can tell young children dozens of times that a stove is hot and that they shouldn't touch it with their own hands - but the children will always touch the stove, burn their hands and learn exactly what you've been telling them.

You don't learn from words, you learn from experience. Giving your children a whack when they misbehave teaches them that their actions have consequences. If they know that their actions will have a negative consequence, they will not engage in those actions.
Thats retarded. "Im unable to explain why this action is bad, so im going to hit you rather than give you a rational explanation. PS, I want to implicity hammer it into you from a young age that questioning authority is bad and that people in a position of power dont have to justify what they are telling you to do just as long as they can back up their words by force". If the only reason someone refrains from commiting a 'bad' action is because of fear of violence being used against them, then they will have no qualms about performing that action once the threat of violence is removed (ie, once they are too old for you to beat them up effectively).
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:05   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Thats retarded. "Im unable to explain why this action is bad, so im going to hit you rather than give you a rational explanation. PS, I want to hammer it into you from a young age that independant thought is bad and that people in authority dont have to justify what they are telling you just as long as they can back up their words by force". If the only reason someone refrains from commiting a 'bad' action is because of fear of violence being used against them, then they will have no qualms about performing that action once the threat of violence is removed (ie, once they are too old for you to beat them up effectively).


You appear to be being deliberately obtuse.

Small amount of pain whilst being told why what you are doing is bad and threat of more pain if you continue is better than just being told.

And Nod you're wrong ... the threat of violence is always there only when you get older it is generally refferred to as "The Law" and "Prison".

You need to teach a child at an early age that there are consequences to their actions and if those actions are bad then there will be negative acions when they perform them (and get caught).

As a child the punishment is smack ... As an adult the punishment is imprisonment.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:05   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Thats retarded. "Im unable to explain why this action is bad, so im going to hit you rather than give you a rational explanation". If the only reason someone refrains from commiting a 'bad' action is because of fear of violence being used against them, then they will have no qualms about performing that action once the threat of violence is removed (ie, once they are too old for you to beat them up effectively).
I disagree, as does history. Before the sociologists got their fingers in the pie things weren't perfect but they were nothing like as bad as they are now. How do you explain to a child that stealing is bad? You can't, not properly. You CAN however give them tanned hide and say 'Do that again and you'll get another one'. This instills the idea that stealing is bad cos otherwise mummy will slap you, once you grow up you are mentally capable of making your own judgement.

As an aside, I'd personally like to see bad manners made into a capital crime but that's just me.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:09   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
"Im unable to explain why this action is bad, so im going to hit you rather than give you a rational explanation.
Yes, because children below 7 years of age are known for their understanding of rational explanations, and adherence to logical rules.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:09   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dace
You appear to be being deliberately obtuse.

Small amount of pain whilst being told why what you are doing is bad and threat of more pain if you continue is better than just being told.

And Nod you're wrong ... the threat of violence is always there only when you get older it is generally refferred to as "The Law" and "Prison".

You need to teach a child at an early age that there are consequences to their actions and if those actions are bad then there will be negative acions when they perform them (and get caught).

As a child the punishment is smack ... As an adult the punishment is imprisonment.
Yes, they should know that there are consequences. However, the consequences should be the consequences of the action, rather than ones youve artifically created because youre too dumb/unwilling to tell them why the action will have a bad effect.

"Do your homework or you wont get into college and youll have to work in Burger King your entire life" versus "Do your homework or I'll hit you"

"Dont take heroin or you might end up a junkie and ruin your life" versus "Dont take heroin or I'll throw you in jail"

do you see?

Being "hit" is not a consequence of an action in the sense you mean. It has been artifically created by you. The relationship between an action and an artifically applied punishment is not cause and effect, it is merely correlation and is not a direct consequence of the action.


"Ive always been told that I shouldnt do action X because then external consequence Y will happen to me. But I'm now free from the effects of consequence Y. Therefore there is no reason why I shouldnt do X"
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:13   #30
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Re: Re: Should parents be fined when their kinds don't do their homework?

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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:14   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
"Dont take heroin or you might end up a junkie"
If only we had known earlier, we wouldn't have drug addicts. I suggest you contact local drug clinics and have them tell the doctors exactly that to the patients.

They'll be empty in no time!
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:15   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Yes, they should know that there are consequences. However, the consequences should be the consequences of the action, rather than ones youve artifically created because youre too dumb/unwilling to tell them why the action will have a bad effect.

"Do your homework or you wont get into college and youll have to work in Burger King your entire life" versus "Do your homework or I'll hit you"

"Dont take heroin or you might end up a junkie and ruin your life" versus "Dont take heroin or I'll throw you in jail"

do you see?

Being "hit" is not a consequence of an action in the sense you mean. It has been artifically created by you. The relationship between an action and an artifically applied punishment is not cause and effect, it is merely correlation and is not a direct consequence of the action.


Not getting into College if they don't do well at their studies IS the consequence of not doing their homework tho Nod.

You appear to be talking ****.

PRETTY MUCH WHAT YOU'D EXPECT FROM AN ONLY CHILD!
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:16   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leshy
If only we had known earlier, we wouldn't have drug addicts. I suggest you contact local drug clinics and have them tell the doctors exactly that to the patients.

They'll be empty in no time!
Maybe if people were given proper drugs education instead of being told "OMG DONT TRY ANY DRUGS THEY ARE ALL BAD AND THEYLL ALL KILL YOU OUTRIGHT EVERY SINGLE ONE AND EVEN IF THEY DONT KILL YOU THEN WE'LL THROW YOU IN JAIL FOR TRYING THEM!" then they might be able to appreciate the real consequences of their actions a bit more?
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:17   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dace
Not getting into College if they don't do well at their studies IS the consequence of not doing their homework tho Nod.

You appear to be talking ****.

PRETTY MUCH WHAT YOU'D EXPECT FROM AN ONLY CHILD!
I think you misread my post. "Do your homework or youre likely to mess up your life and spend it working as a binman" = good thing to tell a child. "Do your homework OR ELSE ILL HIT YOU OMG" = bad thing to tell a child.

Real consequences versus artificial ones.

Last edited by Nodrog; 11 Feb 2003 at 15:23.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:18   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Maybe if people were given proper drugs education
Standard junkie answer: "I don't give a ****."
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:18   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Maybe if people were given proper drugs education instead of being dont "OMG DONT TRY ANY DRUGS THEY ARE ALL BAD AND THEYLL ALL KILL YOU OUTRIGHT EVERY SINGLE ONE AND EVEN IF THEY DONT KILL YOU THEN WE'LL THROW YOU IN JAIL FOR IT!" then they might be able to appreciate the real consequences of their actions a bit more?


I had proper drug awareness classes at school nod.

As such i suspect that most people in Scotland did too.

AS WE BOTH KNOW THERE ARE NO JUNKIES OF MY AGE IN SCOTLAND!
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:19   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Maybe if people were given proper drugs education instead of being told "OMG DONT TRY ANY DRUGS THEY ARE ALL BAD AND THEYLL ALL KILL YOU OUTRIGHT EVERY SINGLE ONE AND EVEN IF THEY DONT KILL YOU THEN WE'LL THROW YOU IN JAIL FOR IT!" then they might be able to appreciate the real consequences of their actions a bit more?
And what would be the likeliness of that??

People are sheep Nodrog, YOU of all people should've realised that by now.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:19   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dace
I had proper drug awareness classes at school nod.

As such i suspect that most people in Scotland did too.

AS WE BOTH KNOW THERE ARE NO JUNKIES OF MY AGE IN SCOTLAND!
Are you trying to tell me that "All drugs are bad" isnt a standard staple of scottish drugs education, and that a balanced and rational view on drugs is given to children in school?
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:20   #39
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i was never 'beaten' as a child yet i seem to have turned out ok (in terms of behaviour anyway) so it doesn't always apply. However my mother is a teacher and she has mastered such arts as The Look and The Voice... just as effective
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:20   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dace
I had proper drug awareness classes at school nod.

As such i suspect that most people in Scotland did too.

AS WE BOTH KNOW THERE ARE NO JUNKIES OF MY AGE IN SCOTLAND!
Perhaps education should be made available before they turn into junkies?
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:21   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Asper
And what would be the likeliness of that??

People are sheep Nodrog, YOU of all people should've realised that by now.
If you treat people like sheep since the day they are born (which 90% of people seem to do), then they will be likely to end up like sheep. Its a self-fufilling prophecy. If someone has had "dont question authority ever", "dont think for yourself, just follow orders", and "the threat of force is a better means than ethical knowledge for ensuring that people dont commit crimes" hammered into their head since they were 2 years old, they are a lot less likely to think independantly as an adult. This is common sense.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:25   #42
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The main problem is that children don't think long-term. They want instant gratification, they want it and they want it now, regardless of what will happen in the end. Ask a child whether he wants to go eat at McDonalds five times in one week, and then not for another two months, or five times each month, and the child will choose the five times right now.

The answer to instant gratification is instant consequences. And if those consequences have to be artificially created, so be it.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:26   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leshy
The main problem is that children don't think long-term. They want instant gratification, they want it and they want it now, regardless of what will happen in the end. Ask a child whether he wants to go eat at McDonalds five times in one week, and then not for another two months, or five times each month, and the child will choose the five times right now.

The answer to instant gratification is instant consequences. And if those consequences have to be artificially created, so be it.
Most adults dont think long-term in any meaningful way. Do you think this could be because they werent encouraged to as children?
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:26   #44
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If you treat people like sheep since the day they are born (which 90% of people seem to do), then they will be likely to end up like sheep. Its a self-fufilling prophecy. If someone has had "dont question authority ever" hammered into their head since they were 2 years old, they are a lot less likely to think for themselves as an adult. This is common sense.

Being in the company of other people can do weird things to a person's mind.

I've been told God existed since I was born until I was 14 or so, all the time I did not question this. Then the world started opening up more and more, you start questioning things.

That is how the human mind works, only the people who have a tunnel vision hold on to their own beliefs and not question things that seemed to be based on thin air and mere words.

Words mean nothing.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:27   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Asper
Being in the company of other people can do weird things to a person's mind.

I've been told God existed since I was born until I was 14 or so, all the time I did not question this. Then the world started opening up more and more, you start questioning things.

That is how the human mind works, only the people who have a tunnel vision hold on to their own beliefs and not question things that seemed to be based on thin air and mere words.
So now youre saying that people arent sheep?
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:28   #46
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Originally posted by Asper


Words mean nothing.
You were tought that God existed and there was no alternative offered.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:29   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Most adults dont think long-term in any meaningful way.
Most adults do.

They don't spend all of their money on a new car right now if they know bills will be coming in the next month. They save up money in pension plans, they save money for the children to go to college, etc.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:30   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leshy
The main problem is that children don't think long-term. They want instant gratification, they want it and they want it now, regardless of what will happen in the end. Ask a child whether he wants to go eat at McDonalds five times in one week, and then not for another two months, or five times each month, and the child will choose the five times right now.

The answer to instant gratification is instant consequences. And if those consequences have to be artificially created, so be it.
I think you're underestimating how calculating kids are. Most of them probably realise that the parent will give in on the two month ban within a week of pestering/screaming etc.

Also, MacDonalds doesn't exactly illustrate the ability of adults to make rational long term assessments now, does it?
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:30   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Are you trying to tell me that "All drugs are bad" isnt a standard staple of scottish drugs education, and that a balanced and rational view on drugs is given to children in school?


I was told what drugs were what.

I was also shown many videos of what happens to junkies etc.

I have as such decided that i shall only be doing "hard" drugs if i wish to commit suicide.
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Unread 11 Feb 2003, 15:31   #50
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So now youre saying that people arent sheep?
reread it nodrog, sheez you of all people.

Being in the company of other people is what makes people sheep.

They take over the behaviour of a group, even start believing in the same things of a group as a whole, even if this is different then their upbringing taught them.

How often has there not been a article in the newspaper about someone doing the most unlikely things just because a mate or a group did it. It's group-behaviour.

How often is it not a whole group kicking the **** out of somewhere, whereas a single person of that group wouldn't dare doing it, or think about doing it, on his own.
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