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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 19:30   #1
meglamaniac
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The US Grand Prix

Well, if enough people haven't already been put off the sport by ****ing stuipd regulations, this just about takes the biscuit really. I suppose some blame has to go to Michelin for designing crap tyres but I mean really, it's beyond rediculous.

Today is the day Formula 1 lives or dies - depending on whether the FIA realise what a farce they've turned motor racing into or not.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 19:34   #2
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Oh I almost forgot: thank you very much ferrari for turning down the one solution which would have at least provided an entertaining race, which is afterall the point of this whole thing.
Get your heads out of your arses fs.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 19:36   #3
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Re: The US Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by meglamaniac
I suppose some blame has to go to Michelin for designing crap tyres but I mean really, it's beyond rediculous.
I think that's a bit unfair on Michelin. It's been said that this behaviour has been found, so far, to be impossible to replicate elsewhere, and they've been refused permission to actually find out what the cause actually is.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 19:38   #4
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Its not ferraris fault. I blame the FIA and Michelin. Ferrari wouldnt have too much 'leeway' against so many teams.

FIA have proven to be a bit crap.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 19:41   #5
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Here's my basic timeline I just came up with:

megla's US Grand Prix disaster timeline
-----------------------------------------------

michelin: omgwtf our tyres are shit, if you go round the bank at full throttle they'll explode
everyone else: ok how about we put a chicane in before the bank, to slow everyone down
ferrari and FIA: **** off
everyone else: ok we won't race then so it'll just be you ferrari, haha fags
jordan (just after the warmup lap): oh **** it, we'll race anyway because we're dirty turncoats
minardi: omgffswtfhax jordan are racing! well we'll go out to try and get some points off them then
crowd: we've paid $80 and we're getting shit, we're off
remaining crowd: lets throw full beer cans onto the track!


What a load of utter bollocks.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 19:42   #6
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Re: The US Grand Prix

I was asleep, woke up, logged onto the internet, checking my usual sites, checked SkySports, saw the 'Live US Grand Prix' link, cursed myself, ran to the tele and saw what had happenned. What this obviously means is I missed the start where all the Michelin runners came into the pits. Was it a surprise? Now, is the concensus that this race will count?
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 19:42   #7
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Fortunately American's wouldn't be watching the Grand Prix anyway.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 19:44   #8
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Christian Albers on #5!

heh.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 19:46   #9
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Re: The US Grand Prix

If anyone put money on one of the back-runners getting a podium they would be laughing now.

The best thing imo would have been for either nobody to race, so the crowd would get their money back, or everyone to race in a "non-official" race with a chicane installed.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 19:53   #10
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Re: The US Grand Prix

It's just amusing to see the stands emptying really.
The fallout will also be interesting - not just in terms of the sport, but in terms of this being America, so if Indy doesn't refund tickets then I think we should expect the happy cackle of lawyers decending for a damn good suing. I just hope the FIA get named as defendents because that would put a great big smile on my face.

Frankly, I feel robbed and I'm just watching it on TV so I think the fans that are there, and have paid not only the $80 to get in but the hotel bills, the flight tickets, etc should be forgiven a bit of discontent.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 19:58   #11
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Blaming Michelin for whats happened is incredibly harsh, they've acted how they have had to act, their tyres aren't safe and they can't sign them off for the race. They've made a mistake but thats it.

The blame is actually unclear, the FIA can't act as it goes against their rules to add chicanes/new tyres/etc just like michelin can't sign off somethign they know to be unsafe the FIA can't do something by the seat of their pants. Ferrari are obviously going to say **** you to everyone, its just a shitty situation that hadn't been thought about before hand.

It is funny though.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 20:08   #12
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Well in a direct sense they are responsible. Their job is to design tyres that can withstand the race. They have all the data about the track available to them, and Bridgestone managed to do it ok.
However, I think Michelin have already been punished enough in all of this - can you begin to imagine the damage this is doing to their brand and reputation? "Michelin - the best money can buy for drag racing; just don't ask us about corners".

In a more realistic sense, the blame lies with the FIA and Ferrari. Over the years the FIA have come to represent everything that is hated among motorsport fans, and today has only proved it. And Ferrari have just been their usual arrogant selves.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 20:09   #13
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Re: The US Grand Prix

F1 is pathetic now. The new rules were the first big joke. It takes away the actual racing element of a RACE?!!?!! They only changed them because Shumacher was a better driver in a better car than everyone else, you don't change the rules of football because Arsenal don't lose a game ffs. Its just stupid.

This race just shows how stupid the FIA are and how stupid the regulations have become. They should have had a race and i think there will be massive legal ramifications!
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 20:11   #14
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Re: The US Grand Prix

At the end of the day, are the yanks busy bitching to the camera upset because they missed a race or because they missed someone dying because of the governing body not doing anything to help after Michelin f'ked up.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 20:13   #15
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Re: The US Grand Prix

I'd imagine they're upset at having wasted upwards of $200 to see a non-event, and justifiably so.
As one of the guys they interviewed was saying, he'd saved two month's sallery to make the trip - who is going to give him that back?
The Indy managers have a fight on their hands.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 20:14   #16
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Michelin aren't responsible for the FIA and the teams not having contingency plans in place for this, they have to design tyres, if their tyres are unsafe they shouldn't and haven't run them.


The problem is that once this situation occured noone knew what to do because noone had really thought about this happening.



And i think it is worth $200, if only in a

i was there when they ****ed it up way
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 20:16   #17
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Well, I'm fully in favour of switching to a single tyre supplier - that way there would be no room for debate in a situation such as this. In this situation, either everyone races with a compromise (such as the chicane idea) or no-one races.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 20:16   #18
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
I'd imagine they're upset at having wasted upwards of $200 to see a non-event, and justifiably so.
As one of the guys they interviewed was saying, he'd saved two month's sallery to make the trip - who is going to give him that back?
The Indy managers have a fight on their hands.
That was the idiot in the Ferrari gear wasn't it ? but my point still stands, the tyres were unsafe, the governing body didn't allow different tyres or do anything about a chicane so the teams had no option.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 21:10   #19
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
Michelin aren't responsible for the FIA and the teams not having contingency plans in place for this, they have to design tyres, if their tyres are unsafe they shouldn't and haven't run them.


Michelin designed unsafe tyres, after having all info of the track.

My question would be, would the Michelin runners changed things if it was the other tyres who had faulted.

I think not.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 21:19   #20
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Well the track was resurfaced days before the race, and since bridgestone's american cousin, firestone, provided tyres for the Indy race that went before the F1 race did, got knowledge of the increased tyre wear.I'm not sure if michelin knew much about that, but they tend to gamble a bit more than bridgestone. Okay it backfired and correctly they said not to race the home straight flat out. It's a bit of a cock-up, but why was it not allowed to put the chicane in, or did ferrari just say no?
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 21:20   #21
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
or did ferrari just say no?
got it in one.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 21:23   #22
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Re: The US Grand Prix

tossers.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 21:30   #23
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Ferrari actually supported the chicane being added. A number of the team managers stated this during the 'race'. What Ferrari didnt agree to that the other 9 teams did (but which Jordan went back on forcing Minardi to also) was to pull out of the race, something thye shouldnt have had to do anyway.

Having done some reading I have to say to me its Michelin. For starters on Thursday there was 11 problems with the tyres which should have shown there was a problem and they should have been looking to resolve it sooner. Also the letter from the FIA indicates that tyre manufactuers are supposed to bring a backup set of tyres which may not be as racey but in situations like this would allow teams to race. Michelin apparently brought a backup tyre which wasnt being conservative and had the same problems

Also another thing this problem could have been sorted sooner. Ferrari had tyre problems earlier in the season which saw them have to withdraw Schumacher. They asked for something to be done so that teams didnt have to send drivers out on tyres that might not be safe but the Michelin teams refused to discuss it. perhaps if they hasnt they might have had a way to solve this in place
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 22:06   #24
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Re: The US Grand Prix

it is michelins fault. they knew the track, they knew how fast that one turn was, they knew that all the time, yet they didnt manage to come up a set of tyres that could be used. when bridgestone ****ed up in spain or whereever noone was crying, should michelin be allowed to change the whole bloddy grand prix just because they build tyres for more teams?? (and no, im no ferrari fan at all)
i fully agree with wakey
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 22:56   #25
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
it is michelins fault. they knew the track, they knew how fast that one turn was, they knew that all the time, yet they didnt manage to come up a set of tyres that could be used. when bridgestone ****ed up in spain or whereever noone was crying, should michelin be allowed to change the whole bloddy grand prix just because they build tyres for more teams?? (and no, im no ferrari fan at all)
i fully agree with wakey
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 23:35   #26
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Didnt Jordan and Minardi also have Bridgestone tyres, hence why they were able to race?

And Didnt Ferrari think "**** me , were miles behind in the constructors championship,and theyve been fannying about with the rules for years to try and cut our advantage, so lets make them enforce their rules to our benefit for once".

Fact is, F1 isnt about the best driver anymore, its about the best car. And no amount of bollocking around with tyres, weights, regulations, or any other bullshit is going to change it.

The FIA are in the process of killing their own sport with too many rules. And **** me, teams actually said "If our drivers might get killed, we shouldnt race. The FIA wont allow us to improve safety, so we are out of options", which was a last resort, and has irrevocably harmed their reputation (there wont be a US Grand Prix again in quite some time) to the point where they need to look at their regulations and say "Are we encouraging racing on an equal footing, or putting lives at risk to make things more exciting".

I have this funny feeling they are almost certainly going to come up with the wrong answer.
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Unread 19 Jun 2005, 23:37   #27
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by zakoff
F1 is pathetic now. The new rules were the first big joke. It takes away the actual racing element of a RACE?!!?!! They only changed them because Shumacher was a better driver in a better car than everyone else, you don't change the rules of football because Arsenal don't lose a game ffs. Its just stupid.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 00:28   #28
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Re: The US Grand Prix

My suggestion:
Bring back the 1994 rules.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 00:50   #29
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Formula 1 is a shit and dying sport, today just proved that.

Thanks, michelen, FIA, Ferrari, Michelin!

Soon this shite will be off my tv and replaced by a sport where SOMETHING ACTUALLY HAPPENS
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 01:18   #30
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Exclamation Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
I was asleep, woke up, logged onto the internet, checking my usual sites, checked SkySports, saw the 'Live US Grand Prix' link, cursed myself, ran to the tele and saw what had happenned.
You know Stew, it's pronounced 'Gran Pree'.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 01:59   #31
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
Formula 1 is a shit and dying sport, today just proved that.

Thanks, michelen, FIA, Ferrari, Michelin!

Soon this shite will be off my tv and replaced by a sport where SOMETHING ACTUALLY HAPPENS
You really, really, REALLY shouldnt say that when your ITV Regional company is Scottish Television.

You KNOW that what youll end up with is CIS Insurance Crown Green Bowls from some sports centre in Coatbridge.

For 4 hours at a time.

Without even the saving grace of Dougie Donnelly to smirk to yourself whilst saying "Tillicoultry, Near Stirling".
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 02:23   #32
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Re: The US Grand Prix

I like the soothing mind numbing appeal of a Grand Prix to combat a Sunday afternoon hangover.

Unfortunately they're not on in the afternoon very often now.

As such it sucks for that reason AND THAT REASON ONLY!
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 06:46   #33
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Michelin designed unsafe tyres, after having all info of the track.

My question would be, would the Michelin runners changed things if it was the other tyres who had faulted.

I think not.
Michelin's tyres were unsafe, we don't know why. After they declared them to be unsafe the resulting conflict between the teams and FIA was not Michelins fault.

The issue of how the problem was dealt with after it occured is distinct from why that problem occured. There have been safety withdrawls in the past, the problem here was noone had thought ahead to a situation where a tyre supplier declares its entire range as unsafe, even with a single tyre supplier this could happen, if bridgestone were the sole supplier they could find their tyres as unsafe. Its how that sceneario is dealt with (or wasn't dealt with) that caused the farce to occur.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 15:02   #34
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Re: The US Grand Prix

The case is very simple to me. The michelin teams are to blame. They could have raced the race. The4y could have changed the tyres every 10 laps, they could have driven the dangerous curve with a speed limit.

But they did not want to do it. They tried to blackmail the FIA into giving them priviliges which they did not deserve. I also think that the teams are incredibly ridicilous in their act "we wanted to save our drivers from danger". It´stheir duty to do that. They cant take credit for that and act all noble. The michelin teams did what they did, to embarass the FIA. They didnt get their extra wishes, so they acted like little children.

"Mommy , I dont want to eat that buhuuuuuu"


very, very shamefull !
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 15:05   #35
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Re: The US Grand Prix

TBH im very surprised that even one michelin team didn't just race very slowly round, chaging tyres like perle said, ambling round, slowing down as if the chicane was there and getting the points for #7 & #8 places.



edit/ scrap the changing tyres, they'd have lost the points, just driving round slowly
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 15:24   #36
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
everyone else: ok how about we put a chicane in before the bank, to slow everyone down
ferrari and FIA: **** off
Actually, Ferrari said it was up to FIA to decide and FIA told them to **** off.

FIA is ruining the sport with completely utter stupid rules and regulations.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 15:35   #37
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Didnt Jordan and Minardi also have Bridgestone tyres, hence why they were able to race?

Yes, but they wanted to race (for easy champ points) as opposed to everyone pull out where everyone would have got their money back.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 15:41   #38
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
Yes, but they wanted to race (for easy champ points) as opposed to everyone pull out where everyone would have got their money back.

according to Paul Stoddard, Minardi was only out there because Jordan decided to race after all.

and for some funny reason i believe this is the truth.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 16:34   #39
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perle
They could have changed the tyres every 10 laps
Not hey couldn't, you're not allowed to change the tyres unless they are punctured etc.

What if someone had crashed and died?
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 16:40   #40
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
Actually, Ferrari said it was up to FIA to decide and FIA told them to **** off.

FIA is ruining the sport with completely utter stupid rules and regulations.
not allowing a chicane to be inserted one hour before the race is really a stupid rule.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 16:45   #41
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by at0mic.c0w
not allowing a chicane to be inserted one hour before the race is really a stupid rule.
They could have postponed the race.
The point is, anything (including running the race at a later date) would have been better than that farce.




What confuses me is how can tyres vary so much I understand grain but apart from that
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 16:55   #42
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Re: The US Grand Prix

as i understand it they build a tyore for each race, they are allowed 3 sets of tyres to try. one of these sets is supposed to be some kind of backup, not so fast, but one that should work if the other two fail. in this case the third set also faild. that is what caused all the trouble.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 16:56   #43
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
as i understand it they build a tyore for each race, they are allowed 3 sets of tyres to try. one of these sets is supposed to be some kind of backup, not so fast, but one that should work if the other two fail. in this case the third set also faild. that is what caused all the trouble.
But what actually changes in a tyre? Compound? I understand this to some extent, but how can a tyre change so much between each race?
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 16:59   #44
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by at0mic.c0w
not allowing a chicane to be inserted one hour before the race is really a stupid rule.
They actually had since Schumachers tyre 'broke' and Michelin said it definitely were a tyre-problem to get that chicane built.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 17:09   #45
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
But what actually changes in a tyre? Compound? I understand this to some extent, but how can a tyre change so much between each race?
i have no idea
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 17:21   #46
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
But what actually changes in a tyre? Compound? I understand this to some extent, but how can a tyre change so much between each race?

I don't have much of an idea, except they probably change the materials used, the positions and shapes of the reinforcements, dimensions - to suit loading. Obviously the outer shape/dimensions must stay the same but if for instance you're on a nice sweeping track with low downforce and no sharp corners, the suspension/tyres aren't heavily loaded, you can shave its thickness out to decrease weight, use a heavier stickier compound for the weight you've saved etc.

Erm they just change it
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 18:50   #47
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Nothing drums up interest in a sport like a good crash, they was better off racing would have done wonders for viewing figures.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 18:56   #48
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Re: The US Grand Prix

but then the next race wouldnt be so good when only the 6 drivers on bridgestone are the only ones left alive
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 21:16   #49
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Re: The US Grand Prix


yea i watch the GP mainly to see some big crash at the start.


it was stupid running the race with 6 runners but tbh its the only way jorden or minardi are ever gonna get points.
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Unread 20 Jun 2005, 21:45   #50
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Re: The US Grand Prix

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
as i understand it they build a tyore for each race, they are allowed 3 sets of tyres to try. one of these sets is supposed to be some kind of backup, not so fast, but one that should work if the other two fail. in this case the third set also faild. that is what caused all the trouble.
By all account they failed to bring a backup tyre. They brought just the hard and soft compond both of which were of the same design and thus had tthe same problem. If they had bothered bringing the backup tyre like they were supposed to, a tyre that is supposed to air heaverly on the side of caution and thus shouldnt have had any problems the race could have gone ahead

Quote:
"It seems the Michelin teams failed to bring a back-up tyre as usual with them to Indianapolis. The FIA offered them options which would have allowed them to compete safely within the limitations of their tyres. For some reason they chose not to accept those options."
Max Mosley, FIA president
After making a tyre that was unsafe and then screwing up by not bringing a back up tyre it does seem like they tried to blackmail the FIA into making changes to the rules to help them save face. They dragged their heels only putting forward ideas that would help them beat bridgestone in the race even if it didnt count for points at the end of the day. They hoped the FIA would fold so they could get all the good publicity that winning the race brings but the FIA wouldnt budge and I have to say that tbh while it wasnt good for the sport it might actually be better than if they had because that would have been a dangourous precedent to set. if rules were changed on a whim and track changes made just because somewhere someone was unable to abide by the rules
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