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1 Sep 2003, 12:44
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#1
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[Vision]
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 897
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the bitching about r10 combat system...
I wonder where that comes from
This discussion is also on the beta forums, but i thought... lets take it out to public 
From what i have seen in beta PaX requires alot more tactics then the old rounds of planetarion.
In the old pa it was usually a few shipstypes and some close by noobs or a farm here and there to roid yourself to the top.
This changed a bit when races where introduced, no each race had its own "perfect match", peg/demeter/wyverns for terrans, Fi/Co for Xan, beetle/roach/BW/pod or tula/mantis/guard for the cathaar and most of the time a zik DE or FR fleet (or later on the vulture Co fleet when that was introduced).
I dunno what your thought about that is but basicly it required little to no tactics, about every terran that knew the game played with that combo above same goes for the other races... except for Zikonian, as they where the race (when playing the stealing style) that had to build thei fleet around the special pods they stole. This actually required some thinking and gave zik the ability to (in theory) attack every race in its weak spot. The could attack with 4 different classes of pods and flak ships.
The same happened now. Every race has its own "perfect fleet" combo. For terran the CR/BS, for cathaar their FR/CR, for Xan their FI/FR and zik stayed a bit of everything. But there is one major difference, every ship type can take roids, this means that you don't have to focus only on your perfect fleet combo. You are able to be alot more flexible when you have a bit of everything (ofcourse you can still be the strongest in your "perfect match" fleet). When you do that there is no target that you in theory couldn't take (by looking for the weakness in their defence). And if you target is reasonebly good in everything you could attack with your strongest combo and still take it, though this does mean your defence will be weaker @ home.
I find this new combat system to be so open for tactics, there are so many fleet combo's & team-up possibilities its just great imho. The main problem here is that from now on it will pay of to spend more time on looking for your target/assembling your fleet to attack it. "Will that combo be worth it? or will i be better of this way".
Added to this that it pays of to attack bigger planets then yourself (in score) it will make the game completely different.
The "veterans" that complain about the combat system and tactics surprise me really. In the old pa it was "find a target around the 20% limit, calc for the 15% cap and attack", simple and effective enough to get to the top eventually. Big targets just got overwhelmed by "millions" of flak ships and a small roid fleet to get the roids after the target ran its fleet. No real tactic to it (except for maybe finding the right time to attack).
Now you have to attack bigger players to gain score, which means the easy winning days by just being extremely active and own some n00bs or farms are over. You now have to assemble the "perfect attack fleet" every time you attack. and that fleet will be completely different echt time you attack.
It sounds to me this requires alot more tactics then the old launch/bash/take roids "tactics".
And the Covert Ops complaining... ofcourse some ppl will dislike it or not understand it, but that doesn't mean its bad. Its all part of the learning system. I think there is no one yet who knows exactly how the Covert Ops work and what it takes to get the most profit out of them.
I think the main problem with this Pa is that most of the "Veteran" players stick to much to what they where used to in the old pa, only to find out that those old tactics/ways don't work anymore. I say for those ppl its time to let go the old pa and try to play the game like you would play any new game.... by exploring its possibilities.
I think it would be interesting to see here who can exactly point out what is wrong with the current combat system compared to the old pa (as that is what the ppl that complain compare it to). I think it will be nice if ppl told us what exactly was so great about the old combat system that is missing in this one (or changed), most times i hear "the old combat system sucks" they can hardly point out a good reason for why its so bad.
I hope this turns out to be a interesting discussion instead of a yes/no thingie ;P
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[Vision] in a lost dream, contributing to The 5th Element at present
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1 Sep 2003, 13:00
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#2
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xXx
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 114
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I agree on the most things you just said Wandows.
However Im missing one important thing in it.
PaX is not only about getting roids. Looking at the univers now people are still only obsessed with roids. This will change as soon as people come to their bigger ships and learn how to attack/strike with those. But people looking to much to the past is a given thing, its human nature.. look at real life. So yes its hard for most to give that up.
Good thread mate. 
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1 Sep 2003, 13:05
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,663
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In a way structures might become the new roids. If you want to hurt your target, don't go for roids, go for structures (you'll get more bonus too).
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<smith> You're 15 and full of shit.
<Furious_George> no, im 22
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1 Sep 2003, 13:33
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#4
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Käptn Karacho
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,360
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the main problem of r10 combat is the reduced number of ship classes and simplified targeting. u need only 1 ship class to cover 3 classes and a galm8 to cover the 4th class. the exploitation of other ppl's weaknesses is a thing of the past since everyone should be able to build 3 (or 4) different ships to cover 3 (or 4) classes effectively - especially since they are now 'rated' instead of described by the stats.
i think ppl are also underestimating the value of roids in r10. first: stealing roids (from bigger planets) gives quite some score. second: the more roids you have the more ships you can build to send out and make score.
the disturbance factor in roiding is a nice idea but doesn't work too well with only 4 ship classes. nothing has been done to discourage bash and roid. formulas might prove me wrong but we don't have them and until everyone has seen for themselves some time will pass.
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at0mic.c0w - #strategy
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1 Sep 2003, 13:55
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#5
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[Vision]
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 897
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Quote:
Originally posted by at0mic.c0w
the main problem of r10 combat is the reduced number of ship classes and simplified targeting. u need only 1 ship class to cover 3 classes and a galm8 to cover the 4th class. the exploitation of other ppl's weaknesses is a thing of the past since everyone should be able to build 3 (or 4) different ships to cover 3 (or 4) classes effectively - especially since they are now 'rated' instead of described by the stats.
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that is true yes... But that is teh same for everything, and when done right attacking should still be no problem as there is no one who (for example) can cover a pure FR fleet attacking them effectively. It only means that attacking will now be with overall more losses then it used to be.
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i think ppl are also underestimating the value of roids in r10. first: stealing roids (from bigger planets) gives quite some score. second: the more roids you have the more ships you can build to send out and make score.
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You are right about the score gains, but roids become less important due to the limited amount you can roid effectively and loosing score/income when getting to many roids
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the disturbance factor in roiding is a nice idea but doesn't work too well with only 4 ship classes. nothing has been done to discourage bash and roid. formulas might prove me wrong but we don't have them and until everyone has seen for themselves some time will pass.
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this i can't really comment on as like u said the exact formula;s aren't known. But i assume they will be tweaked when things prove to be to easy/hard
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[Vision] in a lost dream, contributing to The 5th Element at present
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1 Sep 2003, 14:04
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#6
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X$X
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Location: Location!
Posts: 293
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Very good post. I've been having similar discussions in the betas, and there is an amazing resistance to change.
People are finding it amazingly difficult to look at the overall picture, and are generally just complaining about individual aspects of the new game.
The strategic possibilities of 1 tick attacks and 1 tick defence are getting no comments, the same with the fake attack and the ability to send a big fleet that kills everything that targets X, then a small fleet of X 1 tick later, the strong encouragement to counter-attack, the problems of being too large to find big targets, I could go on...
There is also an amazng blindness to the flaws of old PA. I'm sorry, but fleet composition in old PA was simply a matter of following the advice on the forums about ratios and battlecalcing until you found a good fleet for 15% cap. The game design encouraged blocking, bashing, over-penalised roid/ship losses and turned the whole thing into a competition to see who has the most friends and who can stay up the latest. Funadmantally, it was a lousy game with a great social system attached, and after 9.5 rounds of it all the strategy has been done to death. It's time to move on.
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1 Sep 2003, 14:13
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,663
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I'm not convinced by the people advocating building 1 ship class to fight 1 ship class.
I prefer the 'crossfire' approach. Xan can build a Fi and a CR to kill CR class, it is better coz the CR targeted can only shoot back at one of them. I'm not sure it would work for every race though.
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<smith> You're 15 and full of shit.
<Furious_George> no, im 22
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1 Sep 2003, 18:25
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Norway
Posts: 109
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Quote:
Originally posted by Makhil
I'm not convinced by the people advocating building 1 ship class to fight 1 ship class.
I prefer the 'crossfire' approach. Xan can build a Fi and a CR to kill CR class, it is better coz the CR targeted can only shoot back at one of them. I'm not sure it would work for every race though.
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a problem then would be when you are attacking, since you spread your fleet out alot...and its also a good idea to use the best ships availibe, but if you are inactive, and unable to attack alot it might be a good idea...
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1 Sep 2003, 18:33
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#9
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Rawr rawr
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Upside down
Posts: 5,300
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I just had my very first battle, and I was a bit surprised that 650 of my FI could completely destroy 400 other fighters in one tick with only 150 losses (My Daggers vs Mosquito's).
Apart from that, I was even more surprised when this battle made my score jump almost 2k (I think... didn't note my previous score).
Activity (in the sense of taking action) does indeed raise your score more than roids.
oh... and another thing... how can I steal more money than it costs me with this "steal money" covert op? I just can't pull it off.
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1 Sep 2003, 20:06
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#10
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andy_r
Very good post. I've been having similar discussions in the betas, and there is an amazing resistance to change.
People are finding it amazingly difficult to look at the overall picture, and are generally just complaining about individual aspects of the new game.
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I partially blame that on the lack of stats and formulas. I mean, you can imagine that certain tactics ought to be successful, but then maybe they won't be. It often comes down to the details of the formulas and which way your imagination likes to run. The natural tendency is to assume the new (unknown) formulas are similar to the old (known) formulas and to view the game as just another round. That may turn out to be incorrect, but after 10 rounds it's probably not an outrageous assumption (PAX is hardly the first round to be tagged with the "new, improved" label).
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The strategic possibilities of 1 tick attacks and 1 tick defence are getting no comments, the same with the fake attack and the ability to send a big fleet that kills everything that targets X, then a small fleet of X 1 tick later, the strong encouragement to counter-attack, the problems of being too large to find big targets, I could go on...
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But is any of this really new, though? Fake attacks aren't new. Big fleets followed by small ones certainly isn't new. Etc.
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There is also an amazng blindness to the flaws of old PA. I'm sorry, but fleet composition in old PA was simply a matter of following the advice on the forums about ratios and battlecalcing until you found a good fleet for 15% cap. The game design encouraged blocking, bashing, over-penalised roid/ship losses and turned the whole thing into a competition to see who has the most friends and who can stay up the latest.
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I've yet to be convinced that PAX "fixes" any of these flaws. Even fleet comps and battlecalcs may be available before too long.
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Funadmantally, it was a lousy game with a great social system attached, and after 9.5 rounds of it all the strategy has been done to death. It's time to move on.
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Of course PA was stale and in need of change, but criticism of particular changes does not imply that the old system was good--just that the new system may be as bad, or worse. I'm also reminded of a quote from Machiavelli's The Prince:
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And it ought to be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things. Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new.
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Who will do well under the new order? Without the stats and formulas, I think it's hard even to be a lukewarm defender. :/
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1 Sep 2003, 21:52
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#11
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General (Adjective Army)
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Yorkshire, England.
Posts: 825
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I'm more concerned about the effect of automatic launches and the (only) -1 ETA for alliance defence.
Everyone and his grandmother/dog/second cousin (delete as appropriate) will set their launches at 04:00 GMT (approx). This will mean that anyone who is asleep will be unable to get defence from outside his galaxy (unless his galaxy has a night watchman to scream in alliance channels - and get a response inside of 1 hour). This will happen night after night after night.......... well, you get the picture.
Defence will rapidly become but a distant memory - we'll all be forced to launch counter-attacks instead (at a much less advantageous time of day).
Alternatively we can just join in with everyone else - pick 3 targets, set launchtimes and go to bed. Wake up and log in to see how lucky we've been.
Ah well. :-(
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1 Sep 2003, 21:57
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#12
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pe0n
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Kindom of the Netherlands
Posts: 1,347
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This game has got **** to do with tactics. Send a fleet and get lucky. I haven't got a clue what I'm doing even though I tried to get every available information there was. Best players will be those who's alliances are best at back engineering the formula's. Now tell me where's the tactics in that.
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1 Sep 2003, 23:48
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#13
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Ark-miner wannabe
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,005
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Quote:
Originally posted by Structural Integrity
oh... and another thing... how can I steal more money than it costs me with this "steal money" covert op? I just can't pull it off.
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Do it to planets that are bigger than yourself, and hope he has some free ofc 
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2 Sep 2003, 14:26
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#14
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Ark-miner wannabe
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,005
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Ok sorry for that, reckoned it was alright since the beta is public 
*deleted*
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2 Sep 2003, 19:42
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#15
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Käptn Karacho
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,360
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Quote:
Originally posted by dabult
Ok sorry for that, reckoned it was alright since the beta is public
*deleted*
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i figured if it looks like there is a problem it should be on the beta boards. i also thought it was a bit pointless to be posted in here.
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at0mic.c0w - #strategy
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6 Sep 2003, 22:20
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#16
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gerbie
This game has got **** to do with tactics. Send a fleet and get lucky. I haven't got a clue what I'm doing even though I tried to get every available information there was. Best players will be those who's alliances are best at back engineering the formula's. Now tell me where's the tactics in that.
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I think we have a winner here.
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<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
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6 Sep 2003, 23:32
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#17
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Veteran
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 48
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Quote:
Originally posted by at0mic.c0w
the exploitation of other ppl's weaknesses is a thing of the past since everyone should be able to build 3 (or 4) different ships to cover 3 (or 4) classes effectively
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That may be true theoretically but a lot of ppl dont. They build attacking fleets and dont bother building ships not required to attack.
I am where I am purely by exploiting fleet weeknesses.
~browolf
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7 Sep 2003, 00:33
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#18
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Commodore
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,176
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Quote:
Originally posted by Browolf
I am where I am purely by exploiting fleet weeknesses.
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and being a cathaar ofc
But realisticly - if someone was part of an alliance then they should only be building their attacking fleet - if you get incoming that you do not target then borrow somone else's attacking fleet. far more efficient
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#Strategy ; #Support - Sovereign
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7 Sep 2003, 00:44
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#19
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pe0n
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Kindom of the Netherlands
Posts: 1,347
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ultimate Newbie
and being a cathaar ofc
But realisticly - if someone was part of an alliance then they should only be building their attacking fleet - if you get incoming that you do not target then borrow somone else's attacking fleet. far more efficient
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It's random gals of 10 people. A significant portion of those might be prepaid accounts that decide they don't want to play afterall (for whatever reason). That strategy will not be realistic for most players/galaxies.
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round 6 noob
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round 9 rank 941 23:1:9 - TFD HC
round 9.5 rank 860 22:7:3 - TFD HC
round 10: rank unknown (was #1 for a while) 5:2:5 - Vengeance pe0n
round 10.5: rank 683 19:10:2 - VGN member
round 11: rank 138 8:8:4 - VsN member
round 12: rank 515 - VGN 'special attack officer' -> jumped ship to Rock
round 13: rank 85: NoS
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7 Sep 2003, 01:10
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#20
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Commodore
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,176
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gerbie
It's random gals of 10 people. A significant portion of those might be prepaid accounts that decide they don't want to play afterall (for whatever reason). That strategy will not be realistic for most players/galaxies.
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Well, with all the classes of units being of the same ETA, i was thinking that because 'real' PA would have hour ticks, thus giving alliances an hour and 5 mins to send defence, by exploiting their ETA advantage.
Although this assumes that a regional based EtA that was promised will not eventuate.
also, in-gal defence can comprise of anything that's left home... its not like we have to worry about ETA in gal.
__________________
#Strategy ; #Support - Sovereign
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"The Cake is a Lie."
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9 Sep 2003, 06:44
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#21
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Arrogant Fck
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 1,031
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I can't really see why you say "veterans" are having trouble adapting, atleast my friends who've played for ages seem to be adapting totally. I haven't even played the beta, all I've done is read some of these convos and had a look at the manual and I'm rather sure what I'll be doing every step of the round, this really isn't that much different from the past, it just got a cosmetic make-over and got simplified to bits to make way for new features that were suposed to make a difference but that never really will.
The one thing I like is that galaxy takes a more prominant position in your success, then again I've allways had **** all luck when it comes to random galaxies...
The new round is just as much a flip of the coin as every other random round has been, sure you can do good even in a ****e gal but if you're lucky enough to get a better gal you will have it a lot easier and that will in the end determine everything.
ps. The point about reverse-engineering is also quite valid, though I have a feeling once I develop a sence to exactly how efficient combat is(more like rnd3 where you could kill a fleet in a tick or more like later rounds when you could spend 10ticks shooting at a fleet and it'd still sort of be there) reverse engineering won't make much of an differnce.
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[OLMIT] / [TreKronor]
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10 Sep 2003, 00:10
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#22
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Commodore
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,176
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sun_Tzu
I have a feeling once I develop a sence to exactly how efficient combat is(more like rnd3 where you could kill a fleet in a tick or more like later rounds when you could spend 10ticks shooting at a fleet and it'd still sort of be there)
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hmm, sounds like R4 WF firing on Spiders or Interceptors. 'lo 14k res of WF to till 1k res of FI \o/
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reverse engineering won't make much of an differnce.
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On the contrary, i think it will. Having the power to accurately calculate a battle is an obvious advantage over everyone who cannot. This is in particular regard to capturing roids, killing structures and gaining/loosing score, thoguh the still pertain to normal ship vs ship combat.
eg, you still may kill his fleet, but if you gain buggar all score (or loose score) then was it really worth attacking? or perhaps more accurately, precisely what ships should i send to gain the maximum number of roids most cheaply (seen that one before?  ).
regardless, knowing the outcome before the battle has begun has obvious advantages to stabbing in the dark.
with the exception of the 'fun factor' perhaps...
__________________
#Strategy ; #Support - Sovereign
--- --- ---
"The Cake is a Lie."
Last edited by Ultimate Newbie; 10 Sep 2003 at 00:17.
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