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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 00:11   #1
Biggie
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Now that PA is pretty much over

I was thinking earlier today, and am curious....

How is it that people like Killmark controlled hundreds of planets. I have been around this game for ages and am just curious, not trying to start trouble, and I am referring to passed rounds. I am just curious.

If anyone can help it would be appreciated

And I am not looking for an answer like "l33t Hax0r" this is a serious question
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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 00:13   #2
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By using a program to run those planets?
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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 00:15   #3
Scoot951
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By using bots to sign up for thousands of PA freebie accounts (and I presume e-mails at some free site as well), enough of them would get activated to give him 700-800-whatever number of planets he had. This round ofc he'd have to pay for them all, doesn't mean he doesn't still have a few tho.
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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 00:26   #4
Ulysses
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Yes Killmark was one hell of an expert at cheating, he was responsible for a considerable amount of damage last round, and aided significantly to the overall outcome of the round. (not that the people who benefited would admit it?)

He used a program, a bot, of quite clever manufacture to manipulate and control quite a number of acounts, thus allowing some players to launch just pod attacks supported by several bot planets to capture roids.

Unfortunately this was not discovered until too late to put right the damage he had done, both his alliance and his galaxy benefited hugely due to his cheating. They of course denied all complicity, but the overall effect was to slew the game in their favour.
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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 01:03   #5
Jorinn
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I note someone else wrote the alleged bot for him r5 I think, round where he org'd 2 gals, think it was r5 could of been other.
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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 01:04   #6
Biggie
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leshy
By using a program to run those planets?
arggggg
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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 01:06   #7
Biggie
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So does someone actually sit there and make up the false info for 100's of accounts..... or do they just not have a life or a job?

I only play WC3 nowadays so this is trully just to calm my curiousity

In round 4 a friend showed me a bot of his that controlled like 12 planets, but he put TONS of work into it.... I could not magine 100's
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R2 :: Some high newbie Cluster (GvE)
R3 :: 49:4:17 (GvE/KBz/ViruS)
R4 :: 80:14:6 (ViruS)
R5 :: 9:21:1 (ViruS/T&P) #urwins
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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 09:55   #8
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Randomisation of words, and then all put into a database.

It would work easily that way, since there s no way anone would go and check whether it was all true.
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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 10:34   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pulsar
Randomisation of words, and then all put into a database.

It would work easily that way, since there s no way anone would go and check whether it was all true.
Actually its not that simple.


Killmark
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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 10:36   #10
Biggie
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kill


Actually its not that simple.


Killmark
why not be a P.A.L. and tell now :P
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R4 :: 80:14:6 (ViruS)
R5 :: 9:21:1 (ViruS/T&P) #urwins
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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 11:01   #11
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the pc here cant do wc3. but thats ok leaves more time for me to do hollandorz
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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 11:06   #12
Al_zz
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There is no need for making hundreds of free email accounts either. I use several mailalliases on my mail accounts and I can make unlimited alliases on my own domain. I even offered a gal of mine all emailalliasses named
[email protected]
[email protected]
...
but they were not that interested. It could have been usefull though in communication cause you do not need to remember any emailaddy of your galm8s and you can still mail everybody very easily and only me would know their real emailaddy unless you give it away by sending that info with your mail and after a round it takes about 3 minutes for me to remove all alliases.

Also I see incoming mail much faster at work than any other notice and my firewall does not allow for icq or other messagers (even with all kind of software to get around the firewall) but email pops ups on my screen generally within a minute of sending

To make hundreds of hotmailaccounts via script is also doable probably but why bother even.

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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 12:09   #13
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well killmark since your cheating days are behind you and you are a clean, honest alliance HC now (alledgedly), surely if you won't be cheating again you would be able to disclose how the bots worked. the onyl reason i can think of that would prevent you from releasing how it worked and its weaknesses would be if the program was still in use on a slightly smaller scale this round limited by money, and you did not want to expose how they would be able to be caught with them still in use.

awaiting your reply.
 
Unread 29 Oct 2002, 12:12   #14
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i also find it amusing how killmark himself remained out of this discussion until somebody challenged how simple it was to run the bots, then he very quickly appeared to point out that it was difficult and tehrefore only someone with his skill in computers could manipulate them.

very telling of ego, imo.
 
Unread 29 Oct 2002, 12:19   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oktober
well killmark since your cheating days are behind you and you are a clean, honest alliance HC now (alledgedly), surely if you won't be cheating again you would be able to disclose how the bots worked. the onyl reason i can think of that would prevent you from releasing how it worked and its weaknesses would be if the program was still in use on a slightly smaller scale this round limited by money, and you did not want to expose how they would be able to be caught with them still in use.

awaiting your reply.
Dont hold your breath my friend, once a cheat always a cheat.

Imho, once it had been discovered that he was once again playing the game, his planet should have been deleted, purely on the basis that he is a known cheat, even if that meant he had a refund from 5th Season, it would at least give us the knowledge that one cheat has had a just punishment.

As for skill? Not a lot of skill is needed, all you need are the tools to do the job, and I doubt Killmark could construct them himself?

After all if he was that smart he would never have been caught?
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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 13:12   #16
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How exactly did they catch him ?
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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 13:18   #17
Kileman
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Quote:
Originally posted by Neo
How exactly did they catch him ?
News scans and gal status's were evidence enough

On one big attack in r6 it was thousands of planets with exactly the same fleet etc hitting 1 particular gal.... then in r7 it was his gal having a massive amount of random defenders and a number escorting him and his gal mates attacks... and ofc the farming. When you see a large number of planets always interacting with each other, never acting like humans etc it becomes evident that they are most likely bots.

However im unsure about the whole ip checking thing, as surely they werent all run off the same ip... the creators couldnt be that stupid could they?
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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 15:42   #18
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in r6, i was given a bot:
it's title was "launcher".
you had a timetable, could add a mission for a specificated time:
launching any fleet, making a fleetcomposition, recalling, checking for incomings.
it would play a selected sound when u had incomings.
so you could make a "new mission"
give in login/pass
select what it should do, if it should do it every hour or only once and so on.

then again, i dunno if it was based on a proxy or on ur connection, if it was on urs, you hardly could login into a whole gal's accounts...

i tried it out once, launched a pod at the top planet
i think it didn't work tho ...
 
Unread 29 Oct 2002, 19:59   #19
mikay
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I would guess registering several domains (3-4 were prolly enough) all pointing to your own mailserver.

Get a little prog to rip out the l/p from incoming mail and add it to its account database.

Find a dump of R4 and rip off names, loads of options there.

Prolly get the bots to log in randomly every 3-4 hours to do maintenance, a bit of slippage on the tech tree is no big deal. Add the current ship info & fleet locations to a database.

Prolly set profiles so you can have different planets having different fleet types.

Have a nice front end where you choose what fleet you want to send where and prolly schedule in launch times. The front end could then check the database and choose which planets to launch from. You shouldn't need to even know what planets are bots, just how much fleet you have available.

I can't imagine it's too difficult but a lot of things to cover so a lot of work involved.

just a guess tho cos I'm much too lazy
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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 21:20   #20
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Well since PA is over and Killmark’s playing days are over after getting cnutted to hell the past few days, I might aswell divulge in what I know about the ‘Killmark Saga’.

I first met Killmark in Round5 after getting an account in his gal due to a gal mate leaving due to poor health. I played along a couple of weeks fairly no farming, no multi-ing, no usage of bots. However due to continued school work and late night shifts at work I gradually began to miss launches this prompting Killmark to ask me why I kept missing launches, I told him my situation and he replied “Speak with BeatPlanet”. BeatPlanet also going under the guises Gavin, Lucian, Horace and some others I forget. Anyway basically BeatPlanet is the botmaker, I spoke to him and he told me he could ‘help’ with my problem, he dcc’ed me this file over IRC upon opening it, I realised it was indeed a ‘bot’. This bot was immense it could do everything you needed and the good part of it was it ran through a proxy I believe so IP’s could not be matched. At this point I pointed out I did not have a 24/7 connection and he said no probs just gimme your user/pass and your instructions for your fleets each night and I’ll add it to the list. Basically BeatPlanet ran the whole gal he would have instructions from basically about 19/20 of the whole gal, a few remained clean and played fairly as far as I know. This round I believe they only controlled accounts in the galaxy possibly some others in their farm galaxy.

After this I never played in a galaxy with Kill again so I can’t really say anything more about the bot usage or the amount of accounts involved. However making the bot I’d imagine would take a while to do all the coding however each round it was just updated with the new stats and ship types etc and it was good to go – it was this way that Killmark was able to control 100++ accounts.

Hope that helps Biggie

ps oh yeah shame on me for cheating. couldn't really give a **** to be honest, cry about it all you want.
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Unread 29 Oct 2002, 22:04   #21
Biggie
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Thanks recon that was very helpful
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R3 :: 49:4:17 (GvE/KBz/ViruS)
R4 :: 80:14:6 (ViruS)
R5 :: 9:21:1 (ViruS/T&P) #urwins
R6 :: 2:21:10 (ViruS/T&P) #urwins
R7 :: 7:13 (ViruS) #urwins
R24 :: (Urwins) #urwins
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Unread 30 Oct 2002, 12:49   #22
Tuhan
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its not hard

Its easy to program a program to behave as a bot if you know how to do it. Just write a VB program that uses the Internet Transfer Control to put/get values to .fcg/.cgi pages, and call pages with the get method to send ships/etc. The problem I think would be the hardware required to support and run the numerous accounts/planets. What I also wonder is how in the world did Killmark get all the hundreds of emails to register the accounts with...

The furthest I tried was a scanbot in R7 with a web interface where you just insert the coords and the bot will scan, parse and return the results. Then it will never logout due to the login questions.
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Unread 30 Oct 2002, 17:04   #23
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Re: Now that PA is pretty much over

Quote:
Originally posted by Biggie
I was thinking earlier today, and am curious....

How is it that people like Killmark controlled hundreds of planets. I have been around this game for ages and am just curious, not trying to start trouble, and I am referring to passed rounds. I am just curious.

If anyone can help it would be appreciated

And I am not looking for an answer like "l33t Hax0r" this is a serious question
Its not really that difficult - I have wanted to do it many times, but I never did it becuase I knew I would feel guilty for putting so much time into something that didn't make me any $.

HTTP protocol is basically text over telnet, which is pretty simple. Cookies and stuff are just text thats sent along before the stuff that you actually see.

You can make a program send and receive text pretty easily, and you can likewise expand that program to handle multiple connections.

I've written similar programs to load & logic test web-based software I have written, but sadly I didn't keep the code when I changed jobs, else it would have been a piece of cake.

Live and learn.

-whoop
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Unread 30 Oct 2002, 18:02   #24
Nat
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At or near the end of the round i wonder if all the people who cheated to gain there high ranks etc etc will admit to it and tell ppl what they did, i hope they will, it will be good reading
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Unread 30 Oct 2002, 18:15   #25
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When refreshing the page still was possible (not the new bot-protection enabled) I once was a bad boy and went to my m8 to see what we could do.

We programmed a nice 'bot' running 24/7 on a linux system using the same ISP as I have, logging in at random times, checking if I had incomings, then sending me an SMS if that was the case.

How it worked? Goddamn easy! You simply made a script to log-in at random times. I programmed it in Perl. You set it to read the source of the page. I got a m8 to send me some incomings when I was programming the thing to see the name of the .gif file which was the enemies button when lit up. In other words - if this .gif file was available in the source, I had incomings, the bot went to an SMS page, inserted what it had to insert (my m8 programmed that part) and sent me an SMS telling me I was under attack. Also my m8 made this construction/research bot, which we also never really used.

I have to admit - it was good fun seeing it worked though (when testing it)
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Unread 31 Oct 2002, 15:17   #26
Al_zz
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Quote:
Originally posted by hook
In other words - if this .gif file was available in the source, I had incomings, the bot went to an SMS page, inserted what it had to insert (my m8 programmed that part) and sent me an SMS telling me I was under attack.
Most free SMS pages on use some kind of bot protection to prevent automatic sms'ing. You would need a payed subscription probably on an on line SMS service.

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Unread 1 Nov 2002, 01:33   #27
Heimdal
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kill


Actually its not that simple.


Killmark
Nice to hear from the person who I hate every time i have to log in :P
 
Unread 1 Nov 2002, 15:46   #28
KingGnome
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Re: Now that PA is pretty much over

Quote:
Originally posted by Biggie
How is it that people like Killmark controlled hundreds of planets. I have been around this game for ages and am just curious, not trying to start trouble, and I am referring to passed rounds. I am just curious.
As some people have pointed out, the theory of how to do it is actually very simple

HTTP 1.0 is an incredibly simple protocol (and a bot programmer would be mad to use 1.1 :P) and very open to "abuse"... you tell it most of the information - and as everyone should know, never trust the client!

There are thousands (millions?) of open proxy servers in the world
be they socks hosts (port 1080), broken or badly configured squid proxies(3128/8080) or FTP bouncing, hiding your IP address is probably the simplest part of "hiding the bots"
Which, I guess, is why spinner claims they place so little emphasis on the IP

Getting the accounts activated:
User info: Generate random info - or, more likely, take it from a large database from somewhere - where to get it isnt really an issue... if you have one, use it, if not, generate random info with diff street names, towns, postcodes, etc
Planet/ruler: simplest method is to take them from r4/5 dumps - thousands of players - unlikely that many would get recognised and flagged as suspecious
email: As someone pointed out, you can have catchall email addresses... by registering a domain for £10, you can have any address atall
Apart from that, some of the lesser used webmail providers can still be exploited by bots

Now u've got all the usernames and passwords - and the hard bit is over and done with...
Now its just a question of stopping yourself from getting caught

You could implement a bit of AI into the bot so that it will do some intelligent building - but making sure to add a random element to prevent u having clone planets, or just set up target ratios for the ships and stuff

Request pages in the right order, parse them for the rn numbers, "look around" if u feel like it, so that its not log on, construct, log off - all with random time periods

Heck, if you REALLY wanted to make it like a normal player, you'd give each planet a timezone and usually they would only log into that planet during a certain time period
but I doubt that they did that
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Unread 3 Nov 2002, 02:17   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oktober
well killmark since your cheating days are behind you and you are a clean, honest alliance HC now (alledgedly), surely if you won't be cheating again you would be able to disclose how the bots worked. the onyl reason i can think of that would prevent you from releasing how it worked and its weaknesses would be if the program was still in use on a slightly smaller scale this round limited by money, and you did not want to expose how they would be able to be caught with them still in use.

awaiting your reply.
I quit PA shortly before ViruS attack landed but anyway I've disclosed how the bots worked privately to a number of people who asked, I simply saw no reason to post publicly on the boards (infact I no longer even read them that much anymore and just respond to threads which people post to me).

The bot won't be released till after PA has finished and not untill we've managed to hide how it works, I'm not so much worried about those using it this round getting "detected" because that is impossible (and always has been), I'm more worried about people copying how the bot works and using something similar in other browser based games.

This is the reason I have offered my assistance in bot stopping to 2 other browser based games, their creators were far more receptive to my advice than PA Crew were.

Killmark
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Unread 3 Nov 2002, 02:23   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kileman
On one big attack in r6 it was thousands of planets with exactly the same fleet etc hitting 1 particular gal
I wasn't deleted r6, nor was any of my galaxy.

Killmark
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Unread 3 Nov 2002, 02:29   #31
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Re: Re: Now that PA is pretty much over

Quote:
Originally posted by KingGnome
Heck, if you REALLY wanted to make it like a normal player, you'd give each planet a timezone and usually they would only log into that planet during a certain time period
but I doubt that they did that
Esp if that was linked with country used in signup.






Killmark
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<Killmark> i need roidies!
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Unread 3 Nov 2002, 06:01   #32
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Re: Re: Re: Now that PA is pretty much over

This is one of the best threads ever. And i look forward to reading about the whole story, when the rounds all said and done
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Unread 7 Nov 2002, 04:17   #33
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if there were less ppl like Killmark in the world, games like this would be alot more enjoyable.

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Unread 7 Nov 2002, 08:48   #34
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a damn intresting thread thou :-)
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Unread 7 Nov 2002, 10:16   #35
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I'm beginning to respect Killmark a wee bit more

oh, Gl with Eldar, btw
 
Unread 7 Nov 2002, 11:59   #36
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Yay i feel so in the know after my conversation with Killmark the other week, it was very 'interesting' and a real 'eye opener' to say the least.

All ill say is i wish i could of played as well as that bot could of with one planet given the true oportunity to hehe.
 
Unread 7 Nov 2002, 16:22   #37
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How many of you can say you definitely wouldnt have used a bot of sorts to help you if you had the opportunity?

In my opinion, disregarding the one account/person rule, someone with the ability to code and use such a bot,with the time and effort that goes into it, grudgingly, deserves success.
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Unread 7 Nov 2002, 23:07   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kill


their creators were far more receptive to my advice than PA Crew were.

Killmark

wonder why ?????
 
Unread 8 Nov 2002, 00:36   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by [Cymru]
How many of you can say you definitely wouldnt have used a bot of sorts to help you if you had the opportunity?

Even if i had such a bot and it was undetectable i wouldn't use it. It would simply bore me to death to know that no attackers can get to me without my bot planets launching at me, to not be forced to log in at certain times to do construction, research or launching, to not look at the production page and wonder whether to build more pegs or rather wyverns, etc. And i guess i'm not desperate enough to win to give up fun in the game for that.
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Unread 9 Nov 2002, 21:07   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by [Cymru]
How many of you can say you definitely wouldnt have used a bot of sorts to help you if you had the opportunity?

In my opinion, disregarding the one account/person rule, someone with the ability to code and use such a bot,with the time and effort that goes into it, grudgingly, deserves success.
I wouldn't used a bot even if i had the chance. I have to admit that i were guilty in some account sharing in r4 and r5 so i'm not totally innocent, and a former galm8 of mine used a bot . In r6 and r7 i didn't even do account sharing, cause most ppl in my gal were against it

However i do admit that i respect the ppl who had the ability to code good bots. My respect for the ppl who uses bots made by other ppl aren't that big though
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Unread 9 Nov 2002, 21:41   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by [Cymru]
How many of you can say you definitely wouldnt have used a bot of sorts to help you if you had the opportunity?
i had, i didn't..

i would say that would be the case for 90% of pa
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Unread 12 Nov 2002, 08:35   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Salomo


Even if i had such a bot and it was undetectable i wouldn't use it. It would simply bore me to death to know that no attackers can get to me without my bot planets launching at me, to not be forced to log in at certain times to do construction, research or launching, to not look at the production page and wonder whether to build more pegs or rather wyverns, etc. And i guess i'm not desperate enough to win to give up fun in the game for that.
 
Unread 13 Nov 2002, 10:00   #43
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I must've missed seeing this thread. This is gonna be long but bear with me.

I helped run Kill/BeatPlanet's bot in Rounds 5 and 6, as far as I remember. I don't remember exactly who else ran it...I think Dan/Caramac was one of the other select few who had the viable proxy connections, including me due to my being at a university with access to such connections.

I recall that in Round 5 the bot had some issues as most programs do; Kill would send me updates that Beat had devised through Yahoo Messanger or via DCC/Email. I would release prior versions of the bot here but unfortunately do not retain any copies since I deleted all PA-related material some months ago.

Round 6, though, was where it was really fun. Prior to the round starting, Kill, Dan and I used some email service - I do not recall what it was, some Aussie service - to create about a thousand seperate email addresses for the bot to send the passwords etc towards. These emails were chosen from either lists filled with gibberish names or were created by us on the spot.

Secondly, we would create names for both the planets and the rulers, which were in two seperate text files. Needless to say, these things took quite some time. Personally, before going to bed each night I would spend about 20 minutes coming up with as many completely random names and the like. In this way, I was able to accumulate a good amount of data. But then when homework began to build I had to stop for the time being, religating the duties to Kill and Dan.

When you opened the program, there was a column to the left, stating the planet names, which were number 1 to infinity if needed. When you clicked on a planet, to the right there were two small boxes, one for login, and one for the password. Below the boxes was more or less a spreadsheet or something similar; this was where the planet information was listed: Race of the planet, Score of the planet, resources, blah blah blah. To the top of the bot there were multiple windows that could be clicked, for construction/research etc. If your planet was Zik, then the relevant construction/research/build information was listed, and likewise for other races. You get the picture.

Sure enough, when signups for r6 began, both Kill and Beat ran the bot, and we were all quite pleased when about 700 of the 1000 planets we had signed up for had been accepted. I distinctly remember Kill was gloating - heh. Dan and I were given rough timetables stating which planets should do what in the beginning, mostly constructing, researching, initiating and scanning. I don't think I took part in building the actual ships - I might be wrong, so don't quote me on this particular facet.

Not surprisingly, Kill's gal began to farm the random galaxies that we had created. When people in his galaxy and in our attack groups began to question this, Kill responded that "The Federation" was sacrificing a portion of itself to benefit its commanders. Or something like that. Heh.

For a while I did not participate in any sort of attacks that were planned, merely login to a few hundred planets to build ships - it was all very easy. One night, Kill told me that "The Federation" was going to do its big strike. Of the four races, each of the people using the bot - Dan, Beat, Kill and me - took control of all the planets of one particular race. I think I was controlling all the Xans. Kill told me that everything was already prepared - he sent me the necessary setup files and upon his order, I would start what was supposed to be the second or third wave of the attack.

Once I realized that this would take a long time, I decided to just let things be and I told Kill I was going away for a bit, to which he said - in typical Kill fashion - "k, later". Then I got drunk that night. I woke up the next morning and realized that I had left the bot running all night. I wondered if it would still be logging into the planets I was assigned and keep sending obselete orders. Sure enough, I was right. Going through the windows in the bot program, I discovered that the bot had tried a couple hundred times to send the same orders out, when the planets were already en-route. As you can imagine, I almost soiled my pants.

When Zeus announced the message to investigate the cheating, Dan began to freak out. He promptly left IRC and didn't return. I crossed my fingers and hoped for the best. I met Kill this summer and discovered he did the same thing, or something similar, so at least I'm not the only screw-up.

My galaxy: 13:16, got smashed due to an incluster struggle with jeffx, Concordium and Valle's gal; we were the sister gal to 33:9. 33:9 soon began to have problems of its own though, to my pleasure. As far as I know, no one in my galaxy knew I ran the bot, or had any knowledge of the bot's usage. I was not approached by Kill prior to r7 to run the bot. Instead, I decided not to join Heresy and opted for RL.

And that's all I have to say about that.
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Last edited by Tron; 13 Nov 2002 at 13:14.
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Unread 15 Feb 2003, 17:43   #44
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Why did someone delete my post?

Here goes 2nd attempt...

I only just saw this thread hence my late post. Most of what has been said above is true. If anyone's got any questions, I can prolly answer them.

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Unread 15 Feb 2003, 17:54   #45
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Why did someone delete my post?
Read your PM's.
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