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Unread 26 Apr 2013, 21:53   #1
BloodyButcher
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Alliance limits

Its about time the member limit for alliances is removed, or upped back to 100 members.
There is no reason what so ever to cap the size of alliances, you are only forcing people to quit this game.
Please dont listen to any of the people saying that lower limits will make it possibole for more alliances to be competive cus its not true.
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Unread 27 Apr 2013, 03:51   #2
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Re: Alliance limits

we dont have the memberbase for that, we would end up with 3 alliances with 100 members or something stupid and the rest would basically be farms for those allies.
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Unread 27 Apr 2013, 06:17   #3
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Re: Alliance limits

exactly, it will look like The Factory in havoc...
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Unread 27 Apr 2013, 08:32   #4
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Re: Alliance limits

3-4 of the right people divided over those 100 member alliances would make me want to join none of them.
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Unread 27 Apr 2013, 10:28   #5
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Re: Alliance limits

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Originally Posted by snoops^ View Post
we dont have the memberbase for that, we would end up with 3 alliances with 100 members or something stupid and the rest would basically be farms for those allies.
Sooo, how is it looking now? TGV/App/FI/ODDR vs ND/FAnG/CT
Its in theory the same.
And even when it was 10000 People playing this game, we had a lot of smaller alliances, and few 200 member alliances..
And as TheoDD said, only 3 alliances aint gonna happend because People dont want to play together.
Make recruiting more planets/players more valuable, and the game will be given a better shot at getting bigger.
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Unread 27 Apr 2013, 11:12   #6
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Re: Alliance limits

Rather see 60/80 limit, but each player have 2 planets on their one account. Both planets in same alliance, which gives a new tag limit at "40" players.

Time to face the fact that we aren't expanding, and might aswell make it more enjoyable for those who still is around to play. And if.. If the game gets an increasing playerbase again, just remove the secondary planet on the accounts
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Unread 27 Apr 2013, 12:19   #7
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Thumbs up Re: Alliance limits

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
Rather see 60/80 limit, but each player have 2 planets on their one account. Both planets in same alliance, which gives a new tag limit at "40" players.

Time to face the fact that we aren't expanding, and might aswell make it more enjoyable for those who still is around to play. And if.. If the game gets an increasing playerbase again, just remove the secondary planet on the accounts
If Appocco could hear you...
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Unread 27 Apr 2013, 14:35   #8
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Re: Alliance limits

2 accounts per player would be an entirely different game. Good players would choose two races which covered each others weaknesses and make themselves (virtually) invincible. (I know some do that now but at least it's still considered cheating). Poor players would be bashed even more mercilessly.

Also, we would still have the same (small) number of players. The same lack of activity - the same lack of DCs and other officers.

I don't often agree with BloodyButcher (and I admit it even less often) but my views on tag sizes are on record over many, many threads. We still have too many tags competing for the (very small) number of committed players left in this game.

In another current thread, the question has been raised as to why certain alliances are losing roids at a rapid rate. The answer is that there aren't enough active people to handle the def calls. (We used to call these people "officers" but that's gone out of fashion these days). Regardless of what we call them, their lack is a major problem which can only be solved in two ways. We're not likely to see any increase in players (let alone active ones) so reducing the number of "real" alliances is the one we're left with.
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Unread 27 Apr 2013, 15:03   #9
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Re: Alliance limits

So trying to force players into bigger alliances?

think your idea will only push this game further down in playerbase...
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Unread 27 Apr 2013, 15:22   #10
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Re: Alliance limits

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
So trying to force players into bigger alliances?

think your idea will only push this game further down in playerbase...
You are not forcing anyone into a big alliance.
Atm the PA crew are forcing players away from PA with their meaningless limits.
If you got time to play in a small tag, fine, do it.
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Unread 27 Apr 2013, 16:21   #11
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Re: Alliance limits

As the primary (successful) lobbier for the current lower ally limits I guess I should say something.

3 rounds ago the limit suggested above 80/60 was in effect and there were only two competitive alliances that could get to the 80 number and a couple that got to 60. This meant that there were only 2 competitive alliances and the politics was totally boring and predictable. The round after the limit was lowered to 60 there were 7 viable alliances all competing for #1. It was a very dynamic race for 1st and the politics of the game were much better. Even today there are 5 alliances that could (in theory) compete to win the game. This makes the game much more politically vibrant, and in my opinion a lot more interesting.

Yes there are two "blocks" right now, but within those blocks there are all kinds of competing priorities and conflicts that make the politics (painfully) interesting. Additionally there are more "HCs wannabees" than there are people to join their alliances at this point. With a higher member limit it is harder for these "wannabees" to recruit enough players to form a viable alliance. With the lower limits these guys are more successful and the game is more vibrant as a result.

Lastly I do agree with you in that if the game were bigger (say 2k players) a significantly higher limit might be justified. But given the small player base, and the lack of any real effort being done to increase the player base the smaller alliance size is justifiable and good for those who still play.
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Unread 27 Apr 2013, 17:32   #12
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Re: Alliance limits

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Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
As the primary (successful) lobbier for the current lower ally limits I guess I should say something.

3 rounds ago the limit suggested above 80/60 was in effect and there were only two competitive alliances that could get to the 80 number and a couple that got to 60. This meant that there were only 2 competitive alliances and the politics was totally boring and predictable. The round after the limit was lowered to 60 there were 7 viable alliances all competing for #1. It was a very dynamic race for 1st and the politics of the game were much better. Even today there are 5 alliances that could (in theory) compete to win the game. This makes the game much more politically vibrant, and in my opinion a lot more interesting.

Yes there are two "blocks" right now, but within those blocks there are all kinds of competing priorities and conflicts that make the politics (painfully) interesting. Additionally there are more "HCs wannabees" than there are people to join their alliances at this point. With a higher member limit it is harder for these "wannabees" to recruit enough players to form a viable alliance. With the lower limits these guys are more successful and the game is more vibrant as a result.

Lastly I do agree with you in that if the game were bigger (say 2k players) a significantly higher limit might be justified. But given the small player base, and the lack of any real effort being done to increase the player base the smaller alliance size is justifiable and good for those who still play.
There has not been any new PA winners for 12 rounds, how can u claim that "it is more competetive"?
You are far off.
We need to have a game that gives advantages to having numbers if its suppose to be a "massively multiplayer online game".
If you want to make the game more competive, why not enforce forts for BPs?
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Unread 27 Apr 2013, 17:38   #13
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Re: Alliance limits

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Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
As the primary (successful) lobbier for the current lower ally limits I guess I should say something.
How about "sorry"?
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Unread 27 Apr 2013, 20:16   #14
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Re: Alliance limits

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Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
In another current thread, the question has been raised as to why certain alliances are losing roids at a rapid rate. The answer is that there aren't enough active people to handle the def calls. (We used to call these people "officers" but that's gone out of fashion these days). Regardless of what we call them, their lack is a major problem which can only be solved in two ways. We're not likely to see any increase in players (let alone active ones) so reducing the number of "real" alliances is the one we're left with.
All alliances lose roids at a rapid rate these days. It has nothing to do with the tag limits. It has everything to do with:
1) an aging player population that refuses to wake up at night to defend against people who also refuse to wake up when they send their attack fleets, and
2) a hilariously narrowed range of PA politics that consists exclusively of 4-on-1 bashings and full-out nap fests, with a hint of "join us or we'll hit you" diplomacy thrown in.
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Unread 27 Apr 2013, 21:23   #15
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Re: Alliance limits

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
All alliances lose roids at a rapid rate these days. It has nothing to do with the tag limits. It has everything to do with:
1) an aging player population that refuses to wake up at night to defend against people who also refuse to wake up when they send their attack fleets, and
2) a hilariously narrowed range of PA politics that consists exclusively of 4-on-1 bashings and full-out nap fests, with a hint of "join us or we'll hit you" diplomacy thrown in.
Atleast with big alliances there would never be a 4-on-1 bash
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Unread 27 Apr 2013, 22:20   #16
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Re: Alliance limits

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Atleast with big alliances there would never be a 4-on-1 bash

No rather than 200 on 50 it would instead be 200 on 100... which means either:

a) If the weaker team was attacking then it would be dragged out attacks and really lack of effort from so many recalls after 4-5 days... kinda like this block on TGV is going now

b) The stronger team taking roids at such a rapid rate that the 'war' is over in 2-3 days and the weaker team can never get its roids back
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Unread 28 Apr 2013, 12:48   #17
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Re: Alliance limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
All alliances lose roids at a rapid rate these days. It has nothing to do with the tag limits. It has everything to do with:
1) an aging player population that refuses to wake up at night to defend against people who also refuse to wake up when they send their attack fleets, and
2) a hilariously narrowed range of PA politics that consists exclusively of 4-on-1 bashings and full-out nap fests, with a hint of "join us or we'll hit you" diplomacy thrown in.
I don't agree that it has nothing to do with tag limits but I do agree that your other points contribute significantly to the problem.

For example, I'm about to lose 1400 roids to 3 waves of Cr incs - despite staying awake and online until 6:30 this morning and despite CT having plenty of anti Cr defence ships (enough to have covered these waves many times over). We don't have enough committed people in CT to handle the DC role so being online is the only way to even try* to get covered. I doubt very much that CT is the only "major" alliance suffering from this problem. Fewer "major" alliances would (in theory) mean that each of them could enlist more "dedicated people" who could take it in turns to cover incs.

* I marked the "try to" here as a demonstration of the other problem which you highlighted in your point #1. Even staying awake and online is no guarantee of getting covered when the members don't get themselves online to offer ships. This, of course, is the result of that other self-destructive "feature" of PA - the PL function, which results in the "idle majority" being fast asleep when their attack fleets launch. But that's another, oft argued, topic.
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Unread 28 Apr 2013, 13:38   #18
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Re: Alliance limits

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I marked the "try to" here as a demonstration of the other problem which you highlighted in your point #1. Even staying awake and online is no guarantee of getting covered when the members don't get themselves online to offer ships.
That was exactly my point. Having a DC online is the easy part. It rarely takes more than a couple of people to arrange a night of defense. But if there's nothing to arrange...
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Unread 28 Apr 2013, 13:41   #19
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Re: Alliance limits

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
That was exactly my point. Having a DC online is the easy part. It rarely takes more than a couple of people to arrange a night of defense. But if there's nothing to arrange...
Removing PL would help that. Allready put a new thread up ob that.
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Unread 28 Apr 2013, 14:40   #20
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Re: Alliance limits

didnt pl get removed abit back for a round, it doesnt result in people waking up to launch, it results in people not launching at all...
With pl you atleast have some attacks going around giving the "inactive" alliances a chance to do some dmg when stats allow for it.
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Unread 28 Apr 2013, 14:46   #21
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Re: Alliance limits

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didnt pl get removed abit back for a round, it doesnt result in people waking up to launch, it results in people not launching at all...
With pl you atleast have some attacks going around giving the "inactive" alliances a chance to do some dmg when stats allow for it.
launch times were more spread, im not sure if the total amount of fleets launched on attack was that badly nerphed Down.
Allies can have launch time earlier.
And as ive suggested u could rather "choose" ur ETA, meaning it will show up as eta 14 tick after if u pl with ETA 15.
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Unread 28 Apr 2013, 16:22   #22
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Re: Alliance limits

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
launch times were more spread, im not sure if the total amount of fleets launched on attack was that badly nerphed Down.
Allies can have launch time earlier.
And as ive suggested u could rather "choose" ur ETA, meaning it will show up as eta 14 tick after if u pl with ETA 15.
how is that different from now? most people know when they get incs, on the tick.
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Unread 28 Apr 2013, 16:25   #23
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Re: Alliance limits

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how is that different from now? most people know when they get incs, on the tick.
Well, in the future, if this is implented, everyone will know.
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Unread 28 Apr 2013, 16:27   #24
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Re: Alliance limits

<Reply moved to Prelaunch thread.>
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Unread 28 Apr 2013, 17:52   #25
Monroe
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Re: Alliance limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
There has not been any new PA winners for 12 rounds, how can u claim that "it is more competetive"?
You are far off.
We need to have a game that gives advantages to having numbers if its suppose to be a "massively multiplayer online game".
If you want to make the game more competive, why not enforce forts for BPs?
I agree with you the game has major problems. Most of the things you are complaining about are really (in my mind) functions of the limited size and general play style of the remaining player base. The solution to the problem isn't in remove alliance limits, or even prelaunch for that matter. The solution is creating a dynamic game that people actually want to play and invite their friends to play with them. Until that is done the rest of these suggestions, while well intentioned won't actually solve anything, and may in some cases actually make the game worse.

The simple fact of the matter is everything you are suggesting has been tried in the last 5 or 6 rounds and yet the game has continued to shrink. Not because the ideas were bad, but because the game itself simply isn't attractive anymore.
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Unread 28 Apr 2013, 17:54   #26
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Re: Alliance limits

Whilst I was skimming this thread and I saw the following comment which needed correcting!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Sooo, how is it looking now? TGV/App/FI/ODDR vs ND/FAnG/CT
Its in theory the same.
ODDR have basically napped everyone so they're doing their own thing this round. So to correct you, it's TGV/App VS ND/FAnG/CT. I haven't included FI because their attack fleets are minimal.
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Unread 28 Apr 2013, 18:19   #27
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Re: Alliance limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
The simple fact of the matter is everything you are suggesting has been tried in the last 5 or 6 rounds and yet the game has continued to shrink. Not because the ideas were bad, but because the game itself simply isn't attractive anymore.
Actually, not everything he's suggesting has been tried (or even anything but I'm prepared to be proved wrong on that). However, you're bang on with your final point - none of these suggestions (on their own) will stop the inexorable decline in player numbers.
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Amnion (aka The Arcane Chas of Arcania) - Playing PA under those and other pseudonyms every genuine round since Round 2. Most recently (and insignificantly):
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Knights of the Green Shield R99 | Look Out of The Window R100 | Most of All R102
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Unread 28 Apr 2013, 21:12   #28
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Re: Alliance limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
Whilst I was skimming this thread and I saw the following comment which needed correcting!

ODDR have basically napped everyone so they're doing their own thing this round. So to correct you, it's TGV/App VS ND/FAnG/CT. I haven't included FI because their attack fleets are minimal.
Which alliances fight on which side is utterly irrelevant in this topic. Kindly cease this line of argument. This is not AD.
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Unread 29 Apr 2013, 22:52   #29
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Re: Alliance limits

In my experience most alliances aren't interested in being #1, so even those rounds with lower allies limits don't really increase the number vying for #1.

I'm not against removing alliance limits, however if there was incentive to help the new guys I think it would be considerably more beneficial in the long run. Furthermore I don't see how removing or raising them significantly now would change much in the uni. The exception being those that prefer to fort and play with a larger group of friends and are actually good at it as most allies already have limits on how many they want in a bp to help limit the inc when they aren't being p targeted.

The increase in ally limit would probably also increase the amount of whining when the ally hit "their" gal as the number of gals without your ally in it would decrease (likely a drastic decrease).

There is certainly a distinct incentive not to take on new players when you have alliance limits if you in any way view your alliance as competitive/cool/elite/whatever.


I did a quick calculation this round. There are roughly 830 planets in the universe currently and ~580 in any alliance that you could consider at least semi-active. That's nearly ~250 planets that are just out there.

I'm going to pretend for a minute that all of those are actually other people (not multis) that are playing/attempted to play and are mostly failing (or already quit) due to not caring/knowing about irc or getting dumped from any semi active gal. If you could actually get those other planets playing they could cause a significant amount of trouble.

Back in the day we used to have para/cluster alliances and feeder/jr allies and they definitely helped the new guys to learn and stay. I can tell you that if I hadn't played pa earlier and understood what was needed I wouldn't have bothered past my first round with pa in it's current state.

PA already has the ability to keep your account from round to round so it wouldn't be hard to classify people new/beginner/pro/etc and provide incentives for others to help them or handicaps for them. Having those classifications would allow us to do other things like setup bots planets that would only target and could only target those classified as new or change vac mode so they could continue to mine. Yes people could game the system to some degree, however it would be pretty easy to setup some indicators to catch the most blatant attempts.
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Unread 30 Apr 2013, 08:27   #30
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Re: Alliance limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by tokath View Post
I did a quick calculation this round. There are roughly 830 planets in the universe currently and ~580 in any alliance that you could consider at least semi-active. That's nearly ~250 planets that are just out there.
At some point I went through all rounds to see how player demographics have changed over time. Back in round 18, if we consider people in alliances of 40 or more players 'hardcore' and everyone else 'farms', there were 2.18 farms for every hardcore player. In round 23, that had dropped to 1.44 farms per hardcore player. Round 32: 1.12. Round 39: 1.00. Round 46: 0.83. Round 49: 0.65.

Graph.

I think this is actually the graph that most clearly shows PA's decline. The number of players has been going down for a decade, yes, but the reason why is that there's a much larger outflux of new players than old players. If every hardcore player attacks 1 farm a night, then in r18, a farm could go for 52 hours between each inc. Today, that number is closer to 14 hours. They get roided into the ground almost twice a day. No wonder new players don't see the point of learning to play this game.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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