Getting back at those damn XP whore things.

[Gate]

Anyone who has ever been hit by these and been unable to deliver payback should sympathise with me here...

Is it possible that for a limited time after being attacked by someone smaller than you, your planet can always hit back, regardless of bash limits?

[Rc mayhem]

er. 1 word. BASHING!! No. that would be stupid to implement. XP whoring is a strategy.

[Squidly]

Originally Posted by Gate

Anyone who has ever been hit by these and been unable to deliver payback should sympathise with me here...

Is it possible that for a limited time after being attacked by someone smaller than you, your planet can always hit back, regardless of bash limits?

<3 gate

Maybe a bash limit could be set on score, and maybe not so much on value? O_o My brain appears to be not working though, and thus I'm sure there are many things that could be said idea... So what am I missing here

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by Gate

Anyone who has ever been hit by these and been unable to deliver payback should sympathise with me here...

Is it possible that for a limited time after being attacked by someone smaller than you, your planet can always hit back, regardless of bash limits?

oh ffs can the whining about XP-wh0res stop soon? I'm going nuts of listening to it :crazyxmas:

The XP-system is fine as it is. For once PA Team have developed something that isn't flawed. You, as a valuewh0re, will catch upon the XP-wh0res in score anyway. And if you can't defend yourself against the XP-wh0res and their measly fleets, then tough luck, too bad for you.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Nadar

The XP-system is fine as it is. For once PA Team have developed something that isn't flawed. You, as a valuewh0re, will catch upon the XP-wh0res in score anyway. And if you can't defend yourself against the XP-wh0res and their measly fleets, then tough luck, too bad for you.

Uh. I hate to poke a hole in your ad hominem there sir, but Gate is DLR...

[Fyodor]

I play another game that has a "revenge function" It essentially gives you 24 hours to strike back at someone who attacks you regardless of the score. Might be a worthwhile feature in PA.

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by Banned

Uh. I hate to poke a hole in your ad hominem there sir, but Gate is DLR...

uhm.. my post was directed to everyone who reads it, not only Gate.

[Rc mayhem]

Originally Posted by Fyodor

I play another game that has a "revenge function" It essentially gives you 24 hours to strike back at someone who attacks you regardless of the score. Might be a worthwhile feature in PA.

Isnt that why we have covert ops and Structure killers? They have no purpose other than to piss off

[Squidly]

Originally Posted by Rc mayhem

Isnt that why we have covert ops and Structure killers? They have no purpose other than to piss off

Yeah... but for an xp wh0re type planet... it's way too easy to build up 30% sec centers, change your engineering prio to eliminate any risk of cov-ops....

And structure killers are no good to use against said xpWh0re when you can't attack them

[Gate]

There's nothing wrong with XP whoring as a strategy. I did it round 13, and I'm kind of doing it now (not as severely as most people, I'm not stunting my growth with suicides or donations to fund, but I'm hardly whoring value), but it seems unfair that one person can attack another person and not expect retaliation.

If someone attacks someone larger than them, I don't see how it is bashing to be retaliated against by your target; just because you choose to XP whore doesn't mean you should be protected against people who you attack. After all, retaliation is also a valid tactic, who's to say that the strategy of Xp whoring should outweigh that?

Mainly, this was aimed at people like evil_n00b, and the frigate whores of last round and isn't quite as applicable this round without uber xan frigates or subversion, but nontheless, I think it's only fair. IMO, ofc.

[Monroe]

One comment: The only people who seem to complain about XP are big planets, I never hear the small guys complaining about XP.

XP is a great check on the runaway advantage larger planets get later in the game. In the long run (ie over the whole round) value will generally win out over XP, so the large planets are not penalized, but in the mean time smaller value planets still have a chance to do decently well. My two cents.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Monroe

One comment: The only people who seem to complain about XP are big planets, I never hear the small guys complaining about XP.

XP is a great check on the runaway advantage larger planets get later in the game. In the long run (ie over the whole round) value will generally win out over XP, so the large planets are not penalized, but in the mean time smaller value planets still have a chance to do decently well. My two cents.

I agree with you, but this isn't a discussion about the merits of XP. It's allowing people who are hit by such planets to have a chance of striking back. Even with covops you have a chance of striking back as you can covop them back, but if someone chooses to hit your planet, why should you be prevented from hitting them back?

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Monroe

One comment: The only people who seem to complain about XP are big planets, I never hear the small guys complaining about XP.

XP is a great check on the runaway advantage larger planets get later in the game. In the long run (ie over the whole round) value will generally win out over XP, so the large planets are not penalized, but in the mean time smaller value planets still have a chance to do decently well. My two cents.

I dont see coords tags behind peoples nicks inhere.

I dont belive that many new people will complain about xp because they simply dont know what it is and how to calculate it.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Gate

I agree with you, but this isn't a discussion about the merits of XP. It's allowing people who are hit by such planets to have a chance of striking back. Even with covops you have a chance of striking back as you can covop them back, but if someone chooses to hit your planet, why should you be prevented from hitting them back?

Tbh, i dont think its a good idea being able to attack below your bash limit even in the case of retaliation. Mainly because there are so many other courses available to you - namely, informing friends and/or alliancemates who are small enough to attack said planet to attack them (ie retal by proxy), or use Covert Ops (whether it works or not it is still retal), or if you are mean you can news scan them every now and again and defend their targets for the next week etc. Quite frankly, the main reason why XP wh0ring is viable is that they typically cant be retalled by their target, otherwise XP wh0res would always loose their fleet in a fleetcatching incident at their home base which means they arent picking up roids at the same time etc.

So, because allowing retal makes XP wh0ring just *that* much harder (imo it is hard enough as it is) and the fact that there are other options available to you means that i dont think it would be a good idea to permit retal regardless of value.

Edit: Plus, in the long run you'll prolly outgrow the XP wh0res anyway so at best you trying to retal them is only a distraction which is not benficial to you (and if you just take their roids, XP wh0res tend not to care as all it does is reduce their value further ).

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

namely, informing friends and/or alliancemates who are small enough to attack said planet to attack them (ie retal by proxy),

What about the newer, allianceless guy who gets up to about 500k value and is constantly hit by 180k value XP whores who know the game, know he won't get def & don't have the required friends.

Edit: Plus, in the long run you'll prolly outgrow the XP wh0res anyway so at best you trying to retal them is only a distraction which is not benficial to you (and if you just take their roids, XP wh0res tend not to care as all it does is reduce their value further ).

They don't care, that's all fine and dandy, but repeated hitting by an XP whore without teh chance to fleetcatch, or to get some of your roids back (for a value whore) is still viable IMO.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Quite frankly, the main reason why XP wh0ring is viable is that they typically cant be retalled by their target, otherwise XP wh0res would always loose their fleet in a fleetcatching incident at their home base which means they arent picking up roids at the same time etc.

How often will someone waste a fleetslot to catch an XP whore when the roids will have crap XP? This will really only be used by people who consistently get hit by the same planet, which, IMO, is asking for it. Hopefully it won't be much of an issue with this round's stats, but constantly getting hit by huge fleets of frigates last round was frustrating at best, particuarly when you know that eXilition recruit good players, especially if those players are T100 and immune to being hit back.

I still think it's a quite minor change and feel it wouldn't be damaging. But it looks like I'm outvoted.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Gate

What about the newer, allianceless guy who gets up to about 500k value and is constantly hit by 180k value XP whores who know the game, know he won't get def & don't have the required friends.

There is always your galaxy to ask if you are in that situation - "Hey this guy is annoying me; who wants to raid him?" etc. Or if he is always being hit by a certain type of XP wh0re (ie, sending FR), then perhaps it would be worthwhile building more anti-FR. Or, like most people, he can go out and attack someone else at 1.5 mil or whatever and give it right back to them. The thing about XP wh0ring is that their fleet is by definition small, so it doesnt take much to stop them - and thus having a slush fund in order to build out of those situations might be handy.

They don't care, that's all fine and dandy, but repeated hitting by an XP whore without teh chance to fleetcatch, or to get some of your roids back (for a value whore) is still viable IMO.

You do have the chance to fleetcatch, by proxy. Or, you can just get a tiny little bit of defence (whether from in-gal Ziks or alliancemates). Or you can maintain a slush fund. Or you can Covert Op them to death. Or Or Or OR OR etc. Its not the end of the round if you get hit by an XP wh0re - sure, you loose roids, but your fleet is left virtually intact which is obviously *way* more important. Similarly, if you adjust the system such that massive players (by value) are able to fleetcatch their own attackers regardless of value, all that is going to happen is that anyone who XP wh0res will fail miserably as 1) they loose the roids very quickly anyway and 2) their fleet dies. The saying "do onto others as you would have done unto you" springs to mind - why permit the big player to kill the XP wh0res fleet, when the XP wh0re did no lasting damage to your fleet?

How often will someone waste a fleetslot to catch an XP whore when the roids will have crap XP?

Well, if the target is going for value, then XP is a secondary consideration to cheap roids. Also, there is the vengeance factor. Thus i would imagine it would happen quite often.

This will really only be used by people who consistently get hit by the same planet, which, IMO, is asking for it.

You think so? I think it would just be used by players to collect cheap roids every now and again.

Hopefully it won't be much of an issue with this round's stats, but constantly getting hit by huge fleets of frigates last round was frustrating at best, particuarly when you know that eXilition recruit good players, especially if those players are T100 and immune to being hit back.

I am unsure as to what you are saying here. If they have "massive" Frigate fleets, how then are they XP wh0ring - unless your fleet was superior at least in terms of value. Thus, you would have the resources in order to build more anti FR, or you could get defence to counter the relatively weak FR attack, or you could organise retals on them or their alliancemates, or so on.

I dont think a vengeance attack option is necessary in order to strike back at XP wh0res - they have it tough enough already without having to stand up to some larger player's vengeace too.

[furball]

If you're getting hit by an XP whore then you've got a crappy fleet composition or you're leaving intentional holes in your fleet. I do the latter. Since I do so (e.g. I have no anti-CR), I have to rely on my alliance and my galaxy for anti-CR defence. Someone could send 30 hornets at me and cap, but that's my problem - and what's the point in hitting him back? Go hit someone bigger than yourself for more roids and more XP.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by furball

If you're getting hit by an XP whore then you've got a crappy fleet composition or you're leaving intentional holes in your fleet.

Last round I had 220k vsh, this round I currently have 60 dragons, and got/get hit by XP whoring frigates and BS respectively. There's not much else I can do

[Bromcrysal]

See? This is why you need to build your noob base in your galaxy! They don't know much about xp gains or score/value ratios, they see the universe as good guys and badguys. Every time I get attacked, I have 2 or 3 galaxy mates saying "Hey, this guy's attacking you... want us to get him?" All I have to do is organize and scan for them, and the xp whore is fleecaught like a fool! I don't even have to go on alliance channels and ask. And all the noobs ask is a little defence now and then... just a pat on the head, and a "good job, Joe Noob!" Brings a tear to my eye... *sniff*

[Shyne]

Originally Posted by Monroe

One comment: The only people who seem to complain about XP are big planets, I never hear the small guys complaining about XP.

XP is a great check on the runaway advantage larger planets get later in the game. In the long run (ie over the whole round) value will generally win out over XP, so the large planets are not penalized, but in the mean time smaller value planets still have a chance to do decently well. My two cents.

I'm small and I dislike the xp system, I prefer the notion of value being important.

XP 'whoring' is like being happy that you scored 10 goals against Chelsea, while yourself as Portsmouth let in 30.

[suave]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

or if you are mean you can news scan them every now and again and defend their targets for the next week etc.

hardly - newsscans are 4 ticks late and I can't see a ships fast enough to catch up those 4 ticks out of ally

[Chika]

I have noticed that xp whores are quite dumb, and they don't planet scan. Save a bit of resources. Let the xp whore get happy when he is eta 4 no defence. Prod to pop out when he lands. Bam! Round over. One guy landed on me and lost 323 cr for 29 roids. His entire CR fleet. he's done.

[Europatriot]

so, we implement this revenge option, obviously a difference between an xp whore or just a bold attack can not be made, so.. you always get the chance to fight back...
what happens, some small planet is able to roid a big planet because of good strategy, and as a reward, he gets smashed to bits by the obviously more powerfull fleet.
doubt he'll try that again....

I always thought the XP thingy was intruduced to motivate small planets to have a go at the big guys (so in my mind, this revenge thingy, and the XP thingy can not/ should not exist together)


It seems to me that the people who have a problem with XP-whoring all see the solution in fighting the symptoms, instead of the cause... If you use a quick-fix for the situation , like the revenge option or basing the bash limit on score (+value) , you are either making the game less fun, or just pushing the problem inches ahead of yourself.

Most importantly, I don't believe there is a problem.... can't you really fight a small xp-whores fleet? And do you really think that if you were able to attack an xp-whore below your regular bash limit, it would be worth it? You should be able to think of something better to do with that fleet!

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Nadar

oh ffs can the whining about XP-wh0res stop soon? I'm going nuts of listening to it :crazyxmas:

The XP-system is fine as it is. For once PA Team have developed something that isn't flawed. You, as a valuewh0re, will catch upon the XP-wh0res in score anyway. And if you can't defend yourself against the XP-wh0res and their measly fleets, then tough luck, too bad for you.

I am slowly starting to disagree with you. Seems like the valuewhores cant find good targets to attack therefore getting low xp and low score...

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by Kargool

I am slowly starting to disagree with you. Seems like the valuewhores cant find good targets to attack therefore getting low xp and low score...

Why would valuewh0res care about XP? You've played for what.. 4 rounds now? You should have learned by now that value and XP will even out during the later part of round.

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Nadar

Why would valuewh0res care about XP? You've played for what.. 4 rounds now? You should have learned by now that value and XP will even out during the later part of round.

The number of xpwhores around makes it abit different imho.

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by Kargool

The number of xpwhores around makes it abit different imho.

No flying pigs way. There's lots of value-targets to hit for the valuewh0res.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Kargool

The number of xpwhores around makes it abit different imho.

In a surprising turn of events if more people use tactic A than tactic B more top players will have used tactic A than tactic B to get there, if tactics A and B are equally valid.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Kargool

I am slowly starting to disagree with you. Seems like the valuewhores cant find good targets to attack therefore getting low xp and low score...

I think it might depend on where those "high value" planets are looking for targets. If they are just sifting through the top 100 lists for phat planets to raid, then unsurprisingly there will be fewer viable targets if the proportion of XP wh0res increase. However, by sifting through top 100 by Value is another matter entirely, as there wont (shouldnt) be an XP wh0re in sight. Or, you should be looking to your BC who might need to be a little more imaginative or creative and focus on high value targets/galaxies instead of high scoring ones.

I seriously doubt that there is a lack of targets in the universe at this stage - perhaps less free targets as people have more fleets with improved composition now that more technology is available, but still.

[Zeke]

-fleetcatch/defence