Planetarion Forums

Vermillion · 21 May 2003, 14:55

****************** SPOILERS BELOW **********************
******DO NOT READ UNLESS YOU HAVE SEEN THE EPISDODE, OR DO NOT CARE*****

So I did not see that coming. They certainly thinned the cast a little bit, and Sunnydale no longer exists, but despite the apocalyptic nature of the episode, it still did not strike me as a terribly good series finale. Excellent SEASON finale, but with no effort at all at denouement (and the fact that they changed the nature of the population of the planet) it left me feeling a touch empty.

I don't like it when series end in such a manner, with no idea of what comes next, the fans have built up a great deal of love for a set of characters, and one tends to feel a bit hung out to dry. One would assume some of these issues will come up in 'Angel' in the upcoming season, but even so…

I am a source of some amusement to my colleagues and peers because I watch this show, but it and West Wing contains what I think is the most intelligent writing on TV. (And the tragically cancelled 'Firefly') I was disappointed that the Series finale left us hanging; even the last line of the series asks the same question I do. Perhaps Wheadon did this intentionally in order to leave himself open for spinoff or the like.

God knows I label myself a geek for even knowing this, but I was most impressed with the model they used for the finale of Star Trek DS9. A two hour show involved the wrapup of the season plot in the first hour, then an hour of denouement and tying up loose ends. That was far more satisfying than seeing the cast standing in the desert on the edge of a massive crater wondering what the hell they do now.

And I am a little put-out at how they killed Spike.

Radical Edward · 21 May 2003, 14:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Vermillion
And I am a little put-out at how they killed Spike.

It was Vicious.

now there was a touching moment.

MrL_JaKiri · 21 May 2003, 14:59

The final series of Buffy started well, then started to deteriorate around ep7 or 8 until it got to the stage where 1/2 the dialogue was written by Joss Whedon's metally deficient Iguana.

And Buffy was irritating beyond belief.

MrL_JaKiri · 21 May 2003, 15:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Radical Edward
It was Vicious.

now there was a touching moment.

Not that Spike.

Although like many animé, Bebop took the 'Character Developement = Plot Developement' route; I'd have liked to have more about the syndicate than just 4 episodes, or thereabouts (Jupiter Jazz 1,2, Real Folk Blues 1,2)

Radical Edward · 21 May 2003, 15:02

likewise, to say it was how they ended the series, you would have thought they would put a bit more effort into it. It is a pretty common thing though, they did it with Full Metal Panic too. there are lots of hints in CB to their former lives, but none of them are really dealt with, still I like the mystery.

MrL_JaKiri · 21 May 2003, 15:04

There were an enormous amount of unanswered questions; the one that springs first to mind is about Ein, and of course that transient gay alien he goes off with.

Radical Edward · 21 May 2003, 15:07

It was a series with Soul.

MrL_JaKiri · 21 May 2003, 15:09

And halucinogenic mushrooms.

Radical Edward · 21 May 2003, 15:11

Quote:

Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
And halucinogenic mushrooms.

and lobsters in the fridge

MrL_JaKiri · 21 May 2003, 15:17

And on that note...

HURRY MICHAEL-DUCK!

THAT'S MCINTYRE

MrL_JaKiri · 21 May 2003, 15:41

btw, Charisma Carpenter is not in Angel s5, but James Marsters is.

Kyoto · 21 May 2003, 16:13

Does she giggle giggle 'DO IT?' with the half rotten corpse of her dead half brother who was also the spawn of hector and hercules or something stupid like that?

Ok so I've never watched it...

Leshy · 21 May 2003, 16:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Vermillion
it still did not strike me as a terribly good series finale.

Well, the problem was mostly that it was too rushed, several scenes could've been so much more if more time was available for them. Joss should've definitely taken the two final episodes to wrap it up, rather than the one hour.

As for the storyline, however, it's an excellent ending. I was very curious as to how it would end: Buffy being dead would be a cliché, Buffy losing her powers would suck, Buffy remaining the Slayer wouldn't mean any closure at all. So the solution as found was pretty much genius

As for an open ending, I kind of like it. Sunnydale is gone, the Hellmouth is closed. Evil may not be dead, but it's no longer Buffy's sole responsibility to deal with it. Everyone can basically go anywhere from this point and live their lives as they want to. As for Buffy, her conversation with Angel strongly suggested that they would end up together somewhere in the future.

Quote:

And I am a little put-out at how they killed Spike.

I'm not. Not sure if you've seen Angel season 1, but the prophecy of the Vampire with a Soul who will be a major player in the Apocalypse and who will be granted life in the end as a reward, may very well point at Spike, rather than at Angel, as everyone assumed so far.

Seeing as how he was the one that ultimately destroyed the Hellmouth, basically ending the Apocalypse, and will somehow come back to life to star in Angel S5, and all

Add · 21 May 2003, 17:24

Spike is signed to Angel season 5, so he is far from dead. As a die hard buffy fan (i guarentee you, that not one person you know knows more about the show than i do), i was extremely dissapointed in the way they ended the show. IMO it should have been about buffy. There were far too many throw-away charaters that were given too much of the limited screen time (eg rona/kennedy/dawn/wood/andrew/faith [to an extent]).

The way i felt, it was as though this episode was written by someone who never watched buffy, as i watched it i did not recognise it as the show i have been watching for the last 7 years. There was definatly no love shown for the characters or the essence of what made buffy buffy. It was largly like, waiting for a big bang, but when the trigger is pulled you just get a flag on a stick that says bang.

Joss seems to have taken the fact that buffy was about feminism too far, and believed that's all the show was about and all the fans cared about, he was wrong, i honestly didn't see that coming, but i believe that that should not have happened, the point of the show is that she is the one, the only, i can see the thinking behind that - that now she isn't so there's no point for a show - but someone who really knows the show well would realise it's not even close to that simple.

I would say, that this episode was Joss' way of saying "good riddance", not "goodbye".

MrL_JaKiri · 21 May 2003, 17:51

Blame Marti Noxon for the rape/feminism stuff.

wakey · 21 May 2003, 18:03

Having just finsished watching it I have to say I agree. It seemed to lack closure for the central characters (especially buffy). While theres a possability that such things might get sorted in Angel or any other spinoff with the likes of SMG wanting to break away completly from the show they are likly to be wraped up with a few throw away lines in Angel. As others have said it would ahve been better being a feature length episode allowing it to be more detailed and perhaps deal more with the aftermath.

oh and MrL_JaKiri Charisma Carpenter is likly to appear in Season 5 of Angel. Shes just not going to be a reoccuring charachter

Add · 21 May 2003, 20:22

Quote:

Originally posted by wakey
Having just finsished watching it I have to say I agree. It seemed to lack closure for the central characters (especially buffy). While theres a possability that such things might get sorted in Angel or any other spinoff with the likes of SMG wanting to break away completly from the show they are likly to be wraped up with a few throw away lines in Angel. As others have said it would ahve been better being a feature length episode allowing it to be more detailed and perhaps deal more with the aftermath.

oh and MrL_JaKiri Charisma Carpenter is likly to appear in Season 5 of Angel. Shes just not going to be a reoccuring charachter

actually you're wrong. she will appear in at most 4 out of 22 (so i've been told). Also, connor will appear in about the same (and no more), so, YAY!

huh · 21 May 2003, 21:28

Gee thanks. I've waiting to see this for ages and you've gone and spoilt it. Hope you feel clever.

Vermillion · 21 May 2003, 21:37

Quote:

Originally posted by huh
Gee thanks. I've waiting to see this for ages and you've gone and spoilt it. Hope you feel clever.

If you somehow failed to notice the large, bolded SPOILERS warning both in the thread title and the top line of the first post, then perhaps you are not one to be lecturing others on cleverness.

Phang · 21 May 2003, 21:38

Quote:

Originally posted by huh
Gee thanks. I've waiting to see this for ages and you've gone and spoilt it. Hope you feel clever.

how ****ing stupid ARE you?

huh · 21 May 2003, 21:42

Nope, not one word of warning.

JonnyBGood · 21 May 2003, 21:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Vermillion
If you somehow failed to notice the large, bolded SPOILERS warning both in the thread title and the top line of the first post, then perhaps you are not one to be lecturing others on cleverness.

This is Sub. Sub trolls things that live under bridges and eat children I kid you not.

21 May 2003, 21:51

Quote:

Originally posted by JonnyBGood
This is Sub. Sub trolls things that live under bridges and eat children I kid you not.

Why would anyone troll in such a way that they make themselves look like a total retard? Some kind of self-loathing troll?

JonnyBGood · 21 May 2003, 21:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Gaunt
Why would anyone troll in such a way that they make themselves look like a total retard? Some kind of self-loathing troll?

Ah, the TPE method of trolling. Look and act like a retard and when someone accuses you of being one you can "lol" in their face thanks to your wit and intelligence*.

*It's similar to cutting your balls if you worry about not getting any.

Eddie · 21 May 2003, 21:55

Quote:

Originally posted by wakey
Having just finsished watching it I have to say I agree. It seemed to lack closure for the central characters (especially buffy). While theres a possability that such things might get sorted in Angel or any other spinoff with the likes of SMG wanting to break away completly from the show they are likly to be wraped up with a few throw away lines in Angel. As others have said it would ahve been better being a feature length episode allowing it to be more detailed and perhaps deal more with the aftermath.

In my view it did about all it could do for the finale. It was always going to be impossible to the hopes of the fans at the end, so in a way it was nice that they didn't bother trying. I'll agree with a comment earlier up the thread though that it felt more like a season finale than the overall finale. I think the whole time the universe is still open (albeit series, comics, anything else), complete closure should never be presented.

Regarding the characters, I think it did it's job perfectly.
Buffy finally gets to be free of "her curse" and can finally be a normal girl.
Willow got past her fear of the dark magic, achieving the opposite complete "white magic".
Anya reached her natural conclusion after her fears of mortality in earlier years.
Spike finally proved his worth.
Andrew got his redemption.
Angel wrapped up his story with Buffy but still left it open enough for future crossovers.
Faith looked like she might actually find a normal life.
It only really felt like Xander and Giles didn't get their closure, which I guess is appropriate as they never had their place through most of the series.

Dante Hicks · 21 May 2003, 22:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Add
There were far too many throw-away charaters that were given too much of the limited screen time (eg rona/kennedy/dawn/wood/andrew/faith [to an extent]).

I just watched this episode, and I'd tend to agree with this comment.

For me, Buffy declined somewhat when the "core" characters (Buffy, Giles, Xander & Willow) broke down. Giles left and Xander became more and more redundant as time went on. Willow lost her way a little after Series 5 and her post Tara romance with Kennedy seemed tacked on.

For me, the heart of the series will always lie in the first three series (if nothing else, the horrors of school). Series 5 remains the best.

As for this episode, it made the best of a bad situation. Series 7 had the potential to recover from the excesses of 6, and nearly it pulled it off. It didn't however have the direction or pace of 5 nor the drama of 2. They ruined Giles as a character and a lot of the character lost their point (why is Anya still around?). The hugely inflated cast lumbered into the final battle, and the showdown, while good on paper, seemed limp. I don't care about banter between Wood and Faith - I only met him a few episodes ago, ffs. Show me the Scooby Gang, I've been watching them for the last 7 years or so...

So yes : Should have been longer, concentrated on the core, and this definitely seemed like a season finale, not the end.

Leshy · 22 May 2003, 00:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Add
i did not recognise it as the show i have been watching for the last 7 years. There was definatly no love shown for the characters or the essence of what made buffy buffy.

Actually, the hall scene with Buffy, Giles, Willow and Xander was the closing moment of the episode for me, and was definitely the best part.

wakey · 22 May 2003, 09:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Add
actually you're wrong. she will appear in at most 4 out of 22 (so i've been told). Also, connor will appear in about the same (and no more), so, YAY!

having just re read my post I dont know why I wrote reoccuring and not regular

MrL_JaKiri · 22 May 2003, 14:14

S5 was dire.

S3 was the best.

Dante Hicks · 22 May 2003, 14:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Leshy
Actually, the hall scene with Buffy, Giles, Willow and Xander was the closing moment of the episode for me, and was definitely the best part.

Yes.

Quote:

Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
S5 was dire.

S3 was the best.

S5 dire? Are you mad? If nothing else : "The Body" & "The Gift" were two brilliant episodes.

But mainly Spike was turned from the joke he was in S4 to the hero he is at the end of the series. His redemption was the core of S5, and was inspired.

MrL_JaKiri · 22 May 2003, 14:32

Two good episodes do not make a series of 22, or however many it was.

And I liked comedy Spike.

ChubbyChecker · 23 May 2003, 11:16

I agree that they should have concentrated more on the core cast. I honestly didn't care if Wood lived or died, yet for some reason Joss seemed to think we did.

I really expected Buffy to die. All the way through the series it's been shown that Buffy's destiny is to die and let somebody else have a go, a brief and bloody go. Though I suppose the whole going against destiny was cool too. Plus I suppose I can understand that they wanted her to live so that she could occassionally turn up in an Angel episode.

Overall I was dissapointed, though I suppose we were always going to be.

Leshy · 23 May 2003, 11:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Yes.S5 dire? Are you mad? If nothing else : "The Body" & "The Gift" were two brilliant episodes.

'The Body' may very well be the best Buffy episode ever. However, two excellent episodes can't carry a whole season. And in all fairness, season 5 was pretty dire, though not as bad as season 4.

Fortunately things picked up with season 6 and 7 again, although they never managed to outdo the first three seasons, especially 2.

Radical Edward · 23 May 2003, 11:29

Quote:

Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
And I liked comedy Spike.

particularly when he tells the girl on the counter to put the donut on their tab... heh, that was a cool funny comment.

MrL_JaKiri · 23 May 2003, 13:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Radical Edward
particularly when he tells the girl on the counter to put the donut on their tab... heh, that was a cool funny comment.

'To deceive your enemy, you must first deceive your ally.'
'HOW DOES DECEIVING ME HELP?'

Radical Edward · 23 May 2003, 13:52

Quote:

Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
'To deceive your enemy, you must first deceive your ally.'
'HOW DOES DECEIVING ME HELP?'

and most of all, you took too long taking a sh*t

Add · 23 May 2003, 15:25

Quote:

Originally posted by wakey
having just re read my post I dont know why I wrote reoccuring and not regular

lilah is a reoccuring character. fred is a regular character. cordilia will have a few cameo's. nothing more.

Add · 23 May 2003, 15:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Leshy
'The Body' may very well be the best Buffy episode ever. However, two excellent episodes can't carry a whole season. And in all fairness, season 5 was pretty dire, though not as bad as season 4.

Fortunately things picked up with season 6 and 7 again, although they never managed to outdo the first three seasons, especially 2.

i liked the body only because i can't stand buffy's mom and never have been able to. season 5 was poor because dawn should never have been written in. that and writing out giles were the two biggest mistakes in buffy history.

Freakozoid · 23 May 2003, 15:33

what series is on BBC atm ?

its a bit crap.