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Unread 18 Dec 2009, 20:13   #1
t3k
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Congrats Apprime

Kudos on your win, etc. I'd make the post later but I'm going out before the game ends, so figured I'd make this post before I had to get ready.

First things first: While you'll already know this yourselves because you're arrogant bastards lol, I'd just like to say you played a very good round and even the most venomous of haters would have to agree on this. Well done, chaps.

This round started off just like any other; with a 2nd tier alliance looking strong and Ascprime on low membercounts sitting rather subtly among the lower T10. As always, the leading tier 2 alliance threw away their lead and Asc/App came out of their shell and got their game faces on.

I don't think politics were particularly interesting this round (although the rivalry at times between the two blocks was enjoyable). DLR/Euph were hitting Apprime without much luck and as usual carDi was being cocky about it. That's carDi for you though I guess! Anyway, carDi suggested that if we wanted to land on Apprime, we'd have to bring more alliances. Which we did. Which carDi didn't like.

Subh and Apprime had an avoidance agreement of some kind in place, but Subh were having similar bad luck fighting off Ascendancy (with NewDawn? I'm unsure.). As such, Subh agreed to attack Apprime with DLR/Euph on the condition that DLR/Euph returned the favour and helped them hit Asc shortly after. This seemed all well and good in theory, but it was this agreement that forced the Asc/App block. I'm not sure how Vision got involved on their side, I'd need somebody else to fill that part in.

At the end of the day with 6 alliances (CT/DLR/Euph/Subh/ODDR/ND) teaming up to alternatingly hit Asc/App - there was only ever going to be one response to this. Personally, I don't think that there was any one particularly poor decision on either side of the block... it was this "reactive politics" that killed the round.

For Apprime to come back in to the round and win it with such dominance after the brow-beating they took surely deserves some praise? Don't get me wrong, I haven't fallen in love with carDi or anything but credit where credit's due at least.

A large contributing factor to Apprime's success is their race structure. Knowing how many people would be playing as xan they made a good call in picking the one race that absolutely wtfpwns xan. DLR I know especially struggled with tycoon incoming (though you managed to cover me guys, thanks for that!) and pillagers were ace anti-xan fi def. With xan only teamups getting pwned by single phantom fleets (Hi JungleMuffin!) and xan/cath-co/zik-co teamups leaving xans wtfpwned first in any defense - it made teaming up on bigger targets (or landing on smaller targets with def) difficult.

Just want to say thanks for a good round Ascendancy, Vision and Apprime. And thanks to DLR and Euph for being awesome to work with. And thanks to Subh and NewDawn especially for your help in DCing this round, your OOT def fleets were awesome! Shame our block couldn't stick to the 3-per-week, but that was probably more through negligence than intention to break rules.

GG all, see you next round.
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Unread 18 Dec 2009, 20:31   #2
Knight Theamion
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Re: Congrats Apprime

It was a shit round.
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Unread 18 Dec 2009, 21:00   #3
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
I'm not sure how Vision got involved on their side, I'd need somebody else to fill that part in.
VsN, Subh and App had a nap, Subh left and VsN and App kept the nap. Some(5-6 members) VsN members joined App-attacks(raids/fc's/counters) aswell during this time i think. App and Asc realised thay had an enemyblock on their hands and napped eachother, VsN kept doing their thing. Suddenly VsN had incs from 7 allies within a handfull of ticks and shortly after VsN felt preassured to nap Asc aswell.

Funny thing is that i believe VsN original plan was to hit asc at some point, but because of the incs from those 7 allies they felt forced to join asc's side. Makes me giggle at least.
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Unread 18 Dec 2009, 21:02   #4
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Re: Congrats Apprime

ye, we napped asc on our secound night of inc from the block
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Unread 18 Dec 2009, 21:16   #5
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Re: Congrats Apprime

The best part of this round was seeing huge pure xan fi teamups, don't get much more retarded than that.
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Unread 18 Dec 2009, 21:52   #6
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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The best part of this round was seeing huge pure xan fi teamups, don't get much more retarded than that.

Best part was defending them with phants. Feud xans always won.
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Unread 18 Dec 2009, 22:41   #7
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Re: Congrats Apprime

**** you wishmaster
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Unread 18 Dec 2009, 22:49   #8
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Shipjumper!
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Unread 18 Dec 2009, 23:37   #9
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Re: Congrats Apprime

I bet they'll win next round too. Better start forming a block to stop them, boys, before it's too late!
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Unread 18 Dec 2009, 23:43   #10
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Re: Congrats Apprime

ye, pt0 is two weeks too late, hurry!
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 00:36   #11
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Re: Congrats Apprime

I even pl deffed VisioN!
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 00:36   #12
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Quote:
Originally Posted by hude View Post
**** you wishmaster
:d
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 00:37   #13
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Best part of the round was clearly having the whole of dlr attack you in 4 ticks.
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 00:40   #14
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alki View Post
Best part of the round was clearly having the whole of dlr attack you in 4 ticks.
We even covered a wave! But then told you we miscalced and pulled all def!
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 00:46   #15
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Indeed, the lack of faith was disturbing
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 00:46   #16
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
This round started off just like any other; with a 2nd tier alliance looking strong and Asc on low membercounts sitting rather subtly among the lower T10.
If only they'd increased the memberlimit, I wouldn't have kicked 70 members to reduce our ludicrous amount of planets every round.
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 01:38   #17
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Congrats to app, well deserved.
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 01:45   #18
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Re: Congrats Apprime

**** sake, asc can't do shit without me. I idle for one round and they all start running around like headless chickens with Isilx in front.
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 01:52   #19
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Re: Congrats Apprime

I would have to say congrats to apprime from recovering from a 5 ally raping to go on to win the round.

btw nice one wish m8 for winning a round.
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 01:55   #20
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Quote:
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I even pl deffed VisioN!
that was fking stupid
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 02:00   #21
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Quote:
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that was fking stupid
That was doing a favour back to I think Dimentus.
VisioN saved an FR wave on me.
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 10:26   #22
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Grats to Apprime from me aswell. Strong win given the opposing numbers.
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 12:52   #23
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Congrats for the tactical victory. Beating Asc without fighting them is just briliant.
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 13:06   #24
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Congratulations to Apprime for keeping going. Quality outfits keep going in the face of mass bashings, so there's little doubt their victory is deserved in that aspect.

Ascendancy's biggest crime was effectively eliminating metagame by just staying idly with Apprime. This allowed SCEND to arbitrarily decide the round, which was extremely costly in the long term. Apprime were always Ascendancy's biggest challengers and they neglected that in favour of short term containment. How you end the round is always more important. Metagame has regularly been what has set us apart from the rest and those still playing in Ascendancy need to address that. Apprime are a good alliance and if they are given a cheap (by Ascendancy standards) road to victory, they will take it.
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 13:28   #25
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Never have I been so glad to not play a round as this one. That said I'm sure I'd have made it miles better but hey sometimes making silk purses out of sows' ears just isn't that interesting. Congratulations indeed though.
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 14:08   #26
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Ascendancy's biggest crime was effectively eliminating metagame by just staying idly with Apprime. This allowed SCEND to arbitrarily decide the round, which was extremely costly in the long term. Apprime were always Ascendancy's biggest challengers and they neglected that in favour of short term containment. How you end the round is always more important. Metagame has regularly been what has set us apart from the rest and those still playing in Ascendancy need to address that. Apprime are a good alliance and if they are given a cheap (by Ascendancy standards) road to victory, they will take it.
I dont think we had much choice in the metagame tbh. We were a very weak alliance this round by the standards of the previous rounds I have been in asc except for round 32. The block seemed to be more determined to hit asc than app once we napped so we never would have had the chance to turn around and hit app.

The only choice we had was when we napped apprime - we could have left them there with all their bloc of incomings. The argument was that once app had been brought down we would be next. So the wiser idea was to nap app and fight back as best we could even if it almost certainly condemned us to second as soon as we did it - we were always going to be hit as soon as we joined the war as we had too many roids, it never stopped. There was frankly little debate about what should be done, a post was up on asc.tv, debate seemed even and then it was suddenly decided by someone - either theam or reese, not sure. Unusually the decision was not because they won the argument but because they went over the heads of those who thought we should wait and see.

Could we have switched sides? well I guess in theory of course we could at any point. In practice it would not be that easy. With a joint channel, defending each other and all our organisers committed to following apprime we were not likely to have anyone who could carry the argument to switch. Given asc's previous history if I was the bloc I would not have accepted asc switching sides - taken it as a boon and kept hitting asc (or briefly switched to app to make sure it lasted). Asc would no longer get any def from vsn or app so our core gals would not hold up so well, similarly app would no longer get def from asc. Either way both app and asc would have lost out.
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 18:38   #27
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Re: Congrats Apprime

The question that asc should be asking themselves is why is there such anti asc resentment? Also what can be done to preventing this from stopping us from winning future rounds
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 19:09   #28
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
The question that asc should be asking themselves is why is there such anti asc resentment?
If we control proceedings, this just isn't a factor.
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 19:11   #29
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Re: Congrats Apprime

of course there is anti asc sentiment, it wont go away until we have lost a few rounds and are obviously no longer the real threat. I think for this round it has been unjustified as we were probably not the big threat (and if we were the rest of the universe would need to hang their heads in shame given the shambles we were - good thing app won!)

reasons why we are disliked (neither list is in any particular order):
- too many past victories
- fortress galaxies - for some reason people love fence galaxies that never get incs but hate fortresses that fight off immense incomings every week.
- too many forums posters (the asc troll squad as we tend to be labeled)
- we have a reputation for being willing to do anything for victory (I dont think it is true but its the reputation)
- too many 'top players', I think this has to be less the case now that apprime probably has more top players than us, but again it is a perception thing.
- perceived to be arrogant - comes with the victories I guess, tbh a lot of pa players are as arrogant

On the other hand there are many of our good points that are ignored
- we never break our political agreements
- we don't have fixed politics until we commit ourselves, we try to be as neutral as possible until forced - either by being attacked ourselves or the unwillingness of others to fight
- that asc has changed the game in terms of how alliances are run - many (think app/p3n) are no longer just run by HCs but people can have as much input as they want
- not directly asc but many asc players have contributed a lot to the game in terms of ideas - mz, lok, formerly JBG, cochese
- willing to do things to try to break stagnation in the game - a large number of players seem to want to just gal raid all round (including me!) - may be safe but hardly innovative... other things like going for being unscannable in round 25, all xan in several rounds, going entirely for xp in one of the teens rounds (before I played so not sure) etc...
- a community that keeps running even when people are not playing they can be part of asc, still be in all the channels, still make a difference - they can still vote in munin and express opinions on what is happening if they wish.

edited for mz, right as always
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 19:59   #30
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
of course there is anti asc sentiment, it wont go away until we have lost a few rounds.
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Originally Posted by booji View Post
1, too many past victories
2, fortress galaxies - for some reason people love fence galaxies that never get incs but hate fortresses that fight off immense incomings every week.
5, too many 'top players', I think this has to be less the case now that apprime probably has more top players than us, but again it is a perception thing.
6,
I cant speak for the rest of the universe. This isnt the reason why I resent Asc. It is healthy for an alliance to have ambitions and a community spirit.
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 20:17   #31
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
The question that asc should be asking themselves is why is there such anti asc resentment? Also what can be done to preventing this from stopping us from winning future rounds
Basically because constant losers need someone to place the blame for their own incompetence on. It´s just as easy, seriously.
You will notice competent allies (like Apprime) hold no grudge against Asc unlike pretty much everyone else who plays.
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 20:22   #32
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I cant speak for the rest of the universe. This isnt the reason why I resent Asc. It is healthy for an alliance to have ambitions and a community spirit.
You're completely wrong. Winning because you're popular is pointless.

The question we should be asking ourselves are "Why couldn't we defend better?" and "How can we improve our attacks?" and "How can we improve communication internally?".

Blaming a loss on resentment is stupid and pointless. The focus should be on what we can do to improve our performance.
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Unread 19 Dec 2009, 20:24   #33
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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reasons why we are disliked (neither list is in any particular order):
If your list isn't ordered, don't enumerate. Instead, itemize! This was a free advice sample, brought to you by mz.
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Unread 21 Dec 2009, 01:40   #34
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Regardless of what has been said above from a personall perspective i enjoyed of good rnd of teamwork and cooperation from another alliance.
It goes to show that previous rounds should be forgotten in the sense that asc and app were at war but a new round brings new tactics. I just hope that this will be the case next rnd and hope that there will be no gangbang situation again.
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Unread 21 Dec 2009, 02:43   #35
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
This isnt the reason why I resent Asc.
share with the group!
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Unread 21 Dec 2009, 04:07   #36
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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You're completely wrong. Winning because you're popular is pointless.

The question we should be asking ourselves are "Why couldn't we defend better?" and "How can we improve our attacks?" and "How can we improve communication internally?".

Blaming a loss on resentment is stupid and pointless. The focus should be on what we can do to improve our performance.
i 2nd ur opinion. Think of how to improve def and att.

and

Congrat to App/ASC/VsN for the good team work . Cya next round
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Unread 21 Dec 2009, 20:53   #37
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Do you guys not feel any disappointment in the fact that you lost?

Sure it was nice to see you guys didn't give up towards the end of the round as you usually do so epically in the past, but I think those few weeks of shitting on your planets would have been more fun than the rest of the round playing against a bunch of headless chickens with apparently zero desire to actually win.
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Unread 21 Dec 2009, 22:49   #38
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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a bunch of headless chickens with apparently zero desire to actually win.
I could easily attribute this to Ascendancy given their political position.
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Unread 21 Dec 2009, 22:58   #39
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Yeah well it's very easy for you Lok to make such statements not having been involved in anything of what went on.

I'm not saying Ascendancy couldn't have played their cards differently, but we went into the round without any real motivation/hope to win(certainly some of us atleast did), and we probably realised too late that we did have the chance to win, so that in the end we ended up cornered in(I still doubt if we could have somehow out manouvered the block as well as Apprime, especially seeing as the block's primary goal was to "prevent Asc from winning").

Personally I think Ascendancy played a decent round, we could definitively have done better, but one has to consider the fact that we did not have the same quality in the member base that we had in some of the previous rounds(amongst other external factors).
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Unread 22 Dec 2009, 00:38   #40
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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I could easily attribute this to Ascendancy given their political position.
Yes, Ascendancy did make some bad choices (or more accurately, failed to make any choices) for the last few weeks, but at least had a clear goal for most of the round (weak beginning though as isil said).
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Unread 22 Dec 2009, 01:30   #41
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Yes, Ascendancy did make some bad choices (or more accurately, failed to make any choices) for the last few weeks, but at least had a clear goal for most of the round (weak beginning though as isil said).
Beating CT ?
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Unread 22 Dec 2009, 01:41   #42
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Yeah well it's very easy for you Lok to make such statements not having been involved in anything of what went on.

I'm not saying Ascendancy couldn't have played their cards differently, but we went into the round without any real motivation/hope to win(certainly some of us atleast did), and we probably realised too late that we did have the chance to win, so that in the end we ended up cornered in(I still doubt if we could have somehow out manouvered the block as well as Apprime, especially seeing as the block's primary goal was to "prevent Asc from winning").

Personally I think Ascendancy played a decent round, we could definitively have done better, but one has to consider the fact that we did not have the same quality in the member base that we had in some of the previous rounds(amongst other external factors).
It's great to see that pretty much everything I used to say was forgotten within ten minutes of me leaving. You can always win. You can always change the political field to better suit yourself. Quality is also bullshit. From the names that I saw in ascendancy there was comfortably enough quality to win the round. You don't have to be the best alliance ever to do that. Personally I thought you (as in Ascendancy) didn't value winning this round. This I could understand. I agreed with it myself as the #1 ranking at this stage is totally devalued for me. If you were actually a) idiots followed by b) bewildered concluded by c) slapping yourself on the back for not disbanding midround or something that's a fairly sad state of affairs.

I mean, what I'm getting here is you didn't think you could win early on, realised late on you could and instead of taking a chance and making a decision that only might win you the round you went ahead and did nothing and lost it anyways. If you genuinely didn't think it was worth pursuing that's different, nobody criticises the alliance DC for not also having the #1 planet. No offence isil but this post makes you look worse than the block. At least they have their immense streak of failure to fall back on as their reason for not even bothering to try.
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Unread 22 Dec 2009, 03:28   #43
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Yeah well it's very easy for you Lok to make such statements not having been involved in anything of what went on.

I'm not saying Ascendancy couldn't have played their cards differently, but we went into the round without any real motivation/hope to win(certainly some of us atleast did), and we probably realised too late that we did have the chance to win, so that in the end we ended up cornered in(I still doubt if we could have somehow out manouvered the block as well as Apprime, especially seeing as the block's primary goal was to "prevent Asc from winning").

Personally I think Ascendancy played a decent round, we could definitively have done better, but one has to consider the fact that we did not have the same quality in the member base that we had in some of the previous rounds(amongst other external factors).
No, I'm just calling it how I see it from years of experience. You played like xVx in round 31. Had they been proactive it would have been game over for us, much like it would have been for Apprime this round. So what if you're ahead and 5 alliances are on your tail. Apprime would be dead and you'ld have a clear focus, namely the #2 alliance. Who lets face it, Asc would outclass whoever it was. If you have a chance to kill your major contender, take the opportunity.
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Unread 22 Dec 2009, 07:24   #44
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Personally, I felt very uncomfortable about the possibility of breaking the nap with Apprime. The comparison with xVxin round 31 is apt, though I do think that if we hadn't overtaken xVx that round, we would've done the same thing then as we did this round.

This round, I initially felt that winning didn't have any value, that having fun was basically all that mattered, simply because of the ridiculous number of rounds we've been winning recently. What would one more add? When Apprime did overtake us I couldn't help but feel disappointed though; we should've been able to stay ahead of them, and didn't. So yeah, we failed.

The real issue might be that I'm just misattributing my boredom to winning (when we are) and not winning (when we aren't), when in reality, it's just the game as a whole that bores me.
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Unread 22 Dec 2009, 08:32   #45
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post

I mean, what I'm getting here is you didn't think you could win early on, realised late on you could and instead of taking a chance and making a decision that only might win you the round you went ahead and did nothing and lost it anyways. If you genuinely didn't think it was worth pursuing that's different, nobody criticises the alliance DC for not also having the #1 planet. No offence isil but this post makes you look worse than the block. At least they have their immense streak of failure to fall back on as their reason for not even bothering to try.
Basically, I atleast, was under the belief that several alliances was going to have full tags this round, and seeing as Asc was very far from that when ticks got under way(I personally wanted us to have a smaller tag this round) I was hoping we could go the "DLR route" this round with about 40 members in tag cruising through the round. As it turned out though we did end up in a fight, not only because people always think Asc have a strong enough playerbase to win, but also because few other alliances really had full tags either(Apprime f.ex was pretty much the same as us) meaning that we were suddenly a big threat to whoever was going for the round win.

Im not gonna write a whole lot about what happened next, I think most of it has been written about by others, but I think there are a few key reasons for why Apprime ended the round so much more strongly than we did and thus also won clearly;

* Apprime had alot less incs than Asc last half of the round(I'm guessing this is due to the block wanting Asc not to win, i mean, we had alot less roids than App at this point)
* Apprime recruited quite a few high ranking capable players from other alliances midround, something we didn't really do(a very few exceptions).
* Our activity level in general was not high enough, we had some very stupid crashes in our fortress gals, and we never really got a attacking momentum going(primarily because, imo, people really couldn't be assed this round).

So. in hindsight, there might be some grand plan that means we end up winning, but overall i really don't see (m)any in Asc really caring for the top ally rank this round and thus it would probably have taken someone stepping up to a immense degree in order to get the whole alliance going.


edit: This is my own views, I'm not speaking on behalf of Asc or anything just so that's clear..
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Unread 22 Dec 2009, 10:05   #46
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
edit: This is my own views, I'm not speaking on behalf of Asc or anything just so that's clear..

A lot of this I agree with actually, with the added addition, that as said on our very private forums, communications between 'those active' was somewhat lacking. We just weren't that good as we could have been.
That said and the realisation that 'we were shit'. I can live with the fact that we never really got 'attacking momentum' going (like Apprime did when the 'heat' shifted to us), we did a rather good job of defending and that did sort out our alliance a bit.
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Unread 22 Dec 2009, 15:08   #47
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Bottom line is this rd we ( asc ) were shit , on nights when the block was hitting app we didnt put any targets up instead we choose to play a wait and see game sending out attacks in the morning on retal's and with almost everyone in asc not as active as previous rds our roid gains on our nights off from inc were not good enough to keep up with app
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Unread 22 Dec 2009, 18:03   #48
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Re: Congrats Apprime

Ascendancy lacked any political initative in the final 2-3 weeks of the round, due primarily to a lack of experience by those running things (not meant as a flame, I think they've learnt from it, and also I'm not advocating Ascendancy should have turned on Apprime, there were other options), and also a lack of input from some of the "old-guard" that really should/could be more involved.

At the end of the day, Ascendancy took a beating in order to ensure a block win, while at the same time as a result handing over the #1 ranking to Apprime.
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Unread 22 Dec 2009, 19:08   #49
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Re: Congrats Apprime

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Originally Posted by ellonweb View Post
Ascendancy lacked any political initative in the final 2-3 weeks of the round, due primarily to a lack of experience by those running things (not meant as a flame, I think they've learnt from it, and also I'm not advocating Ascendancy should have turned on Apprime, there were other options), and also a lack of input from some of the "old-guard" that really should/could be more involved.

At the end of the day, Ascendancy took a beating in order to ensure a block win, while at the same time as a result handing over the #1 ranking to Apprime.
Couldn't agree more. Add to that what Jester said: 'Winning is so incredibly overdone'. Taking a beating, handing Apprime the win and denying those blocking idiots anything didn't sound too bad.
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Unread 22 Dec 2009, 22:58   #50
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Re: Congrats Apprime

You're not being bashed for not winning, you're being bashed for not playing solid planetarion.
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