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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 04:11   #51
eksero
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
Aha, clearly you dont have any HODORS/HEROES?
Or are you talking about "we" as in your other tag Ultores?
This is getting confusing
Are you for real?
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 06:25   #52
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

Less spam pls.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 07:10   #53
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

im have no idea where butcher draws his conclusions from but they always seem to be the complete opposite of what's been said
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 07:44   #54
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Aha, clearly you dont have any HODORS/HEROES?
Or are you talking about "we" as in your other tag Ultores?
This is getting confusing
<rUl3r> .whois eksero
-Munin- No members matching 'eksero'

Maybe this clears things up a bit for you. You're welcome.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 08:30   #55
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
<rUl3r> .whois eksero
-Munin- No members matching 'eksero'

Maybe this clears things up a bit for you. You're welcome.
Fake log!!
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 08:46   #56
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by rUl3r View Post
<rUl3r> .whois eksero
-Munin- No members matching 'eksero'

Maybe this clears things up a bit for you. You're welcome.
Munin is the allie bot of who? HEROES?
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 09:55   #57
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
Munin is the allie bot of who? HEROES?
Asc
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 10:09   #58
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Munin is the allie bot of who? HEROES?
Munin is the bot controlling all planets, irc accounts, forum accounts (including this one), ... besides yours.
Basicly this "game" has been a sick joke on you for the last 20-30 rounds. Some kind of experiment too see how retarded you can become when posting.
I think we can wrap up the experiment pretty soon though
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 10:36   #59
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Munin is the allie bot of who? HEROES?
Jesus Christ, dude...
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 13:15   #60
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by Zh|l View Post
Bigger tags would make things worse.

What you need are smaller tags so smaller alliances can actually compete and stand a chance of winning. If more alliances were in the 'threshold' of being able to win, you may see better politics.
100% correct. Make the game more competitive for more tags, and you get more fluidity, more wars, more battles, more fun rounds, and more players longer term.

Definition of insanity right? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?

Well that's what PA has been for the last few years. 50-60 tag limits, expecting player numbers to grow, and they don't.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 13:33   #61
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

Seems like more and more people are starting to realise this, when I've been stating it for rounds.

I've been helping out in Rogues this round to try and see if the introduction of new allies can somehow stop this political stagnation where the same allies team up each round. It doesn't seem to be the case, so there's definitely evidence to suggest making it a more level playing field with reduced tag sizes is the right thing to do. Gl trying to get the admin team to listen though.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 13:56   #62
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

a change of tag sizes would be a bandaid fix, i dont believe it would last more than a couple of rounds before you see the same political agendas being pushed by the most organised alliances, the top players will be in the top alliances and the bottom ones in the bottom ones, what it needs is an incentive to help bridge the gap between the garbage planets and the people who play this daily
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 13:59   #63
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
Seems like more and more people are starting to realise this, when I've been stating it for rounds.

I've been helping out in Rogues this round to try and see if the introduction of new allies can somehow stop this political stagnation where the same allies team up each round. It doesn't seem to be the case, so there's definitely evidence to suggest making it a more level playing field with reduced tag sizes is the right thing to do. Gl trying to get the admin team to listen though.
It pains me to say this, but I concur here. Every round, I have stated this case to the Admin team in #alliances, and every round I received a stern "No."

While I have had the luxury of playing in a full-tag most rounds, I do feel that the competition among alliances is dire. Smaller tags-sizes would bring fresh competition, which is what the game needs.

Last edited by Clouds; 23 Jun 2015 at 14:29.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 15:39   #64
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
It pains me to say this, but I concur here. Every round, I have stated this case to the Admin team in #alliances, and every round I received a stern "No."

While I have had the luxury of playing in a full-tag most rounds, I do feel that the competition among alliances is dire. Smaller tags-sizes would bring fresh competition, which is what the game needs.
Its against the nature of PA players to want to compete for anything.
Most would rather enjoy sitting a round without competing with other players attacking them.
We need big and strong tags, who can take a beating. If anything there is too few big "war tags" left, i dont see how Ult was gonna be able to survive with everyone in close proximity ganging up on them every round if they only had half of the players they have atm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
Seems like more and more people are starting to realise this, when I've been stating it for rounds.

I've been helping out in Rogues this round to try and see if the introduction of new allies can somehow stop this political stagnation where the same allies team up each round. It doesn't seem to be the case, so there's definitely evidence to suggest making it a more level playing field with reduced tag sizes is the right thing to do. Gl trying to get the admin team to listen though.
Rogues seems to have come into this game with a plan to try kill other tags in close proximity at all cost.
Last round they kept ganging up on BowS and having some strong urge to kill of p3nguins, and to me it seems like they have kept up this style yet again this round. I got no clue what BowS/HR/P3ng has done to Rogues, but at times it seems like they are just around to try ruin the round for smaller tags?
Asc is another new tag this round, and i got no clue who they are hitting, so i wouldnt claim they are the same as Rogues.

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Originally Posted by ReligFree View Post
100% correct. Make the game more competitive for more tags, and you get more fluidity, more wars, more battles, more fun rounds, and more players longer term.

Definition of insanity right? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?

Well that's what PA has been for the last few years. 50-60 tag limits, expecting player numbers to grow, and they don't.
PA is allready to hard for the casual player, and the "band wagon" effect wich was greatly increased with the introduction of PaX and now with smaller tags than ever before makes it close to impossibole to keep the casual PA player interested over a period of multiple rounds.
"Your account was created on Sat Jan 7 21:53:02 2012 and 63.8% of all accounts were created after yours!" this is quite a interesting statestic, it somehow would suggest that there is quite a few new accounts being signed up every round, and it would suggest that people do start new in this game or comes back for a comeback round or two, the issue is that too many players are leaving after a short period in this game.
Ive suggested before to have some limit of fleets able to be sent at one alliance unless you are at war with it, and i also suggest that the "war feature" should be introduced.
Seeing how rarely the war function is used is a proof for me that people dont want war and battles, if that was what people was looking for they would keep clicking at it.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 16:42   #65
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post



Rogues seems to have come into this game with a plan to try kill other tags in close proximity at all cost.
Last round they kept ganging up on BowS and having some strong urge to kill of p3nguins, and to me it seems like they have kept up this style yet again this round. I got no clue what BowS/HR/P3ng has done to Rogues, but at times it seems like they are just around to try ruin the round for smaller tags?
Asc is another new tag this round, and i got no clue who they are hitting, so i wouldnt claim they are the same as Rogues.


Stop commenting on this thread please. It's for far more intellectual people with rational thoughts. HR hit Rogues forts 3 nights in a row before being retalled and p3n have done it incessantly all round so I think Rogues are well within their rights to hit them.

You want to give smaller tags more of a chance, give them an even playing field - so then they dont feel obliged to heat the weakest ally that has forts. Thanks
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 16:46   #66
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Its against the nature of PA players to want to compete for anything.
Most would rather enjoy sitting a round without competing with other players attacking them.
Is it any surprise, when defence is so tiring, I find myself yawning all the time just from getting up to send def at 4 am, and I havn't been attacked much or done any DCing this round. Courting incoming means wrecked nights, for pa players who are mostly no longer students able to sit up all night for defence. Inc avoidance for your own good health!

IMO all the political problems you describe stem from an imbalance between the effort required for defence and for attacking. If you attack you can prelaunch and go to bed at a sensible time, then get up at an ordinary hour in the morning, scan and calc. If you want to defend you have to get up in the early hours of the morning then devote all the time until breakfast and beyond sending smses to haul people online for their ships to fight off successive waves.
As a result of this imbalance of the activity required for defence and attack the ultra active, who can manage defence, and the troll tags, who dont bother, are favoured to the disadvantage of those in the middle. The ultra active category thrive in war but there are few of them. The troll tags would also thrive, but since they wont hold roids they are not in the end going to be competitive even if they had the numbers. The result is the vast majority have little incentive to fight long and hard wars.
You could (probably will) use this as an argument to say bigger tags are a good idea. That argument would say you have more people of average activity guarded by a small group of ultra active DCs. However, even the people willing to be DCs are not going to cheer for having a huge workload. Having to DC the wartime incs on 80 people would just be too much for most and lead to the DCs advocating war avoidance for the sake of their own sanity, or all seeking to join alliances with a higher proportion of DCs to ordinary members.

You say there are 'too few war tags left' in fact I dont think there has been any serious decline in war tags because for as long as i can remember all the best players have gravitated towards one or two tags. (perhaps to avoid DCing 60 moderately-actives!). Indeed the current competitiveness of three tags (BF, Ult and CT) is rather better than often is the case.

The solution is not going to be found in tag sizes, but in finding a way to make defence more tolerable for the average player, and less reliant on a DC system. The obvious possibilities I see are either the abolition of pre-launch altogether (in the hope of forcing attacks into the daytime) or super-improving the inc scan so that it reveals the land tick of waves on pre-launch (thus allowing pre-launch DCing in the late evening). If war thereby becomes less stressful and more enjoyable, you might get more of it.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 16:49   #67
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

My observations from this thread...

1) Vdm just won the game

2) Butch3r is being himself again, why does this suprise anyone? He has more conspiracy theories then a whole tinfoil hat convention. Its like chemtrails, UFOs, weather control and government implants rolled into one.

3) Forest seems to have lost his touch

4) There will always be someone that thinks Zhil isn't doing something he should be.

5) The Spider Colony shall rise again...

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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 16:56   #68
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
Stop commenting on this thread please. It's for far more intellectual people with rational thoughts. HR hit Rogues forts 3 nights in a row before being retalled and p3n have done it incessantly all round so I think Rogues are well within their rights to hit them.

You want to give smaller tags more of a chance, give them an even playing field - so then they dont feel obliged to heat the weakest ally that has forts. Thanks
BowS has forts aswell.
We had 50 fleets from Rogues the other day trying to FC us while we were hitting a none-Rogues planet, the only rational explaination i had to that they were aiming to keep BowS down.
We have had our forts hit by about every allie in the game, its not that we went full-time rage mode for it.

Its just my view of Rogues, trying to understand the whole mystery with Rogues seems to be above my capabilties
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 17:00   #69
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

You're post is so wrong and irrelevant BloodyButcher that I really am not sure I can reply to it.

You're fundamentally missing the point that by shrinking tag sizes it would change the dynamics of alliances. There wouldn't be a 15 on 1 situation with all the old larger tags teaming on 30 planets. There would never be the need for it. Every alliance would have it's own agenda.

This round, there's under 750 planets. That's shocking, and although it's a summer round, it's still terrible. This game needs to be turned on it's head and seen as a growth opportunity, not as a means to satisfy the few that remain who are entrenched in tags they don't want to leave (me included).

And how do you build a business? By adding new users. And how do you add new users? You create a positive user experience, you find ways to do marketing cheaply and encourage your existing user base to spread the word.

Most of us started playing Planetarion when it was borderline complete embarrassment to tell people you played a game on the internet. Now, you sit on the train to work in the morning and you see 50% of people playing games. Yet PA is decreasing in players. That's an ugly fact. Real ugly.

So my question (and challenge) is, what's the worst that could happen by giving it a go? Or, do we play another round of Best Alliance vs 2/3 Other Alliances with 2 or 3 alliances sticking their oars in along the way whilst PA team take revenue from the 300 planets that bother upgrading? If it flops, you revert back to 60 man tags and play Initarion again.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 17:09   #70
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Its just my view of Rogues, trying to understand the whole mystery with Rogues seems to be above my capabilties
Has it not occurred to you that Bows is allied to BF, and Rogues to Ult and therefore you are natural opponents?
Being the auxiliaries to the big allies in a war need not mean hitting up the rankings, you are both nearly as useful to your allies by hitting their opponent's auxiliary and thereby preventing them from hitting up.

Added to this of course is that there is a history of it from last round, when Rogues fought bows from about pt400 onward because you were either the second or 3rd most hostile alliance.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 17:11   #71
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

I agree with clouds and religfree. Disparity in tag sizes is rubbish.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 17:11   #72
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

If PA crew decreased tag limits i would quit, so atleast something good would come out of it.

There is too few active DCs, and too few self sacrifising HCs left.
As Londo said, people want to win easy, its against the nature of PA players to aim for what is challeging if there is a easier route.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 17:20   #73
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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If PA crew decreased tag limits i would quit, so atleast something good would come out of it.

There is too few active DCs, and too few self sacrifising HCs left.
As Londo said, people want to win easy, its against the nature of PA players to aim for what is challeging if there is a easier route.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 17:21   #74
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

Unless it's heavy Inc you don't need an expert to maximise efficiency. I dc'd for the first time in years the other day: for an experienced player it is not rocket science. Tag sizes need to be proportionate to the player base to encourage collaboration and right now they aren't because they are too big.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 17:31   #75
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
If PA crew decreased tag limits i would quit, so atleast something good would come out of it.

There is too few active DCs, and too few self sacrifising HCs left.
As Londo said, people want to win easy, its against the nature of PA players to aim for what is challeging if there is a easier route.
Lets not suggest I'm in favour of big tag sizes. I'm in favour of dropping tag sizes, alliance size is out of proportion with the universe size. For the reason ReligFree mentioned more proportionate tag sizes would alter the political balance. As a solution it is far from perfect since it brings with it the Officer deficit problem and as you say probably makes it worse. However, even if all the ultra actives were to congregate in one tag then there would still be more competition, because it would be far easier to gather 4 tags of 30 to overwhelm the maximum defence of a 30 man tag than it is to find 4 tags of 60 to do the same atm.
Because we have been through this before so many times I know that you will respond that there will be support tags made. They wouldnt matter a jot for def if the stats were redesigned for 1 tick def only, or if def between allies was abolished.
However, support tags would still attack, and would thus still represent the serious deterrent to a warring universe that I outlined above. Indeed it would be worse because these support tags would be essentially operating as troll tags, any coalition formed against a top tag would have each alliance in the coalition successively overwhelmed by 3 or 4 support troll tags, and who would go to war when thats going to happen. This is why I decided that the changing of tag sizes would not matter unless the underlying attack/defence activity imbalance is altered.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 17:35   #76
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Unless it's heavy Inc you don't need an expert to maximise efficiency. I dc'd for the first time in years the other day: for an experienced player it is not rocket science. Tag sizes need to be proportionate to the player base to encourage collaboration and right now they aren't because they are too big.
Im sure Asc has had normal incs for "mid tags" with 50 on average each night. Do that for two week straight, and a few easy weeks, and add a 100-200 inc week sometime during the round, keep doing that for 5 rounds straight.
Its rather demotivating when the amount if incs by far surpass the amount of avabile def fleets
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 17:41   #77
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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if pa crew decreased tag limits i would quit, so atleast something good would come out of it.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 17:44   #78
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Im sure Asc has had normal incs for "mid tags" with 50 on average each night. Do that for two week straight, and a few easy weeks, and add a 100-200 inc week sometime during the round, keep doing that for 5 rounds straight.
Its rather demotivating when the amount if incs by far surpass the amount of avabile def fleets
Small tags may be thumped by overwhelmingly big numbers of incomings but this would only actually be a problem if the opposing coalitions of tags were too disparate in total numbers.
There would be no point in 4 tags hitting one for a week, the target tag would have lost its roids by day 3 regardless of how 1337 its 30 members were, so the bandwagon would move on to another tag in the same coalition. Round and round it would go, the effect would be rather like an xp round. It would surely create the fluidity you seek.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 17:51   #79
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
Lets not suggest I'm in favour of big tag sizes. I'm in favour of dropping tag sizes, alliance size is out of proportion with the universe size. For the reason ReligFree mentioned more proportionate tag sizes would alter the political balance. As a solution it is far from perfect since it brings with it the Officer deficit problem and as you say probably makes it worse. However, even if all the ultra actives were to congregate in one tag then there would still be more competition, because it would be far easier to gather 4 tags of 30 to overwhelm the maximum defence of a 30 man tag than it is to find 4 tags of 60 to do the same atm.
Because we have been through this before so many times I know that you will respond that there will be support tags made. They wouldnt matter a jot for def if the stats were redesigned for 1 tick def only, or if def between allies was abolished.
However, support tags would still attack, and would thus still represent the serious deterrent to a warring universe that I outlined above. Indeed it would be worse because these support tags would be essentially operating as troll tags, any coalition formed against a top tag would have each alliance in the coalition successively overwhelmed by 3 or 4 support troll tags, and who would go to war when thats going to happen. This is why I decided that the changing of tag sizes would not matter unless the underlying attack/defence activity imbalance is altered.
There has never been like 4-5 alliances likely to be able to compete for #1 over a period of 4-5 rounds straight, and it never will be.
Even back in the glory days alliances clogged together in 2-3 "sides", and numbers were NEVER the biggest factor of PA.
If we want this game to be growing we need to make the game more enjoyable for new players, and make tags that accept new players stronger.
Marginalizing strength in numbers is not the way to go imho.
Making it easier/possibole for new players to get into a active alliance, having active BCs/DCs is key, if tag limits were smaller bows would just focus on the very best players, and im suremost other allies would do the same, wich would be the death of the casual player.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 18:04   #80
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Im sure Asc has had normal incs for "mid tags" with 50 on average each night. Do that for two week straight, and a few easy weeks, and add a 100-200 inc week sometime during the round, keep doing that for 5 rounds straight.
Its rather demotivating when the amount if incs by far surpass the amount of avabile def fleets
My point is more that there are now the tools to give individual players autonomy (eg alliance defence), so you can give your rockstar dcs a rest. But I know jack about dcing really.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 18:17   #81
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
There has never been like 4-5 alliances likely to be able to compete for #1 over a period of 4-5 rounds straight, and it never will be.
Even back in the glory days alliances clogged together in 2-3 "sides", and numbers were NEVER the biggest factor of PA.
If we want this game to be growing we need to make the game more enjoyable for new players, and make tags that accept new players stronger.
Marginalizing strength in numbers is not the way to go imho.
Making it easier/possibole for new players to get into a active alliance, having active BCs/DCs is key, if tag limits were smaller bows would just focus on the very best players, and im suremost other allies would do the same, wich would be the death of the casual player.

This won't happend by increasing tag sizes... How naive can you be?
If we increase tag size, the stronger alliances will just have even more of the best players, and the gap between nub alliances like your own and alliances like ult would increase even more drasticly.

By lowering tag sizes the gap will decrease. As there would be easier to make politics to take down those in the lead. This won't happend with increased tag sizes at all.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 18:26   #82
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
There has never been like 4-5 alliances likely to be able to compete for #1 over a period of 4-5 rounds straight, and it never will be.
etc...
I dont know why this was aimed as a retort to me. I was clearly not envisaging a system where multiple alliances would compete. I was still presuming a two sided system, just with multiple tags on each side. The difference lies in the inherent vulnerability of small tags meaning that unlike today it would not be obvious which was the lead tag of each side and if it was then that tag would be ground down easier than is the case now. So more would be in competition that way, each side having several potential winners, not because there would necessarily be more sides. (though that would also be more likely than now).

Your rainbows problem is not a problem, small tag sizes would make it easier for the casuals to create an alliance of optimal size not harder, since tags like cobra would now be relatively better able to defend themselves. (ingame tools helps a lot here)
Furthermore between the time I last played in the r30s and re-joining in r60 something happened that dragged even the small tags into the big wars. Alliances like Hidden Agenda or F-crew were not seriously involved in the wars for or against the top alliances in those days in the way they seem to get dragged in these days. (with the exception of the once a round festival of all launching on Asc and donating salvage). The obvious reason for the change is the relatively larger tag size compared to the universe making it more important to have everyone to make a gangbang effective, and by extension for the possible victims of a gang-bang to seek out alliances from the lower ranks in order to prevent a gang-bang.
Therefore going back to smaller tags would reduce the need to ally far down the rankings because it would once again impossible to avoid a coalition of overwhelming numbers simply by napping and allying. In a 600 planet universe with 30 man tags you would have 20 tags and need to nap 15 of them to avoid a situation where enough fleets can be gathered to overwhelm the defences of a single tag.
If the bottom tags were marginal to politics they would receive less incoming, thus be less troubled by the DC problem than they are now. Indeed the bulk of their incs would be solo raiders which would be more easily dealt with. In addition because the more elite tags would have become easier to overwhelm there would be less bottom feeding simply because there would be less need to do it to land an attack.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 19:10   #83
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

Readers can probably ignore most of the muddled middle section of that post above. The important bit for small alliances is the last point - less bottom feeding because there is less need to do so.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 20:10   #84
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Most of us started playing Planetarion when it was borderline complete embarrassment to tell people you played a game on the internet. Now, you sit on the train to work in the morning and you see 50% of people playing games. Yet PA is decreasing in players. That's an ugly fact. Real ugly.
I honestly never thought of it like that.

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So my question (and challenge) is, what's the worst that could happen by giving it a go?
But I think I do have some insight into why PA isn't being radically changed: because it's hilariously risky, and will probably kill PA in 6 months.

Let's be honest here. PA Team is not exactly backed by millions of dollars in venture capital, and likely never will be. Even just beginning to get PA improved would take tens of thousands of dollars, and that is such a low estimate it's not even funny. So what you're asking is for someone in PA Team to put themselves into debt to invest a sizeable amount of money into improving a dying game.

Look at AD2460. We know Spinner got about quarter of a million dollars in subsidies from the Norwegian government to develop it. It's absolutely safe to say the actual development cost a factor 2-10 more than that. That's just how the games industry works, even the niche browser based one both AD2460 and PA are in. And even if you believe that budget could be much smaller, AD2460 hasn't exactly turned out to be a revolutionary game, nor has it led rankings in app stores, a smashing success featured in articles the world over.

So PA Team has a choice. Take a very large risk, invest a large amount of money into the game, and maybe, maybe if they're lucky, PA will become about as successful as AD2460. That is to say, not very. And in the overwhelmingly likely scenario that it flops, you can't just revert back to PA r63. You're also stuck with a second mortgage you took out in order to undertake this adventure.

And on top of that, PA Team doesn't even own PA. Jagex does. PA Team merely has a license for its exploitation, under the guise of Ranul Tech.

"Oh," you say, "but what about crowd sourcing? That's really been taking off the last couple of years, hasn't it? Could that work?" Don't make me laugh. Hell will freeze over a dozen times before the PA community would raise even a thousand bucks, which wouldn't even pay a freelance developer fresh out of university for a week.

So what's the alternative?

Simple: muddle on. There are still 750 people playing, and that number is only decreasing by about 10-20 a round. At that rate, PA could go another 5-10 years before it dips below 500, which is still not dead.The great advantage of this approach is that it risks nothing. PA is marginally profitable, to my knowledge, and even though PA will never prosper again in this scenario, not investing in it also means that if the servers explode tomorrow, or the entire player base moves to Eve, PA Team can just move on with their lives. No stress, no debt, no hassle, just shrug and move on.


The second option is safe, boring, defeatist... and 100% the one I would pick, were I in PA Team's shoes.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 23:19   #85
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

I honestly don't understand the argument against decreasing tag limits.

The arguments I've seen are that there aren't enough players in the game to create loads of brand new alliances, or that there isnt enough DCs/Officers/High Command level of people in the game to foster it.


To this I point out the lowering of tag size wouldn't be to enable new alliances to form more easily and compete (it would o nly be a 'possible' side effect) - but to enable current alliances that aren't the "big three/four" to get more impact in the game.

I've seen so many rounds where alliances who can't reach the tag limit may as well not play for an alliance win or really conduct any politics around this. If more alliances were in the threshold, you'd see more movement in politics as suddenly the "second tier" alliances that are the ones who don't currently have 'full' tags would have far more options.

I don't pretend that decreasing tag size would solve all of PA's woes, because frankly it wouldn't - you still have the issue of attack/defence inbalance and how exhausting it can be.

But to me, anything that gives more power to the alliances like Rogues/Bows/ND/HR/p3n that are currently not full tags and unlikely to be full tags anytime soon must be better for the game overall.
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Unread 24 Jun 2015, 02:28   #86
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

[quote=BloodyButcher;3243821 if tag limits were smaller bows would just focus on the very best players, and im suremost other allies would do the same, wich would be the death of the casual player.[/QUOTE]

alliances would just run 2 tags, one with core members, another one with recruits, like old wings, making harder be a spy. motivates new players do all right to join core tag.
not that i believe this gonna become reality some day, just to prove u cant point out what gonna happen. no1 knows.

edit:

mz, pa changes since r1.
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Unread 24 Jun 2015, 13:34   #87
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

Why not keep alliance tag sizes the same but just lower counting score?
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Unread 24 Jun 2015, 13:50   #88
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Why not keep alliance tag sizes the same but just lower counting score?
I thought the def planets in ultores was annoying enough allready
You want more of them?
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Unread 24 Jun 2015, 14:07   #89
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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I thought the def planets in ultores was annoying enough allready
You want more of them?
Just have the counting score as the average. so smaller and more cohesive tags can beat the larger ones. and make sure that you cant get around it by kicking all the crappy ones at the end make it cumulative so if your tag goes from 60 to 30... they take a 50% penalty to their total.

im sure there are ways around it tbh... but its more a case of the game is dying so why bother? better to just rinse as much out of it for as little effort then close the door once there is less income than covers the operating costs.

Edit:
Additionally if they really want to balance out the attack and defensive playgrounds then the real problem is that the whole premise of this game is attack... but it was designed for far larger numbers of players. with such a small memberbase you cant really give people a breather and go elsewhere...

You cant even fix that by having a limit on incoming fleets, but I suppose you could enforce some sort of value limit on just how much fleet tonnage can be thrown at an alliance? even if it was 1.5x the target alliances value it would still be too open to abuse... with alliances setting pl's on each other to lock themselves down and then hitting their enemy jointly.

No matter what fix they try to use to save this game, it wont work because the players do not care about the game, they care about winning at all costs.
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Unread 24 Jun 2015, 14:28   #90
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

The standard technique in pa is ganging up on 1 alliance, don't see how lowering tag limits is going to have any positive effect except making it even easier to gang up on 1 alliance?
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Unread 24 Jun 2015, 14:31   #91
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
I thought the def planets in ultores was annoying enough allready
You want more of them?
The offensive support planets or "workmates" as they are called that only exist to recall once real fleet is through is also pretty annoying, please have more of those aswell!

Edit: did i mention they don't even need to be in a tag at all? O HAPPY DAY!!!!
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Unread 24 Jun 2015, 14:52   #92
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
It pains me to say this, but I concur here. Every round, I have stated this case to the Admin team in #alliances, and every round I received a stern "No."
Should push every round to have that channel disbanded, was the worst design decision PA Admin team ever made and that should say a lot.
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Unread 24 Jun 2015, 15:00   #93
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Should push every round to have that channel disbanded, was the worst design decision PA Admin team ever made and that should say a lot.
Now that i hear Clouds is suggesting smaller tags i should get myself access there to veto what ever he says every round
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Unread 24 Jun 2015, 15:02   #94
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Should push every round to have that channel disbanded, was the worst design decision PA Admin team ever made and that should say a lot.
Some minor changes have been implemented from requests within #alliances.
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Unread 24 Jun 2015, 17:15   #95
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
Some minor changes have been implemented from requests within #alliances.
Can you clarify what the exact point of #alliances is?
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Unread 24 Jun 2015, 19:03   #96
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Can you clarify what the exact point of #alliances is?
Its a channel for direct contact with the alliances playing planetarion
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Unread 24 Jun 2015, 19:40   #97
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Its a channel for direct contact with the alliances playing planetarion
Go back to your corner, the adults are talking.

For what purpose is the channel?
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Unread 24 Jun 2015, 21:48   #98
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Go back to your corner, the adults are talking.

For what purpose is the channel?
To be a communication channel between PA crew and the alliances.
Clouds usualy use it to whine at MHs being hostile against BF
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Unread 25 Jun 2015, 02:09   #99
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

I've tried to keep out of this (oft repeated) argument but .......

We're in danger of missing three important points:

1/ Many of the small(er) tags are that way through choice, not because they couldn't achieve a full tag if they so wished.

2/ No reduction in tag size could prevent alliances splitting into two parts. Indeed, it would be easier to fill two smaller sections than it would with the current limits.

3/ Former members of existing (full) alliances would be left with four options:
a/ Join another (lesser?) alliance (if they could find one with vacancies);
b/ Form (or join) a new alliance;
c/ Try to play "solo";
d/ Decide to not bother and just quit.
Can we really afford to have players facing these choices?
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Unread 25 Jun 2015, 07:25   #100
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Re: The PA award ceremony. The real one.

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Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
I've tried to keep out of this (oft repeated) argument but .......

We're in danger of missing three important points:

1/ Many of the small(er) tags are that way through choice, not because they couldn't achieve a full tag if they so wished.

2/ No reduction in tag size could prevent alliances splitting into two parts. Indeed, it would be easier to fill two smaller sections than it would with the current limits.

3/ Former members of existing (full) alliances would be left with four options:
a/ Join another (lesser?) alliance (if they could find one with vacancies);
b/ Form (or join) a new alliance;
c/ Try to play "solo";
d/ Decide to not bother and just quit.
Can we really afford to have players facing these choices?
1/ While I agreed with this statement a number of rounds ago, that definitely isn't the case anymore nowadays. I am certain the likes of Faceless/Rogues/p3n wouldn't mind being at full tag this round. Unfortunately there just aren't enough 'quality' players around anymore. The sheer fact not even the likes of HR/ND/rainbows can recruit to a full tag anymore shows how much the tagsize has been caught by reality. Yes, Faceless/Rogues/p3n have the option(choice) of merging into what is effectively 2 full tags, but what makes an alliance is a common sense of identity. Merging tags often leads to some massive issues among the 'common' members, giving an already overloaded command team an even more stressfull time. Mind you, the smaller a tag is the more sense of identity the average Joe has.

2/ While this is absolutely true, and something that would undoubtedly happen a couple of times in the long run, I don't think anyone said that the sole reduction of tagsize would completely fix PA/the current complete lack of metagame. For one, there is a pretty big issue with how alliances are ranked solely on total score atm, where even having only 1 additional member can create a rather large score gap. Perhaps even 'fixing' the ranking could completely take away the need to lower tag limits. However, that is a pretty major fix, while a reduction of tagsize offers a much more on-the-fly bandaid-fix.

3/ that would pretty much be the 4 options surplus members have yes. tho there are some more, that can even have a pretty major impact on the end game, as stojke proved last round. I personally think that reducing tagsizes shouldn't be done within the single round, to ease the transition of such surplus members, however, the end goal should be around the 40-45 member mark imho. By gradually going down it may turn out that a limit of 50 allready fixes the current issues and lowering further might even turn out moot.
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