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Unread 10 Jun 2015, 22:12   #1
Mzyxptlk
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On sandbagging

The last few rounds, only galaxies outside of the top 10 are eligible for a late signer.

Unfortunately, gettting one is still as good as mandatory, because having a 10th or 11th planet is 9-10% of your final score, which is a huge difference. In order to get a late signup, people engage in what has come to be known as sandbagging.

Sandbagging is intentionally playing the game badly. You don't spend resources, because ships give more score than resources do. You don't land attacks (escorting is fine), because XP is useless even if you're not trying to stay small, while roids increase your value and income.

I want to play the game, but it is providing me with a perverse incentive not to. That is the exactly opposite of what a game should do.

Please remove it.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 10 Jun 2015, 22:52   #2
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Re: On sandbagging

Late signers should be removed as a whole.
Its the most pointless feature of planetarion
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Unread 10 Jun 2015, 22:55   #3
Mzyxptlk
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Re: On sandbagging

No argument from me.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 11 Jun 2015, 02:57   #4
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Re: On sandbagging

I could argue that it is NOT the MOST pointless feature in the game, but i do agree something has to be done about it. Like being removed or go back to the way it used to be.
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Unread 11 Jun 2015, 04:20   #5
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Re: On sandbagging

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I could argue that it is NOT the MOST pointless feature in the game, but i do agree something has to be done about it. Like being removed or go back to the way it used to be.
The whole idea that someone should be wanting to play exactly after a certain tick, and therefor should be able to join a private galaxy is stupid.
Im not saying that we shouldnt allow people to join a BP after pt12, but it should be X slots in each BP, no matter when you join.
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Unread 11 Jun 2015, 06:07   #6
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Re: On sandbagging

i believe that it has decreased the amount of people resetting mid round to late start on a positive note

thus making it harder to find a decent late starter for your gal
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Unread 11 Jun 2015, 07:33   #7
Mzyxptlk
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Re: On sandbagging

I agree that decreasing the impact of late starters is a good thing. But telling people not to play the game is emphatically not the way.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 11 Jun 2015, 17:53   #8
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Re: On sandbagging

It actually has the effect of HELPING the pro gals, rather than stopping em.

For instance my gal got lucky and landed decent randoms so havent needed to exile. This means we are around 20th on value/roids but top 10 on score because other gals lse score when exiling planets.

At tick 336, people who have been exiling planets will get a late starter and soon overtake mine. and there wont be a lot we can do about it

it has the effect that exiling players looking for the guys you want makes their chances stronger
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Unread 11 Jun 2015, 19:46   #9
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Re: On sandbagging

Indeed
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Unread 11 Jun 2015, 20:27   #10
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Re: On sandbagging

Infact the more I think of it, the more unfair it seems...

Value 20th-ish
Size 20th-ish
Real score 20th-ish
Counted score top 10 ahahaha you got trolled and cant have a later starter but dont worry, all the pro gals staying small can have one. muahahhaha
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Unread 11 Jun 2015, 20:51   #11
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Re: On sandbagging

remove the late signup as a whole
and while your at it remove self-exiling also or limit it to 3 times

force the ppl to play with whom they ever may get - have the top shows play the same game like the bottom 500 do
the positive side effect is that their playing skills and knowledge might be transfered to new players (the few there might be)

STOP THE ELITISM NOW
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Unread 12 Jun 2015, 07:31   #12
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Re: On sandbagging

remove buddy packs aswell
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Unread 13 Jun 2015, 07:51   #13
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Re: On sandbagging

Bring back public galaxies. It was the most fun being a GC of a public gal. Huge amounts of planets and lots of social side as well as helped to get new players into alliances.

I assume you got rid of it because I dominated public gals with two in a row wins and all the elite private gals whined that they couldn't beat us.
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Unread 13 Jun 2015, 08:28   #14
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Re: On sandbagging

pub gal/priv gal is a bad idea as the size of pub gals become too big for alliances to hit later on, and priv gals can't compete score wise
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Unread 13 Jun 2015, 09:17   #15
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Re: On sandbagging

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Bring back public galaxies. It was the most fun being a GC of a public gal. Huge amounts of planets and lots of social side as well as helped to get new players into alliances.

I assume you got rid of it because I dominated public gals with two in a row wins and all the elite private gals whined that they couldn't beat us.
No..

Because they were utterly massive and unhittable.

Allies can barely manage a 10 man gal these days let alone those 20+ "random" gals.
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Unread 13 Jun 2015, 09:32   #16
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Re: On sandbagging

i am against priv/random gals simply because i am against full private gals - it will once more concentrate the elite players in a few galaxies and everyone else struggling to compete
while the public gals get unhittable too - with more and more planets added
meanwhile the private gals of the semi-actives will be everyone`s farms

DO THIS:
full random or
buddypacks of 3-4 players max
no exiling (or like said limited to 2-3 try´s)
no late signing

FUN for ALL
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Unread 13 Jun 2015, 10:05   #17
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Re: On sandbagging

How is it fun to be stuck in a gal of inactives?

You stop people exiling, they will just use up exiles, delete planet and repeat. Its no "fun" to be stuck in a inactive gal. (and people have different ideas of active and inactive in this game)

Personally I think the idea of sandbagging is quite amusing, i enjoyed it last round. This round everyone seems to have gone for it. It seems to have held up the round about 100 ticks with everyone effectively idling.
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Unread 13 Jun 2015, 10:28   #18
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Re: On sandbagging

i think ppl need to get rid of the thought that all 10 planets in galaxy have to be top players - and also get rid of the opinion that only in the stated case the round can be fun

you can play enjoyful rounds and do good personal ranks even if your stuck with 4 top and 3 semi players + nubs
even more when all gals in universe face the same issues

and i never said its fun to be stuck in a gal full of inactives - however playing in a scenario i discribed doesnt neccesarily mean your stuck with 9 inactives
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Unread 13 Jun 2015, 10:33   #19
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Re: On sandbagging

a galaxy full of randoms gives you less ingal defense potentially so we could see a switch back to full MT rounds to help compensate if it becomes a massive roid swapping issue
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Unread 13 Jun 2015, 14:36   #20
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Re: On sandbagging

Just remove galaxies as a whole.
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Unread 13 Jun 2015, 18:16   #21
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Re: On sandbagging

Get rid of late sign ups.
Do everything possible to stop support planets bouncing in and back out in search of their chosen golden galaxy. This in a way is exploiting the whole exile system by a small number of the 'elite' galaxies and shouldnt be such good option
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Unread 13 Jun 2015, 19:38   #22
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Re: On sandbagging

Get rid of late sign ups for sure, there simply is no need for them.

But is there also now a time to discuss changing the way galaxy score is calculated.

Could be as simple as only 80% of planets count to score, to something more complicated such as planets in the gal from start have 100% of score counted, tick 0-99 90%, tick 100-199 80% etc on a sliding scale

So galaxies who exile lose the ability to have all score counted.

The system needs to reward people who dont exile planets out and make it essential for them to keep 'inactives' and work with them
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Unread 13 Jun 2015, 19:46   #23
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Re: On sandbagging

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Get rid of late sign ups for sure, there simply is no need for them.

But is there also now a time to discuss changing the way galaxy score is calculated.

Could be as simple as only 80% of planets count to score, to something more complicated such as planets in the gal from start have 100% of score counted, tick 0-99 90%, tick 100-199 80% etc on a sliding scale

So galaxies who exile lose the ability to have all score counted.

The system needs to reward people who dont exile planets out and make it essential for them to keep 'inactives' and work with them
So in effect, you have a good shuffle (IE 7:1 this round) you walk the round?
I think we all forget just how many god awful planets also play this.
Guys who will crash 5 or 6 times a round, or people who just don't want to play actively or can't. People who don't want to get up in the middle of the night to def (I cant say i blame them).

But why should people who are happy to do that in effect be stuck with these guys?
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Unread 13 Jun 2015, 20:33   #24
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Re: On sandbagging

I always belived the introduction of BPs was as a compliment tp hardcoded tags. Hardcoded tags meant that alliance play was gonna be the main focus of players in PaX. The fact thar certain gals seems to be more stable than alliance these days would point to something in between went wrong?
Late signers and exile tactics perhaps the things that should be reviewed, not gal score.
But i think forests idea is good, to avoid exiling, the same way alliance score is only counted for time not in another tag
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Unread 14 Jun 2015, 08:27   #25
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Re: On sandbagging

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benneh View Post
So in effect, you have a good shuffle (IE 7:1 this round) you walk the round?
As opposed to the same old gals who abuse the system to get full private gals walking the round?

When was the last time a 'random' gal won?

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I think we all forget just how many god awful planets also play this.
Aye. Exiling them straight away really helps eh?
As long as the pro gals get their guys in, who cares about players who don't stand up to the elitism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benneh View Post
Guys who will crash 5 or 6 times a round, or people who just don't want to play actively or can't. People who don't want to get up in the middle of the night to def (I cant say i blame them).
It is part of the game. Just ask Golden.
Reduced score or score for only top 80% would mean pro gals don't lose out on score to 'lucky' gals.

But we know they will be against it cause they want there big defence pools and fencing to pay off.

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But why should people who are happy to do that in effect be stuck with these guys?
Just like, the 95% of pa who arent in a pro gal you mean?
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Unread 14 Jun 2015, 09:18   #26
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Re: On sandbagging

This is not a thread about fixing perceived or real issues with galaxies. This thread is about sandbagging. If you want to talk about something else, feel free to... in a different thread. If everyone could stop derailing this one, that'd be great.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 14 Jun 2015, 09:22   #27
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Re: On sandbagging

I am not sure they aren't linked.

Sandbagging is an issue. To fix it you need to fix late sign-ups. To fix late sign-ups you need to fix the exile system. To fix exile system you need to fix gal score. Fixing gal score will fix sandbagging.

The circle of life!
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Unread 14 Jun 2015, 10:46   #28
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Re: On sandbagging

The exile system was made the way it is to prevent certain people to make priv gals.
Its basicly the same discussion mz
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Unread 14 Jun 2015, 12:12   #29
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Re: On sandbagging

I'd just get rid of the score limit - in the end top galaxies are smart enough to find a way to gain an advantage. If you want to fix late signups etc then that's a separate issue.
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Unread 14 Jun 2015, 12:39   #30
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Re: On sandbagging

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest View Post
I am not sure they aren't linked.
Sandbagging is a simple problem, caused by a stand-alone feature that can just as easily be removed again, and this seems largely unopposed.

There is widespread debate over whether late signing is an problem at all, but if it is, it is a far larger and more complicated issue than sandbagging, with no proper solution in sight, and even if we come up with one, it is likely to be controversial.

Related or not related, I am not about to let a small and simple problem get attached to a large and complicated problem and subsequently and inevitably scuttled for being intractable.

For the record, I am actually in favour of removing late signing, but this thread is not the place. So make your own damn thread.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 14 Jun 2015, 12:54   #31
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Re: On sandbagging

Yes sir!

well no actually, i cba, but i will step out of this one as i think its clear you dont see the problem enough to be able to debate it
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Unread 14 Jun 2015, 13:46   #32
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Re: On sandbagging

"increase tag sizes"
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Unread 14 Jun 2015, 15:03   #33
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Re: On sandbagging

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest View Post
well no actually, i cba, but i will step out of this one as i think its clear you dont see the problem enough to be able to debate it
Let's see. Veiled insult to opponent's intelligence? Check. Occupying fake high ground by 'stepping out'? Check. Still getting in the last word? Check., check, double check.

Moving on. You accuse me being unable to see the problem. I don't care to debate whether that is the case or not (pointless), but seeing the problem is no use if the proposed solution is too large, complicated or controversial to ever get implemented.

Everyone who's ever worked on a large piece of software knows that the larger the risk and scope involved in a project, the higher the odds that it will either never get started, or never get finished. By those measures, the vague and ad-hoc suggestions for fixing this galaxy score problem (not just yours) are so far beyond the scope of my original suggestion that they do not belong in the same thread, regardless of whether they are related or not.

So, once again, if you want to make suggestions that are so large and complicated that they will never get implemented, that's fine with me. I am not being sarcastic here. I post on PS as much to contribute improvements for PA that might get accepted within a couple of rounds as to simply engage in discussions about interesting new features that in theory would fit in a game like PA, but that we're all aware will never get implemented, If you want to talk about fixing late signers or even larger issues, I'll be happy to participate. But not in this thread. Hence:

Make.
Your.
Own.
Thread.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 14 Jun 2015, 15:09   #34
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Re: On sandbagging

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
The exile system was made the way it is to prevent certain people to make priv gals.
You've switched cause and effect. The exile system was implemented long before (20+ rounds) galaxies systematically started creating what are essentially private galaxies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Its basicly the same discussion mz
It''s 'basically the same discussion' in the same way as suggesting to someone they replace their gear box when they're just washing the car on a quiet sunday afternoon. Both activities may improve the car, but the scope is vastly different. See my response to Forest for a longer rebuttal.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 14 Jun 2015, 16:59   #35
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Re: On sandbagging

So sandbagging and crazy exile costs have been around for 20+ rounds? You can only exile 2 each 200 ticks or whatnot.
Staying low in score/value has been a strat for ages, this "new" late starter rule is just another retarded way to "abuse" this.

There is obvious a higher biasedness around in this community wich is telling Appoco to keep the late starter feature. PA team is as corrupt as FIFA
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Unread 14 Jun 2015, 17:15   #36
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Re: On sandbagging

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
So sandbagging and crazy exile costs have been around for 20+ rounds? You can only exile 2 each 200 ticks or whatnot.
Staying low in score/value has been a strat for ages, this "new" late starter rule is just another retarded way to "abuse" this.

There is obvious a higher biasedness around in this community wich is telling Appoco to keep the late starter feature. PA team is as corrupt as FIFA
Do you read your own posts before you hit "Submit Reply"?
Spewing out so much crap as usual.
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Unread 20 Jun 2015, 14:36   #37
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Re: On sandbagging

I mean making it so the entire galaxy can get donations every 12 hours regardless of score makes it easier to sandbag too, as you can get all the value you lost back over the next 400 ticks from a late sign covoper/high-roid-low-value player donating to the gal. Lets also consider the top players are making multis and bping them to exploit this exact feature as well. I dont know who reviews these rule changes but some of them slant the game in the direction they are supposedly trying to get away from.

And yes playing a round with some inactives wont kill you Benneh. Think about a Shit Footy team with a Star player or a few good players. They dont emo to the media because their team sucks, they just become a star. The best players are the ones who make the others around them better in ANY GAME.
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 13:39   #38
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Re: On sandbagging

Yeah, I hate the new gal fund having experienced it first hand this round. Really think it should be changed back to the old way, as well as just getting rid of bp late starters all together
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 13:46   #39
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Re: On sandbagging

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Originally Posted by Munkee View Post
Bring back public galaxies. It was the most fun being a GC of a public gal. Huge amounts of planets and lots of social side as well as helped to get new players into alliances.

I assume you got rid of it because I dominated public gals with two in a row wins and all the elite private gals whined that they couldn't beat us.
I also second this. I used to enjoy the in galaxy political battle to be GC (for the 10% mining bonus and 5% for minister positions). That was so much more fun!
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Unread 23 Jun 2015, 15:12   #40
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Re: On sandbagging

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vistion View Post
I mean making it so the entire galaxy can get donations every 12 hours regardless of score makes it easier to sandbag too, as you can get all the value you lost back over the next 400 ticks from a late sign covoper/high-roid-low-value player donating to the gal. Lets also consider the top players are making multis and bping them to exploit this exact feature as well. I dont know who reviews these rule changes but some of them slant the game in the direction they are supposedly trying to get away from.

And yes playing a round with some inactives wont kill you Benneh. Think about a Shit Footy team with a Star player or a few good players. They dont emo to the media because their team sucks, they just become a star. The best players are the ones who make the others around them better in ANY GAME.

Quite often they do, and generally the best players end up playing with the best ones.

How about the ones who get incs and hide vacation mode, ARE THEY NOT JUST THE WORST.

Anyway. Not the thread.
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Unread 25 Jun 2015, 22:50   #41
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Re: On sandbagging

I mean realistically I was in the Mountains on vacation for 9 days during said instance. but it's whatever
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