lost 650 million res and PA HQ are liers!!

[cbk100]

Lo PA HQ and lo the rest of the comunity.

Please take notice that I am writing this message in anger and there might be some outbursts which you will just have to live with.

I'm writing this message, partly on behalf of my galaxy and partly on behalf of myself. First of all my galaxy demands our resources back which PA HQ STOLE from us and second of all I demand at least Karmulian to either step down or simply be fired by jolt.

This is hard accusitions but I have my reasons and I will present them to the comunity as I think they deserve to hear the truth and since this is the only way PA HQ can learn that they can't just treat the players as they want.

Well first about the resources that PA HQ stole from me and my gal:

In my galaxy we agreed to begin to donate to the fund to keep ourself small and to give the other gals the impression that we were small while we were actualy big. What we did when we hit the 25 million mark was simply to donate out the 25 millions to someone in the gal and then other ppl donated res into the fund so that there was for eksampel 24999999 res there and the one who had recieved the 25 millions donated them back in and then there was 49999999 res there and such we went on...

Ofcourse I had checked the manual about this to see if I was breaking the rules by doing thisand to my suprise there was no limit stated in the manual and therefore there was nothing to stop me from doing it and we started to do it.

today just b4 the res got stolen there was this in the fund:

[21:30] <cbk-away> how much res was in that fund?
[21:30] <cbk-away> EXACLY
[21:30] <Penga> mom
[21:31] <Penga> The Galactic Fund
[21:31] <Penga> In the galactic fund, you will have to pay 5% in exchange fees.
[21:31] <Penga> METAL 190747747 Wanted
[21:31] <Penga> CRYSTAL 192747601 Wanted
[21:31] <Penga> EONIUM 180796885 Wanted
[21:31] <Penga> PT : 869

so exacly 190747747 Metal, 192747601 Crystal and 180796885 Eonium.

Then today PA HQ stole res and we ofc. afterwards went to them to give us the resources back...

To continue this and to continue to the other thing (that I want Karmulian to either step down or get fired:

When we had contact with Phil^ about it this was what happened:

[21:50] <Abe> [17:48:41] <Phil^> heh. weve been getting reports of a bug which allowed galaxies to get over the 25 mill limit, all gals who were over it just got reset to 25 mill-ish total, and the bug was fixed
[21:50] <Abe> [17:48:47] <Phil^> if your gal fund was over 25 mill thats why
[21:50] <Abe> [17:56:12] <Abe> ok, is this limit of 25 mil writen somewere ?
[21:50] <Abe> [17:56:20] <Phil^> in the manual
[21:50] <Abe> [17:56:21] <Abe> i've done a search on manual
[21:50] <Abe> [17:56:24] <Abe> couldnt find it
[21:50] <Abe> [18:04:22] <Abe> you found it ?
[21:52] <Abe> [18:04:36] <Phil^> im busy atm discussing your case with the other pateam
[21:52] <Abe> [18:08:04] <Abe> about fund and donations ... i was thinking its on MINING page, at manual
[21:52] <Abe> [18:15:21] <Abe> we all agreed we cant find it on manual, i have all pages saved
[21:52] <Abe> [18:15:43] <Phil^> should be somewhere
[21:52] <Abe> [18:16:13] <Abe> it aint
[21:52] <Abe> [18:16:17] <Abe> i just read them all again
[21:52] <Abe> [18:16:18] <Abe> hehe
[21:52] <Abe> [18:16:30] <Abe> it should indeed
[21:52] <Abe> [18:16:53] <Phil^> if it aint in there, shall have to add it, regardless when you try to donate into the gal fund and its over 25 mill, it stops you
[21:52] <Abe> [18:17:12] <Phil^> you gt roudn it by making sute it wasnt 25 mill, then donating loads to get it well over that
[21:52] <Abe> [18:17:29] <Phil^> when you needed to add to it, it was all donated out to someone, someone else donated in, then all the res was donated back
[21:52] <Abe> [18:18:40] <Abe> but was in the game rules
[21:52] <Abe> [18:18:50] <Phil^> no, it was exploiting a bug
[21:52] <Abe> [18:19:21] <Abe> Phil, if there is no rule having more than 25 mil resources in fund , then there is no bug donating more into it
[21:52] <Abe> [18:19:35] <Phil^> pls, use common sense

For that there is nothing else to say than: There was a set of rules (EULA and manual) that we all signed to live by and obey... If we don't obey them then we can be punished... EVERYTHING we do beside that we can't be punished for... you can't be punished for not using common sence, going around what is "called a bug" or whatever... I won speedgame final by donations and that was fully legal and this is no different. There was NOTHING in the manual or EULA to state that what we did was wrong. Also keep in mind that we PAID for this game and therefore we have rights and PA HQ can't just do as they want with us unless they have valid proof for it.

(let me just ask what happends in the real world if someone does something that could be looked at as morally incorrect? or what some would call "obusing" the rules? the answer is simple: NOTHING cause you can only be punished for not following the rules and its as simple as that)

So there is NO WHAT SO EVER fundament for taking the res away from us. We MAYBE found a bug in the game but if it is so then correct that bug and update the manual (which you have allready done but we will get back to that l8er) but you will ofc still have to give us the resources back into the fund (and yes it has to be in the fund and for however use we see fit cause when you make a rule it can't take effect b4 it got changed).

As Angellady from my gal puts it and which she has taken DIRECTLY from the manual B4 anything was changed in it:

[21:40] <AngelLady> "You can donate resources to the galaxy fund at any time by entering the amount of resources you want to donate followed by hitting the Donate button." <-- it is cleary stated that u can donate whatever u want

And what she states there is EXACLY what we did... nothing more... nothing less.

When I went to confront Karmulian about it then this happened (bear in mind that I was pissed(which I think I was/am for obvious reasons))(I have tried to take out what is absolutely not needed in the log as its rather long):

**************
Session Start: Sun Apr 25 20:51:46 2004
Session Ident: #support
[20:51] *** Now talking in #support
[20:51] <cbk-NO_PM> I need an op
[20:52] <xontas> whats the problem
[20:54] <Karmulian> cbk
[20:54] <Karmulian> Your galaxy (by its own admission on your galaxy forums, and by telling other people who then reported you to us)
[20:54] <Karmulian> was abusing a bug
[20:55] <Karmulian> the bug has now been fixed and as such your gal fund was truncated because of it
[20:55] <Karmulian> abusing a bug is a closable offence
[20:55] <cbk-NO_PM> there were no rule and therefore no bug
[20:55] <Karmulian> in this regard however and due to the fact that 2 of your gal are already clsoed we just truncated your fund
[20:55] <Karmulian> it says on you own gal forums, that there is a limit and you found a way round it
[20:55] <cbk-NO_PM> ROFL on forums?
[20:56] <Karmulian> and a number of private messages sent by your galaxy mates
[20:56] <cbk-NO_PM> I don't think I have signed that I will follow anything told on the forum
[20:56] <Karmulian> no..
[20:56] <cbk-NO_PM> I have comitted and signed that I will play by the manual
[20:56] <cbk-NO_PM> and the manual says nothing about it
[20:56] <Karmulian> there is a limit described in the manual
[20:56] <Karmulian> your galaxy in writing
[20:56] <cbk-NO_PM> ROFL Karmulian
[20:56] <Karmulian> on its own forums
[20:56] <Karmulian> admitted there is a limit
[20:56] <cbk-NO_PM> where in the manual?
[20:56] <cbk-NO_PM> where?
[20:56] <Karmulian> and admitted they found a way round it
[20:57] <cbk-NO_PM> where do you see that in the manual?
[20:57] <xontas> we are NOT talking about the manual
[20:57] <xontas> we are talking about your own forum
[20:57] <Karmulian> Trading on the open market does not have any restrictions - you can always trade
[20:57] <Karmulian> the resources you want to, although you will have to pay a 25% tax here.
[20:57] <Karmulian> There is a limit to how many resources can be in the galaxy fund at any one time.
[20:57] <Karmulian> You may have up to 25 million resources in total.
[20:57] <cbk-NO_PM> when did you put that into the manual?
[20:57] <Karmulian> after your bug it has also been added to the mining page
[20:58] <cbk-NO_PM> when did you put that into the manual?
[20:58] <Karmulian> it has been there some time
[20:58] <cbk-NO_PM> ROFL
[20:58] <cbk-NO_PM> and now you lie to me?
[20:58] * Karmulian sighs
[20:58] <cbk-NO_PM> I have proof of what I say
[20:58] <cbk-NO_PM> PA HQ lieing now
[20:58] <Karmulian> our avoiding the slight fact your own galaxy mates have admitted abusing a bug
[20:58] <cbk-NO_PM> simply just **** YOU
[20:58] *** You were kicked by Pie ([Warning] :: No offensive language ::)
Session Close: Sun Apr 25 20:58:36 2004

Session Start: Sun Apr 25 20:58:44 2004
Session Ident: #support
[20:58] *** Now talking in #support
[20:59] <Karmulian> your avoiding the slight fact your own galaxy mates have admitted abusing a bug
[20:59] <cbk-NO_PM> when there is no rule there is no bug
[20:59] <cbk-NO_PM> at least not anything that we can be punished for
[20:59] <Karmulian> funny that your own galaxy mates say " we have found a way round the gal fund limit"
[20:59] <cbk-NO_PM> and that you simply lie to me is just too low!!!!
[20:59] <Karmulian> thus admitting there were aware of a limit (which was in the manual)
[20:59] <xontas> ok could you also listen to other people when you discuse something, if not we are don cbk-NO_PM
[21:00] <cbk-NO_PM> xontas should I listen to ppl when they simply lie to me?
[21:00] <cbk-NO_PM> PA HQ lieing
[21:00] <Karmulian> nope
[21:00] <xontas> he didnt lie
[21:00] <cbk-NO_PM> he said it was there for some time
[21:00] <Karmulian> however i could alternativly close your planets?
[21:00] <cbk-NO_PM> it was put inthere AFTER our res was taken
[21:00] <Karmulian> as bug abuse it a closable offense
[21:00] <cbk-NO_PM> that was today
[21:00] <cbk-NO_PM> so if some time = a few hours then he is right
[21:00] <Karmulian> nope cbk, its been there a while
[21:00] <cbk-NO_PM> if some time is more than that then he lies
[21:00] <Karmulian> as it was someone else who reported it to us
[21:00] <cbk-NO_PM> in my definition he lies
[21:01] <xontas> the res wher take away because people admited to bugabuse on YOUR forum
[21:01] <cbk-NO_PM> in common sence he lies
[21:01] *** Karmulian sets mode: +m
[21:01] <cbk-NO_PM> Karmulian bring forth your proof
[21:01] #support Cannot send to channel
[21:01] <Karmulian> cbk shush a moment
[21:01] <xontas> ta karmy
[21:01] <Karmulian> it has been in the manual
[21:01] <Karmulian> it has also been admitted on your own forums that you were abusing a bug
[21:01] <Karmulian> the bug has been resolved and gal funds of offending galaxies truncated (not just you)
[21:01] *** Icy|Away is now known as Ice-Lady
[21:01] <Karmulian> that is the end of the story
[21:01] *** Karmulian sets mode: -m
[21:02] <cbk-NO_PM> you lied... PA HQ lieing is just too low
[21:02] <Karmulian> i have lied in no way
[21:02] <cbk-NO_PM> I have my proof and I will let the comunity see it
[21:02] <xontas> np
[21:02] <cbk-NO_PM> well I will let the public judge that
[21:02] *** az|cooking is now known as az|food
[21:02] *** Wakey is now known as Wakey|afk
[21:02] <xontas> i suggest you go do that then
[21:03] <cbk-NO_PM> I will
[21:03] <Ice-Lady> can i ask what benefit it would have the PA team to lie cbk?
[21:03] <Ice-Lady> like, what would it gain us?
[21:03] <cbk-NO_PM> to defend themself
[21:03] <Ice-Lady> over what?
[21:03] <Karmulian> cbk thats ok, you post it
[21:03] <cbk-NO_PM> Ice I don't care what it would benefit... I simply just claim that they did lie
[21:03] <Karmulian> i will post where you and your galaxy admitted abusing a bug
[21:03] <cbk-NO_PM> and the thing is that I can prove it
[21:03] <Karmulian> in irc logs, private messages and gal forums
[21:03] <Ice-Lady> well, there is NO benefit to pa team lying
[21:04] <Karmulian> thus your arguement will be null and void
[21:04] <Karmulian> but nm
[21:04] <cbk-NO_PM> I have nothing more to say... I will put forth my proof on forums... I can't be arsed to close this window so I will just say "**** YOU"
[21:04] *** Pie sets mode: +b *!*@cbk.users.netgamers.org
[21:04] *** You were kicked by Pie ([1] :: No offensive language :: (Auto) Duration: 40m)
Session Close: Sun Apr 25 21:04:23 2004
************

[21:00] <Karmulian> however i could alternativly close your planets?

Is that power obuse? or just threatening the ppl who paid accounts to play his game?

let me first of all comment on this since I didn't see that when I was in the channel... well just go ahead your F**KHEAD cause if you can steal our res you at the same time claim that we broke the rules which gives you the good right to delete all of us (so yes ofc you could just do that), but keep in mind that we paid for this game.
But count on that then it will not be the end of this discussion and I think some ppl a bit higher in the system will simply just f**k you over. (once again sorry about the language).

As everyone can see Karmulian (several times) claims that it was stated in the manual, that there was a limit of 25 millions... go to the manual and take a look at it and POOF!!! there you see it... exacly what you saw him paste in that log.
But why do I then claim that we didn't break the rules? cause its obvious to see that either Karmulian lies DIRECTLY to me and the comunity which is ofc. enough reason for him to get fired or else I'm full of crap.

Karmulian ofc. says what he says to simply just close the case that way and by saying that it has been in the manual for some time he simply just closes the discussion. Or does he?

No ofc. he doesn't as I have some wise ppl in my gal who was fast enough to go to the manual page today just after the res got taken (I was to a confirmation today myself) and there they found this:

®µ§@Ѐ®ß@߀ *PA admins = shitheads* says:
http://gallery.drofdar.me.uk/Crusie/manual_001?full=1 (B4)
©®µ§@Ѐ®ß@߀ *PA admins = shitheads* says:
http://www.planetarion.com/index.php...=13&submenu=35 (After)

and this as backup:

[20:49] <Abe> [19:12:53] <mens> http://privat.bluezone.no/hendrix/temp/before.jpg
[20:49] <Abe> [19:12:53] <mens> http://privat.bluezone.no/hendrix/temp/after.jpg

There is obvious to see that what Karmulian claims is simply just a lie and therefore there is no doubt that Karmulian should simply just either step down from PA HQ or jolt or spinner(if its in his power) should simply just fire him.

Beside that its easy to see that is was not in the manual which means that we broke NO rules and therefore can't be punished for anything.

The conclusion to this is that I/WE demand EXACLY the same amount as was taken from us, donated back into the fund and I personaly demand Karmulian either to step down or get fired.

cbk
(partly on behalf of my gal)

[cbk100]

Plz don't post any reply to this post unless you have read EVERYTHING carefully and I don't want any flaming or unserious posts in this thread. THIS IS TO BE TAKEN VERY SERIOUS!!!

cbk

[Forest]

1:10 was aware we couldnt go over 25 mill res , and so we didint, in case we lost res.

And how can u use the evidnce of low down, cheating scumb (lo Abe),

[General Martok]

Originally Posted by cbk100

For that there is nothing else to say than: There was a set of rules (EULA and manual) that we all signed to live by and obey... If we don't obey them then we can be punished... EVERYTHING we do beside that we can't be punished for... you can't be punished for not using common sence, going around what is "called a bug" or whatever... I won speedgame final by donations and that was fully legal and this is no different. There was NOTHING in the manual or EULA to state that what we did was wrong. Also keep in mind that we PAID for this game and therefore we have rights and PA HQ can't just do as they want with us unless they have valid proof for it.

http://manual.planetarion.com/index....=13&submenu=35

Trading on the open market does not have any restrictions - you can always trade
the resources you want to, although you will have to pay a 25% tax here.
There is a limit to how many resources can be in the galaxy fund at any one time.
You may have up to 25 million resources in total.

[Stifler]

u exploited a bug and the bug was found, get over it

Unless your stuipd (no offense,) you had to know it was a bug as you went a round about way to donate over 25mil into the fund. If it was an intended feature there would not be something that stopped you going over 25mil you could just donate normally to get over.

Also about you winning the speedgame finals by donations there was no limit on the fund then, therefore you were not exploiting a bug.

[Newbori]

the problem is
once u donate 25 million fund says its full
basicly any way u use to get around this means ur doing something wrong

that doesnt have to be in the rules, its in the game
the game says 'sorry, fund full, use ur resources in another way'
u said 'heres how to get around this'
which isnt allowed
hence PA staff is right, everything else is just bullshit

[cbk100]

Originally Posted by Forest

1:10 was aware we couldnt go over 25 mill res , and so we didint, in case we lost res.

And how can u use the evidnce of low down, cheating scumb (lo Abe),

You followed some rules that was not there. That you weren't wise enough to play the game as it is is not my problem.

And btw. you haven't read the post as I told anyone who posted here to do so your comment is useless and contains NO WHAT SO EVER evidence that what I say in the post is wrong in any kind of way.

But instead your post is a discrase to your good nick which I respected a lot not long ago cause this has ALMOST nothing to do with Abe so simply just don't bring up any shit about Abe in this post.

And if you want to play tough about delivering info about ppl who cheats then watch out that I don't get too pissed and deliver some delicate info about some FAnG ppl (I usualy don't do PA HQ multihunter's job (Like I don't turn my naighbour in for getting something done without paying taxex in rl)). This is not a thread cause I'm sure you will just say that I can just do so, but its simply to state that some FAnG ppl is no better than Abe (and well lets wait and see what PA HQ does with him b4 we judge him).

cbk

and btw. if you want to comment in this post once again then do as it says and read it all and comment on it on a worthy basis with arguments worth listening to.

[cbk100]

Originally Posted by General Martok

http://manual.planetarion.com/index....=13&submenu=35

Trading on the open market does not have any restrictions - you can always trade
the resources you want to, although you will have to pay a 25% tax here.
There is a limit to how many resources can be in the galaxy fund at any one time.
You may have up to 25 million resources in total.

That link is from after they took the res (which proves that you didn't read all of my post either) so go read all of the post and comment on it afterwards ta.

cbk

[cbk100]

Originally Posted by Stifler

u exploited a bug and the bug was found, get over it

Unless your stuipd (no offense,) you had to know it was a bug as you went a round about way to donate over 25mil into the fund. If it was an intended feature there would not be something that stopped you going over 25mil you could just donate normally to get over.

Also about you winning the speedgame finals by donations there was no limit on the fund then, therefore you were not exploiting a bug.

There was no limit on the fund this round either (as you can see by me having 600 mill there) so your arguments are worth nothing.

cbk

[CaShY]

moan moan moan
what happened to the days were everyone was happy

oh yer they never exisited

[General Martok]

Originally Posted by cbk100

That link is from after they took the res (which proves that you didn't read all of my post either) so go read all of the post and comment on it afterwards ta.

cbk

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...9&postcount=10

So it was AT LEAST 11 days in manual.... I was looking for the url, else I'd included it in my initial post...

edit: BTW, ever heared of the mighty powers of photoshop?

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by General Martok

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...9&postcount=10

So it was AT LEAST 11 days in manual.... I was looking for the url, else I'd included it in my initial post...

edit: BTW, ever heared of the mighty powers of photoshop?

I did a careful search of the manual and couldn't find it. A fact which I noted in the following post.

[cbk100]

Originally Posted by General Martok

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...9&postcount=10

So it was AT LEAST 11 days in manual.... I was looking for the url, else I'd included it in my initial post...

edit: BTW, ever heared of the mighty powers of photoshop?

The other link is from today too so it was changed today... unless you define some hours as 15 days then you are simply wrong... I am quite sure that most ppl define some hours as some hours and 15 days as 15 days as its simply how we messure time...

cbk

[Shooter16]

Reguardless if it was found in the manual or not, you and your galmates knew it was capped at 25 million. Almost every single player that has played multiple rounds of PA know that the gal fund is capped. So whether you found the exact number in the manual or not is not the point. By your own posts in your gal forum.. which PA team has the ability to read.. you admitted that you found a way around the 25 million cap. That right there is your knowledge of the limit and they you found away around this barrier reguardless. You and your galmates knew that they exploited a bug and tried to use it to your own advantage. The reason it is capped is so that you can't do what you wanted to use the gal fund for. That is kill off everyone get the roids while you are small and stay small to keep getting roids instead of getting bigger like the rest of the universe because you want it easier. You knew you were in the wrong.. now you whine to get it back after you were caught. I don't agree with PA team giving it back if they do. I say you don't get it back... and by the way its 550 million or so if you totalled it up.. lets not exagerate. PA team was wrong in not admitting their fault.. but you should not be givin back the resources either for exploiting something all of us know.. even you.. after many rounds of playing. You took a chance and failed. in the days of old.. NQP

[JonnyBGood]

PAteam ****ed up and should have had the limit written in.

However the limit has been referred to before and I'm quite sure all of your gal members were aware of it's existence.

You exploited a bug which hadn't been properly clarified by the pateam however the actual effects of your supposed cheating weren't that bad.

If I was still PAteam I'd probably support giving you back your original resources although if they're trying to show they won't let people off on technicalities I can certainly understand their position on this issue.

[Stifler]

Originally Posted by cbk100

There was no limit on the fund this round either (as you can see by me having 600 mill there) so your arguments are worth nothing.

cbk

yes and that "no limit" was due to exploiting a bug, if it was intended you would not have had to donate it all to some1 and then back, if you had to go a roundabout way to do something that should be just 1 click, you think that was intended?

It's like last round the player was closed for making his ships return straight away, he could have said "the game let me so it must be allowed"

[xtothez]

You knew you were exploiting a bug because you had to manually step around it. Don't feed us that bullshit. You tried to cheat and got caught.

Last round the manual didn't say it was illegal to do 1-tick research or use ETA1 travel time. Does that mean people shouldn't have been deleted for abusing those bugs because those specific examples weren't mentioned?

[cbk100]

Originally Posted by General Martok

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...9&postcount=10

So it was AT LEAST 11 days in manual.... I was looking for the url, else I'd included it in my initial post...

edit: BTW, ever heared of the mighty powers of photoshop?

And have you ever head of the fact that Phil^ has admited that it was changed today so that I actualy might be right?

No ofc not cause you are simply one of those who just has to flame here...

And yes I have proof of it but I take it for given that you trust in me and if you don't then just contact Phil^ himself and ask.

cbk

[Newbori]

lol general martok
if u read his post u will find out that line was added AFTER the incident
hence they did not know it
tho the fund telling them should have been enuff explanation

[cbk100]

Originally Posted by xtothez

You knew you were exploiting a bug because you had to manually step around it. Don't feed us that bullshit. You tried to cheat and got caught.

Last round the manual didn't say it was illegal to do 1-tick research or use ETA1 travel time. Does that mean people shouldn't have been deleted for abusing those bugs because those specific examples weren't mentioned?

Have you ever heard of a rl example (and yes its those rules we follow since we have paid for it) where ppl get judged for doing something which is not aggainst any rules? NO exacly I haven't head of that either since it has just never happened.

cbk

[xtothez]

Originally Posted by cbk100

Have you ever heard of a rl example (and yes its those rules we follow since we have paid for it) where ppl get judged for doing something which is not aggainst any rules? NO exacly I haven't head of that either since it has just never happened.

The rule you broke is 'Bug Abuse'. That is quite clearly written in the game rules.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by cbk100

Have you ever heard of a rl example (and yes its those rules we follow since we have paid for it) where ppl get judged for doing something which is not aggainst any rules? NO exacly I haven't head of that either since it has just never happened.

cbk

Yeah. It's called getting off on a technicality. Like over in Ireland recently some paedophile got off because the search warrant that was issued for his house was 5 hours out of date when the police broke in.



(Yay I just compared cheating to paedophilia!)

[SteInMetz]

Originally Posted by xtothez

Last round the manual didn't say it was illegal to do 1-tick research or use ETA1 travel time. Does that mean people shouldn't have been deleted for abusing those bugs because those specific examples weren't mentioned?

But the manual did say what traveltime was, and how research was calculated.

[Kjeldoran]

Abusing a bug should be dealt with. For that I think PA-crew should act.

This bug "abuse" if it was one, didn't harm any planet, galaxy or manipulated the universe in any way whatsoever. Therefor I personally think removing those resources is too severe and that it should stay there and give em a few hours to restore the limit again.

After all, they gained those resources on a fair way, not?

On a sidenote, I find it very sad that PA-crew had to lie about the manual. The log clearly shows it's only been added RECENTLY. Which is ok according to the EULA, but for a PA crew member to actually lie about it to save his own ass, that's pretty unacceptable tbh.

rgds Kj

[cbk100]

Originally Posted by xtothez

The rule you broke is 'Bug Abuse'. That is quite clearly written in the game rules.

Don't you think I have read all of the rules b4 I posted this and don't you think I did it b4 I began to donate to the fund?

Ofc. I did but it seems like you didn't since there is first of all NOTHING about bug abusing in the EULA (game rules) nor in the manual.

2nd of all there was no bug in the game since bug is defined as:

"a mistake or problem in a computer program"

Since there was no such appearing on my screen when I did it and since I did ONLY what is stated DIRECTLY in the manual as legal (I will here refer to the original post) then NOTHING wrong has been done.

cbk

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

This bug "abuse" if it was one, didn't harm any planet, galaxy or manipulated the universe in any way whatsoever.

It allowed them to keep their score down and attack planets they otherwise would have been unable to do so. Hence their bug abuse certainly had an impact on the universe.

[cbk100]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

Abusing a bug should be dealt with. For that I think PA-crew should act.

This bug "abuse" if it was one, didn't harm any planet, galaxy or manipulated the universe in any way whatsoever. Therefor I personally think removing those resources is too severe and that it should stay there and give em a few hours to restore the limit again.

After all, they gained those resources on a fair way, not?

On a sidenote, I find it very sad that PA-crew had to lie about the manual. The log clearly shows it's only been added RECENTLY. Which is ok according to the EULA, but for a PA crew member to actually lie about it to save his own ass, that's pretty unacceptable tbh.

rgds Kj

"The log clearly shows it's only been added RECENTLY. Which is ok according to the EULA"

Its actualy not ok UNLESS they ALSO post the change in the OVERVIEW screen (that is stated DIRECTLY in the manual that they have to do that)

[xtothez]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

This bug "abuse" if it was one, didn't harm any planet, galaxy or manipulated the universe in any way whatsoever.

They had immunity to losing the money via covert ops (saving money on security centers or not needing to sacrifice anything for the engineering priority is a nice bonus).
They were hiding their true strength. It would have been nasty for an someone to launch on the gal only to find they had spent 650mil resources in time for landing.
It artificially kept their score down allowing them to hit smaller targets.
And they knew damn well it was bug abuse due to the way the limit was circumvented.

[Tactitus]

It looks like a bug exploit to me. Yes, the limit wasn't documented in the manual (until very recently), but the fact that one had to jump through some hoops to get around it pretty much shreds any claim of innocence.

PA Team was completely justified in what they did, imho, although claiming that the limit had been in the manual "for some time" was rather tacky.



Note for prospective cheaters: always report "suspected" exploits to PA Team. They rarely read bug reports anyway and then you're covered.

[xtothez]

Originally Posted by cbk100

Ofc. I did but it seems like you didn't since there is first of all NOTHING about bug abusing in the EULA (game rules) nor in the manual.

Misc. Cheating
Cheating in this category is punishable by account closure(1).
This section only contains specific examples and only those are
subject to this punitive measure.
· Bot usage: Configuring third party software(3) to have any
automated interaction with a Planetarion in-game account
(including your own).
· False signup information: Any account containing false
signup information is perceived to have changed ownership
or created with fake information as a multi account.
. Bug Abuse: Abusing a bug in the game to gain benefit over others,
while not reporting it to the Game Administrators

[General Martok]

Originally Posted by cbk100

Don't you think I have read all of the rules b4 I posted this and don't you think I did it b4 I began to donate to the fund?

Ofc. I did but it seems like you didn't since there is first of all NOTHING about bug abusing in the EULA (game rules) nor in the manual.

2nd of all there was no bug in the game since bug is defined as:

"a mistake or problem in a computer program"

Since there was no such appearing on my screen when I did it and since I did ONLY what is stated DIRECTLY in the manual as legal (I will here refer to the original post) then NOTHING wrong has been done.

cbk

edit: XtoTheZ beat me to it. EULA removed

Bug abusing IS in the EULA....

[therealmig]

Firstly ill take the unusual step of announcing the two members of PATeam that done the initial investigation into this bug abuse, one being myself and one being Phil. So this reply is based on total fact rather than the hearsay and rumours that seem to be circulating around irc as i write this response.

I'm even gonna try and work through this post in a logical order based on points raised at the top of this post. GO ME!!!

Last night at approximatly 2am we recieved a report that someone was abusing a bug, the usual steps were then taken to start looking at exactly how this abuse had happened.

What we found after investigation is that the galaxy we were investigating had exploited a bug it had found in the game. As im sure some of you are aware and probably the majority of you are now, there is a 25mil limit on the gal fund.

What we did when we hit the 25 million mark was simply to donate out the 25 millions to someone in the gal and then other ppl donated res into the fund so that there was for example 24999999 res there and the one who had received the 25 millions donated them back in and then there was 49999999 res there and such we went on...

So you got to 25million, and found out that you could no longer go above that limit and so exploited a bug in the code.

Ofcourse I had checked the manual about this to see if I was breaking the rules by doing this and to my suprise there was no limit stated in the manual and therefore there was nothing to stop me from doing it and we started to do it.

However, both your galaxy and the investigating officers know fullwell you were aware of the limit due to a post on your gal forum as below (i have removed some of the post, names and co-ords to hide the identity of the galaxy):

Fri Apr 16 08:48:00 2004
Edit Delete Your galaxy-fund has enough resources. Operation cancelled.

Now I see that there is a limit.... 25 mill res... but I also see that its posible to break it. This means that we can most likely have as many res there as we want (hehe yeah I think I have found another way around the rules ).

This alone is proof alone that they were exploiting a bug.

Let me also make the comment that at no point does the manual ever state rules, it is simply a help guide for unsure players on aspects of the game. Let me also make the comment that, that manual is constantly being changed updated and re-edited to help the player base understand things better with questions that often come up in #support.

Also keep in mind that we PAID for this game and therefore we have rights and PA HQ can't just do as they want with us unless they have valid proof for it.

The investigation carried out was inconclusive, it was carried out by two PATeam members and before we implemented the fix was discussed in depth by four PATeam members, looking at the variety of options of which was closure. As stated in the EULA:

. Bug Abuse: Abusing a bug in the game to gain benefit over others,
while not reporting it to the Game Administrators
Procedure
Once an account has been found guilty of cheating the account
will be closed(1). The owner of the account will be sent an
automated message briefly stating the reason for the closure
and will be given the opportunity to reply to this message to
appeal the decision. Upon completion of this appeal the account
will be subjugated to the proper measures, which can mean
re-opening, deletion or other various punitive measures(2).

(1) Account closure means it will not be possible to log
into the account, fleets and covert operations cannot
be directed at a closed account. Upon closing all
outgoing fleets will be automatically recalled,
closed accounts keep ticking (gaining resources,
auto adjusting stealth/alert levels, etc) with the
rest of the universe.

however when reviewing the options it was a unanimous decision that closure for all accounts involved was too harsh a penalty. However leaving the resources alone and implementing a fix also wasnt an option.

[21:40] <AngelLady> "You can donate resources to the galaxy fund at any time by entering the amount of resources you want to donate followed by hitting the Donate button." <-- it is cleary stated that u can donate whatever u want

And what she states there is EXACLY what we did... nothing more... nothing less.

I challenge anyone to follow the words of the manual, and see if they can get past the 25million without exploiting the bug and using the methods which (s)he has clearly stated they used as shown above.

[20:57] <cbk-NO_PM> when did you put that into the manual?
[20:57] <Karmulian> after your bug it has also been added to the mining page
[20:58] <cbk-NO_PM> when did you put that into the manual?
[20:58] <Karmulian> it has been there some time

By popular demand, i will also add a response to this point, the date we found that this bug was being exploited was today (25/04). There galaxy forums stated they found that the limit (maybe not in the manual) on (16/04) over a week before. Since then it may have been added to the manual, but not to cover PATeam's decision, it was added (need to check with phil when it was added) to ensure that people knew from now on.

[21:00] <Karmulian> however i could alternativly close your planets?

Is that power obuse? or just threatening the ppl who paid accounts to play his game?

No, that would simply just be very harsh punishment, but actually totally acceptable under the EULA which you agreed to when you signed up.

There is obvious to see that what Karmulian claims is simply just a lie and therefore there is no doubt that Karmulian should simply just either step down from PA HQ or jolt or spinner(if its in his power) should simply just fire him.

The only people that can ask PATeam to leave are Jolt, if you would like to esculate this higher than myself and PATeam then i suggest you email me )[email protected]) or pm me on irc and i will arrange an irc meeting with yourselves and Jolt, but i can assure you that this evidence is conculsive.

Beside that its easy to see that is was not in the manual which means that we broke NO rules and therefore can't be punished for anything.

Again the manual isnt rules, its simply a help guide that is constantly under development, the rules can be found at http://jpaweb01.planetarion.com/signup.pl in the EULA box at the bottom.

Thanks

Therealmig

[Forest]

Originally Posted by cbk100

You followed some rules that was not there. That you weren't wise enough to play the game as it is is not my problem.

And btw. you haven't read the post as I told anyone who posted here to do so your comment is useless and contains NO WHAT SO EVER evidence that what I say in the post is wrong in any kind of way.

But instead your post is a discrase to your good nick which I respected a lot not long ago cause this has ALMOST nothing to do with Abe so simply just don't bring up any shit about Abe in this post.

And if you want to play tough about delivering info about ppl who cheats then watch out that I don't get too pissed and deliver some delicate info about some FAnG ppl (I usualy don't do PA HQ multihunter's job (Like I don't turn my naighbour in for getting something done without paying taxex in rl)). This is not a thread cause I'm sure you will just say that I can just do so, but its simply to state that some FAnG ppl is no better than Abe (and well lets wait and see what PA HQ does with him b4 we judge him).

cbk

and btw. if you want to comment in this post once again then do as it says and read it all and comment on it on a worthy basis with arguments worth listening to.

I regard u as a close friend, and i would like to keep it that way.

Dont make me post here logs that show how thinsg really are.

[SYMM]

Haha. Weren't you one of the people complaining last round about Walken exploting the travel-time bug?

[cbk100]

ROFL the EULA just got removed?

Funny that I just remembered to download it and take total screenshoots of it and has it as a normal txt file...

in that there is NOTHING about bugs WHAT SO EVER...

And as I have stated earlier:

[23:35] <Abe> well ... bug = "a mistake or problem in a computer program"
[23:35] <Abe> it cannot be a mistake, neither a prolem into this program because:
[23:35] <Abe> it wasnt stated what the code line should have done, the final result
[23:36] <Abe> code line was : If gal_fund >= 25.000.000 Then Display_Error_donation

^^

Simple as that...

and once again I will refer to all that we did was to do EXACLY what was DIRECTLY stated in the manual (once again I will refer to the original post)

cbk

[therealmig]

Ofc. I did but it seems like you didn't since there is first of all NOTHING about bug abusing in the EULA (game rules) nor in the manual.

Its clearly stated in the EULA

[Leshy]

cbk, the simple fact that you had to use an alternative and fairly unknown way to operate the gal fund in order to get more than 25 million resources in it, proves in itself that you were doing something you could reasonably expect not to be a normal feature of the game.

Finding a loophole or an undocumented bug does not automatically grant you permission to gain an unfair advantage over the other players. You tried to abuse a bug, you got caught and it blew up in your face. Deal with it. If you don't want to "do the time", then you shouldn't do the crime.

[King Cress]

facts :

Karm lied - Phil said it was only changed after the 'incident'

CBK + gal knew it was a bug - Karm has their Gal Forum

Those images may or not be doctored - doesnt matter now anyway, look at point one

--

. Bug Abuse: Abusing a bug in the game to gain benefit over others,
while not reporting it to the Game Administrators
Procedure

--

says nothing about the rules in the manual, simply says that if someone knows a bug, does not report it, and then abuses it, then they are cheating

--

Procedure
Once an account has been found guilty of cheating the account
will be closed(1). The owner of the account will be sent an
automated message briefly stating the reason for the closure
and will be given the opportunity to reply to this message to
appeal the decision. Upon completion of this appeal the account
will be subjugated to the proper measures, which can mean
re-opening, deletion or other various punitive measures(2).

--

If someone is caught cheating, then this is the Procedure. Bug abuse is cheating, therefore all members of CBK's gal which know that there was a bug are cheating. So this Procedure can be activated upon them

--

Karm says he has CBK's gal's forum, he can see who knows that this was a bug, as well as pa mails which may be useful to

--

The PA team will be able to determine who knows that this was bug abuse, via the forum and PA mails in their database etc. These bug abusers are cheaters.

--

If we terminate this Agreement under these circumstances,
you will lose access to your Account for the balance of
any prepaid period, and any unused credits,
without any refund.

--

In Conclusion :

CBK should be thankful his (and others accounts) werent closed, or no closed yet. Cheaters have broke the afore mentioned agreement - and therefore have no rights in the agreement

QED :

I havent done my history homework, and will therfore get in trouble.


btw: this was a slow post, and so other ppl have probably already provided evidence etc



edit : this post uses evidence stated in the signup thingy, EULA or whatever. Ive just read some other posts, and CBK says the EULA was changed.

CBK : provide proof please

[Karmulian]

I'm only going to reference the one part which is about me lying

At the time in question I asked whether it was in the manual, and then never actually read the response. Phil did add it which more people know than i care to imagine.

For this i do sincerely appologise, I did mislead by saying it was in the manual, but then i genuanly thought it was.

There have been a number of cases where people have said it was, and not having read the manual i assume (incorrectly).

As such for that particular error i appologise

[King Cress]

Karm has repented!!!!

CBK, If i was u, then I would be quiet, and thanks sweet Jesus ur not deleted

[xontas]

amen brother

[Kjeldoran]

I wonder if cheaters get of with a simple "sorry" like karm did ....

[JonnyBGood]

Yes because those two situations are exactly the same aren't they kj?

[cbk100]

Originally Posted by therealmig

Firstly ill take the unusual step of announcing the two members of PATeam that done the initial investigation into this bug abuse, one being myself and one being Phil. So this reply is based on total fact rather than the hearsay and rumours that seem to be circulating around irc as i write this response.

I'm even gonna try and work through this post in a logical order based on points raised at the top of this post. GO ME!!!

Last night at approximatly 2am we recieved a report that someone was abusing a bug, the usual steps were then taken to start looking at exactly how this abuse had happened.

What we found after investigation is that the galaxy we were investigating had exploited a bug it had found in the game. As im sure some of you are aware and probably the majority of you are now, there is a 25mil limit on the gal fund.



So you got to 25million, and found out that you could no longer go above that limit and so exploited a bug in the code.



However, both your galaxy and the investigating officers know fullwell you were aware of the limit due to a post on your gal forum as below (i have removed some of the post, names and co-ords to hide the identity of the galaxy):


This alone is proof alone that they were exploiting a bug.

Let me also make the comment that at no point does the manual ever state rules, it is simply a help guide for unsure players on aspects of the game. Let me also make the comment that, that manual is constantly being changed updated and re-edited to help the player base understand things better with questions that often come up in #support.


The investigation carried out was inconclusive, it was carried out by two PATeam members and before we implemented the fix was discussed in depth by four PATeam members, looking at the variety of options of which was closure. As stated in the EULA:



however when reviewing the options it was a unanimous decision that closure for all accounts involved was too harsh a penalty. However leaving the resources alone and implementing a fix also wasnt an option.



I challenge anyone to follow the words of the manual, and see if they can get past the 25million without exploiting the bug and using the methods which (s)he has clearly stated they used as shown above.


By popular demand, i will also add a response to this point, the date we found that this bug was being exploited was today (25/04). There galaxy forums stated they found that the limit (maybe not in the manual) on (16/04) over a week before. Since then it may have been added to the manual, but not to cover PATeam's decision, it was added (need to check with phil when it was added) to ensure that people knew from now on.



No, that would simply just be very harsh punishment, but actually totally acceptable under the EULA which you agreed to when you signed up.



The only people that can ask PATeam to leave are Jolt, if you would like to esculate this higher than myself and PATeam then i suggest you email me )[email protected]) or pm me on irc and i will arrange an irc meeting with yourselves and Jolt, but i can assure you that this evidence is conculsive.


Again the manual isnt rules, its simply a help guide that is constantly under development, the rules can be found at http://jpaweb01.planetarion.com/signup.pl in the EULA box at the bottom.

Thanks

Therealmig

Since you define "bug obuse" by using the word "bug obuse" the definition is just as wague as the word itself and therefore useless.
Therefore I use the generel definition of it which you can see in the other posts and in that case there is no what so ever sign of a bug and everyone else could have done EXACLY the same (which has actualy been admited by PA HQ that some other has done since they have more than 25 mill in fund). This has granted us no advantage that any other couldn't have by playing by the rules (it could even be argued at all if we had an advantage at all since those millions could for example have put into tons of ships).

Remark that I say that I have found a way around the rules... I didn't break the rules... you can only be punished for breaking the rules, so nothing new brought to the case from that statement.

When you say that the manual don't state any rules doesn't you find it strange that they go update it then and lie about it to defend their own a** just after they took the res?

The next thing is that there is no mittle way... Either we broke the rules and we should then be deleted but since you say that there is no basis for that then I take it that we didn't break the rules (which if ofc also true) and then we should have the res back.

"You can donate resources to the galaxy fund at any time by entering the amount of resources you want to donate followed by hitting the Donate button."

And then you say that you will challenge any that say that we can get over 25 mill by simply donating the to the fund... I don't know if you have played the game... but if you have and has tried to do it then you will find out that its simply just that thing we did... If I had the "lets say 500 mill" on my own planet I simply went to the mining page and typed that I wanted to donate the 500 mill and then I donated it and it was in the fund... simple as that... so now you have been challenged and since you got access to all logs you can see that I am 100% right in what I say and in that case I took the win in the challenge.

you say this:

"Since then it may have been added to the manual, but not to cover PATeam's decision, it was added (need to check with phil when it was added) to ensure that people knew from now on."

Ofc we didn't see it in the manual as nothing was there but why do you even refer to the manual when you have said yourself that the manual has nothing to do with rules? "don't step on your own foot"

And if you have read my post then you will see that i have screenshoots which is both from today that states that the change was made today and not one week ago as you say "might be true" and since Karmulian knows that VERY well I will still claim that he lied to me and nothing will ever be able to change that... not even you should be able to doubt that...

And then as a final note I will say that since you are the person in Jolt which can fire Karmulian and since you say that no action will be taken then you also say that its perfectly allright that Karmulian lies to the comunity...

"I simply wonder why PA is losing more and more players round after round after round and so on"


cbk

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Yes because those two situations are exactly the same aren't they kj?

no, looking at the world's society, lying is far worse then cheating in an online text based game ...

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by cbk100

Remark that I say that I have found a way around the rules... I didn't break the rules... you can only be punished for breaking the rules, so nothing new brought to the case from that statement.

Bollocks.

Free piece of good advice: Never become a lawyer.

[DrunkenViking]

I've read your thread cbk, and i only gain sympathy with the PA team...
The fact that you experienced a block at 25 million res in the found should ring a bell in your head saying "oh this must mean that this is max" instead you work your way around it by looking for a bug to exploit, and when you find one, you dont go to the PA team to either ask them if it is supposed to be like this, you just exploit the bug.

Ofc you can say you "shouldnt have to play with comon sense, cause thats not mentioned in the rules" as you said above....but where the hell is the pride in saying "i'm stupid, and that made me win a round", you all are, and will allways be, cheaters, that i have no sympathy for whatsoever. Enjoy your accountless pa experience, hope you learn something, something called "common sense" and "fair play".

[cbk100]

Originally Posted by Leshy

cbk, the simple fact that you had to use an alternative and fairly unknown way to operate the gal fund in order to get more than 25 million resources in it, proves in itself that you were doing something you could reasonably expect not to be a normal feature of the game.

Finding a loophole or an undocumented bug does not automatically grant you permission to gain an unfair advantage over the other players. You tried to abuse a bug, you got caught and it blew up in your face. Deal with it. If you don't want to "do the time", then you shouldn't do the crime.

there is no crime done unless I have broken a rule and I haven't so end of that discussion...

And that other ppl weren't wise enough to see that you could just donate whatever you wanted into the fund then they are simply just stupid... or blind or something like that... actualy there are other posts on this forum from weeks ago with ppl who managed to beat the limit... no action was taken... how come no action was taken when it was on the forum that someone had broken the limit?

I tend to think its just because it was not by much and because it was not by the #1 gal... that is at least my guess. Maybe you have a better one.

cbk

[Stifler]

Originally Posted by cbk100

"You can donate resources to the galaxy fund at any time by entering the amount of resources you want to donate followed by hitting the Donate button."

And then you say that you will challenge any that say that we can get over 25 mill by simply donating the to the fund... I don't know if you have played the game... but if you have and has tried to do it then you will find out that its simply just that thing we did... If I had the "lets say 500 mill" on my own planet I simply went to the mining page and typed that I wanted to donate the 500 mill and then I donated it and it was in the fund... simple as that... so now you have been challenged and since you got access to all logs you can see that I am 100% right in what I say and in that case I took the win in the challenge.

cbk

but u also said you donated it out and then had it donated back with more to get round the limit.

second, if you had 500mill resources on ur planet (for what ever reason ) that resources could mayb be co-op AND it would raise your score so ppl would u had this resources to spend if they attacked. In the gal fund, it is safe and its hidden from possible attackers

[xontas]

look mate its simple:

even if it wasnt in the manual, you all knew about the limit !
_______________________________________________________________
Quote:

Fri Apr 16 08:48:00 2004
Edit Delete Your galaxy-fund has enough resources. Operation cancelled.

Now I see that there is a limit.... 25 mill res... but I also see that its posible to break it. This means that we can most likely have as many res there as we want (hehe yeah I think I have found another way around the rules ).

____________________________________________________________________

so if you where aware that there was a limit, any way for you to get past that using a trick is a bug in the system.
and using a bug in the system to get a advantage is cheating (you saying you found a other way around the rules proofs you knew that)

you cheating should get you closed but they desided to let you stay and take away the resources (you even kept the 25mil each)

so to go short, you guys took a risk and lost
you got punished (lightly)
and now you can 1) play on 2) leave

both options are fine with me