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Unread 3 Apr 2004, 13:09   #1
Tomkat
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Which bright spark thought up this ship?

The Broadsword?

It's a big ship, shoots other CR. Fair enough.

However, it doesn't freeze (which, although it doesn't kill, is very effective for resources). And it doesn't kill either, so you can't punish enemies who land on you.

Now the subverting is very nice if you hit ships that can shoot others on their side. But the Cath CR don't shoot other CR at all. So you are left with this cruddy ship that effectively is a Freezer, but has crap stats.

This leaves Zik with a shoddy CR defence (oh Dagger, I'm shaking in my boots).
Zik already have shocking FI defence - the only ship that shoots other FI is the Scythe, which can be ripped apart by some Sirtalis.
AND their main anti-FR ship is also their primary attacking ship, so isn't likely to be home very often (the Rapier). Yes, there are Claymores, but they're so expensive, and for an added bonus, they have Subverting "powah" too. Fantastic.

Seriously, more thought should have been put into the stats this round. Which numpty came up with this subverting idea? It's terrible.
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Last edited by Tomkat; 3 Apr 2004 at 13:15.
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Unread 3 Apr 2004, 13:32   #2
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

The Scythe is more effective than it looks. Run a battlecalc of it vs. some Sirtalis.

Edit: 5000 Sirts Vs 750 Scythes. All Scythes die (40k pts), but they take with them 1600 Sirts (50k pts).
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Unread 3 Apr 2004, 13:35   #3
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

The subverting idea in itself is good. The problem is that there are too little ships for it to be of any use, and since most ships don't target their own class, it's very easy to send fleets against Zikonians that are completely immune to them (hello Elaphe/Viperidae) - in a worst-case scenario, they'll get subverted. And be safe from any other defenders that can kill them.

The problem with Scythes isn't that they're not effective - but that you need them to attack with. Or you'll just be inviting any Xandrathii in the game to send some Elaphe's and kill your frigates without fear.
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Unread 3 Apr 2004, 13:50   #4
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
The subverting idea in itself is good.
I thought it was just a cheap way of avoiding the whole pod-farming / reporting mess :)
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Unread 3 Apr 2004, 15:22   #5
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

It'd have worked better if each ship had more targets. As it is, it is just a cruddy version of EMP in most cases.

I still think a T2 should have been added to all ships, but it should have been 50% less effective or something. That'd have made subverting a much better idea.
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Unread 3 Apr 2004, 15:38   #6
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

They should have ADDED a pod and constructionkiller, instead of converting existing ships. 6 ships (assuming no t2 ofc) just doesn't cut it, 8 might (not too sure about that either btw).
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Unread 9 Apr 2004, 12:36   #7
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Yes, there are Claymores, but they're so expensive, and for an added bonus, they have Subverting "powah" too. Fantastic.
notice the initiative 1. If you're a zik, under attack by a terran... With just rapiers, you're in trouble, especially if it's a bigger terran, as your fr take terrible losses before they shoot (ie I had 550 rapiers, and was under attack by over 1k medusas and 500 incs...). Your clays sub the medusas, reducing the zik's casualties, and increasing the terran's casualties. Same goes for being attacked by other ziks. Terrans either send w/ medusas, and take losses to their own guns. Or leave the medusas out, and allow their incubi to be shot down by rapiers. Works pretty well IMO!
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Unread 9 Apr 2004, 15:33   #8
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

I like Zik.

It has big positives if u are skilled enough to play it correctly. Same as always.

Just set a fleet up to attack a certain race. (i take on zik/ter in the main)
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Unread 9 Apr 2004, 16:15   #9
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

tbh, any zik without claymores is easy fodder for a decent sized terran with enough medusas....add the claymores and its still not a "no go" but its more of an incentive to find another target where less losses are likely..
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Unread 9 Apr 2004, 16:52   #10
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
I like Zik.

It has big positives if u are skilled enough to play it correctly. Same as always.

Just set a fleet up to attack a certain race. (i take on zik/ter in the main)

They're great for attacking yes.
But for defence, they're shocking.
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Unread 10 Apr 2004, 13:23   #11
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
They're great for attacking yes.
But for defence, they're shocking.
scythe is nice against attacking fi (except the cathaar fi, but cathaar ahs no fi pods anyways), claymore rocks against BS, Gladious aint bad against BS, and broadsword converts cruisers decently. Ofc it's a problem they don't kill (except scythe > sirtalis, claymore > medusa/rapier, gladious > terran BS, broadsword >xan CR), but that's a downside you choose for if you pick the race, like you know xan's armour sucks or cathaar than cannot kill 2 shipclasses.
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Unread 10 Apr 2004, 19:38   #12
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xtothez
The Scythe is more effective than it looks. Run a battlecalc of it vs. some Sirtalis.

Edit: 5000 Sirts Vs 750 Scythes. All Scythes die (40k pts), but they take with them 1600 Sirts (50k pts).
Scythes rock on both defence and anti-defence. Being xand I curse them regularly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xtothez
I thought it was just a cheap way of avoiding the whole pod-farming / reporting mess
I loved being able to steal pods in R9. I had CO, FR and DE roiding fleets and could pretty much hit anything, size-permitting. It's a shame that cheats took away this fantastic feature from the genuine players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
It'd have worked better if each ship had more targets. As it is, it is just a cruddy version of EMP in most cases.

I still think a T2 should have been added to all ships, but it should have been 50% less effective or something. That'd have made subverting a much better idea.
Roll on round 11.
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Unread 11 Apr 2004, 10:27   #13
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

I am (also) of the opinion that subverting is a great idea that was just poorly implemented with these stats (tbh, what isnt poor about these stats?). An (imo) good example of where subversion would be great fun is with these stats: http://home.iprimus.com.au/rourkek/Production60.html , where available targets and targeitng classes are numerous enough to make it matter what you stun.

methinks these stats are cool :\
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Unread 11 Apr 2004, 10:35   #14
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I am (also) of the opinion that subverting is a great idea that was just poorly implemented with these stats (tbh, what isnt poor about these stats?). An (imo) good example of where subversion would be great fun is with these stats: http://home.iprimus.com.au/rourkek/Production60.html , where available targets and targeitng classes are numerous enough to make it matter what you stun.

methinks these stats are cool :\

10 shipstats.... You wanna scare off the last non-hardcore players? Go showoff your lovebaby in other topics where they are less offtopic
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Unread 11 Apr 2004, 10:44   #15
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Do you ever post without showing us the URL for your latest stats creation?
Production 60?!

I'd have thought that the obvious fact your other 59 productions have been ignored would be an indication that your stats aren't that great...
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Unread 11 Apr 2004, 10:58   #16
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Do you ever post without showing us the URL for your latest stats creation?
Yes.

Quote:
I'd have thought that the obvious fact your other 59 productions have been ignored would be an indication that your stats aren't that great...
Well, spinner actually said to me that it was alot more because he was being a bastard than my stats being bad. Karm had suggested that i throw my stats at R11 and they might be used.
as i am a cynnical person, methinks he just needs time to say 'no' in an original way, but it cant hurt to try.

plus, what's wrong with them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by General Martok
10 shipstats.... You wanna scare off the last non-hardcore players?
non-hardcore players? humpf, i thought they all died off in R8 :\ (or even earlier).
and 10 classes is bad because...? :P
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Unread 11 Apr 2004, 12:12   #17
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
non-hardcore players? humpf, i thought they all died off in R8 :\ (or even earlier).
and 10 classes is bad because...? :P
Noncense, only a few hundred "real" die hard players around every round, the rest is more "average" than hard-core. Even now only 600 or so planets have 600k score/value, so go figure.
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Unread 11 Apr 2004, 13:47   #18
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

Ultimate Newbie, I very much like you stats, however I agree that there are too many ship classes. This would be a nightmare even for hardcore players. Can you see the defense calls in alliance channels already?

Defense needed, Anti-Fi, Anti-BC, Anti-CR ETA 7, Anti-FR, Anti-LC, ETA 8 and Anti-BO ETA 9

I fully agree we need more ship classes than the current four, and that we need more ships as well, but increasing ship classes to ten is overdoing it. I'd be curious to see your stats in an incarnation with just the Fighter, Corvette, Frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser and Battleship, though.
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Unread 11 Apr 2004, 16:23   #19
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

youd need another 2 fleet slots or so with 10 shipclasses not that we need more now anyway
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Unread 11 Apr 2004, 22:22   #20
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

Pffft, I could do cooler names than those I mean... Emu? Penguin > your names

I reckon it should go Fi, Fr, De, Cr, Bs personally... That way you have more than now but not TOO many. IMO!
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Unread 12 Apr 2004, 10:26   #21
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

There is a fine line between game depth for experienced players and accessibility for new players. Of sorts the research system tries to assist with this, tantilising players with a new class of ship every so often, but nevertheless striking a balance for all is difficult.

Perhaps (off topic, I know) one should consider full hull research or multiple targetting as a payment perk?
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Unread 12 Apr 2004, 11:14   #22
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

Not a bad idea. Or make some races with triple targetting ships (or ships with T2 all) and other races with much better single targetting ships.
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Unread 12 Apr 2004, 16:22   #23
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Ultimate Newbie, I very much like you stats, however I agree that there are too many ship classes. This would be a nightmare even for hardcore players. Can you see the defense calls in alliance channels already?

Defense needed, Anti-Fi, Anti-BC, Anti-CR ETA 7, Anti-FR, Anti-LC, ETA 8 and Anti-BO ETA 9
I must be wierd, because i think that's quite funny and should lead to an interesting round

Quote:
I fully agree we need more ship classes than the current four, and that we need more ships as well, but increasing ship classes to ten is overdoing it. I'd be curious to see your stats in an incarnation with just the Fighter, Corvette, Frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser and Battleship, though.
http://home.iprimus.com.au/rourkek/Production48.html methinks is the last version i had with 12 ships and 6 classes per race. not sure though, i cant really remember the nuumbers anymore :\
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Unread 12 Apr 2004, 16:24   #24
Ultimate Newbie
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Re: Which bright spark thought up this ship?

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Originally Posted by Shaithess
Pffft, I could do cooler names than those I mean... Emu? Penguin > your names
lol!
oi!, i was lacking inspiration, so i started thinking of aussie birds - like Kookaburras, Emus, galahs, (magpies?!) and Kingifhsers

besides, thers is an Emperor Penguin
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