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General Geiger · 20 Mar 2003, 14:23

On a point of interest, it does look like the fight for Baghdad is going to be a battle worthy of naming. And maybe Tikrit as well. That's unless they want many, many dead civvies. This'll be a short war, but interesting from a strategic point of view. There's a distinct possibility that Baghdad may end up like a scaled-down Stalingrad. But it's still beyond me why Saddam is preventing the eighty-thousand-strong Republican Guard from entering the city itself (only the elite Special Republican Guard are permitted into the city). Surely he (Saddam) wants to withdraw as much of his loyal forces as possible to the city itself, so as to put up as much of a fight as he can before going down?

I have absurd images of - if he hasn't been killed by these initial airstrikes, of course - of him walking out of the rubble of a command building into the firing sights of dozens of US marines, cigar in mouth, covered in bullet-proof armour and spraying machine-gun fire from double-uzis everywhere.

ChubbyChecker · 20 Mar 2003, 14:26

Hopefully the Iraqi army will experience mass desertions before anything too bloody happens.

I think comparing it to Stalingrad is going into the realms of fantasy

Nusselt · 20 Mar 2003, 14:29

for some reason these i found these slighlty geeky pics amusing

american

tally ho what?

General Geiger · 20 Mar 2003, 14:35

Quote:

Originally posted by ChubbyChecker
Hopefully the Iraqi army will experience mass desertions before anything too bloody happens.

I think comparing it to Stalingrad is going into the realms of fantasy

I don't know. You're right about mass desertions, especially of the regular soldiers, but the Republican Guard will be much harder to subdue; you can expect a lot of fighting with them. The Special Republican Guard will fight to the last. They depend on Saddam's leadership, as they are the instigators of his repression of the people. Many would be ripped to pieces by their own countrymen if Saddam was overthrown.

The SRG are twenty thousand strong, and all are in Baghdad. There will be one hell of a battle to root out all of them. Plus, Saddam has chemical and maybe biological stockpiles still hidden. You must remember that he's doing his damndest to make sure he takes down as much as possible in his own demise - scorched earth, aka Kuwait. His fortifying tactics are evidence of this. Spread out, his air defence systems would be useless; but in a single massive hornet's nest in Baghdad they're formidable.

I know how easy it is to say that the Iraqi regime will simply fall to pieces, and large parts of it surely will. But there's enough loyal fighters left, in areas where the sheer number of civilians defend them from air bombardment, that I think there are going to be many times the American and British casualties of the last Gulf War. Maybe even thousands.

Gayle29uk · 20 Mar 2003, 14:40

Quote:

Originally posted by General Geiger
I don't know. You're right about mass desertions, especially of the regular soldiers, but the Republican Guard will be much harder to subdue; you can expect a lot of fighting with them. The Special Republican Guard will fight to the last. They depend on Saddam's leadership, as they are the instigators of his repression of the people. Many would be ripped to pieces by their own countrymen if Saddam was overthrown.

Quote:

Remember how it started, they kept talking about 'the Elite Republican Guard' in these hushed tones like these guys were the bogeymen or something. Yeah, we're doing well now, but we have yet to face-THE ELITE REPUBLICAN GUARD. Like these guys were twelve feet tall, desert warriors. KRRASH. NEVER LOST A BATTLE! KRRASH. WE **** BULLETS! Yeah, well, after two months of continuous carpet bombings and not one reaction at all from them, they became simply, 'the Republican Guard.' Not nearly as elite as we may have led you to believe. And after another month of bombing, they went from 'the Elite Republican Guard' to 'the Republican Guard' to 'the Republicans made this **** up about there being guards out there'. We hope you enjoyed your fireworks show. It was so pretty, and it took our mind off of domestic issues! The Persian Gulf distraction.
Bill Hicks

Radical Edward · 20 Mar 2003, 14:46

ace quote there.

General Geiger · 20 Mar 2003, 15:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Gayle29uk

With the "Hicks" quote. Certainly the SRG are simply regular people who'd rather not die. The point I'm making is that, as they're the people who have instigated Saddam's reign of legalised murder and torture, when Saddam falls any survivors of the SRG are likely to be lynched or otherwise brutally murdered by their own countrymen. Of course they know they can't win; but it's a case of either go down fighting or be found swinging from a lamp post. Which would you go for in their position?

Amusing quote, though.

ChubbyChecker · 20 Mar 2003, 15:08

Obviously this is going to be a very different affair from the first Gulf War. Back then we hardly pushed into Iraq at all and the Iraqi troops simply ran away. Those who didn't flee to the safety of Baghdad simply gave up when they came up against allied troops.

There's nothing more dangerous than a cornered animal, and we haven't seen what happens when the Iraqi army has nowhere left to run to. Personally I think it will be a walkover but nobody knows for sure.

All we can do is hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

Radical Edward · 20 Mar 2003, 15:11

It's kind of like star wars isn't it? The crimson guard looked cool and all, but when the emperor was being flung into a pit, where were they then?

General Geiger · 20 Mar 2003, 15:30

Quote:

Originally posted by ChubbyChecker
Obviously this is going to be a very different affair from the first Gulf War. Back then we hardly pushed into Iraq at all and the Iraqi troops simply ran away. Those who didn't flee to the safety of Baghdad simply gave up when they came up against allied troops.

There's nothing more dangerous than a cornered animal, and we haven't seen what happens when the Iraqi army has nowhere left to run to. Personally I think it will be a walkover but nobody knows for sure.

All we can do is hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

Your point is valid, though I feel needs a little alteration. The vast majority of the Iraqi army has the option of simply surrendering to American or British forces; it's not cornered in this respect. The SRG, though, as I've indicated, faces death in every direction. A better way of putting it would be that Saddam is like a cornered animal, and the SRG are cornered with him. Those who don't face death if they surrender are not cornered. For those who do, it's a matter of how do they want to die? The answer for almost anyone in that situation would be in combat, I'm fairly sure.

General Geiger · 20 Mar 2003, 15:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Radical Edward
It's kind of like star wars isn't it? The crimson guard looked cool and all, but when the emperor was being flung into a pit, where were they then?

lol.

Tactitus · 20 Mar 2003, 15:36

Quote:

Originally posted by General Geiger
But it's still beyond me why Saddam is preventing the eighty-thousand-strong Republican Guard from entering the city itself (only the elite Special Republican Guard are permitted into the city). Surely he (Saddam) wants to withdraw as much of his loyal forces as possible to the city itself, so as to put up as much of a fight as he can before going down?

I've wondered about that too. Either he doesn't intend to fight for Baghdad or else he wasn't sufficiently confident of their loyalty (and/or the loyalty of their commanders) to have them in the capital ahead of time.

If Saddam thinks he can move/retreat large numbers of troops to the capital now that the shooting has started, the coalition air forces may have something to say about that.

General Geiger · 20 Mar 2003, 15:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Tactitus
I've wondered about that too. Either he doesn't intend to fight for Baghdad or else he wasn't sufficiently confident of their loyalty (and/or the loyalty of their commanders) to have them in the capital ahead of time.

If Saddam thinks he can move/retreat large numbers of troops to the capital now that the shooting has started, the coalition air forces may have something to say about that.

If he isn't dead. Anything's on the cards right now. We don't even know whether Saddam is alive anymore, as per the airstrikes early this morning. No one knows anything. It's all confusion.

*gets drunk*

Radical Edward · 20 Mar 2003, 15:45

Quote:

Originally posted by General Geiger

*gets drunk*

I like that plan, and will drink to it at once!

Radical Edward · 20 Mar 2003, 15:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Tactitus
I've wondered about that too. Either he doesn't intend to fight for Baghdad or else he wasn't sufficiently confident of their loyalty (and/or the loyalty of their commanders) to have them in the capital ahead of time.

iirc, that is exactly it. Saddam has alot of people who don't like him, and he has manages to stay where he is with a significant dose of paranoia.

General Geiger · 20 Mar 2003, 15:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Radical Edward
iirc, that is exactly it. Saddam has alot of people who don't like him, and he has manages to stay where he is with a significant dose of paranoia.

What does iirc stand for?

Proteus · 20 Mar 2003, 16:01

Quote:

Originally posted by General Geiger
What does iirc stand for?

If I Recall Correctly

Rids · 20 Mar 2003, 16:54

Why battle for it? Just flatten it.

Sub · 20 Mar 2003, 17:12

That may work if we just forget about the 8 million civilians there...

20 Mar 2003, 17:26

thank you General for your entertainement, I always love peoples like you over exagerating stuffs for my imagination.

Since we all know that today, war are won by bombs and sniper that will shoot republican guard 1mile away and with some laser glass that can see thru walls where the soldiers are hidden.

ChubbyChecker · 20 Mar 2003, 17:28

Quote:

Originally posted by [7]Gunn3r
Since we all know that today, war are won by bombs and sniper that will shoot republican guard 1mile away and with some laser glass that can see thru walls where the soldiers are hidden.

Bombs aren't very useful if you're trying to attack troops in a city who are surrounded by civilians.

And as for snipers, it would take a bloody long time for snipers to take out all the republican guard! I can't imagine they even have enough sniper rifle bullets for that kind of mass slaughter.