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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 11:43   #1
Tomkat
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Political Correctness

I was told yesterday by someone on my course that apparently, in primary school (ages 3-11), teachers are no longer allowed to sing "Baa Baa Black Sheep" with their pupils. On the grounds that it's using the word Black.

So now the rhyme goes:

Baa baa white sheep
Have you any wool?
Yes sir, yes sir,
Three bags full

One for the master
And one for the maid
And one for the little boy
Who lives down the lane


How ****ing stupid.

It's not racist.
It's a ****ing sheep, who cares what colour it is?
All this hype about political correctness just increases the awareness of difference between whites and blacks.
Surely making the sheep white implies that a black sheep is "bad" ?
I bet it was a white person who changed the rhyme.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 11:48   #2
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Re: Political Correctness

isnt it just as racist now?
still defining the sheep by its colour after all

shouldnt it be 'bah bah bah sheep' to avoid all referrence to anything that might be considered defining it by anything other than its sheepness
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 11:50   #3
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Re: Political Correctness

When I worked for Currys about 3 years ago we had a training session on racial awareness.
Black and White coffee had to become Coffee with or without milk.

Stupid people sue over stupid things. Wasn't there a law to do with the Stephen Lawrence case that if a victim thinks it was racist then it is racist?
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 12:04   #4
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Re: Political Correctness

You can't put a 'black mark' next to someone's name.

What a load of ****ing bollocks.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 12:32   #5
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
When I worked for Currys about 3 years ago we had a training session on racial awareness.
Black and White coffee had to become Coffee with or without milk.

Stupid people sue over stupid things. Wasn't there a law to do with the Stephen Lawrence case that if a victim thinks it was racist then it is racist?
Discrimiation etc. are generally said to be related to reaction rather than intent i.e. if someone finds something offensive, then it "is".
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 12:49   #6
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Re: Political Correctness

yes, but, by saying and adopting this poilcy, you are criminalising nearly everyone. Which is why i have refused to stop using any phrase i damn well feel like. I mean christ, we were even told that we werent allowed to use the phrase 'nitty-gritty' at work, due to the fact that it might offend people who are descended from slaves. I mean come on seriously, WTF?
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 13:32   #7
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
This thread is utterly shite.

I can't even be arsed to get enagged in deconstructing the utter retardednes of people whining about political correctness as if it means anything at all. That argument is over 10 years old and you are bringing it up now to waste everyones time, yet do any of you take the time to actually look at the situation with regards to racial discrimination in this country.
Idiots.
What?
Maybe I misunderstood (I did read it twice however, either your english is bad or you're being deliberately ambiguous in avoiding telling us why we're "utterly retarded) but are you saying that we're wrong in thinking that this correctness is way over the top?

Or simply just saying "old", but using more words?

What situation with regards to racial discrimination? I started the thread with the argument "What possible relation can singing nursery rhymes have with racism?", yet you're willing to take me up on the argument, and claim that singing "baa baa black sheep" is the first step to becoming a fully-pledged Nazi?

Don't insult people unless you're willing to back up your opinion. Please, deconstruct our utter retardness. I'm dying to hear what your opinion is.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 13:41   #8
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Re: Political Correctness

what toccata & fugue said, also lots of these 'PC' myths are just that - myths. total bollocks. my 6 year old niece sings baa baa black sheep at school where they also use a blackboard.

also, in my experience it seems that people who go on about 'politcal correctness gone mad' are utter spastics.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 13:47   #9
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
What situation with regards to racial discrimination? I started the thread with the argument "What possible relation can singing nursery rhymes have with racism?", yet you're willing to take me up on the argument, and claim that singing "baa baa black sheep" is the first step to becoming a fully-pledged Nazi?
You are a master of miscomprehension.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 14:23   #10
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
This thread is utterly shite.

I can't even be arsed to get enagged in deconstructing the utter retardednes of people whining about political correctness as if it means anything at all. That argument is over 10 years old and you are bringing it up now to waste everyones time, yet do any of you take the time to actually look at the situation with regards to racial discrimination in this country.
Idiots.
although generally your posts are good and nice to read/ well thought out etc

i feel that this one lets you down, at least put some kind of qualifier into your post so that someone with the opposite view can rebutt it



otherwise you become no better than QDS
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 14:39   #11
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_dastardley_chihuahua
what toccata & fugue said, also lots of these 'PC' myths are just that - myths. total bollocks. my 6 year old niece sings baa baa black sheep at school where they also use a blackboard.
And why wouldn't she use a blackboard? There was only an inquiry into changing the terminology to "chalkboard", it never went through.

I didn't "hear this on the grapevine". This was in a discussion between prospective teachers about what we're allowed and not allowed to do. Just because your 6 year old niece does it, doesn't mean it's allowed. The school just might not bother adhering to it.

For example, did you know a teacher is not allowed to say "shut up" to a pupil. Yet a lot of teachers do. Just because some schools do sing baa baa black sheep, doesn't mean it's "allowed", as such.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL
You are a master of miscomprehension.
A valuable contribution to the thread as always Mark.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 14:52   #12
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
When I worked for Currys about 3 years ago we had a training session on racial awareness.
Black and White coffee had to become Coffee with or without milk.

Stupid people sue over stupid things. Wasn't there a law to do with the Stephen Lawrence case that if a victim thinks it was racist then it is racist?
lol, that's retarted. It's not like people are saying ****** coffee and white trash coffee.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 14:54   #13
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
A valuable contribution to the thread as always Mark.
Indeed, the last thing GD needs is actual posts commenting on arguments made in threads.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 14:55   #14
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Indeed, the last thing GD needs is actual posts commenting on arguments made in threads.
It's about as useful (and contributes as highly) as the kids shouting "fight, fight, fight!" in the playground.

Or MPs cheering like yobs in Parliament when one of their members makes a cutting point towards the other party.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 14:58   #15
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
lol, that's retarted. It's not like people are saying ****** coffee and white trash coffee.
On the basis that if I'm getting coffee for people then they're probably my friends, I'd ask if people wanted "coffee that's really dark brown in colour as there's no milk in it - a bit like you Derrek; or coffee that's trying to be bling but is way too milky to be taken seriously".
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 15:02   #16
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
It's about as useful (and contributes as highly) as the kids shouting "fight, fight, fight!" in the playground.

Or MPs cheering like yobs in Parliament when one of their members makes a cutting point towards the other party.
I was telling you that you had misunderstood his point. Maybe in your world that's not related to a discussion, but in the one 'Sense' inhabits, it is.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 15:14   #17
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Re: Political Correctness

Apparently there is going to be a version of politically correct race neutral version of chess coming out in the shops very shortly

true story
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 16:32   #18
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Since Roadrunner asked and I have nothing better to do I shall lower myself to this thread.

It’s very simple. Every since people started asking to be treated fairly there have been people trying to say that, "of course we should treat people fairly but it has gone to far the other way." So rather than say, 'well I have observed the changes in our multi-ethnic, multi-cultural society and feel that on balance looking at wage levels, and opportunities, there is something to say on the matter' instead people come up with the most retarded example ever when one time (if at all) someone changed the words of a song in case its underlying message was slightly racist. No one presents any evidence of this, and no one takes it further and tries to claim that there is no racism in this country because they know they would be wrong. So what this thread is saying is that there is some sort of issue when there isn't, yet everyone nods sagely and goes 'yes this is bad thing'.
Yeah I agree, people extrapolating anecdotal examples backed with no real evidence into ridiculous claims about the overarching structure of society as a whole, is a bit silly.



Quote:

Now the real issue is that we live in a racist society as well as a society with a lot of racists in it. Black people, foreigners and people who are different are challenged for their lack of conformity in all walks of life and in particular the job market. So I hear stories saying 'my sister went for a job and they gave it to a black person, so clearly that was racial discrimination, cos we know all black people are useless thieves.' That last bit is of course implied. Or, 'we gave these black people a bunch of stuff and they are still poor, they must all be wasters.'

So what underlies this thread is merely part of the Conservative and Rightwing backlash against people who find racial discrimination to be intolerable and who have noticed how it is endemic in our society and in our language. This gets repeated until people assume that this whole freedom and equality thing has gone too far and its time we trod on the black people again, they've been getting above themselves.
This is a bad thing indeed.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 17:41   #19
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Since Roadrunner asked and I have nothing better to do I shall lower myself to this thread [. . .]
You'll forgive me for being dense, but whilst I agree in general with most of the evidence I'm not sure I agree with the case as a whole. In my experience, it does indeed tend to be those masking hidden (or, complying with unrecognised) racial prejudices within them that speak out against political correctness, with them often presenting the same tired old urban myths of the variety and reliability that (for example) anti-litigationists will use when complaining of the "compensation culture". However, this doesn't seem to be an urban myth, more a direct example of overt (and, I'm sure you'll agree, this is taking things too far) political correctness as experienced first-hand by Tomkat. Your argument against weak anecdotal evidence doesn't seem to apply. If indeed the example is true and was understood correctly, don't you think it is an example of political correctness that's gone a little bit over the line of good sense? I wholeheatedly agree that these debates distract us from the more important issues of equality of society and oppurtunity, but this thread isn't about either, nor (so far as I can tell) was it intended to be.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 18:00   #20
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Re: Political Correctness

duck, duck, gray duck!

(or as i play, 'duck, duck, backbiting man****er!')
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 18:12   #21
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Exclamation Re: Political Correctness

Errm, the Baa Baa Black Sheep thing was a semi-mythical example of the actions of 'Looney Left' councils in the 80's/early 90's, IIRC. So it's a bit old, and in any case - like most of these things - untrue anyway.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 18:39   #22
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Tomkat even said the classic "I'm not racist". It is just sad.
Where did I say that? I said "It's not racist", as in the rhyme. I am slightly racist actually, but not to the point where I'd want to offend anyone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by T+F
If indeed the example is true, it is an example of someone changing a song without any good reason, it is not an example of political correctness doing anything as political correctness is an absrtract concept and thus not capable of action.
So your entire rant is simply because I used the wrong terms when describing what I thought of it? Sorry then, if political correctness is the wrong term then I apologise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by T+F
The example though was from someone on Tomkats course who apparently converses with 4 year olds who have opinions on the racial implications of songs. So we are talking about 3rd had information here ultimately from a 4 year old.
What on earth? Did you even read my first post? That's 2 gross errors you've made from it. My friend didn't get it from some 4 year old. She's training to be a teacher, as am I, and observed it in our week's primary school experience before we started the course.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 18:45   #23
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
lol, that's retarted. It's not like people are saying ****** coffee and white trash coffee.
Why has someone banned the word F I L T E R ?

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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 19:02   #24
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I didn't "hear this on the grapevine". This was in a discussion between prospective teachers about what we're allowed and not allowed to do.
Er, dude that's the definition of the grape vine. If you said "At my teacher training course we received an official memorandum from the Department of Education which stated..." then it'd be different. This was a comment from a colleague, as I understand. You've not posted any links (I think) to validate this. It may be true. It may not. This is the problem with this kind of evidence. It's unverified. And as Manson says, as old as the hills.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 19:23   #25
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Re: Political Correctness

I was told yesterday also (by my sister) that it now goes "Baa, baa wooley sheep".
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 19:51   #26
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
However the point is that the broader issue of treating people with respect gets dragged down by this hackneyed story, and it is dredged up repeatedly as if it was a piece of kean eyed social observation, when it is of course akin to the tired prenunciations one would expect of Richard Littlejohn. In other words its a disgrace that this still gets trundled out, like the way that if someone stabs someone and the stabber happens to be an immigrant it will make the fron 3 pages of the Mail and/or Express..
Why would anyone need to make up examples? It's currently a fact that saying certain words out loud, or believing there is a right to associate with whom you please, will result in state-initiated force against your person - I'm not sure how any specific anecdotes could make the present situation any worse. Having childrens songs censored would be a drop in the ocean when compared to the larger scale violence being committed in order to bring society into line with the ideologies of certain groups.

Last edited by Nodrog; 8 Dec 2004 at 19:56.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 19:56   #27
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
It's currently a fact that saying certain words out loud
The problem is that the facts "known" about what you're allowed to do aren't actually facts. That's why it's important that people are making things up. People say "LOL, teachers are banned from saying blackboard" and then other people think that there really is a law against it, and that people could go to prison if they say blackboard or similar.

Now, the laws restricting free speech in this country are awful, but let's focus on real cases with cited evidence rather than relying on second accounts of what people read in Richard Littlejohn's column in The Sun.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 21:14   #28
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Re: Political Correctness

Either something is racist or its not, because of the way it's meant.

Political correctness isn't necessary.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 21:43   #29
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Re: Political Correctness

I simply don't understand.

If there is substance to Tomkat's post (in that the words to the rhyme have been or will be altered), I cannot understand the negative reaction to it.
Noone can deny that these alterations have been considered/made due to the rhyme being deemed racist; yet we can all agree that any reasonable person (let alone any child) does not interpret 'Baa Baa Black Sheep' in this manner. It follows that bewilderment at these changes is not a result of a negative or covertly racist mindset ('this whole freedom and equality thing has gone too far and its time we trod on the black people again'), but rather because they are an example of unneccesary intervention and regulation that has no desirable effect whatsoever.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 21:48   #30
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Re: Political Correctness

Surely people should be happy the black sheep is being productive and producing three bags of wool and not simply scrounging off the state?
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 21:55   #31
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
If there is substance to Tomkat's post (in that the words to the rhyme have been or will be altered), I cannot understand the negative reaction to it.
The issue is that the context these comments stem from. For instance, you say "unnecessary intervention and regulation". Intervention by whom? Regulation on what?

1. Do we believe that there is a law which says explicitly you can't say "ba ba black sheep". No, we don't. (Feel free to cite something if this is wrong)

2. Do we believe there is some sort of legal precedent / court ruling which might mean that schools are fearful of being sued so instruct their teachers to change the lyrics? Probably not.

3. Do we believe that the Department of Education centrally decided to issue an instruction to change the lyrics? Again, I'd say no.

4. Do we think that teachers are officially instructed as a set policy to not use terms like "black board" or "black sheep", etc? Maybe, but there's been no evidence supplied to that effect.

So what are we saying exactly? That probably on one ocassion some overly sensitive teacher trainer (or department head) in an isolated school/college wrote an email which said "Hey guys, maybe we shouldn't use these words anymore". This then get circulated around the world, repeated mindlessly ad nausea (especially by the papers) and then people say "God damnit, this country - you can't even say xyz anymore!" when that isn't the case at all. There is no centralised conspiracy as far as I can see, if you've got evidence to the contracy please let us know.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 22:14   #32
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Re: Political Correctness

You are denying that Political Correctness exists? Or simply denying that some kind of conspiracy exists?

If the former is true, try this.

If the latter, then may I point out that I did not claim that there was.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 22:29   #33
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Re: Political Correctness

I'm saying that merely saying "political correctness exists" is meaningless without more information. PC by whom? Me? You? The government? The courts? If you've got something specific, then fine. We can debate the Race Relations Act if you like.

But arguing against vague hearsay is ridiculous.

So I ask again, what exactly are we saying? That there are probably too many sensitive people out there? Well, as someone who uses the words ni**er and faggot about a hundred times a day, and who has political views dubbed either disgusting, extreme or ridiculous I could have told you that. But trying to imply that it's something wider - "the creping dictatorship of the left" (sic) - from that website - is stupid, unless we're saying something more specific.
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Unread 8 Dec 2004, 22:36   #34
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
what exactly are we saying? That there are probably too many sensitive people out there?
Yes, I believe that's the point he and others who complain about the PC-police (I'm one of them - the moaners, not the police) are trying to make - that people are over-sensitive and go too far.
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Unread 9 Dec 2004, 00:45   #35
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Re: Political Correctness

the ryme is obviously racist and favours sheep over other animals

WHAT ABOUT ALL THE OTHER FARMYARD ANIMALS?!?!?!?!?!?!?
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Unread 9 Dec 2004, 00:55   #36
Knight Theamion
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Re: Political Correctness

do as i do, don't call them blacks.

call them cottonboys.
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Unread 9 Dec 2004, 02:22   #37
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Re: Political Correctness

some of my best friends are black
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Unread 9 Dec 2004, 02:34   #38
queball
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Re: Political Correctness

Brrrrbrrrrbrrrrputputputputputneeeeeeeeooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrbooom
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Unread 9 Dec 2004, 11:00   #39
sayonara
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
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Unread 9 Dec 2004, 12:06   #40
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
some of my best friends are black
http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/
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Unread 10 Dec 2004, 00:03   #41
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Re: Political Correctness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat


always funny :up:
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