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Unread 4 Jan 2015, 11:17   #151
isildurx
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I don't think a DE setup is a good way to go as an alliance strat, but for a solo planet I think it is a strong defensive backbone to your planet. Yes FR teamups by multiple planets can roid your DE planet, but that's true for pretty much any teamup.

Even if a DE combo isn't great alliances still have FI, CO, FR, CR and BS which can all be played succesfully.

I'm still waiting for all you guys' great suggestions* on how you would improve the zik DE, I'm all ears. Appoco is currently looking at the stats, so maybe he's making some chages, I dunno.


*And no, starting over isn't an option b-butcher, so if you don't have any constructive feedback to come forth with then I suggest you go improve your set of stats instead.
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Unread 4 Jan 2015, 11:30   #152
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
This is where you either dont understand the basics of what is good and what is bad in stats.
If NO DE FLEET COMBO TER/ZIK TER/TER ZIK/ZIK CANNOT WHATSOEVER STOP A XAN/ETD FR COMBO how can it be good defensively?

Everyone but you seem to have noticed this GIGANTIC flaw in these stats.
Its not better vs FI, CO, FR, DE or BS.
There's certain things that most people consider when looking at shipstats, that you chose to totally ignore.( like having most of your value in same shipclass)
As a result you get a very different opinion on things. This different opinion, that i'm trying to not call ignorance, is fine if you're using it to pick a shipstrat for your own ally, but I dont think it's a good idea to be so hostile in the forums or so loud to Appocomaster or hell, to say other people dont understand the basics.

This 'GIGANTIC flaw' that you're screaming about, is according to you, 1 roid fleet of 1 race that is crappy. So let's say nobody goes Zik DE, does that really ruin the round for you?

Oh and maybe just lower the D/C of Fireblades a bit, switch Thief to T1 Fi and T2 Co so it's more useful in teamup with Terran. Tho that kinda screws Terrans.
Maybe just Fireblade alone is enough, any bigger changes messes up other stuff.

Last edited by Shhhhhhh; 4 Jan 2015 at 11:34. Reason: suggestion on change
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Unread 4 Jan 2015, 11:56   #153
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I don't think a DE setup is a good way to go as an alliance strat, but for a solo planet I think it is a strong defensive backbone to your planet. Yes FR teamups by multiple planets can roid your DE planet, but that's true for pretty much any teamup.

Even if a DE combo isn't great alliances still have FI, CO, FR, CR and BS which can all be played succesfully.

I'm still waiting for all you guys' great suggestions* on how you would improve the zik DE, I'm all ears. Appoco is currently looking at the stats, so maybe he's making some chages, I dunno.


*And no, starting over isn't an option b-butcher, so if you don't have any constructive feedback to come forth with then I suggest you go improve your set of stats instead.
There is very very very few planets playing solo, this game was never intended to be based on playing solo.

If there is too few good options for allie strats, usualy the stats will be looking at it, after the round has passed, very bad stats.

This is why Tiamata often has been flamed for his stats, they might make sense if you match one race up to another, but looking at them overall they only opted for one race strat doable.

Ive allready suggested giving cath a DE roiding fleet, but seeing that you dont like the idea, it say it would be best to start over again if you were to make some stats that i would enjoy.

Ive also suggested rerunning either R46 or R51 stats iirc, they played out quite nicely
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Unread 4 Jan 2015, 11:58   #154
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
There's certain things that most people consider when looking at shipstats, that you chose to totally ignore.( like having most of your value in same shipclass)
As a result you get a very different opinion on things. This different opinion, that i'm trying to not call ignorance, is fine if you're using it to pick a shipstrat for your own ally, but I dont think it's a good idea to be so hostile in the forums or so loud to Appocomaster or hell, to say other people dont understand the basics.

This 'GIGANTIC flaw' that you're screaming about, is according to you, 1 roid fleet of 1 race that is crappy. So let's say nobody goes Zik DE, does that really ruin the round for you?

Oh and maybe just lower the D/C of Fireblades a bit, switch Thief to T1 Fi and T2 Co so it's more useful in teamup with Terran. Tho that kinda screws Terrans.
Maybe just Fireblade alone is enough, any bigger changes messes up other stuff.
CR zik cant stop FR either, team it up with cath, and you still got no in eta anti FR!
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Unread 4 Jan 2015, 12:11   #155
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post

Ive allready suggested giving cath a DE roiding fleet, but seeing that you dont like the idea, it say it would be best to start over again if you were to make some stats that i would enjoy.
I think this is your problem. I try to make stats that allow for different ways of playing, different fleet-setups for each race, fake-ability and an ability to both solo and to form good teamups. I don't have any particular race I want or don't want to play, therefore I'm free to make the stats any way I want. You obviously want to play cath, so you are always going to want to have stats that make cath a fun and possibly the best race to play.
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Unread 4 Jan 2015, 12:29   #156
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I think this is your problem. I try to make stats that allow for different ways of playing, different fleet-setups for each race, fake-ability and an ability to both solo and to form good teamups. I don't have any particular race I want or don't want to play, therefore I'm free to make the stats any way I want. You obviously want to play cath, so you are always going to want to have stats that make cath a fun and possibly the best race to play.
I enjoy playing a race within my allie strat, cath or not dosnt matter
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Unread 4 Jan 2015, 13:24   #157
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
CR zik cant stop FR either, team it up with cath, and you still got no in eta anti FR!
Xan FR can't stop Xan fi, team it up with ETD FR and you still got no in ETA anti FI!

( not sure what point you're trying to make here)
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Unread 4 Jan 2015, 13:37   #158
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Xan FR can't stop Xan fi, team it up with ETD FR and you still got no in ETA anti FI!

( not sure what point you're trying to make here)
Does FI/DE/BS got in eta anti FI?
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Unread 5 Jan 2015, 03:30   #159
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Zik De needs a good anti fi ship. cos atm De wont be able to land on a fr alliance as there's nothing to dampen xan banshee.
Also no sure what the philosophy of Zik Cr is, why are they having to build 3 ships?
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Unread 5 Jan 2015, 12:37   #160
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Kinda funny, shipstats changed in opposite direction, removing Cath De hitting Fi.
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Unread 5 Jan 2015, 20:18   #161
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

At the very least I'd change Thief to FI T1 and move the CO to the Clipper, as a bandaid fix. Not sure it would make (full) DE playable, but it would at least be something to differentiate Zik DE from Ter.
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Unread 6 Jan 2015, 01:56   #162
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Does it matter. There will be less than 10% people play zik this round anyway. Why fix it. we are going to have 30% xan 30% cath 25% etd this round and that's what will happen. Fr wasn't fixed and Xan Fi wasn't fixed. It's clear that this community will only ever thrive(for a given definition of thrive) in a set of stats where Xan is top dog.

If you wanted to "fix" Zik De you could and you would have already. However you clearly don't care about De so you might as well just remove it from the stats. Give zik its Co pod and give terran its Fi pod and move on. You would be better off.
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Unread 6 Jan 2015, 02:57   #163
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

all you'd need to do is make zik CR a beast cos its other roiding possible fleets are suck
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Unread 6 Jan 2015, 03:29   #164
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Does it matter. There will be less than 10% people play zik this round anyway. Why fix it. we are going to have 30% xan 30% cath 25% etd this round and that's what will happen. Fr wasn't fixed and Xan Fi wasn't fixed. It's clear that this community will only ever thrive(for a given definition of thrive) in a set of stats where Xan is top dog.

If you wanted to "fix" Zik De you could and you would have already. However you clearly don't care about De so you might as well just remove it from the stats. Give zik its Co pod and give terran its Fi pod and move on. You would be better off.
Well surely some will go for ETD/TER BS combo?
But i think you are pretty spot on, the stats are pointing to what u suggested in race combo for alliances.
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Unread 6 Jan 2015, 10:03   #165
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Btw, I had nothing to do with the changes being made the past week.
I obviously disagree that ter and zik are unplayable, so I guess we just have to wait and see.
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Unread 6 Jan 2015, 15:15   #166
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

People only define playable as being able to roid others unfortunately.

I like Zik DE it was a monster in def when Isil handed it in. Shame so many people think so one dimensionally about this game
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Unread 6 Jan 2015, 15:36   #167
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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People only define playable as being able to roid others unfortunately.

I like Zik DE it was a monster in def when Isil handed it in. Shame so many people think so one dimensionally about this game
What was the changes wich made zik less powerfull Kaiba?
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Unread 6 Jan 2015, 17:39   #168
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Looking at stats I don't think it is all that bad. DE was already unplayable for atking unless one was faking or roiding dead weights.

From what I could see:
-DE defense became a little worse

-FR offense and defense got a good boost but are not OP, just playable. But made it better the strategy of building 100% FR fleets.

-CR will suffer from FR becoming better both on offense and defense

-BS will suffer more than CR on the same matter.

-CO seems as good as, only now CATHs lost an awesome ship against FR.

-FI(Xan) is still good and imo became better with CATHs being weaker. Also I think it is the best choice in defense if many allies go FR although being probably weaker than in r56 against BS/CR allies.
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Unread 6 Jan 2015, 18:23   #169
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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People only define playable as being able to roid others unfortunately.
Not really. Value forting has been a staple of PA for 30+ rounds.
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Unread 6 Jan 2015, 18:59   #170
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
People only define playable as being able to roid others unfortunately.

I like Zik DE it was a monster in def when Isil handed it in. Shame so many people think so one dimensionally about this game
In what way was Zik De monster Def? sitting at 440's A/c and always firing last. fblade hits at ~~ 100% Defenders are hitting at 200% and if you dont think etd will have Fi pods you are sadly mistaken because the etd/xan fi/fr team is STUPID broken. You are hit by Ter Bs at ~~ 80% and fireback at about 85% but after they have shot you to shit 1st. Really your only saving grace is that Banshee's fire at you at t2 but then again you fire at them at t2. I mean hell even dealers are hitting you at 60% before you get to fire. So the way i look at it you are losing to every relevant fleet type how do you call zik MONSTER in def? I see it as unplayable. Atleast terran are sitting at 470 A/C and can drop most of those eff's by 20% and get salvage behind it so its not so bad. At this point i'd be shocked if there is more than 6% ziks just like r56.
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Unread 6 Jan 2015, 19:48   #171
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Just a heads up, you don't even have to build DE as zik...
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Unread 6 Jan 2015, 21:20   #172
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Just a heads up, in their current state, noone will!
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Unread 6 Jan 2015, 21:23   #173
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I don't have a problem with that, plenty of other roiding fleets out there to choose from. At least we're not having another round with less than 10% etd.
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Unread 7 Jan 2015, 00:00   #174
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I don't have a problem with that, plenty of other roiding fleets out there to choose from. At least we're not having another round with less than 10% etd.
Yeah, plenty!
What others has been whinig about, cloacked FI in masses wil be a welcomed sight!
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Unread 7 Jan 2015, 08:25   #175
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
In what way was Zik De monster Def? sitting at 440's A/c and always firing last. fblade hits at ~~ 100% Defenders are hitting at 200% and if you dont think etd will have Fi pods you are sadly mistaken because the etd/xan fi/fr team is STUPID broken. You are hit by Ter Bs at ~~ 80% and fireback at about 85% but after they have shot you to shit 1st. Really your only saving grace is that Banshee's fire at you at t2 but then again you fire at them at t2. I mean hell even dealers are hitting you at 60% before you get to fire. So the way i look at it you are losing to every relevant fleet type how do you call zik MONSTER in def? I see it as unplayable. Atleast terran are sitting at 470 A/C and can drop most of those eff's by 20% and get salvage behind it so its not so bad. At this point i'd be shocked if there is more than 6% ziks just like r56.
Simple reason.

No one is attacking with DE and you can 3 ship spam the same class to cover the rest. No one in this game lands for a value loss anymore so Zik DE will be a nightmare to land on
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Unread 7 Jan 2015, 08:39   #176
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I just can't even begin to parse you Kaiba. Just because no one builds it doesn't mean that people wont have anti De. There are enough De in mixed races to warrent building them. Besides any of the Fr/De targeting ships(defender/banshee/roach/guardian/Wyvern/dealers) will be build by just about every planet anyway since they cover Fr which is the 2nd best fleet in these stats only behind Xan fi.

IsilX Yes we won't have a round of less than 10% etd but we will have a round of less than 10% zik, and in my opinion that's one in the same. As a stats maker your job is to make a set of stats that allows for all options to be playable and you are outright saying that Zik De is bad and are unwilling to fix it. That's worse than me. When I made my sets of stats all ships had a point behind them at present the 3 zik De's serve no purpose into the stats except to never be build.
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Unread 7 Jan 2015, 09:06   #177
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
I just can't even begin to parse you Kaiba. Just because no one builds it doesn't mean that people wont have anti De. There are enough De in mixed races to warrent building them. Besides any of the Fr/De targeting ships(defender/banshee/roach/guardian/Wyvern/dealers) will be build by just about every planet anyway since they cover Fr which is the 2nd best fleet in these stats only behind Xan fi.

IsilX Yes we won't have a round of less than 10% etd but we will have a round of less than 10% zik, and in my opinion that's one in the same. As a stats maker your job is to make a set of stats that allows for all options to be playable and you are outright saying that Zik De is bad and are unwilling to fix it. That's worse than me. When I made my sets of stats all ships had a point behind them at present the 3 zik De's serve no purpose into the stats except to never be build.
Please be less moronic.

You and others have stated no one will be attacking with DE. That's fine I get that. What I'm saying is therefore you can take a punt as a Zik DE planet and just build DE ships covering you against the other 5 classes. You may not blow them out the water or even strike first but when you have 100% of your value in 1 class you become so hard to roid without the attacker taking significant losses. You could play purely def and init roids as a Corp planet and have a very easy round with a good ranking.

I would like to see a Zik/Ter DE gal which just sits on its roids both spamming a 3 ship build. The volume of attackers needed to land each wave would just make it a very non effiecent raid target.
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Unread 7 Jan 2015, 09:11   #178
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Agere, the fewer people who go de the berter for the few who do.
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Unread 7 Jan 2015, 17:37   #179
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Please be less moronic.

You and others have stated no one will be attacking with DE. That's fine I get that. What I'm saying is therefore you can take a punt as a Zik DE planet and just build DE ships covering you against the other 5 classes. You may not blow them out the water or even strike first but when you have 100% of your value in 1 class you become so hard to roid without the attacker taking significant losses. You could play purely def and init roids as a Corp planet and have a very easy round with a good ranking.

I would like to see a Zik/Ter DE gal which just sits on its roids both spamming a 3 ship build. The volume of attackers needed to land each wave would just make it a very non effiecent raid target.
Not sure the Zik adds much to the gal tho, all Terrans might be better.

But this discussion appart from that is a bit the problem with discussing shipstats in the forums, at some point you're not discussing balance, but teaching people more about the game, which could be against your own interest in future rounds.
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Unread 8 Jan 2015, 05:35   #180
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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I would like to see a Zik/Ter DE gal which just sits on its roids both spamming a 3 ship build. The volume of attackers needed to land each wave would just make it a very non effiecent raid target.
BS doesn't have much trouble solo landing on DE tbh, and while FI will have some issues early, 210% efficiency on Defender will make roiding/fleetcatching DE easy as **** (not even mentioning the 2 tick defense against it).
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Unread 8 Jan 2015, 06:45   #181
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I mean I'm fine playing a 5meta class round means one less ship that xans have to build to win. Now they just have a 3ship build and will be set. Where as every other race has to build 4-5 ships to be covered.
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Unread 8 Jan 2015, 07:44   #182
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

So you're gonna build Wraiths, broadswords and bombers then? Sounds like a great plan.
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Unread 8 Jan 2015, 09:53   #183
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

spectres instead of bombers
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Unread 8 Jan 2015, 11:56   #184
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Spanner will be so pleased.
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Unread 8 Jan 2015, 17:43   #185
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
I mean I'm fine playing a 5meta class round means one less ship that xans have to build to win. Now they just have a 3ship build and will be set. Where as every other race has to build 4-5 ships to be covered.
Except Ter and Zik DE which both cover 5 with 3 ships but have those 3 ships flanking each other too unlike Xan which has its 3 ships in different classes
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Unread 8 Jan 2015, 17:56   #186
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

If I was to play this round I would de fort.
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Unread 8 Jan 2015, 18:12   #187
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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If I was to play this round I would de fort.
This is to me pretty provoking.
I suspect that there is some secret organisation in here wich is here to try ruin the game with non-sense ideas on strategical choices, trying to cover up major flaws with the stats.

How ever you could prove me wrong with explaining why you would go for DE forts.
Unless you are building CR/BS, how would you stop Xan FR?
Mind that its cloacked aswell.
And if you are building CR/BS, wont that kind of screw up the only thing DE got going for itself to somehow be able to cover some of the FR incs, somehow accepting losses and trying to make the attackers by flacking enough so your higher inited drake/clippers will kill more than you lost?
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Unread 8 Jan 2015, 18:22   #188
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

How can a fr planet roid a terran de planet? You'd have to team up 3 or more planets prolly.
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Unread 8 Jan 2015, 18:55   #189
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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How can a fr planet roid a terran de planet? You'd have to team up 3 or more planets prolly.
Well thats pretty far off, one xan planet could perhaps be enough, two xan planets could certainly roid a equal size ter planet over two waves, sending one real and one fake.
No alliance would risk this strat, or even risk taking 50/50 losses hoping the attacker wont crash.
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Unread 8 Jan 2015, 19:01   #190
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post

Unless you are building CR/BS, how would you stop Xan FR?
With DE?

(the answer to all questions will be with DE, unless the question is how would you stop DE, then its with Harpies)
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Unread 8 Jan 2015, 19:37   #191
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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With DE?

(the answer to all questions will be with DE, unless the question is how would you stop DE, then its with Harpies)

Well you will have to put value into war Frigates/wyvs/pirates/rogue, lets say 30-40%, and you need to inits roids as you cant land too many attacks.
Its doable, but no one will go for that as a strat
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Unread 8 Jan 2015, 19:53   #192
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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No alliance would risk this strat, or even risk taking 50/50 losses hoping the attacker wont crash.
Ofcourse pure de isn't viable for a whole ally, but for a single planet or a buddypack I think it's a very good strategy to avoid incs.

I can easily see me getting a nice rank next round with cores, spamming mines and just building DE + wyvs if I bothered.
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Unread 8 Jan 2015, 20:02   #193
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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I suspect that there is some secret organisation in here wich is here to try ruin the game with non-sense ideas on strategical choices, trying to cover up major flaws with the stats.
You caught us.
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Unread 8 Jan 2015, 20:05   #194
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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You caught us.
Yeah ive suspected this for 10 rounds
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 01:48   #195
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Well you will have to put value into war Frigates/wyvs/pirates/rogue, lets say 30-40%, and you need to inits roids as you cant land too many attacks.
Its doable, but no one will go for that as a strat
Why would I??

You obviously have no concept of flak and the point of a pure DE planet. YOU ONLY HAVE TO BUILD DE!!!!!!
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 02:15   #196
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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This is to me pretty provoking.
I suspect that there is some secret organisation in here wich is here to try ruin the game with non-sense ideas on strategical choices, trying to cover up major flaws with the stats.

How ever you could prove me wrong with explaining why you would go for DE forts.
Unless you are building CR/BS, how would you stop Xan FR?
Mind that its cloacked aswell.
And if you are building CR/BS, wont that kind of screw up the only thing DE got going for itself to somehow be able to cover some of the FR incs, somehow accepting losses and trying to make the attackers by flacking enough so your higher inited drake/clippers will kill more than you lost?
You are aware of the concept of ship stacking / how the other de fleet types would act as flak (same class spam ships)
if You are playing for ally you would build hulls 1 anti de or if you are a fort player build wyvern.

You would make yourself hard to roid when you do get inc.

Tbh I prefered M0rph's stats to the current ones.
Im going to sit this round out
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 07:09   #197
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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You are aware of the concept of ship stacking / how the other de fleet types would act as flak (same class spam ships)
if You are playing for ally you would build hulls 1 anti de or if you are a fort player build wyvern.

You would make yourself hard to roid when you do get inc.

Tbh I prefered M0rph's stats to the current ones.
Im going to sit this round out
I think Harpies better either way, so you have 3 DE fleets, but i guess you're more explaining the game to Butcher in general.
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 08:27   #198
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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How can a fr planet roid a terran de planet? You'd have to team up 3 or more planets prolly.
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=8kozt8ynae1jbha

Like this.

Xans only ever have to build fireblades to attack with Fr, etd team ups cover all other eventualitys. Also since you are attacking into De based forts they wont have fi or Bs ingal which can stop your Fr attacks and even if they did defend with Fi wraiths fire before everything except banshee.

So i ask you how are De forts Viable when Fireblades are that effective. Give my calc doesnt factor in value/size/xp which only makes the calc better for the Xan since Value only HURTS the terran side of the calc. This is by the way ONE Xan attacking 1 Ter De planet not counting fakes and or team ups. ALSO Banshee do fire before Ter and Zik De meaning that you would also have to factor in the Banshee fakes Along with Possible Defender Fakes as well because lets face it any compentant Etd player thats in a fr/fi Alliance is going to Cov op Fi pods to team with the Xans Fi.
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 08:33   #199
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Wow that calc is so stupid. You honestly think xans will invest half their value in an anti de ST ship
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Unread 9 Jan 2015, 08:35   #200
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I invite xans to spend all that res on anti de and then get farmed by fi and co all round
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