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24 Jan 2012, 13:45
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#1
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Salvage for stealing
Please change the mechanism for salvage from stealing. Instead of awarding salvage for the abandoned ships, award salvage for the stolen ships. I know it doesn't make sense from an in-context perspective, since the stolen ships aren't the ones that are lost, but it fixes a rather large balancing issue with EMP. Salvage for lost ships is not shared between fleets. When a Cath hugs an entire fleet for a Zik to steal, the Cath gets nothing and the Zik gets value from ships and all of the salvage. Fairly dumb.
P.S. Anyone planning to suggest EMP salvage, please do so in another thread, so I can mock you there, rather than risk derailing this thread.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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24 Jan 2012, 13:49
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#2
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Non directed and witty
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: #ascendancy
Posts: 814
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Re: Salvage for stealing
Agreed.
Why should a cath(or other emp'r) have to do all the work, eg emp it all for a stealer to get EVERYTHING for it.
Currently a cath can fully ground to defend someone, at most if the def is stealers what you will get is a share of 300 XP.
Great...
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CATHAAAAAARGH
I've won 4 rounds.
I'm kinda a big deal.
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24 Jan 2012, 14:13
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#3
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: Salvage for stealing
Worth testing In my opinion
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Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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24 Jan 2012, 16:13
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#4
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Planetarion Forum Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,289
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Re: Salvage for stealing
Seems reasonable
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Romans 10:9-10
#strategy
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25 Jan 2012, 22:07
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#5
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Old Skool
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 278
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Re: Salvage for stealing
or maybe there should be a reasonable downside by being cath for once - i.e want salvage - donīt go cath
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25 Jan 2012, 23:21
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#6
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Finally retired
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 788
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Re: Salvage for stealing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killeah
or maybe there should be a reasonable downside by being cath for once - i.e want salvage - donīt go cath
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EMP isn't enough of a reasonable downside allready?
__________________
don't be an arse, join [TiT]
In the absence of the good old TiT alliance, look me up in VGN
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26 Jan 2012, 00:57
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#7
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Old Skool
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 278
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Re: Salvage for stealing
by far balanced out by general race bonusses and above average shipstats.
I could be inclined to agree, if remove 40% salv bonus - reduce overall emp eff.
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26 Jan 2012, 16:04
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#8
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Planetarion Forum Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,289
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Re: Salvage for stealing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence
EMP isn't enough of a reasonable downside allready?
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No I don't think so, EMP can be both a blessing and a curse, it really comes down to the efficiency levels in any given round.
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Romans 10:9-10
#strategy
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26 Jan 2012, 17:12
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#9
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Salvage for stealing
Cathaaaargh.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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27 Sep 2012, 07:18
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#10
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Salvage for stealing
Bump
Honestly looking at this as it does help Cath to some extent. I'm sure all the Ziks will whine but they can't have everything. Will mean extensive tweaking of the combat engine though (which ships died during stealing, which were killed normally etc so some thought required
Edit:
Also renders the recent def cap pretty meaningless. Should probably have done this first instead. Sorry
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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28 Sep 2012, 20:34
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#11
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semi-retired
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: oregon
Posts: 69
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Re: Salvage for stealing
I disagree with the sharing idea. Zik (and etd to some extent) have a hard enough time already recovering with the recent (stupid) cap and having even less salvage and worse ratios of m/c/e (assuming salvage based on attackers fleet) just make it that much harder to continue to be useful to your gal/alliance/etc.
However a small additional salvage based on the attackers fleet and awarded to emp when ship are stolen is a pretty decent idea.
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r4: 61.24.2 r5: 5.9.2 r6: 26.22.7 r7: 9.20.???? r8: 44:10:3 r9: 10.9.6 r9.5: 34.4.1 r42: 8.6.8 r43: 10.4.7 r44: 2.8.2 r45: 6.2.8 r46: r47:7.6.3 r48:2.5.7 r49:2.6.8 r50:4.5.4 r51: r52: r53: r54: stupidly still playing
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28 Sep 2012, 21:09
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#12
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Salvage for stealing
Trading has almost no impact. Say you steal a bunch of Wyverns and get 1.11m metal, 1m crystal and 1m eonium. You want to convert that back into Pirates. If the ratios in which you got salvage were perfect, you could afford 3141 Pirate: 3.11m resources / 990 resources per pirate. Alas, alack, you need to trade, because there's too much metal and not enough eonium.
If you trade 102737 metal for eonium and 3706 metal for crystal using the gal or ally funds, you can afford exactly 3136 Pirate, with 37 metal to spare. Those trades cost a 5323 resources, a whopping 0.17% of the original salvage.
Even if you used the universal fund, you can get 3111 Pirates after trading, which would cost you 29617 resources, 0.95% of the orginal salvage.
So, no.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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28 Sep 2012, 21:22
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: Salvage for stealing
Why not just have stealing go back to the way it was, and limit value gains for people inside the t100. Zik is hard enough anyone, unless your cheating like 90% of the t50 ziks do, but thats another issue entirely.
One of the things you can do now to really mess up a zik player if to build a fleet of ships that no zik can ever use and suicide them onto a top zik and he'll lose most of this ships and steal something that he doesnt need, and his salvage from the steal will be almost zero, and he'll only be able to rebuild about 1/10 of what he just lost stealing ship.
This is stupid if you can get away with a "free steal" that isn't a donation or farming why wouldnt you. Value steals have always been around but if they happen on defense you should get the salvage that you derserve. Besides with the exception of the past 2 rounds in which zik have had very good attacking stats zik never have a good fleet in which to attack with unless they a) have large team ups b) get real early steals of large amounts of emp or high init kill.
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R50-55 Faceless
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28 Sep 2012, 23:12
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#14
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semi-retired
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: oregon
Posts: 69
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Re: Salvage for stealing
Trading has an additional negative impact that adds up along with all the other negatives already placed on stealing as of this round.
Here's an example brep from this round, 30981 pirates "lost"
Metal Crystal Eonium
2,041,012 2,385,412 3,010,903
Report of Ships Stolen by the seriously i mean it fighting at x.x.x
Ship Stolen
Tycoon 6733
Guardian 13771
Baliff 316
I only received that much salvage because I bulked up the def fleet to get as close to the 20% max gain as I could and because I was not anywhere near a top planet (t300ish at the time). If you just send the anti-whatever required your salvage is significantly less than the max 20% possible value gain for almost every player.
That "traded" fleet made my def fleet mostly useless to my alliance for a few days.
The significant salvage given to steals is necessary if you want the stealing ships to die. If this was pre-pax rules would you still be complaining?
Note: I asked if that messed up m/c/e ratio, when compared to the the cost of pirates was correct and never received a response from support.
Tia's point of suicide is well warranted. Going back to the way it was (assuming still pax rules or even pre-pax) and limiting value gain within certain rankings is a much better way of handling donations.
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r4: 61.24.2 r5: 5.9.2 r6: 26.22.7 r7: 9.20.???? r8: 44:10:3 r9: 10.9.6 r9.5: 34.4.1 r42: 8.6.8 r43: 10.4.7 r44: 2.8.2 r45: 6.2.8 r46: r47:7.6.3 r48:2.5.7 r49:2.6.8 r50:4.5.4 r51: r52: r53: r54: stupidly still playing
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28 Sep 2012, 23:35
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#15
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Salvage for stealing
That has nothing to do with trading, though, which was the only point of your post that I took issue with. I realize trading costs you an additional 0.17-0.95% of any salvage gained, but it has always been that way, and compared to the impact of the changes made to the salvage allocation rules is hardly even worth the 15 minutes we've spent discussing it.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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29 Sep 2012, 10:24
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#16
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ToF
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 607
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Re: Salvage for stealing
the problem with the whole zik salvage thing is salvage donations. its extremely hard to prove someone is donating salvage and its extremely easy to do. sadly, as people will cheat to win this dying online game, game mechanics have to combat this for those that try and win honestly.
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[19:10] <coffee-> dont worry about Reincarnate he is an angry man
R1 - 9 none | R10.5 - 13 [ToF] | R14 [Reunion] | R15-17 [Subh] | R18 - 36 PA vacation | R37 [Evo] | R38 [NFI] | R39 & 40 [ToF] | R41 [Omega] | R42 - 47 [ToF][HC]
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29 Sep 2012, 11:52
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 957
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Re: Salvage for stealing
In any game where Player A can benefit from Player B, giving him and edge against player C, there will be cheating. That's not a problem with Zik; it's a problem with any race. You can farm roids, farm salvage, or have someone create a defense planet with no intent of really playing (though it's up for debate whether or not that doesn't constitute as 'really playing').
There is no easy fix to that, it's inherent to Planetarion's design. This change should be made to make it easier to balance the races. As with Cath, it is easier to make Zik too strong or too weak, this change should make it harder for Zik to be overpowered (and for value planets to 'snowball').
Though whether or not it should be priority, I don't think its effect will be that big.
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1 Oct 2012, 11:45
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#18
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ToF
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 607
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Re: Salvage for stealing
what you say is true patrikc however, with the former salvage + value gain from stealing, it gave an extremely easy way to gain a lot of value.
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[19:10] <coffee-> dont worry about Reincarnate he is an angry man
R1 - 9 none | R10.5 - 13 [ToF] | R14 [Reunion] | R15-17 [Subh] | R18 - 36 PA vacation | R37 [Evo] | R38 [NFI] | R39 & 40 [ToF] | R41 [Omega] | R42 - 47 [ToF][HC]
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1 Oct 2012, 14:43
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#19
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Salvage for stealing
Considering how much trouble it causes, I'd suggest a ceiling on salvage that ensures that you can't ever get more salvage than your losses. I think(?) this has already been implemented.
However, such a ceiling makes it redundant to reduce salvage in any other way, and such reductions may have undesirable consequences too.
Specifically, reducing salvage rates for big planets makes it very hard for top planets to defend their incs from lemming runs, because they'll almost always suffer some losses. I kept an eye on Benneh's incs this round and they were pretty ridiculous. He would've lost value even if the attacker lost twice or thrice times as much as he did.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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4 Oct 2012, 22:28
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#20
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Over the moon
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Deeeeenmark
Posts: 547
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Re: Salvage for stealing
I don't know what you did to salvage, but it is truly ****ed. You have bcalcs where it's 800k vs 3 mill value losses before salvage, and the def will still go down 500k.. It's beyond stupid and you're actually praying for people NOT to crash.
I can see "emp" salvage being useful, but you'd need stats that accommodate it. It wouldn't be a good thing if you could send out widows against BS inc or vipers against etd FR inc just for the salvage without ever risking getting shot at. I guess emp vs emp would be retarded then too. Yeah, actually let's not have salvage for emp'ing anything, let's just have proper ****ing salvage like in the late 20's early 30's.
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Golan - Ascendancy
Planets.
Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)
Those damn emp races..
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4 Oct 2012, 23:27
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#21
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Salvage for stealing
I'm still seeing salvage scaling by score/value. Compare:
1m/1m defender: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=lfx4j65u428497e
1k/1k defender: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=22kqchammxyecuk
It was my understanding this would be removed?
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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5 Oct 2012, 00:06
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#22
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Salvage for stealing
Yeah; I forgot to remove it on the calc. The combat engine is fine.
I've had a fairly busy week but, as I hope to not be working the whole weekend, I will choose which of the 3-4 sets of stats has been submitted to go with, and get beta rolling.
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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5 Oct 2012, 00:09
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#23
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Salvage for stealing
K. Thanks.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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10 Oct 2012, 23:10
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Rutland
Posts: 51
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Re: Salvage for stealing
20% is still a bit tight for zik. I suggest 30%.
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14 Oct 2012, 20:54
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#25
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Salvage for stealing
changed this in the combat engine; "just" need to change the bcalc to reflect this. will announce it shortly but you read it here first!
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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14 Oct 2012, 21:17
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#26
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Salvage for stealing
They don't share the same code?
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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16 Oct 2012, 18:30
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#27
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Salvage for stealing
Bcalc updated
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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