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9 Dec 2015, 20:24
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#1
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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BB stats r65(again)
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RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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9 Dec 2015, 20:50
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#2
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Wizard
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The Great White North eh!
Posts: 102
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
You know they will never use your stats because thats not how they play favorites.
Bravo for keeping on trying but its a waste.
Lop sided BS stats is the way of PA.
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I got roids......but I'm not going to share them with you!!
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10 Dec 2015, 00:17
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Fleet matchups:
Ter Fr Can not Roid other Terrans Solo
Ter Fr Maybe can roid Cath but 2x targeted at T1 with 160% eff
Ter Fr Can not roid Xan Pulsar same init, def always wins
Ter Fr Can Not roid Zik http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=76uf81r61mm42bt
Ter Fr Can not roid Etd http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=3ncoptxx47aqfdy
Ter Bs Can not roid Terran unless 1 sided fleet http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=01b98qwl3jgvf3w
Ter Bs CAN roid Cath T1 is 145-155
Ter Bs Can not roid Xan
Ter Bs Can not Roid Zik http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=80f52fc27n6sekb
Ter Bs Can not roid Etd http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=krupbjzimnk4dpd
To sum up, Ter can ONLY roid Cath solo.
Cath
Cath Co Can roid Ter http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=7iiw02crosbhx5r
Cath Co Can roid Cath
Cath Co can roid Xan Fi, but not Xan fr/de http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=tjstpzmsseozm0k
Cath Co Can NOT roid Zik http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=enojdiz60lf23t1
Cath Co Can Roid Etd Co but not De http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=486tigw9b9socn2
Cath De Can not Roid Ter
Cath De Can Not roid Cath http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=dtnvcoi1rkmd0sv
Cath De Can Roid Xan http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=5pa2gzpe45kdcvd
Cat De Can Not Roid Zik
Cath De Can Not roid Etd
Cath Cr Can NOT roid Ter
Cath Cr can Roid Cath
Cath Cr Can NOT roid Xan
Cath Cr Can NOT roid Zik http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=t0zprz61clqv618
Cath Cr Can NOT roid Etd
So lets sum it up. Cath Co Can roid most, Cat De cant roid anything, Cath Cr roids 50%.
Xan
Xan Fi Can Roid fi/co Terran, Can NOT roid Ter Fr http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=g9oa66edb0l3ear
Xan Fi Can NOT roid Cath
Xan Fi Can NOT roid Xan same init vs De and lower Eta vs Fr
Xan Fi can Roid Zik Co but bloody, can not roid Zik Fr
Xan Fi can NOT roid Etd http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=69tak8nnjbrgtw4
Xan Fr Can roid Fi based Ter, Can NOT roid Ter Bs/cr http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=180y9js5w1bd1hv
Xan Fr Can Roid Cath http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=43mfe3ka1nta6rr
Xan Fr Can Not roid Xan http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=p9ug1ljnjpuabsl
Xan Fr Can Not roid Zik http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=0gp97r2gjhzkl7o
Xan Fr Can Not roid Etd Co or Cr, but can roid etd Bs
Xan De Can NOT roid Ter http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=6lkv9dzs38t96lz
Xan De Can roid Cath Co, not Cath cr
Xan De Can Not roid Xan http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=pw85wf55eqryk9m
Xan De Can Not roid zik
Xan De Can Not roid Etd Co or Cr but can Etd Bs
To sum up. Xan Fi can only roid 2 races if they build a specific way, Xan fr can only roid Cath and Xan De can only roid Cath co or Ed Bs.
Zik
Zik Co can not roid Ter http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=xy69gzbh1ge5a95
Zik Co Can roid Cath http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=6po5rkdm51nptfm
Zik Co Can not roid Xan fi but can roid xan fr/de http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=ijet6jf0fmtn3za
Zik Co Can not roid Zik http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=uq81qmua1fmh0ot
Zik Co Can roid Etd http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=9tcyz3zxxy2xb59
Zik Fr Can not roid Ter http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=16u24sfcctvjv4l
Zik Fr Can roid Cath http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=0p75ugwzsec5kp6
Zik Fr Can Not roid Xan http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=hzqmypse6psaruh
Zik Fr Can Not roid Zik http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=uv13fme0ci8y4k1
Zik Fr Can roid Etd Co/Bs but not Etd Cr http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=rr6j8c9jo10l3o1
Zik Bs Can roid Ter http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=dh7p8ix56h929yl
Zik Bs Can Roid Cath http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=fsnmxg8c6pj7mc8
Zik Bs Can roid Xan Fr but not Xan De http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=fj1cns79b94a5hr
Zik Bs Can NOT roid Zik http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=g8v6efad1vw0qxj
Zik Bs Can Not roid Etd http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=rwlnwiw9fwszp9w
There are SO many thing that need to be fixed with Zik, Too much value gain, easy to Farm and Roids most fleets.
Etd
Etd Co Can roid Fi based Ter, but not Ter fr http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=g7jfbkaa5jj04ac
Etd Co Can Roid Cath http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=4yyaytjsbvc4lyj
Etd Co Can Roid Xan http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=xcpyesbu9f4ldsx
Etd Can not roid Zik
Etd Ca roid Etd http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=0hyy00iknsvl0d8
Etd De Can not roid Ter http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=l7gyd0lid4mb1dt
Etd De Can roid Cath Co. but not Cath Cr http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=19cg7qsmzqxrouo
Etd De Can Not roid Xan http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=uzhvd2nkzjv6um9
Etd De Can Not roid Zik http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=rbe3qyct484lnrc
Etd De Can Not roid Etd Co/Cr but can roid Etd Bs http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=xgjc24tuueklr3c
Etd Cr Can roid Ter Fr but not Ter Bs http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=wd1uf99k50dhraw
Etd Cr can roid Cath http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=i735t1wazijcdmi
Etd Cr Can roid Xan Fr but not Xan De http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=1a121upt6tc56gp
Etd Cr Can Roid Zik fr but not Xik Bs http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=o2gc5al6xvry3d6
Etd Cr Can Not Roid Etd http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=td9ojswzej6mjve
Etd Bs Can not roid Ter http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=nq4hoy4yuq9i35m
Etd Bs Can Roid Cath http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=fwr5rpnsa1ckes0
Etd Bs Can Not Roid Xan http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=psk27dw5uj4mq5a
Etd Bs Can Not roid Zik http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=3rnus1gsm6al2j6
Etd Bs Can Not roid Etd http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=r8drl9pcu479qaj
To Sum up, Etd Co can roid most, Etd De Cant roid anything except Cath Co, Etd Cr is very strong and etd Bs cant roid much.
Lots of things to Fix, I don't even want to get started with the Class Distribution. Too many Co, Fr
EDIT: Realized after finishing post that the Beta Server still has Zik no-loss stealing.
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R50-55 Faceless
Last edited by Tiamat101; 10 Dec 2015 at 00:24.
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10 Dec 2015, 07:04
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 297
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
After what happend last round, it seems slightly silly to still spend time on this.
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10 Dec 2015, 07:23
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#5
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh
After what happend last round, it seems slightly silly to still spend time on this.
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Enlight us please
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RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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10 Dec 2015, 07:58
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
No one will build war cr they will use bs or fi co. Which xan fr can't handle.
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R50-55 Faceless
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10 Dec 2015, 09:41
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#7
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Problems:
Xan has too many roiding fleets.
Xan effs are too high.
Too many ships across the board, making this set very defensive.
Zik Fr has no EMP teamup partner, which seems strange considering the number of roiding fleets.
Ter needs a Harpy.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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10 Dec 2015, 13:27
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#8
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Problems:
Xan has too many roiding fleets.
Xan effs are too high.
Too many ships across the board, making this set very defensive.
Zik Fr has no EMP teamup partner, which seems strange considering the number of roiding fleets.
Ter needs a Harpy.
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Tiamata says Xan are unplayable/too weak, i was considering buffing xan.
More ST ships, more ships per race.
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RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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10 Dec 2015, 12:08
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#9
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Leader Of The Gang
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 455
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
no.
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10 Dec 2015, 13:09
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#10
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Dictator
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 634
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
no.
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10 Dec 2015, 14:22
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#11
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Sigh where to begin ...
Only decent roiding fleets are xan frig and cath co/de .... etd bs is ok but I hate emp attack ships that dont get first cut in
any other roiding fleet has 1 fleet stoppers as defence options
No scope to fake meta classes
How much consideration was put into these stats and also explain how are these stats are fun?
__________________
Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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10 Dec 2015, 18:00
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#12
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
Sigh where to begin ...
Only decent roiding fleets are xan frig and cath co/de .... etd bs is ok but I hate emp attack ships that dont get first cut in
any other roiding fleet has 1 fleet stoppers as defence options
No scope to fake meta classes
How much consideration was put into these stats and also explain how are these stats are fun?
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Well the whole idea is to have teamups.... So yes, most races will be stopped without too much hassle unless you _team up_ on attacks.
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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10 Dec 2015, 18:12
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#13
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
Well the whole idea is to have teamups.... So yes, most races will be stopped without too much hassle unless you _team up_ on attacks.
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Humour me what alliance strategies do these present and what alliance HCs will likely pick as their strategy
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Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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10 Dec 2015, 20:32
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 707
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
Well the whole idea is to have teamups.... So yes, most races will be stopped without too much hassle unless you _team up_ on attacks.
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Most classes and races will be stopped without much hassle even with team ups.
Also forcing players to have partners through stats is just B A D. If you or your partner(s) are unavailable for attack/defence due to unknown curcumstances, then more than one will most likely have to idle fleets due to lack of potensial targets. This will particulary affect smaller tags big time.
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10 Dec 2015, 21:14
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#15
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoDD
Also forcing players to have partners through stats is just B A D. If you or your partner(s) are unavailable for attack/defence due to unknown curcumstances, then more than one will most likely have to idle fleets due to lack of potensial targets. This will particulary affect smaller tags big time.
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How are you gonna work out stats wich dosnt require team up partners?
Im just curious...
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RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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10 Dec 2015, 21:37
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
How are you gonna work out stats wich dosnt require team up partners?
Im just curious...
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That's not what he said. Your stats REQUIRES team up to even be effective, where as good stats Team ups are good but not required. Your set atm has too any holes and it has a lot to do with number of ships and the targeting on these ships. As i pointed out in #beta.
4 Fi ships
Fi targeted 8 times
8 Co ships
Co targeted 11 times
9 Fr ships
Fr Targeted 11 times
7 de ships
De targeted 10 times
7 Cr ships
Cr targeted 13 times
8 Bs ships
Bs targeted 9 times
1 Fi pod
2 Co pods
3 Fr pods
1 De pod
2 Cr pod
3 Bs pod
You try and tell me thats not sckewed in anyway.
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R50-55 Faceless
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12 Dec 2015, 17:28
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#17
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General (Adjective Army)
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Yorkshire, England.
Posts: 825
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
Well the whole idea is to have teamups.... So yes, most races will be stopped without too much hassle unless you _team up_ on attacks.
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As I mentioned a couple of rounds back, this is not a good principle on which to base stats.
__________________
Amnion (aka The Arcane Chas of Arcania) - Playing PA under those and other pseudonyms every genuine round since Round 2. Most recently (and insignificantly):
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17 Dec 2015, 08:38
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#18
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
So, ive fixed a lot of AC - DC.
Ive changed a few targetting(T1/T2).
By popular demand, damage has been lowered, armor has been raised with the goal to make calcs less red for the attacker.
Lets go again.
Basis of the calcs are 66% in attack fleets, 33% for defence.
Say you are Ter FR, then your attack fleet will cover 4/6 classes, and your defence fleet will have to cover the remaining two(FR/DE).
The attack fleet will be divided equaly over the ships in roidclass, the defence fleet will be divided equaly to cover what the attack fleet does not cover.
You can argue that the build in the calcs are not the most efficient ones, but please be my guest to suggest them in here so i can continue trying to balance.
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Fleet matchups:
Ter FR can not roid other terrans with hull3 solo. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=n6ls5hpzmd37r2a
Ter FR beat cat CR, struggle cat CO EMP. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=x0vifjnhwr5ehn5
Cat DE will more or less be the same calcs.
Ter FR can not roid xan pulsar(only anti FR) same init, red calcs.
Ter FR struggle to roid zik FR. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=aflto7icnssmasw
Ter FR can not roid zik BS. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=89j7dd9s0xxv3bt
Ter FR struggle roid etd CO. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=1v30av3nm4sjpvg
Ter FR can not roid etd CR. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=gk1tpv87gzc2wgr
Ter FR cannot to beat etd BS EMP. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=kq12tukonvom0iz
Ter FR can solo:
Cat CO/DE/CR
Ter FR struggle:
Zik FR
Etd CO
Cat CO
Ter FR cannot solo:
Ter
Xan
Zik BS
Etd CR/BS
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Please feel free to comment, and ill start preparing calcs for the other "fleet options"
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
Last edited by BloodyButcher; 17 Dec 2015 at 11:25.
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10 Dec 2015, 18:02
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#20
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Retired
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Back Porch Bar
Posts: 2,593
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Ugh, too many ships.
__________________
I'd rather be fishing.
Utterly useless since r3
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10 Dec 2015, 18:22
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#21
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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10 Dec 2015, 22:42
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#22
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
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but have you considered looking at stats like r14 and r42? etc
__________________
Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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11 Dec 2015, 01:08
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#23
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
but have you considered looking at stats like r14 and r42? etc
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ST stats? no.
We have tried that, and im sure most people disliked it.
THOUGH YOU COULD SOLO, so i guess theodd loved em.
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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11 Dec 2015, 01:39
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#24
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
ST stats? no.
We have tried that, and im sure most people disliked it.
THOUGH YOU COULD SOLO, so i guess theodd loved em.
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The roiding mechanisms .... im not saying going ST im saying get the basics right then add t2 and even t3 apon a good foundation.
also they are examples on how you can fake meta classes ie r42 zik cr and de you could easily fake de as cr on xan etc. (make stats fun as much as possible)
you've got a week or 2 to experiment make the most of the time trying shit out.
Please make the most of it.
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Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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11 Dec 2015, 03:38
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 157
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
You should be able to solo. The forced team-ups are just as bad for the game as every alliance fort avoiding for the first 800 ticks.
we have 200-350 players that are actually playing. Half of those players actually give a crap.
Tell me again why stats that require and promote waves of 4-5 fleets on 300 roid planets at tick 200 are good for the game?
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BOOM
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10 Dec 2015, 22:54
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#26
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
The r51 stats were not exactly a high point in stats making. I would recommend against using them as a template.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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10 Dec 2015, 23:42
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#27
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
The r51 stats were not exactly a high point in stats making. I would recommend against using them as a template.
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What is a good template then? And if you say R50, R52, or R64 im sure the whole strategy forum will go into a meltdown. Or if you mentione the worst stats ever, R60, i will go into a meltdown.
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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11 Dec 2015, 13:45
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#28
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
What is a good template then? And if you say R50, R52, or R64 im sure the whole strategy forum will go into a meltdown. Or if you mentione the worst stats ever, R60, i will go into a meltdown.
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Sure, r50 is a good template. I'm not saying that because I made them, I made the r51 stats and I have no problem slamming those.
I will repeat what Tia said: they are a template. That doesn't mean you should straight up copy the the r50 stats, or even use them as a starting point for new stats. I'm sayin that if you look at the high level design of the r50 stats and try to make something similar, you're well on you way to making something good. Go hybrid-ST/MT, don't make too many ships, give Zik reasonable teamups, ensure solo attack fleets are viable, don't make them too defensive.
From a cursory look, your stats don't have any of these properties. That doesn't mean your stats are bad, and unlike others, I'm not saying they are. I made some comments about aspects I think could and should be improved. If you choose to ignore constructive criticism, that's fine with me, I'm not particularly bothered. Just stop acting surprised when your stats aren't chosen if you once again ignore all feedback.
(Stay away from large cost discrepancies inside classes, though.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
Mz think R60 was a good set.
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And stop lying.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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11 Dec 2015, 00:15
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
R55 has pretty normal stats to take a template from. Not saying the stats were perfect but its a good template.
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11 Dec 2015, 00:46
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#30
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
R55 has pretty normal stats to take a template from. Not saying the stats were perfect but its a good template.
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R55 was pretty horific stats? iirc, it was one build wins it all.
1 ETD in top100, 10 XAN. Rest was ZIK/TER FR forting + CAT rank whores.
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RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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11 Dec 2015, 05:04
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#31
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Retired
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Back Porch Bar
Posts: 2,593
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Go Xan, land 2/3 fakes out of protection and play Sim-Tarion the rest of the round like I do? 
**** if I know what the answer is, but stop trying to re-invent the wheel on stats.
Everyone just go Cath and problem sovled...r2 Theives and Pirates...r3 Ghost/Warfrig/Cargoship...numbers win, EOD. At that point, stats are "balanced", and the "Alliance" or "block" issue is all that remains.
Play a round like that, then complain about stats. Or "politics". Or Tag size.
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I'd rather be fishing.
Utterly useless since r3
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11 Dec 2015, 14:43
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#32
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Well wouldnt it just make stats offensive by just lowering all damage and increasing all armor? 0_o
Everyone can land pretty cheap
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RainbowS
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11 Dec 2015, 15:12
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#33
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
I am not convinced that raising armor and lowering damage across the board (or vice versa) has much impact on the offensive or defensive nature of the stats. It's possible that it does, but I haven't seen a clear example of it in action. If anyone can be bothered, see what happens to bcalcs if you take a fairly balanced set of stats and globally modify their effs in either direction. I'd be interested in hearing the results!
Three things off the top of my head that definitely do affect it:
1) The amount of T2 and T3. The more T2 and T3 there is, the more of each planet's value fires at any specific class. At one end of the spectrum, if I have 1 ship that fires on all classes, then (ignoring T2/T3 inefficiencies for the moment) 100% of my value fires at each classes. On the other end, if I have 6 ships that each only have a T1, then only one sixth of my value fires on each class. The higher the fraction of my value fires at a/any class, the harder it is for that/any class to roid me/anyone, and the more value is needed to punch through. The more value is needed to roid people, the more defensive the stats are.
2) Number of ships. Ships need to be useful. If they aren't, there's no point having them. Usefulness comes in 2 categories: helps me roid people, stops people from roiding me (and there's overlap, of course). I don't usually care about having a lot of different methods of roiding people, because 3 small roiding fleets are less effective than 1 big OHKO fleet. That means most of my ships are defensive in nature. The more useful defensive ships there are, the fewer gaps there are in people's defense, the harder it is to roid them, the more defensive the stats are.
3) Number of interactions between classes. If each class fires at each class, then everyone can focus all their value in 1 class. If the stats are balanced, people will more or less pick each class equally, forcing everyone to defend against each class with an equal amount of value. If I have all my value in 1 class, then an attacker needs to kill a large proportion of my value to be able to land. However, since attackers also need to cover all classes from 1 class, what actually happens is that they can only have one sixth of their fleet firing at my 1 class. A single defense fleet does the rest. You want to send attacks such that your target needs more than 1 defense fleet to stop you, otherwise you're not being efficient. See also my '3 small roiding fleets vs 1 big one' comment above. This prevents people from roiding near their own value, increasing the defensiveness of the stats. I know this seems to contradict point 1. The difference is that here, all my value is in 1 class, whereas in point 1, it's spread among multiple classes.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 11 Dec 2015 at 15:21.
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11 Dec 2015, 19:39
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#34
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
BB Take r55 stats, take out init/dmg/armor/mcost/ccost/ecost/empres/guns and start from there.
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19 Dec 2015, 16:15
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#35
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Why wouldnt everyone play Bs/fr? They can roid all.
Why would anyone play Fi?, They can roid almost no one.
Why would anyone play zik in your stats they can't roid anyone, same with Etd. You are just going to have a round of 30% cath and 30% Ter. You really need to fix a lot of things, theses stats are not even in a place that can be critiqued because you haven't gotten them to a point where we can see what you want.
Please understand that you can't build a set of stats for alliance's, the alliances build their strats after the stats come out.
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19 Dec 2015, 21:29
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#36
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Retired
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Back Porch Bar
Posts: 2,593
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Xan DE is useless, why have it?
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I'd rather be fishing.
Utterly useless since r3
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19 Dec 2015, 22:06
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#37
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Why even have Xan? They are required to build atleast 40% value in fi, as they are the only ships that target Fr or De.
Xan fi is T1 by Defender/Black Widow/ Beetle all at init 1. Xan Fi has no team up in this stats infact there are only 5 fighters in the set. They actually can not attack anyone because of the number of ships.
They are a useless race, their fr is just meh the other 2 races do Fr better, and As Cochese said their De is wortless.
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20 Dec 2015, 11:44
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#38
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Retard0r
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,164
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
If Terran is so good and can only be soloed by xan, wouldn't quite a few people go xan just because they will have a lot of targets and because they can fake and in effect portray a lot more value than they actually have?
I call for more extensive beta testing of stats on a general notice. Cause what you can calc and what will actually be the case doesn't align all the time. Even good stats/templates lead to shit rounds for reasons unknown to statmakers, so are you all sure unconventional stats will be horrible? Can we have speedrounds like the xmas round inbetween rounds to actually run the set of stats that's most favoured for the upcoming round? Might show some dynamics that a normal betatest with 20 players won't show.
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-Chimpie
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Last edited by DrunkenViking; 20 Dec 2015 at 11:52.
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20 Dec 2015, 11:58
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#39
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Xan can't roid Terran not by any sense of the word.
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=9450mpgssy8n5s6
However you look at it, Xan CAN NOT roid Terran.
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20 Dec 2015, 12:16
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#40
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Retard0r
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,164
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=j4jjg733a8bxs56 << i would land that, especially if xp involved.
I just went off the list that bb said not to take too seriously, i know ****all about stats anyway, i just pick the one most unlikely to get roided by the majority of my enemies anyway.
Edit; and i don't look at soloing ability, so the entire discussion is meaningless to me personally.
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-Chimpie
* We do not exist *
* G-II * NoS * VsN * Ascendancy * Osiris * xVx * Ultores *
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20 Dec 2015, 12:57
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#41
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 707
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenViking
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atleast put a realistic BS fleet in the def.
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20 Dec 2015, 17:12
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#42
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Retired
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Back Porch Bar
Posts: 2,593
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but your calc isn't showing up right Tia...two fleets, the second one is hard to see. Also wondering why fi and fr together?
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I'd rather be fishing.
Utterly useless since r3
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20 Dec 2015, 18:09
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#43
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
The second fleet has been disabled. It's only in the calc to indicate the Xan's full fleet composition.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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20 Dec 2015, 19:34
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#44
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Retired
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Back Porch Bar
Posts: 2,593
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Thanks mz.
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I'd rather be fishing.
Utterly useless since r3
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20 Dec 2015, 20:11
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#45
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Its a eff/armor issue. Not a targetting issue.
BS/fireblade interaction is to be modify slightly.
Waiting on the last comments from a few people before doing it
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RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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20 Dec 2015, 22:07
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#46
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=u5w768g9dh4qdyf
Would you land that?
Same Calc just increased the value of each fleet 10x Sure it may be landable when the loss is only 70k, but if you make the calc 400 ticks later in the round do you land? No of course not.
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R50-55 Faceless
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20 Dec 2015, 22:38
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#47
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
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The FR damage on bs is very high atm compared to other rounds.
Any obvious imbalance will be adjusted, as i said allready.
The xan should be able to solo ter bs.
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RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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21 Dec 2015, 03:09
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#48
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 707
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
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Stop making unrealistic calcs... why does the Ter BS have equal ammount, while the xan Fr is setup with mostly anti BS?
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20 Dec 2015, 23:53
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#49
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Also that calc is a Fr attack based Terran, If you flip the values of Ter Bs and Ter Fr its much harder to land that. Unless you intend on reducing Ter Bs A/C to worthless or increase fireblade D/C to god level Xan Fr will never be able to roid Ter bs.
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R50-55 Faceless
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21 Dec 2015, 03:47
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#50
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: BB stats r65(again)
Ok then mr TheoDD what should the ratio be, of a Ter Fr that use bs to def fr/de.
And what ratio should a xan fr be?
Edit: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=va8biy38yudfumd
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