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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:26   #1
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The sun revolves around the Earth

And I will believe this until someone proves me wrong.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:27   #2
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Re: The sun revolves around the Earth

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Originally posted by Sub
And I will believe this until someone proves me wrong.
You are stupid
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:27   #3
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Re: The sun revolves around the Earth

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Originally posted by Sub
And I will believe this until someone proves me wrong.
You are correct.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:27   #4
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Is this the same Sub that was with WST last night?

And how did you get 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz' into your rank? I didn't think the field was that large.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:29   #5
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It does, if you define the earth as the rest frame. You then have to have all sorts of silly maths to explain the orbit of the sun though.

This is where Occam's Razor comes into play.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:29   #6
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Re: Re: The sun revolves around the Earth

Quote:
Originally posted by Ragnarak
You are stupid
If you're so smart, disprove my point!

Quote:
Originally posted by KaneED
Is this the same Sub that was with WST last night?

And how did you get 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz' into your rank? I didn't think the field was that large.
No, I'm the good one.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:29   #7
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Re: The sun revolves around the Earth

Quote:
Originally posted by Sub
And I will believe this until someone proves me wrong.
I reckon that the earth is round and the Sun isnt the same star every day. A new one is launched into the sky each day which goes across the diameter of the flat earth.

CLEARLY.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:30   #8
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There are no such things as stars (other than the sun). They are just lights a few hundred km away from the Earths surface.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:31   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
It does, if you define the earth as the rest frame. You then have to have all sorts of silly maths to explain the orbit of the sun though.

This is where Occam's Razor comes into play.
wouldn't this 'silly maths' make newton/kepler a tad upset?
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:32   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ragnarak
wouldn't this 'silly maths' make newton/kepler a tad upset?
Occam's Razor you goon
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:33   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ragnarak
wouldn't this 'silly maths' make newton/kepler a tad upset?
So far this thread isnt enough of a paradox to warrant the collapse of the known universe
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:35   #12
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Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
Occam's Razor you goon
when all things are equal, the simplest solution is most likely the correct one

i watched contact yesterday.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:43   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Idi
when all things are equal, the simplest solution is most likely the correct one

i watched contact yesterday.
That's a really terrible wording of it.

Bloody Jodie Foster.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:45   #14
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Quote:
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That's a really terrible wording of it.

Bloody Jodie Foster.
Proper one, complete with a comic strip
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:47   #15
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I feel we are moving offtopic somewhat.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:48   #16
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Re: Re: The sun revolves around the Earth

Quote:
Originally posted by CjC
I reckon that the earth is round and the Sun isnt the same star every day. A new one is launched into the sky each day which goes across the diameter of the flat earth.

CLEARLY.
lo Xenophanes of Colophon.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:54   #17
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Exclamation

The Earth revolves around Pavarotti.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 18:54   #18
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Re: The sun revolves around the Earth

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Originally posted by Sub
And I will believe this until someone proves me wrong.
Everything is relative...
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 19:01   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
Occam's Razor you goon
start off with the assumption that i'm stupid

doesn't the sun rotates around the earth "theory" disagree with newton/kepler?


is it actually possible to 'complicate' matters so that it obeys them and still works?

if you can't complicate them enough with the 'silly maths' to obey them then doesn't that mean Occams Razor is irrelevant

or is the fact that we believe the basis of newtons/keplers equations the 'simple solution' itself?

i'm rambling but you always pull occams razor out of the bag and i still don't think i understand it properly :/

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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 19:03   #20
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Re: Re: The sun revolves around the Earth

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Originally posted by Structural Integrity
Everything is relative...
Relativity isn't.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 19:04   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ragnarak
or is the fact that we believe the basis of newtons/keplers equations the 'simple solution' itself?
Well, we don't actually (General Relativity and all), but at the time they were the simplest explanation.

Physics is, and always will be, an approximation. That's the nature of empiricism.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 19:08   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
Well, we don't actually
i didn't say we agreed with them in their entirety but the basis of them

replace where i said "newton/kepler" with "relativistically compensated newton/kepler" if that's any better

or if not whichever theory you consider to be the accepted one that currently models celestial mechanics

anyway back to you explaining how Occam's Razor is relevant here.... :)
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 19:09   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ragnarak
NEWTON ISNT RIGHT

EINSTEIN ISNT RIGHT

THEY WERE JUST THE 'SIMPLEST' APPROXIMATIONS
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 19:15   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
NEWTON ISNT RIGHT

EINSTEIN ISNT RIGHT

THEY WERE JUST THE 'SIMPLEST' APPROXIMATIONS
Is it not the case that the persons you refer to i.e Newton and Einstien are ever so slightly dead? Therefore your statement should say.

NEWTON WASN'T RIGHT

EINSTEIN WASN'T RIGHT

Or have they been cloned, reincarnated or otherwise brought back to life?
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 19:20   #25
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Newton, etc being shorthand for 'Newtonian Theory'
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 19:34   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
NEWTON ISNT RIGHT

EINSTEIN ISNT RIGHT

THEY WERE JUST THE 'SIMPLEST' APPROXIMATIONS
yes

i thought we had established that


what i'm asking is what exactly is this 'silly maths' that makes a geo-centric solar system work?

and mustn't it at least 'almost' agree with newton/kepler as they were as you said, simple approximations

ie. it can't completely disagree with newton/kepler

or can it?
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 19:52   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ragnarak
or can it?
Given a geocentric solar system has to use 'epicycles' (an orbit which looks kind of like a spirograph), I think it does disagree somewhat.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 19:58   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
Given a geocentric solar system has to use 'epicycles' (an orbit which looks kind of like a spirograph), I think it does disagree somewhat.
that is kinda my point

when i said "it can't completely disagree with newton/kepler" i meant "it's not allowed to completely disagree with newton/kepler as for all their innaccuracies they are still valid approximations"

we have one theory we know is 'roughly' correct

can another theory that disagrees with the first still be a valid approximation to what is observed?

i don't see how but maybe you do
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 20:06   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ragnarak
can another theory that disagrees with the first still be a valid approximation to what is observed?
It disagrees in metaphysical reality rather than prediction; as long as it gets the same result out in terms of orbits, it can be as complicated as you like. Hence Occam's Razor.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 20:09   #30
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Occam's Razor you goon
"When the truth is too hard to handle, take the easiest option".

Sub is correct, you are all just victims of a communist plot dating back several centuries.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 20:15   #31
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"When the truth is too hard to handle, take the easiest option".

Sub is correct, you are all just victims of a communist plot dating back several centuries.
I thought it was the illuminated ones
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 20:16   #32
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It disagrees in metaphysical reality rather than prediction; as long as it gets the same result out in terms of orbits, it can be as complicated as you like. Hence Occam's Razor.
does a geocentric solar system give the same results regarding orbits though?

does it actually 'work'? is it possible to come up with a working (albeit extremely complicated) model that agrees in prediction with a helio-centric solar system?

does making it work involve inventing a whole new system of celestial mechanics to go along with it? or will it work in conjucture with what we accept at the moment?

i understand why you said 'occams razor' now and i know using the word 'impossible' is stupid (so won't) but doesn't a theory have to at least exist before occam's razor discounts it?
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 20:26   #33
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does it actually 'work'? is it possible to come up with a working (albeit extremely complicated) model that agrees in prediction with a helio-centric solar system?
I mentioned this earlier... 'epicycles'. You won't get an elliptical orbit, or anything like it, but if you expect it you're just PREJUDICED.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 20:28   #34
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Is this the same Sub that was with WST last night?

And how did you get 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz' into your rank? I didn't think the field was that large.
Used to be possible to get it longer, after improving the html a little. Just checked, seems they changed it...
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 20:31   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ragnarak
does a geocentric solar system give the same results regarding orbits though?

does it actually 'work'? is it possible to come up with a working (albeit extremely complicated) model that agrees in prediction with a helio-centric solar system?

does making it work involve inventing a whole new system of celestial mechanics to go along with it? or will it work in conjucture with what we accept at the moment?

i understand why you said 'occams razor' now and i know using the word 'impossible' is stupid (so won't) but doesn't a theory have to at least exist before occam's razor discounts it?
without gravity (and newton's three laws of motion), there is no reason why celestial objects can't take whatever damn route they want through the heavens.

So yes, geocentric works. It's just that with geocentric you get all kinds of crazy curlicues and so on.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 20:31   #36
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Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
I mentioned this earlier... 'epicycles'. You won't get an elliptical orbit, or anything like it, but if you expect it you're just PREJUDICED.
ok

the orbit shape is irrelevant isn't it?

the predictions we're concerned with are more along the lines of "if i look at this piece of sky here at this time i will see this" aren't they?

do both theories 'work' in the sense that they agree with each other on this prediction?
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 20:33   #37
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Originally posted by acropolis
without gravity (and newton's three laws of motion), there is no reason why celestial objects can't take whatever damn route they want through the heavens.

So yes, geocentric works. It's just that with geocentric you get all kinds of crazy curlicues and so on.
that's why i said, "does making it work involve inventing a whole new system of celestial mechanics to go along with it?"

so you're saying we'd forget about newton and come up with a new theory that gives the same predictions as newton but allows the orbit path to be different?
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 20:33   #38
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do both theories 'work' in the sense that they agree with each other on this prediction?
I believe that the Moon is being pulled through the sky by a giant beetle, which gradually eats and regurgitates it in a cycle lasting about 30 days.

That agrees with predictions, doesn't it?
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 20:38   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
I believe that the Moon is being pulled through the sky by a giant beetle, which gradually eats and regurgitates it in a cycle lasting about 30 days.

That agrees with predictions, doesn't it?
yes

so a geocentric system would still give the same predictions as a kepler/newton based system?

the position of the sun in the epicycle system relative to the earth at a certain time would be the same as that in the kepler system?
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 20:45   #40
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Originally posted by Ragnarak
so a geocentric system would still give the same predictions as a kepler/newton based system?

the position of the sun in the epicycle system relative to the earth at a certain time would be the same as that in the kepler system?
Theres no inherent predictions of a geocentric or helioentric model. It all depends on the numbers you put in.

If you want to make it reach the same predictions, you can.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 20:50   #41
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Sub is correct, you are all just victims of a communist plot dating back several centuries.
Do you know what's rich? They managed to convince these people that light is both a particle, and a wave! And they call me stupid.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 20:52   #42
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Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
Theres no inherent predictions of a geocentric or helioentric model. It all depends on the numbers you put in.

If you want to make it reach the same predictions, you can.
that feels like cheating tho :/

by 'numbers' i'm assuming you mean things such as G, g, Mass of Earth, Mass of Sun, radius of orbit, etc

aren't some (all?) of those numbers required to be a specific value so that other phenomena work as we predict eg. radiation from sun, throwing a javelin, etc

wouldn't making the numbers what you needed to be also require you altering just about everything in physics?
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 20:54   #43
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wouldn't making the numbers what you needed to be also require you altering just about everything in physics?
Different model, sweety.

You might as well say that our current model involved altering all the numbers from the old model.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 20:58   #44
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Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
Different model, sweety.
a heliocentric model has a set of accepted values that gives a prediction close to what is observed

a geocentric model has a set of values that gives a prediction close to what is observed

the 'set of values' are not the same for both models
so a geocentric model would also involve everything else being different or working by a different model?
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 20:59   #45
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Probably only a differing understanding of gravity, although it's hard to see how they would hold such inconsistent views about the gravitational force and, say, electrostatics.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 21:04   #46
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 21:06   #47
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Probably only a differing understanding of gravity, although it's hard to see how they would hold such inconsistent views about the gravitational force and, say, electrostatics.
think we've reached the same conclusion now

probably
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 21:11   #48
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What is gravity?
The effect that we derive from the action of one property of a material, which we measure and refer to as mass, on the 'mass' of another object.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 21:32   #49
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Bunga has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Another way to put it is the effect mass has on other mass.
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Unread 20 Feb 2003, 21:33   #50
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Another way to put it is the effect mass has on other mass.
That's imprecise.
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